TheShopKeeper: Very interesting topic and good contributions from everyone:

Can anyone please explain this verses of Matthew 28:18-20, where Jesus talked about the great commission:
18. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
20. Teaching them to observe all things that i have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age, Amen.

Jesus mentioned, the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Why is it difficult for some christians to believe in the Trinity, although it wasn't specified anywhere in the bible.
Bible scholars please help.
Thanks.

I tell you the truth, you are not far from the kingdom of God. Trinity is not difficult at all. Very simple when you comprehend it. It is not explicitly mentioned as a word in the bible. It's just a terminology given by men just to understand the concept. That all. It's not a false teaching!

okeyxyz: How is Father, Son & Holy_Spirit not trinity?? That's clearly three entities!!

Hmmm,my take is there's only one person/entity operating/manifesting in three distinctive forms/names.because our Lord Jesus Christ is the Father...And His name will be called..Eternal Father.. Ish9:6. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me..John14:11).He(Jesus Christ) is also the Spirit..the last Adam became a life-giving spirit....1Cor15:45, But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,he does not belong to Him.. Roms8:9b)

Goshen360:

I tell you the truth, you are not far from the kingdom of God. Trinity is not difficult at all. Very simple when you comprehend it. It is not explicitly mentioned as a word in the bible. It's just a terminology given by men just to understand the concept. That all. It's not a false teaching!

Why then are the three (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) mentioned together in the verse Matthew 28:19?

This verse in no way supports the trinity.

"But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." (2 Cor.1:21-22)

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1 Peter 1:2)

It is because of the fact that the three, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, play a very important role in the conversion of unrighteous person to become a disciple of Christ through baptism in the name of Christ for the remission of sins.

^^^

Another point to consider is that.....Why does Jesus himself make this clear distinction should they NOT be different from each other? See my brother, I was once into this kind of confusion until I stayed still with the Holy Spirit and I was taught. Abeg, no do gra-gra with the Holy Spirit . Jesus could have said, In the name of the father and the Son only......should the Holy Spirit not be a distinct being.

Until you answer the question of the possibility of God (Spirit) being able to have Spirit/spirit, then you will still not see the Holy Spirit as a distinct being which Jesus also referred to.

Now answer the kweshion, CAN A SPIRIT HAVE/POSSESS A SPIRIT?

Na wa o

Goshen360: You don't have to believe in the TRINITY to be a Christian but there is nothing wrong with the teaching "Trinity". It's just the way it is being explained and/or taught. The word trinity does NOT occur in the bible. It is a terminology given to three beings that is called God, distinct from one another but still function as ONE in unity. Just like I was discussing in a thread and a friend of mine called heaven, the abode place of God "heaven 1.0". You see, that word is not in the bible but he only use it to "explain" his point for the purpose of understanding. The same way, trinity is NOT in the bible but a terminology adopted (I guess) to explain the inseparable unity of the Godhead because,

The father is called God plus other personal names.

Jesus is called God plus other personal names

The Holy Spirit is called God plus other personal names

can you show us the part of the bible that called the holy spirit God?

Please show us so that the word "liar" will not stick with you.

Goshen360: You don't have to believe in the TRINITY to be a Christian but there is nothing wrong with the teaching "Trinity". It's just the way it is being explained and/or taught. The word trinity does NOT occur in the bible. It is a terminology given to three beings that is called God, distinct from one another but still function as ONE in unity. Just like I was discussing in a thread and a friend of mine called heaven, the abode place of God "heaven 1.0". You see, that word is not in the bible but he only use it to "explain" his point for the purpose of understanding. The same way, trinity is NOT in the bible but a terminology adopted (I guess) to explain the inseparable unity of the Godhead because,

The father is called God plus other personal names.

Jesus is called God plus other personal names

The Holy Spirit is called God plus other personal names

My brother, Salvation is impossible without the foundation of the Trinity. Even without a good intellectual appreciation of the concept, it's impossible for a believer to even question that God is a Trinity. I had no understanding of the Trinity that made any kind of sense until last year. But it was foundational to my faith no less. Please be clear on this.

Goshen360:

It doesn't have to make sense my sister. With God, there is he that scatters BUT increase. When I saw this scriptures, it doesn't make sense to me. And there is he that withholds but tends to poverty. Lord! how does this make any sense? If I scatter, I increase, meaning if I minus (that is with God or in God's kind of maths or equation), I increase but if I add or withhold, I decrease.....it doesn't make any sense to me. Let us stop using "human sense" to explain things of the Spirit.

Yes, 1 + 1 + 1 we know is three but it is one in/as UNITY (as the case in/with the Godhead). This is where the case of unity came from, different in entity but one as/in Unity, just like a husband and a wife are two separate beings but one as unity.

Just my advice.

i can still recall reading a post where you express your desire of being a "pastor" one day, if that is true then i think i know where your problem is coming from.

Meanwhile, just show us where the bible called the holy spirit "God"

thank you.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

I think you are the one making so much issue out of this Trinity stuff. I/Trinity doesn't mean we should worship 3 Gods, it simply calls Three distinct being "God" and recognizes the father as the father of all. Jesus said, you believe in God, believe also in me. When you said Peter believed in ONE God, not 3. That is correct but Peter also believed in Jesus Christ. This is not to mean Jesus is NOT God that is distinct from the Father. What's wrong in your son having your lastname e.g say Frosbel and you also bearing Frosbel as your lastname and the same lastname your father bears. God is not a name that belongs to one being: The father is called God in the bible, the son is called God and so is the Holy Spirit called God, then what is the problem with that?

i really want to learn from you were in the bible that the holy spirit is called "God".

Will you ever say what the bible does not teach?

Goshen360:

My understanding is that, there is ONE GOD who is the father of all but the son is also called God and the Holy Spirit is also called God. The context tells the distinction. ~ You want scriptures ~

^^^

that last statment is a lie.

There is no where in the bible that the holy spirit is called a God.

okeyxyz: @Goshen360 has the best logic and fit in this matter.
@frosbel seems to be making deliberate efforts to ignore the stark obviousness of the trinity as referenced in the bible and of which @Goshen360 arguments best conforms with.
Why can't we acknowledge the trinity clearly cited in scriptures, even though you don't fully understand it? It's ok to say you don't fully understand than to turn a blind eye/conscience to the references all over the new-testament.

Clearly the new-testament talks about three distinct entities(Let's not call them persons now. I guess that's the contention), God the Father, who we all agree is not Jesus, then jesus himself who is "the son", then there is the Holy Spirit which(whom??) jesus categorically says would come after himself and by whose power and guidiance the apostles claim to be led and perform miracles. So we have The Father, Jesus and Holy-Spirit, each unique and different from the other. Why does @Frosbel & co try so hard to abolish the Holy-Spirit and cling only to Father & Son?

i think i know you,
you will defend any thing.

You, show were the holy spirit is called "God"

Goshen360: ^^^
If you are interpreting or translating the "Holy Spirit" as or to mean "God's spirit" (like a man having a spirit) how can a Spirit then have a spirit (for God is a Spirit)....if they are NOT distinct from one another?

error,
we have spirit person and holy spirit.

Spirit person power is called "spirit"

holy spirit is power of almighty God, since he is holy, holy, holy.

truthislight:

i can still recall reading a post where you express your desire of being a "pastor" one day, if that is true then i think i know where your problem is coming from.

Meanwhile, just show us where the bible called the holy spirit "God"

thank you.

truthislight:

i really want to learn from you were in the bible that the holy spirit is called "God".

Will you ever say what the bible does not teach?

truthislight: ^^^

that last statment is a lie.

There is no where in the bible that the holy spirit is called a God.

truthislight:

i think i know you,
you will defend any thing.

You, show were the holy spirit is called "God"

truthislight:

error,
we have spirit person and holy spirit.

Spirit person power is called "spirit"

holy spirit is power of almighty God, since he is holy, holy, holy.

My brother, see as you quote me plenty time just because you don't know where the Holy Spirit is called God. Na wha for you o. See am happy you said you want to learn and know. This is where am happy for you, whatever is a puzzle for you is NO puzzle for someone else in the Kingdom of God. I'm also happy your id says truthislight. You and I have engaged some time in the truth and reasoning the word of God. However, I will require your tithe and Apostolic offering to show you where the Holy Spirit is called God.....are you ready? If you are ready, take your tithe and Apostolic offerings in your hand and let's pray so our heavenly father to bless it before I receive it unto the Apostle's feet

And AFTER showing you, will it change your view and what will your view be AFTER I show you?

Ihedinobi:

My brother, Salvation is impossible without the foundation of the Trinity. Even without a good intellectual appreciation of the concept, it's impossible for a believer to even question that God is a Trinity. I had no understanding of the Trinity that made any kind of sense until last year. But it was foundational to my faith no less. Please be clear on this.

Wrong again.

The Trinity doctrine , which by the way false is not a pre-requisite for salvation.

Let us see how people got saved in the bible as opposed to Ihedinobi's method.

"if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9

Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.


So, whose method of salvation shall we choose, Ihedinobi's or God's .

You decide !!

okeyxyz: @Frosbel, If the Father sent his spirit after jesus, then his spirit came while he himself remained, therefore father & Spirit are distinct, correct? Just as he sent jesus but he himself remained? Unless you are saying the father himself came after jesus?

no, according to the trinity it was the father that entered Jesus after his baptism.

So also the father entered the disciples 120 of them and not his power i supposed?

So, the fire on their head was God since it was not his power?

See you trying to confuse someone when you are also confused..

okeyxyz: Simply put: The Holy-Spirit is a law/principle by which the father operates, by which Jesus also operated and by which "christian" are made. So, it is distinct as an artifact(not as a person) of god.

thank you

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

Well....I thought when you open a thread, you are or want to be open to other believer's view but it appears you already have a pre-conceived and concluded thoughts. One thing I have come to understand is that, being an apologetics does not argue God's word. It only presents the evidence and allows scripture to scripture "reasoning" especially among fellow believers.

Again and the last time.....I don't have strength for argument my brother. I ask you question again:

God is Spirit (John 4:24)......that is a Spirit being

How can a Spirit (God) have a spirit IF the Spirit of God is NOT different from God (who is a Spirit)?

When you answer the above question, then you will understand Genesis 1:2.....I have spent more than half of my entire bible study life studying Genesis and also started a commentary on it. By the Grace of God, I can split the book Genesis into smallest particles for understanding using scriptures to explain scriptures.

my friend stop lying,

you dont have strength but you want him/us to believe what you dont have strength to defend.

Why not ask that your person ghost spirit to give you strengt/open your eye to see scriptures that will convince us that "he spirit" is a person?

truthislight:

my friend stop lying,

you done strength but you him/us to belive what you do have strength to defend.

Why not ask that your person ghost spirit to give you strengt/open your eye to see scriptures that will convince us that "he spirit" is a person?

What exactly are you talking about? I don't understand you my brother. You said I should show you where the Holy Spirit is called God and then I told you to bring "all" tithe into the Apostle's feet. You didn't do that and now you are bragging..... Are you sure you still want the answer? Then do what I told you

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

"The simple truth is that God is a real person, in bodily form; and the Holy Spirit is truly the Spirit of God, a divine influence proceeding from the Father and also from the Son, as their power, energy, etc...The Bible never in any case calls the Holy Spirit a person, though it frequently does both the Father and Son" culled from your article up there.

Nobody is saying you should not have your own view about a church doctrine and traditions BUT when you are reasoning with other brethren, then you have to reason with their own view and balance with your view. In the case when it seems others are right, all you have to do is drop your view....maybe your view wasn't balanced in the first place.

Now, on the above highlight/embolden is where the problem is coming from. To me, it's like you took this man's article and just swallowed it raw....probably because you want to refute church tradition and some heresy. Now, my question still goes: If God is a Spirit.......How then can God have BODILY FORM, does a spirit have bodily form? and How can a Spirit have a spirit/Spirit? This is the question you need to answer. But when you AGREE that God has a BODILY FORM like ours and that God is a person, then you can use "logic" to say/conclude that God has a spirit/Spirit, which is NOT distinct from God and it will mean that God can be seen......But the scriptures declares, no man has seen God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)

did you say that Frosbel should reason with your own view?

That is the most absurd thing that i have hard in recent times.

Are you not suppose to present your view and he will present his all MUST be base on the scriptures?

You have fail to quote one scripture that said that the holy spirit is a person but you want him to carry your view as his and start reasoning with it.

Why not keep your views while he keep his and we allow the bible to speak?

Goshen360:

Oga mi, confused you ke! You be my boss for bible oo. How I go confuse my boss

I am trying to "reason" scripture with you.....I am trying to make you see that fact that, Spirit CANNOT have another spirit/Spirit (be it uppercase or lowercase -S). If Spirit cannot have spirit, it will therefore mean Holy Spirit is distinct from God who Jesus himself calls "Spirit". If Spirit cannot have spirit, the simple logic/reasoning here is that Holy Spirit is NOT God's spirit as in when God have a BODILY FORM but when you take God to have a BODILY form, then you will make the words of christ lies as per John 4:24 and then conclude that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from God but it's God's spirit.

Do you understand

you are trying to deceive him with your ideas that are not bible base.

Dont you know how to quote the bible again?

Cant you find where the bible said that the spirit is a person?

Do you wish to feed lies to others?

If it is not found in the bible it is a LIE.

And you are carrying it. (lies)

truthislight:

did you say that Frosbel should reason with your own view?

That is the most absurd thing that i have hard in recent times.

Are you not suppose to present your view and he will present his all MUST be base on the scriptures?

You have fail to quote one scripture that said that the holy spirit is a person but you want him to carry your view as his and start reasoning with it.

Why not keep your views while he keep his and we allow the bible to speak?

Bros, cool down o. E be like say you dey fight me ni? Abeg bros cool down. No be fight. So you don't believe me when I said I can show you where the Holy Spirit is called God? Okay, na you sabi o. What am asking brother frosbel is the possibility of God, who is a Spirit being able to possess another Spirit if the Holy Spirit is not distinct from God's spirit? If a Spirit cannot have spirit, then it means the Holy Spirit is distinct from God. Is this too hard for you to comprehend?

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

Do you want me to use the same scriptures you have being using to prove to you that the Holy Spirit is distinct from God the father? So you can understand? It took me many months with studying God's word with the help of the Holy Spirit to stay on this subject. I can show it to you with illusration that a Spirit cannot have spirit, if so, then the Holy Spirit is distinct and cannot be taken as the S/spirit of God should God have a bodily form.

NO you did not study the bible with holy spirit but with a ghost.

Dont use illustration to teach others the bible, quote the bible, the bible does not need your help, it can defend itself.

If you use illustration to teach them the bible and end up being wrong will you Give them eternal life?

If it is God that will give eternal life why not let God's word speak for itself so that God will be happy with the person for following his word?

Dont you know that teaching out of the bible is lawlessness?

frosbel:

Wrong again.

The Trinity doctrine , which by the way false is not a pre-requisite for salvation.

Let us see how people got saved in the bible as opposed to Ihedinobi's method.

"if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9

Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.


So, whose method of salvation shall we choose, Ihedinobi's or God's .

You decide !!

You want an argument, don't you? I will not accommodate you. I have kept reading your posts on these two threads touching on the Trinity and what I'm hearing is desire to justify your stand.

You declare that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, I warn you of blasphemy; immediately you start trying to show that you're not blaspheming against Him. I silently note that you are still very conscious of His Personality and declare as much in your protestations. I warn that questioning Jesus's Deity introduces a question to one's salvation and you begin a treatise into how a man gets saved. I ask how a mere man's death, even granted absolute moral purity, could satisfy God's Justice, you indicate ignorance of the relevance of the question which further casts doubt upon your salvation.

Now, you start a thread to insist that you stand no risk of losing your salvation regardless what your views on the Trinity are. Why do you feel the need to do so, I wonder? Is it perhaps because you are in question as to your salvation? It matters nothing what I say about it unless what I say is true.

First of all, let me assure you that moral purity aka goodness is impossible to everyone except God.

Second, I assure you that Jesus was morally pure, that is, good.

Third, Jesus had capacity to bear the moral burden of the whole world.

Fourth, given that God's Justice demands that it is the soul that sins that shall bear punishment, Jesus was in the legal position to answer for the full moral responsibility of the whole creation.

Finally, in and after taking the punishment for the world's sin, Jesus was able to fully, finally and forever destroy the cause, root and power of sin.

All the above is a brief expantiation of the Gospel. If you accept all the above as true, you accept that Jesus is God. That is the meaning of believing the Gospel without which no man may be saved.

I want you to get one thing straight: that a thing is difficult or impossible to understand does not mean that it is untrue. Or else, space science would be untrue. I also want to state emphatically that a pathological liar's declaration that the sun rose today does not mean that the sun actually did not rise. Therefore, it is not only unwise but absurd to throw out a doctrine, any doctrine, only because the Roman Catholic Church or any other organization holds it. Wisdom and the Bible demand that before any decision is taken regarding a doctrine, the doctrine must be rigorously tested against the Bible.

These are days abounding in deception. It is by means of these delusions that many shall fall away. Be careful to know that you are not one of them.

TheShopKeeper: Very interesting topic and good contributions from everyone:

Can anyone please explain this verses of Matthew 28:18-20, where Jesus talked about the great commission:
18. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
20. Teaching them to observe all things that i have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age, Amen.

Jesus mentioned, the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Why is it difficult for some christians to believe in the Trinity, although it wasn't specified anywhere in the bible.
Bible scholars please help.
Thanks.

it means that the strength that christians will use to do this work is the power of God = holy spirit.

Not that you will expect a literal person to help you in doing this work.

So, this straith is what you need/depend on though you will not see it.

God's power. Not by our own strength.

truthislight:

NO you did not study the bible with holy spirit but with a ghost.

Dont use illustration to teach others the bible, quote the bible, the bible does not need your help, it can defend itself.

If you use illustration to teach them the bible and end up being wrong will you Give them eternal life?

If it is God that will give eternal life why not let God's word speak for itself so that God will be happy with the person for following his word?

Dont you know that teaching out of the bible is lawlessness?

Well, I will give you scriptures when you calm down. I can sense that you are becoming rude in your communication with other. Let me kindly leave you alone for now until you are able to add Grace to the truth you claim to know for Grace and truth came by Jesus.

Goshen360:

My dear brother, all you have to do is cool down.....relax and come, let us reason together saith the Lord. I understand churches have confused many with how they teach trinity but it will be made plain by the reasoning the scripture and being open minded. Context is everything about scripture breakdown.

but you have not been quoting scriptures!

@Goshen360,

I have a simple question for you on this trinity dogma or doctrine as the case maybe.


Is father,son and holy spirit names or titles?

Ihedinobi:

You want an argument, don't you? I will not accommodate you. I have kept reading your posts on these two threads touching on the Trinity and what I'm hearing is desire to justify your stand.

You declare that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, I warn you of blasphemy; immediately you start trying to show that you're not blaspheming against Him. I silently note that you are still very conscious of His Personality and declare as much in your protestations. I warn that questioning Jesus's Deity introduces a question to one's salvation and you begin a treatise into how a man gets saved. I ask how a mere man's death, even granted absolute moral purity, could satisfy God's Justice, you indicate ignorance of the relevance of the question which further casts doubt upon your salvation.

Now, you start a thread to insist that you stand no risk of losing your salvation regardless what your views on the Trinity are. Why do you feel the need to do so, I wonder? Is it perhaps because you are in question as to your salvation? It matters nothing what I say about it unless what I say is true.

First of all, let me assure you that moral purity aka goodness is impossible to everyone except God.

Second, I assure you that Jesus was morally pure, that is, good.

Third, Jesus had capacity to bear the moral burden of the whole world.

Fourth, given that God's Justice demands that it is the soul that sins that shall bear punishment, Jesus was in the legal position to answer for the full moral responsibility of the whole creation.

Finally, in and after taking the punishment for the world's sin, Jesus was able to fully, finally and forever destroy the cause, root and power of sin.

All the above is a brief expantiation of the Gospel. If you accept all the above as true, you accept that Jesus is God. That is the meaning of believing the Gospel without which no man may be saved.

I want you to get one thing straight: that a thing is difficult or impossible to understand does not mean that it is untrue. Or else, space science would be untrue. I also want to state emphatically that a pathological liar's declaration that the sun rose today does not mean that the sun actually did not rise. Therefore, it is not only unwise but absurd to throw out a doctrine, any doctrine, only because the Roman Catholic Church or any other organization holds it. Wisdom and the Bible demand that before any decision is taken regarding a doctrine, the doctrine must be rigorously tested against the Bible.

These are days abounding in deception. It is by means of these delusions that many shall fall away. Be careful to know that you are not one of them.

You are living a gross deception and you do not know it.

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." - James 4:6

If you had asked the Pharisees if Jesus was the Messiah they would have told you 100% he wasn't , because they knew it all , yet they were utterly wrong.

I am not here argue with you , to avoid offence, this is my last comment on the matter with you.

Peace !!

nedostic: @Goshen360,

I have a simple question for you on this trinity dogma or doctrine as the case maybe.


Is father,son and holy spirit names or titles?

I believe it's a "personal" name for each of the Godhead or you can call it a distinctive names by which you recognize each in a context of the scripture. If you choose to call it title for clarification or explanation purpose, that's fine as long as people understand what you are saying. I don't know if that answers your question.

Goshen360:

I tell you the truth, you are not far from the kingdom of God. Trinity is not difficult at all. Very simple when you comprehend it. It is not explicitly mentioned as a word in the bible. It's just a terminology given by men just to understand the concept. That all. It's not a false teaching!

so you are now the one to determined who enters the kingdom of God and who is not even though you have not been quoting the bible?

What the vertican calls a mystery you are here saying it is "not difficult to understand"

that shows how much lies you are capable of saying.

You now understand it more than those that came up with it.

Goshen360: ^^^

Another point to consider is that.....Why does Jesus himself make this clear distinction should they NOT be different from each other? See my brother, I was once into this kind of confusion until I stayed still with the Holy Spirit and I was taught. Abeg, no do gra-gra with the Holy Spirit . Jesus could have said, In the name of the father and the Son only......should the Holy Spirit not be a distinct being.

Until you answer the question of the possibility of God (Spirit) being able to have Spirit/spirit, then you will still not see the Holy Spirit as a distinct being which Jesus also referred to.

Now answer the kweshion, CAN A SPIRIT HAVE/POSSESS A SPIRIT?

you dont even know that there is a differed between the holy spirit and spirit persons.

The power of spirit person is call "spirit", all unseen.

So, spirit person has their power called spirit, given to them by God since they dont have hand and leg like you and me but use their spirit to do things = their power.

frosbel:


You are living a gross deception and you do not know it.

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." - James 4:6

If you had asked the Pharisees if Jesus was the Messiah they would have told you 100% he wasn't , because they knew it all , yet they were utterly wrong.

I am not here argue with you , to avoid offence, this is my last comment on the matter with you.

Peace !!

Ok. This will be my last comment as well.

I have gone much farther for you than I did for truthislight, maybe anyone else at all. Those submissions are yours to research. I had the Scriptures backing them practically at my fingertips, but like I said, why start a war of Scriptures.

There are many who have claimed Jesus as Lord, many who say that they have confessed Him and believed in their hearts whom the Lord does not know. Salvation and membership of God's House is proved only by the indwelling of a person by the Spirit of God.

Such a person will be able to, even without perfect mental appreciation of foundational doctrines, accept and understand their validity. This is what I pray that you understand.

I do love to discuss with believers on doctrines and interpretations of the Scriptures, but I will never turn the Scriptures against themselves. I've got enough of that madness under my belt.