Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:06:06 +0100
From: abimbola.daniyan@shell.com
To: nate88et76@yahoo.com
Dear All

I have followed closely the interesting debate over the years on this matter of HND/BSc. I hope that the NITE Secretariat will go into its archives and re-publish the series of major seminar papers and memoranda by NATE on this issue for the education of the public at large. One impact of the discrimination against HND in Nigeria is the squander/wastage of national intellectual and industrial potential and capacity. I am convinced that the only intent of the Government institutionalised discrimination is the elimination of serious competitors in the delibrately narrowed field of participation created by the lack of industrial and cultural expansion in Nigeria. When next you see anyone brandishing their paper qualifications but not their performance track record, take note that you are seeing an ignorant person covering up the fact with the futile arrogance of paper. He/she is a paper tiger. A tiger does not boast of its tigritude [paper/theoretical ability to maul], it will actually tear up somebody, and the case is settled! Tell your paper tiger to SHOW US what he/she has done with the paper degree. It is all part of the culture of waste prevalent in the underdeveloped mind.
We must redeem the day. The Indians (and now)- the Chinese too are already here! Let's stop boasting and let's start doing and our work will speak for us. The HND/BSc unending discrimination and ensuing debate are one major reason besides "corruption" why Nigeria has failed to industrialise, because those who know are often sidelined and those who dont know get moved into positions of decision making, where they wield power -unfortunately with little real life experience on which to ground their decisons, and so they fail!
If you ask me, telling a lie is the root of all corruption. Telling a delibrate lie [when we say a man is "not qualified or not competent" when in fact he is!] - because of the inordinate ambition to gain an upper hand over a good competitor- is corruption. All corrupt acts necessarily begin with a delibrate lie.

Abimbola Daniyan

Let government close down polytechnics please.

Ishmael, try and be objective, face issues and not personality, it seems the topic is not for a debate but it came out inferiority complex, the way you attack people with opposing views amused me. For Gods sake, the most important thing in life is you, not your paper, tell me ten successful people whose achievements were based on paper qualification? and by the way what has this got to do with success, the most tmportant thing is to be well read and educated and not just go to school, see my ealier post on this, I have a friend who finished in a polytechnic in Osun, when he got to america he has to go and begin again, why? the company he wished to work for would not take his HND, but those of us who know him can testify that he is a genius, so what are you talking about. I recommend that you should take a degree course instead of taking on everyone that has an opposing view to yours.

Omofineboy or wats ur name sef, i wonder wat qualification you have; but you cannot be better than people with HND. Your friend probably went to do a degree because he was not a good HND graduate. A lot of people (nigerians) are working in UK, US and other European countries with their HND, so why is his own different?? Let him tell you the truth i beg. Bye Bye.

My qualification doesnt matter, what matters is whats in my upstairs okay. This will be my last post on you, I just believe that we should open our minds to knowledge, this site is about the best I have ever come across for its informative and educative posts. We should learn to submit to superior arguements. I have given you enough reasons on the subject matter, I once said that what makes a man is not the paper qualification but your real self please try and find out your real self instead of quarelling on HND and Bsc that are even worthless in Nigerian labour markets, you had better go and do Msc or a Phd, thats the only truth I can tell u.

Omofineboy, I wonder if you are realy fine as you are not patrotic, Hear Yakubu on this issue because you want the polytechnics closed.

"HND and Bachelor degree holders":

The impression in many circles is that the university degree is much higher than the Higher National Diploma (HND) obtained from polytechnics. What is more, they say, whereas polytechnic students aspire to acquire university education, the reverse is not the case with the university student. However, Dr. Nuru Yakubu said the impression is wrong.

The executive secretary says the purpose of both systems of education are equal. But whereas one emphasises the use of more knowledge, the other is more concerned with the practical use of that knowledge. Hear him: "If you take the graduate from the polytechnic system, an HND holder and you take a Bachelor degree holder from the university, taking into consideration the purpose of the university training and that of polytechnic, they are equal. But these two people are different. One is aimed at using more knowledge, while the other is more concerned about the practical use of that knowledge.
"The problem with Nigeria is that, unfortunately, because of our historical practices, we lack the appreciation of the ability of people. We pay more attention to paper qualification."
Yakubu says he is very competent to make the comparison and that having worked in both systems makes him a more appreciative arbiter in this whole matter of which system is better.

"I have worked and taught in both the university and polytechnic system. I do know what happens and we interact. This is a national problem. In fact, it has gone beyond national to international problem.
"The difference is that other countries have made big progress and moved away from not appreciating people who can do things and are competent. They now place more premium on what you can do. What you have proved you can do and the skills you posses rather than what you are being assessed on paper to indicate that you can do. This is the major difference.

"We have studied the system very carefully and we know the problems. In Nigeria, this has been with us since colonial days and what we have resolved after interaction is that we are going to do two or three changes to make things better.

"In Nigeria, unfortunately, it is not the product that is important, but the input. You may put in excellent input, which may come out not good enough. But because the input is excellent, they say this man is excellent. Let me be a little bit more practical. What I mean is that people should be judged based on what they can do after they have gone through the process, rather than what they have been assessed to be able to do before they go through the system.

"The point is that somebody who has aggregate six in SSCE or NECO, but comes out with very poor degree or somebody with not so good SSCE who comes out with First Class. It is the product that is more important. We tend to measure too much of the input and not bother about the product. This is the bane of education in this country. If we can sort out this problem, then the product of polytechnics should be smiling all the way."

HND-holder no mind that one wey dey call himself fineboy. Anyway fineboy na monkey. I like what Dr. Nuru yakubu just said about nigerians giving too much attention to input rather than output. Nigerians believe that someone with 9 distinctions can do better than people with just 5 o'level credits; which is not true. That is why they believe that since polytechnic entry requirement is 4 o'level credits in some some poly it is 5 sha, they believe that polytechnic products cannot be as good as the university products. It's a laughing issue anyway. But we have it on ground even in the universities that people with just 5 o'level credits graduate with better grades than those who came in with 9 distinctions. The same thing applies to the polytechnics too where people with just 4 o'level credits come out with better grades than those with distinctions in o'levels. Really the input in this case does not determine the output, at all. I have said it before that if polytechnics are given the same recognition, funding and opportunity as the universities, the will chun out better products than what is obtainable at the moment. Most guys that would have made the polytechnics proud end up going to the universities after their ND for fear of being discriminated; and at the end of the day the universities concern begin to brag thinking that it is what they taught the student in the university that made him good, not knowing that it is the skills the student acquired while studying in the polytechnic that really made him good.

Wetin dey happen. Go to Jobs under General discussion, Topic; Job Seekers: What Course Did You Study. You'll find out that 2/3 of the job seekers there are B.sc holder, meaning that HND people dey get the Job or dey set up on there own oooooo.
I beg HND people no story just carry go

yes o, no body can stop us. it's either we get the job or we create and set up our own jobs. thats polytechnic graduates for you.

What we know they will never know. But what they know we knew better. Now we are PhD holder How many of them can handle simple house work or want to acquire simple skill? Them be DANFO DRIVERS with their degree. The end of the road.
How many can afford to go to USA? so HND is for us.
"whereas polytechnic students aspire to acquire university education, the reverse is not the case with the university student. However, Dr. Nuru Yakubu said the impression is wrong".

Dats naija for u.

Ishmael and Hnd-Holder, you are both extremely delusional when it comes to the status of the HND.

Donzman:

Ishmael and Hnd-Holder, you are both extremely delusional when it comes to the status of the HND.

Dats because we too once had HND.

HND or Bsc does not matter much, it is what you as an individual can do with your knowlegdge and skills that matters most.

Why the argument about HND and BSC. ?

Okay, someone should tell me why BSC is better. It's only uneducated fellows that still think that way.

Gone are those days when polys are noted for technical aspect only.

Today, polys are the same as unis. Employers and recruiting firms don't conduct separate exam for poly and uni graduates.

The same exams and interviews are being conducted for HND and BSC holders seeking for jobs, why should there be descrimination again?

HND is 5 years including the one year IT, Bsc is less or thesame (5 years)  in  case of engineering and some few courses.

Who said nigerian universities do research? if you think they do, you're only deceiving yourself. Just visit any site or universities sites abroad and see for yourself what research is all about.

So the descrimination thing should end. Tests conducted by banks and other firms clearly show that BSC holders don't perform better than HND holders.

In nigeria, we don't have engineers we only have technicians. what we do is to repair and construct manual equipments which the HND graduates are the best at.

The BSC holders get jobs in firms and get trained as a technicians also.

If you don't believe how many computer engineers have built a simple hard-disk or floppy drive in Nigeria? Don't BSC holders go out their to get trained as techincians at street computer and technical colleges?

so the issue of BSC and HND shouldn't border any well focused Nigerian. What you can do is what matters in life.

Remember BSC or HND doesn't  make one a great leader. Only thinking people become great leaders, achievers and innovators.

Thank you

you are correct my broda. Most engineers in nigeria are more or less technicians.

HND and Bsc are now equal . Sorry no more HND.

Some degree are not better than HND www.corenng.org check the coren requirements for registration.

@HND-holder
In Nigeria the HND syllabus looks better and richer than that of the BEng and BTech. The problem is that nigerians look at HND the sme way British look at HND today, but there is a clear distinction between HND in Nigeria and HND in the UK. HND in Nigeria is even richer than BSc, BEng and BTech in the UK.

While browsing on the net, I came upon this Nigerian guy who wrote something in the past about his Perspective on HND. You an check his brief at

http://imprs.ice.mpg.de/usrpers/chdi3499/web/main_en.htm

niterider: I dnt have nothin against HND holders but the fact remains a diploma wld never be better than a degree.

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