Achebe laments aloud over the fate of his country, Nigeria

Recently Professor Chinua Achebe, speaking at an event organized in his honour by the Nigerian Lawyers Association (NLA) in New York, cried aloud his concern over his country saying, "Nigeria has become a society on the brink of lawlessness".

Do you agree with this assertion or not, and why?

I dont agree. Nigeria is in bad shape, but not on the brink of lawlessness. When i hear lawlessness,i think sudan and congo. Nigeria is not in that realm at all

pintos is one of those who loves to stay where they are and throw stones...

Achebe, sorry to say is senile.

I can see how much you love Nigeria, and believe you me; I love Nigeria to pieces too. However, the sooner we all are willing to face up to the fact that ‘Business as usual’ must stop in our country, the sooner the people are brought consciously to embrace a new order of life in all Spheres.

The sooner we have that liberation from the old order and live as human beings, only then can we prepare a glorious nation for a generation to come.

We must not in pursuit of nationalism, hold vague and sentimental opinion to the frontal ills of our society to the detriment of our national growth. Please say it as it is and ask for a change today, now! This is your chance, or remain forever silent!

I think achebe's words were taken out of context. i spoke to someone that went to the event and they dont remember him saying that

Achebe don't know what he is saying.

pintos:

I can see how much you love Nigeria, and believe you me; I love Nigeria to pieces too.

Yes, I love Nigeria. No I don't think you do.

pintos:


However, the sooner we all are willing to face up to the fact that ‘Business as usual’ must stop in our Country,
The sooner the people are brought consciously to embrace a new Order of life in all Spheres,
The sooner we have that liberation from the old Order and live as human beings, only then can we prepare a glorious nation for a generation to come.

Many Nigerians in Nigeria actually realise that something is wrong with the country. And hello, we are also smart enough to realise that doing something about it doesn't involve running outside to another man's land and washing our diry linen in public.

pintos:


''THIS IS YOUR CHANCE, OR FOREVER REMAIN SILENT

Speak English man and stop speaking wedding. What does that statement mean in whatever context?

[color=#000099] Dear Chxta,
It is a pity that I can not join issues with you,
because I don't know where to start.
Please kindly address issues and not pick on people.
Thank you.You have won.[/color]

The fact that one is not a resident of Nigeria does not mean one should be silent or apathetic about Nigerian issues. It is so obvious that there is nothing but chaos and lawlessness in Nigeria, that even the blind can see it!

Is it the okada rider or the molue? Or the police man collecting bribes and killing at will? Is it the area boys, or the road side beggars, or the street/highway hawker?

Recently a naval officer shot an okada driver to death (I was there, I read in the news prints), what happened next? The okada association went on rampage and destroyed both public and private properties.

There is refuse everywhere in Nigeria, soon you'll have refuse in front of Aso rock! You hear of lectureres selling handouts, many of this is a variant of financial extortion! They sleep with their female students too, how about the college cultism? The list is endless... There is so much decadence in the system people and you all know it! It does need to come from Achebe or some big shot.

This is a very valid and important issue and should not be turned into personal attacks, attack the message ( if you have what it takes) and leave the messenger out of it, please! Talkin' of lawlessness...

[color=#000099] Imnakoya, Thank you for your broadmindedness.
A great misfortune with most of our people is that they are absolutely ignorant on current events,
or that, lacking honesty, they will not speak of these matters destroying the very fabric of our national life for the sake of patriotism.
We have done it long enough and now paying a great price, chained and in perpetual slavery by a few ruling class.
Their Children[ruling class] attend the best schools abroad, live well and get the best jobs any where they want, while the lot can hardly survive or find a good meal.
I cry for millions of Nigerians who do not know what 'living ' a good life is all about, not for myself, no no no.............far from it and will never give up,
I earnestly strive for economic and social reconstruction in Nigeria.
Please, lets join hands together and bring about the much needed change.
WHAT CAN WE DO?[/color]

Nothing was lawlessness ? sounds liek you are the blind man. in the US police dont kill people? doesnt the public riot afterwards?

College cultism is exxagerrated. Yes its a problem, but you want to compare it to gangs in LA, or chicago? do any of those area boys measure up to the Latin Kings or wild gangs like that. The US has kids killing themselves, high schools kids, with sophisticated guns yet they would never call thier society lawles because there is more to a socity than violence.

As for refuge everywhere, come visit calabar and tell me what refuge you find on the streets. Nigeria is a big and very varied country

"Nothing but lawlessness ? sounds like you are the blind man."

Ummh, that is some strong language there Obong! I'm not blind: I have 20/20 sight, and I'm sure you have full use of your sights also, and its good that we are both here in the US, so we are even.

Okay, US police kill, true that! find the statistics, it is sporadic. Do they shot and ask questions later? Do they shot because you would not cooperate with them? Are you even comfortable calling Nigerian police when you are in problem? Do US police pull you over and make you open your luggage at every check point? Yes, there is racial profiling in the US and you could get pulled over. But their reasons are different from naija police men.

Cultism and gangs...Yes you have sporadic shootings in US schools and you have gangs. So are you saying the college cults and US gangs are equivalent? Cultism in Nigerian colleges is exaggerated, you must be living in the moon! Ask anyone old enough about what happened in Unilag, UI and some other schools, they will tell you. If you relations that got maimed or killed, I'm sure your reasoning will be different. Do you know how many times schools were shut down because of this? Can you even fathom the cost?

Why are you afraid to call a spade a spade? You can not compare what happens here in US, or NYC with what Nigeria. That is a very biased comparison and very unreasonable, Obong.

I have been to Calabar - beautiful city probably one of the best in Nigeria, Calabar is not Nigeria, just like NYC or Minneapolis or LA is not USA.

@ PINTOS

I'm afraid the Nigerian situation is rather bleak, but it can improved drastically. I think the moment the average Nigerians start feeling franchised and relevant- then we can "all step up our game" and be more orderly and organized. It is going to take a visionary leader that is intelligent, strong, tough, focused, passionate and resilient to pull us out of this mess. So far, those we have as leaders are just mediocre...maybe Marwa has something in stock...maybe...

[color=#000099]''Falsehood is a moral burden that Nigerians bear without apologies. But the implication of the lies our people tell about dates of birth, and age, is that in such circumstances, falsehood is accepted and promoted. More than half of the Nigerian population commits perjury at least once in a life-time: a sworn affidavit produced in a Nigerian court of law cannot be relied upon as an instrument of truth. From telling lies about their age, Nigerians also end up telling lies about everything else. Civil servants falsify documents; policemen arrest persons, and accuse them falsely; government officials deceive the people, and it is considered unusual for a Nigerian politician to speak the truth. Europeans who may be wondering why an individual can possibly have two different dates of birth may not understand this, but as Nigerians, it is something we live with. Except that no one has an answer to the ticking of the biological clock and the inevitability of death. ''--- REUBEN ABATI, The Guardian newspaper[6th August, 2005][/color]

'' Nigeria is a sad tale in contradiction, where things work in the opposite direction most of the time.

According to the Accountant General of the Federation, Nigeria lost more than N23 billion in 2001 alone. And virtually all ministries and parastatals were guilty. So, where is our hope for the future?

If N23 billion was stolen in one year in a country where most people cannot boast of two square meals a day, where are we heading?

Unfortunately, the state of poverty in the country has exacerbated her political crises and instability.

Tragically, most political leaders view their positions as avenues for massively looting the national treasury.

Elected as appointive political office holders have substituted “lootocracy” for democracy and what we are witnessing now is a looting spree.

Only decisive action will rid the nation of these bad eggs. ''

Akume Ilyu,
Mbadede Council War,
Vandeikya LGA,
Benue State.

The PUNCH, Friday, August 05, 2005

Don't you tell me about Calabar.
What is so wonderful about Calabar?
Incidentally I come from Cross River State.
All they have done is to concentrate on sweeping the streets of Calabar and host jamborees at all times, while the inhabitants go to sleep in empty stomachs.
Have you been to other parts of Cross river state?
- Awi, Akamkpa,Uyanga, Abinni, Ugep, Itigidi, Ediba, Ebom, Apiapum, Obubra, Okunni, Ikom, Agbokim, Etung, Bansara, all the towns in Boki and Mbubum, Okuku, Ukelle, Ogoja, Boje, Obanlikwu, Obudu.
The list is endless............where people do not know what development is.
Please let us not indict the Government..............Calabar is a complete whitewash stuff of the true picture of Cross river state.
YOU MAY GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF WITH ME AS YOUR GUIDE FOR FREE!

Thi is what you stated: :Okay, US police kill, true that! find the statistics, it is sporadic. Do they shot and ask questions later? Do they shot because you would not cooperate with them? Are you even comfortable calling Nigerian police when you are in problem? Do US police pull you over and make you open your luggage at every check point? Yes, there is racial profiling in the US and you could get pulled over. But their reasons are different from Nigeria police men.

I'm telling you that the police in the US kill for all those reasons, just as in Nigeria. Its a bad thing whether it happens in nigeria or the US, but my ultimate point is that nigeria is more than these negtive things. Just like the US is more than it negative parts. The funny thing is people think nigeria is so violent a country, yet vacation places like south africa and jamaica are more violent yet, if you asked anyone on the street they would ay nigeria is. South africa leads the world in both rapes and murders. But people think nigerians are the worse. You know why? because we go about exaggerating the problems in the country.

pintos, i'm also from calabar and its by no means a whitewash. How was the place before Duke and how is it now. Yes, not everyone has a job, but I don't expect that in one administration. Even under Bush the US has been losing jobs. But the point is cross river is moving in the right direction. It has a people oriented invested policy that has garned international recognition and invesment. and its done this with little or no resources in the state. Only with ideas. I know people that own businesses in cross river state and they cant praise the man enough for the suppor he has given them. Mind you its only been 6 years. Did you expect him to have 100% employment in that short time?

People are so unwilling to give credit where it is due, but are so generous with criticism. How can you say jamborees and sweeping the floor is all they do. I'm sure if they didnt sweep the floor you'd say, "they can't even sweep the floor!" Give me a break. I get your position, nigeria is te worst place on the planet. Not a soul is doing anything decent

obong:


I'm telling you that the police in the US kill for all those reasons, just as in Nigeria. Its a bad thing whether it happens in Nigeria or the US, but my ultimate point is that Nigeria is more than these negtive things. Just like the US is more than it negative parts. The funny thing is people think nigeria is so violent a country, yet vacation places like south africa and jamaica are more violent yet, if you asked anyone on the street they would ay nigeria is. South africa leads the world in both rapes and murders. But people think nigerians are the worse. You know why? because we go about exaggerating the problems in the country.

I thought the topic was on "lawlessness". But you'll rather spin the topic around war (you mentioned Sudan) and violence. While there may be some semblance around lawlessness and war/violence, there are sharp differences between the two.

I'll have disagree with Imnakoya's last comment. In Obong's comment which you quoted, he talked about rapes and murders in peace-time South Africa and the USA. You appear to have completely misunderstood him!

Obong's comment is valid: we should also try to talk about the good things that are happening in Nigeria, too.
Timbuktu Chronicles is an example of a site that focuses exclusively on good things happening in Africa.

UPDATE: I'm not saying that other blogs don't report good things about Nigeria; I'm saying that this is an example of a blog that refuses to discuss anything that is negative; it discusses just the positive things related to entrepreneurship.

The original thread says Lawlessness. If you, Obong, want to extrapolate that to violence and whatever, fine! State upfront clearly. What I know, and the basis for the back and forth between Obong and I, aside from his language, was the comparison he made between Nigeria and US. That is baseless, and there is no way you can spin that.

If anyone has anything good thing to say about Nigeria, they are free to say it in clear terms and loudly too. I'm all for it!

Seun: I do not really understand what you are implying. I love Nigeria more than you'd realize because I have a lot to lose if things go bad. So I do not have any problem showcasing the good stuff in Nigeria. And I have on Grandiose Parlor. Emeka has two blogs, Timbuktu Chr is just one, and he has had reasons to post from my blog and I likewise. Well this is a different topic entirely ...

As seun said, you missed what i was saying. No one is questioning your love for nigeria. and if you feel the comparison to the US is wrong, then thats fine. I was pointing out that the police in the US are just as ruthless. I've been a victim, as have been my friend. If anything most of the police in nigeia are pathetic beggers, and are that way because of bad government. What excuse does an american police have to be that way? Ok, fine let's leave the US alone, what of south africa. how mny people know that it ranks for high in rapes and murders: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Look at those numbers and try to tell me about lawlesness. Its rape is almost double that of the country in second place. Yet south africa has a better reputation and perception around the world. This morning i read another article that said Festac town is a ton full of scammers, and attributed the money the EFCC has recoved ($700million)solely to 419 scams, which is a lie, the money colleced has involved various multinationals, oil companies, officials such as abacha. They attributed this money to 419 because it helps the news organisations here exxagerate the 419 problem in order to swear the entire country. This sort of mischaracterisation of the 419 issue and nigeria's problem is too common and its perpetuated by us as well, destroying our country;s image.

By the way, this is the article I read this morning:

[url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0508070399aug07,1,3423926.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed]E-scams bear fruit despite police crackdown in Nigeria[/url]

Associated Press
Published August 7, 2005

LAGOS, Nigeria -- Day in, day out, a strapping, amiable 24-year-old who calls himself Kele B. heads to an Internet cafe, hunkers down at a computer and casts his net upon the cyber-waters.

Despite signs warning of the penalties for Internet fraud, he has sent out thousands of e-mails telling recipients they've won about $6.4 million in a British "Internet lottery."

"Congratulation! You Are Our Lucky Winner!" the e-mail says.

So far, Kele says, he has had only one response. But he claims it paid off handsomely. An American took the bait, he says, and coughed up "fees" and "taxes" of more than $5,000, never to hear from Kele again.

Festac Town, a district of Lagos where the scammers ply their schemes, has become notorious for "419 scams," named for the section of the Nigerian penal code that outlaws them.

In Festac Town, an entire community of scammers works the Internet overnight. By day the scammers flaunt their clothes and cars and hang around the Internet cafes, trading stories about successful cons and near misses.

Here lurk purveyors of such software as "e-mail extractors," which can harvest e-mail addresses by the million.

Now, however, Nigerian authorities say a 3-year-old crackdown is yielding results.

The rest of the article is on [url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0508070399aug07,1,3423926.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed]the link[/url].

Brothers,

Our position of love for Nigeria is very clear; all we are saying here is that things just got to change for the better.

I count myself as being so privileged in the true sense of it, but I cry for more than hundred of millions of my fellow Nigerians who live below poverty level, while a few persons are looting the national treasury and feasting on their flesh like vultures.

My brother, the gory tales of lawlessness in Nigeria I bet can never be accepted in the US without the full arms of the law coming in to take its weight on the perpetrators. The difference is that while in these places the society and the Law rejects such practices, in Nigeria lawlessness is the order of the day.

The list is endless, but look at these ones:
- The Politician who wins election by rigging/thuggery or embezzles public funds.
- The 419ner who makes money by crook.
- The importer who makes money by bringing in fake goods.
- The ritual killer who makes money by using human parts in his money spinning business,
- The Police man who acquires property and stupendous wealth from corrupt tendencies ,
- The student who cheats by either sleeping with lecturers or buying scores in examinations,
- The lecturers who forces students to buy handouts,
- The contractor who performs below standard or over invoices his contract,
- The custom/ immigration official who closes his eyes within our borders,
- Our soldier who takes power by force,
- Our members of the legislative houses who blackmail the Executive to make money,
- The Governors who loot our treasuries ,
- Public officialss who steal public funds and stash in foreign accounts ,
- These people are hailed as successful in Nigeria and worthy of emulation.

These are the enemies of the people.

as a lawyer in the US i can tell you the same thing goes onhere in new york. Even some of the judges take bribes and one politician i worked for was notorious or it. Your perception of the US as a haven of lawfullness is misguided

obong:

as a lawyer in the US i can tell you the same thing goes onhere in new york. Even some of the judges take bribes and one politician i worked for was notorious or it. Your perception of the US as a haven of lawfullness is misguided

I concur with you there...but when these guys are caught in the US, what happens? Who catches similar rogues in Nigeria? ...the issues of what happens is irrelevant, I beleive

So, if I may ask, attorney Obong, is the magnitude of lawlessness in these 2 countries of the same magnitude?

On a scale of 0 to 10 (0 being lowest), how would you rank these two countries?

Besides I do not doubt your statistics in S Africa...I wonder where Nigeria will rank if we have the same data system, uhh?...another biased argument it seems to me.

I believe this is are fair and straight forward questions.

to answer your questions

1. when these guys are caught, some go to jail. some dont. My boss for instance, didn't. He's been very slick. Ultimately some are caught, others are not. But i'm not saying nigeria is a good as country as the uS. I'm saying that nigeria has is bad prts and good parts,liek other countries. But certainly the US is more lawful than nigeria, that i haven't agued. i merely stated tha nigeria is not as you describe it here.

2. Assuming the data system is the same, Nigeria still would not rank a high as south africa. South africa is a country that has gone through aparthied so its murder rate is a reflection of frustration at the great inbalance of wealth. rape likewise is a form of the weak seeking to exercise some power. Nigeria has its crime, but not on that level. Even casually speaking to people, much more of them have been attacked in south africa than nigeria. besides if you look at that chart, it lists countries with sysem of data collection we would expect from nigeria, like zimbabwe, papau new guinea, Kyrgyzstan, zmbia, etc and they are all ranked higher than nigeria in these crimes

PUBLIC OPINION--------------Complainants
      VS
NIGERIAN STATE ---------------DEFENDANTS


IMNAKOYA :             appearing for the Public Opinion.

ATTORNEY OBONG :    for the State of Nigeria.

JUDGMENT
Complainants  filed this suit under The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights , alleging that Defendants violated these rights  failing to provide  mechanisms for implementing Political, Social, Economic and Cultural rights of the Citizens of Nigeria.
Insisting that a truly free, democratic society is not possible when citizens lack the basic resources to excercise their freedoms,
where the rule of Law is not upheld and where the Government is not accountable to the people.

The defendant argues that , the State is not obliged to provide such rights to the people of Nigeria within its frame work, and draws its analogy with other 3rd world countries where the situation is not better and so can not be bothered.
The defendant goes further to label the Complainants and their Counsel as unpatriotic people for dare demanding for their Constitutional rights.

HELD:This Court rejects Defendants argument ................and hold the state as having the obligation to facilitate and provide for these rights where they are lacking within the limited resources of the state, because any step to the contrary spells doom for such a nation.
Further more it is the Decision of this Court........................

@ Obong on these

obong:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Look at those numbers and try to tell me about lawlesness. Its rape is almost double that of the country in second place...

Aside from the possibility of Nigeria not having the same data collection system (surveillance system) as S Africa and Zimbabwe, the web site states this: "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

What this means is that the statistics you have presented is dependent on;
1. The willing of a victim to report rape to the authorities, and
2. The effectiveness and efficiency of law enforcement

And I have these to add;
#1 is also dependent not only on the willing to report, but the awareness level of the victim to realize that rape is a crime. Now, this in itself, is dependent on the level of education of the victim and some other socioeconomic variables.

For your argument to be valid, all these factors must not  differ significantly (statistically) between the countries you are comparing. It remains to be seen how there isn't any differences between S. Africa, Zimbabwe and Nigeria, socioeconomically or educationally. I know the literacy rate in Zimbabwe is way higher than Nigeria's.

Any comparison of these crude rates is baseless and biased until you adjust for these confounding factors. simple statistics, my counsel.

and how come there isn't any West African nation listed in the data?

The lawyer in you is quite apparent; you responded to  a simple question with an answer with almost 10 lines!

Yeah, I know this is an overkill, but what else is there to do an a boring Sunday?....I rest my case, Attorney Obong, and as you can see, my vision is 20/20 and I'm not even close to being blind as you alluded earlier in the thread.

what's all that pintos? this is not a competition...

I've been away for some days, and I can see that someone heas been having a field day... I'll be back in a few hours

@ Aside from the possibility of Nigeria not having the same data collection system (surveillance system) as S Africa and Zimbabwe, the web site states this: "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

What this means is that the statistics you have presented is dependent on;
1. The willing of a victim to report rape to the authorities, and
2. The effectiveness and efficiency of law enforcement

Thats precisely why i gave you a variety of countries. I guess now you'll say zimbabwe, zambia, and all the others countries i gave you have better reportin systems than nigeria. the fact is with nigeria's high population, even the poorest of reporting system should push nigeria's crime rate to the top if its as lawless as you claim.

You added that education of the victim and so forth is needed. I offer to you that on average is less educated than zim or zambia, but Nigeria has larger population that is educated. Basically the 66% of nigerians that are educated come to about 75million people, which is greater than all of zim, 3 times over. For zim to out rank nigeria in rape, it has to be doing it at 3 tmes the rate nigeria is. If nigeria was a bad as you claim, it should have appeared on the list because there are so many educate nigerias. Same goes for jamaica, zambia, etc. How does jamaica with such a small population out pace nigeria in rapes and murders? you blame it all on bad reporting systems

as to why there isnt any west african country on the list I can only speculate that is has to do with the small population numbers, (gambia, 1 mil, Liberia, 3 mil, benin, togo, 6 mil, ) with only ghana being a somewhat hefty country, but its generally a peaceful country so we arent bound to find scary stats coming out of there. Nigeria is 50% of west africa's population. In addition, most west african countries havent had the turmoil of nigeria until recently. mayb the stats will change with those wars, but for the most part gambia, senegal, SL, burkina faso, niger are not known for crime. I think poor reporting plays in nigeria favor, but one can't push aside the fact that nigeria has a massive educated population. Thier numbers should hav an effect.

Is not a surprise that india tops the list for total murders because of its population. Russia is next. and the US is up there. China, im sure, isnt on the list because it hides its figures as policy of the communistgovernment. Zim, zambi and jamaica surpasing nigeria cannot be blamed solely on poor reporting

Interesting...it seems you are in haste...you just don't look at raw counts of events like these and start running with them. You need some common denominators so that you can, at least, do some meaningful comparison.

For example, if the murder count in Lagos is 1,000 (population, say 10,000), and in murder in Kano is 800 (population, say 8,000). Is it fair to say that the Lagos is more dangerous?

Look at the rates, Lagos=1,000/10,000 and Kano=800/8,000; the rates are the same! 1 in 10 person is murdered.

You have to apply the same mind set to these numbers, click on the rate per capita in the table and the scenario changes drastically.

Besides you did not address the points I raised head-on, and to be honest with you I have little confidence in these numbers, what are the methodology used? Who knows?

I get your point though, which is "lets prop up our country rather than bashing her all the time." I can live with that level of patriotism...  but when we see some seriousness from our "masters", we servants will show "hallelujah".  So for the time being, Nigeria is rotten, and we need to speak to the issues as they are.