There is no worldview that lacks an element or entity that exhibits self-sufficiency.

Ihedinobi: There is no worldview that lacks an element or entity that exhibits self-sufficiency.

That's correct. Its just that people differ on what is self existent. I have said often that its either one beleives in a self existent cause of the universe or one believes that the universe itself is self existent. That latter is evidentially false.

Yeah. They're deceiving themselves.

Ihedinobi: There is no worldview that lacks an element or entity that exhibits self-sufficiency.

I would say the opposite.
We are all atheists.
Anytime we express doubts or loss about origin and existence, we are looking for something other than the fairy tales we have been fed from childhood.
Anytime we stop to ponder, we are expressing doubts about the existence of god.
When theists begin to make excuses and exceptions for god, it is clear that they are exhibiting deep down anxieties that god may not exists after all.

Ihedinobi: There is no worldview that lacks an element or entity that exhibits self-sufficiency.

Aaaaannndddd again, even if one agreed, why is this self-sufficient element a conscious 'god'?

Edit: You do realize that atheism is a rejection of the notion of deities, and that is all there is to it?

Ihedinobi: There is no worldview that lacks an element or entity that exhibits self-sufficiency.

So far, you have looked at your beliefs (worldview) as an insider would. Have you ever for once looked at your faith as an outsider would. i.e. see your faith as it would appear to you if you had not been raised a christian? This is otherwise known as OTF-outsider's test of faith

That aside, i will rather rely on scientific explanation of the universe (which holds true and valid irrespective of culture or religioius faith) rather than rely on any religious faith, because when you juxtapose your faith with islam's and hindus' theory of the universe, they are somehow similar and fairy-tale sounding to a non-religious mind and to make things worse, you are mandated to believe it or face the wrath of their respective gods for disbelief. That may work for many people, but not for everybody.

Believe anything you want to believe about your so-called creator your christianity mandates you to believe, but dont think everyone will see things the way you do. You dont see things the way everyone outside your religious faith does anyway.

Cheers

vislabraye: Yeah. They're deceiving themselves.

By believing in a god whom you have to rationalise, defend and justify based on ancient text you were told was written by an omniscient author; who do you really think is deceiving themselves?

cyrexx:

That aside, i will rather rely on scientific explanation (which holds true and valid irrespective of culture or religioius faith) of the universe rather than rely on any religious faith

1. Does that apply to Darwinism (atheistic evolution theory) or you just choose to accept it in spite of its ridiculous positions?
2. Tell me the Big B-a-n-g Theory is your gospel!

Something I bookmarked recently has become handy rather quickly. I reproduce it below in a revised form as agreed by all concerned and I'm sure none of the parties concerned would mind the reproduction.

From https://www.nairaland.com/919500/atheism-vs-deism-vs-theism/4#12207142

pak: Kay, Pls can you do me a favour,

Just replace the word reality with God in your statement below and see what you get

Kay 17:
Reality itself can have no origin, because to conceive an origin for reality, we would fall into a pit of absurdity. Therefore reality is self existent. As a result subjects of reality are equally self existent either potentially or in actuality. . . . .


In other words, it has always been here

Infact, I'll do it for you.

Kay 17: God Himself can have no origin, because to conceive an origin for God, we would fall into a pit of absurdity. Therefore God is self existent. . . . .


In other words, God has always been here

If its not difficult to believe in the self existent nature of reality, then why is it strange to believe in the self existence of a deity.

Very nice; so, bookmarked for reference.


PS @Kay17 ---- I wonder if you will ever raise "infinite regress" again . . . .



(Edited version of original)

This is the foolishness of theists/deists appearing again.


There is no evidence for god. You people keep using the same dead arguments.

Please, notice that all their evidence for god is based on mystery. How can a mystery be evidence when a mystery by definition is confusion because there is no evidence/clues to explain it.



Mysteries used as evidence for God;

-Ihedinobi starts the thread with the mystery of "self sufficiency"
-Deepsight and Enigma use the origin of the universe to claim God exists. (No one knows the full origin of the universe)
-Miracles. Something mysteriously happens (eg a person defeats cancer) and it is God that did it!



Seriously?


Let me debunk the Cosmological arguments for God once and for all
-Whatever the origin or cause of the universe we do not fully know. Anything that tries to explain it without empirical evidence or some data is a hypothesis.

-We can easily explain how something can come from something. We have no evidence nor reason to believe that an immaterial spirit being can create something.

-We have no evidence for spirits or invisible beings not now or ever. You cant even explain what a spirit is? Is it antimatter or gas? How would a spirit be able to create the world? One mystery used to explain the mystery of the origin of our universe!




#theism/deism debunked.

@Post
Well I don't believe in any God & you can't prove that I do.

1supremo:
1. Does that apply to Darwinism (atheistic evolution theory)

Yes. As well as many many other scientific theories and inventions that has solved our problems and increased our knowledge and improved our world.

By the way, established scientific truth of evolution has nothing to do with atheism. Many theists also accept evolution. Only the deliberately ignorant or otherwise dishonest folks will deny evolution in this modern age; in spite of overwhelming evidence to support it.

1supremo:
or you just choose to accept it in spite of its ridiculous positions?

You want to dismiss established science as ridiculous? What century are you living in? So your creation myth should be seen as a fact?.

1supremo:
2. Tell me the Big B-a-n-g Theory is your gospel!

Since you want me to tell you what you want to hear, I will tell you - YES!

but my gospel is testable and verifiable and encourages critical thinking and logical reasoning, unlike your mythical fairy tale unprovable gospel that discourages critical thinking and mandates me to believe or burn

Deep Sight:

That's correct. Its just that people differ on what is self existent. I have said often that its either one beleives in a self existent cause of the universe or one believes that the universe itself is self existent. That latter is evidentially false.

My thoughts exactly. There is no human being who does not possess a positive appreciation of self-existence in his worldview.

plaetton:

I would say the opposite.
We are all atheists.
Anytime we express doubts or loss about origin and existence, we are looking for something other than the fairy tales we have been fed from childhood.
Anytime we stop to ponder, we are expressing doubts about the existence of god.
When deists begin to make excuses and exceptions for god, it is they are exhibiting deep down anxieties that god may not exists after all.

One does not ponder on non-existent things, one ponders on the truth or the true nature of things. Atheism posits that there is no God, atheists posit that anything but Jesus, Allah, Buddha etc, is or could be God. A contradiction if ever there was one.

wiegraf:

Aaaaannndddd again, even if one agreed, why is this self-sufficient element a conscious 'god'?

Edit: You do realize that atheism is a rejection of the notion of deities, and that is all there is to it?

Of course I know what atheism is. It's a philosophy that holds that God or Deity or the Absolute or the Arbitrary does not exist. But its proponents hold that certain candidates for Deity do not exist while others do. That makes atheism a lie.

Who's talking about consciousness? I couldn't care less if you thought the only self-sufficient thing is a stone, in your worldview you still hold that God exists. If there is any real battle, it's over idolatry, not atheism.

cyrexx:


So far, you have looked at your beliefs (worldview) as an insider would. Have you ever for once looked at your faith as an outsider would. i.e. see your faith as it would appear to you if you had not been raised a christian? This is otherwise known as OTF-outsider's test of faith

That aside, i will rather rely on scientific explanation of the universe (which holds true and valid irrespective of culture or religioius faith) rather than rely on any religious faith, because when you juxtapose your faith with islam's and hindus' theory of the universe, they are somehow similar and fairy-tale sounding to a non-religious mind and to make things worse, you are mandated to believe it or face the wrath of their respective gods for disbelief. That may work for many people, but not for everybody.

Believe anything you want to believe about your so-called creator your christianity mandates you to believe, but dont think everyone will see things the way you do. You dont see things the way everyone outside your religious faith does anyway.

Cheers

So according to you, science is God.

cyrexx:


So far, you have looked at your beliefs (worldview) as an insider would. Have you ever for once looked at your faith as an outsider would. i.e. see your faith as it would appear to you if you had not been raised a christian? This is otherwise known as OTF-outsider's test of faith

That aside, i will rather rely on scientific explanation of the universe (which holds true and valid irrespective of culture or religioius faith) rather than rely on any religious faith, because when you juxtapose your faith with islam's and hindus' theory of the universe, they are somehow similar and fairy-tale sounding to a non-religious mind and to make things worse, you are mandated to believe it or face the wrath of their respective gods for disbelief. That may work for many people, but not for everybody.

Believe anything you want to believe about your so-called creator your christianity mandates you to believe, but dont think everyone will see things the way you do. You dont see things the way everyone outside your religious faith does anyway.

Cheers

So according to you, science is God.

cyrexx:

By believing in a god whom you have to rationalise, defend and justify based on ancient text you were told was written by an omniscient author; who do you really think is deceiving themselves?

But since your own texts are relatively modern and "revolutionary", your own God is the true one?

manmustwac: @Post
Well I don't believe in any God & you can't prove that I do.

Wanna bet?

The question is not whether a GOD exists but if the concept is as we make it. yes there is a cause but by infusing our sorely illiterate, incomplete and often illogical knowledge of The Cause, we create a phenomenon that is as powerful as our limited understanding (or misunderstanding as is the case). In similar vein God-believing folks are quick to label Atheist as Nothing-Believers.. I believe in Humanity and the Golden Rule and practice it under no one's instruction or biased injunctions.

cyrexx:
Yes. As well as many many other scientific theories and inventions that has solved our problems and increased our knowledge and improved our world.

By the way, established scientific truth of evolution has nothing to do with atheism. Many theists also accept evolution. Only the deliberately ignorant or otherwise dishonest folks will deny evolution in this modern age; in spite of overwhelming evidence to support it.


You want to dismiss established science as ridiculous? What century are you living in? So your creation myth should be seen as a fact?.


Since you want me to tell you what you want to hear, I will tell you - YES!

but my gospel is testable and verifiable and encourages critical thinking and logical reasoning, unlike your mythical fairy tale unprovable gospel that discourages critical thinking and mandates me to believe or burn

Therefore your God is the true God. Aren't we saying the same thing? That you're no atheist because there is no real philosophical position called atheism.

lagerwhenindoubt: The question is not whether a GOD exists but if the concept is as we make it. yes there is a cause but by infusing our sorely illiterate, incomplete and often illogical knowledge of The Cause, we create a phenomenon that is as powerful as our limited understanding (or misunderstanding as is the case). In similar vein God-believing folks are quick to label Atheist as Nothing-Believers.. I believe in Humanity and the Golden Rule and practice it under no one's instruction or biased injunctions.

I'm sure that you are aware that it is atheists themselves that posit that there is no such thing as God, not theists. I'm only saying that even atheists themselves give the lie to their claim with their arguments for it.

Ihedinobi:

I'm sure that you are aware that it is atheists themselves that posit that there is no such thing as God, not theists. I'm only saying that even atheists themselves give the lie to their claim with their arguments for it.

How are you sure it is GOD.. If not for the Faith Glue you would not have as much as 1% evidence to your claims..

Ihedinobi:

So according to you, science is God.

LOL.

You are lying and you are going to perish in your mythical hell fire if you do not repent. I never said or implied that science is my god by any stretch of imagination or inference. You would wish i say that because whoever does not acknowledge your yahweh must be damned as an idolater worshipping another god. I can clearly see what religion has done to configure your brain this way. You must see god in everything.

Its OK. No lele. Whatever floats your boat.

Cheers, mate

Why did Ihedinobi and co ignore my comment?

Did I debunk the shytt out of them?

MacDaddy01: This is the foolishness of theists/deists appearing again.


There is no evidence for god. You people keep using the same dead arguments.

Please, notice that all their evidence for god is based on mystery. How can a mystery be evidence when a mystery by definition is confusion because there is no evidence/clues to explain it.



Mysteries used as evidence for God;

-Ihedinobi starts the thread with the mystery of "self sufficiency"
-Deepsight and Enigma use the origin of the universe to claim God exists. (No one knows the full origin of the universe)
-Miracles. Something mysteriously happens (eg a person defeats cancer) and it is God that did it!



Seriously?


Let me debunk the Cosmological arguments for God once and for all
-Whatever the origin or cause of the universe we do not fully know. Anything that tries to explain it without empirical evidence or some data is a hypothesis.

-We can easily explain how something can come from something. We have no evidence nor reason to believe that an immaterial spirit being can create something.

-We have no evidence for spirits or invisible beings not now or ever. You cant even explain what a spirit is? Is it antimatter or gas? How would a spirit be able to create the world? One mystery used to explain the mystery of the origin of our universe!




#theism/deism debunked.

@ Macdaddy,

The fact that u were born of a woman, alive and kicking is evidence there is God whether u believe or not.

Tgirl4real: @ Macdaddy,

The fact that u were born of a woman, alive and kicking is evidence there is God whether u believe or not.

The fact that I was born of a woman, alive and kicking is evidence of the human reproductive system and and evolutionary system of reproduction to continue to existence of a species! Nothing more

Good! Who set the process in motion? How come u didn't evolve or drop from d sky? Why did it have to take a man impregnating a woman to produce U?

Sorry to say, dis ya atheist argument is lame. I'm a Christ follower/believer, right? But that isn't the case here. I see atheists as people with too little brain to reason out a simple logic. The same reason u give to debunk theist arguments debunk yours (may be I don't know ur explanation about d existence of the earth/man yet) as well.

Talking about spiritism, could u pls prove to me scientifically how someone in Nigeria will travel to India while his body still remains here and he is holding a meeting in India at d same time?

Me I wan learn o.

Tgirl4real: Good! Who set the process in motion? How come u didn't evolve or drop from d sky? Why did it have to take a man impregnating a woman to produce U?

Sorry to say, dis ya atheist argument is lame. I'm a Christ follower/believer, right? But that isn't the case here. I see atheists as people with too little brain to reason out a simple logic. The same reason u give to debunk theist arguments debunk yours (may be I don't know ur explanation about d existence of the earth/man yet) as well.

Talking about spiritism, could u pls prove to me scientifically how someone in Nigeria will travel to India while his body still remains here and he is holding a meeting in India at d same time?

Me I wan learn o.

Spirits do not exist. No evidence.


It is like me claiming to fly. No evidence for human body flight. None.

Please, read about evolution before we discuss.

MacDaddy01:

Spirits do not exist. No evidence.

It is like me claiming to fly. No evidence for human body flight. None.

Please, read about evolution before we discuss.

Oh spirits do exist; in varied brands too... and i do have a light-headed feeling meaning that flight is also possible cept it often ends in the nearest gutter of PHCN pole

MacDaddy01:

Please, notice that all their evidence for god is based on mystery. How can a mystery be evidence when a mystery by definition is confusion [/b]because there is no evidence/clues to explain it.

Who gave mystery that definition?

[b]Dictionary meaning

mys·ter·y 1 Pronunciation (mst-r)
n. pl. mys·ter·ies
1. One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; an enigma:

Because you can't understand doesn't mean it isn't real or it doesn't exist. It's confusing to you cos God that created you, has decided to give you a brain that can not comprehend such. Which shows that he is greater than you.

Saying something is not real because there is no evidence or clue (according to u) to support it, is true, but only scientifically due to human limitations.

Science itself is a product of the human intellect and it is limiting (of course, thank baba God that gave us the gift to think and create)

Let me debunk the Cosmological arguments for God once and for all
-Whatever the origin or cause of the universe we do not fully know. Anything that tries to explain it without empirical evidence or some data is a hypothesis.

Who formulated this theory?

This is still a limitation of your human brain.

-We can easily explain how something can come from something. We have no evidence nor reason to believe that an immaterial spirit being can create something.

-We have no evidence for spirits or invisible beings not now or ever. You cant even explain what a spirit is? Is it antimatter or gas? How would a spirit be able to create the world? One mystery used to explain the mystery of the origin of our universe!

What is antimatter? What is gas? Are they not words created from the human mind? Have u seen where the creation reasons out its creator?

lagerwhenindoubt:

Oh spirits do exist; in varied brands too... and i do have a light-headed feeling meaning that flight is also possible cept it often ends in the nearest gutter of PHCN pole

hehehehhehehee