A_K_O:

My dear brother 4Him, it appears that you have a basic problem with Oyedepo, you just don't agree with his actions, probably because you are suspicious of his motives. i can't argue with you on that because I am not well informed and i don't want to judge him.

i have no personal problems with Oyedepo, i once attended his church on campus . . . i have a problem though with anyone who twists the scriptures, inserts extra-biblical materials primarily to hoodwink the people while amassing wealth in the name of God.

A_K_O:

Of course we cannot overlook the conditions here but certainly God allows us to ask according to our will.

God never said such a thing. He says to ask according to HIS will.

You cannot take the "whatsoever ye ask for" as a blank cheque . . . what if i ask for a second wife, or a million dollars . . . is that according to His will or for me to consume upon my own lust as it says the book of James?

@4Him,

have just 1 question sir, is this an example of "fulfilling the scriptures" and "giving to the poor"? What then is the purpose of the church . . . doing "God's will" by giving education only to the rich at the expense of the gullible?

It is hard to comment on this situation because what you have presented is not the whole facts, besides, who told you the story isn't made up.

Now let me tell you the truth. What the poor need is not money but the Gospel. This is why jesus said he came to preach the Gospel to the poor. If Jesus felt what is lacking in their situation is primarily money, he would have provided them money each time he meets the poor. Giving a poor man money is like giving a hungry man fish, but giving him the gospel is like teaching him how to fish.

Oyedepo, copeland and others are not where they are today because someone gave them money, rather it is becuase of the Gospel. it is what they know that made the difference that they are teaching people everyday so others can become like them.

As to the guy in question, I think it is wrong for you to labour in church with the aim that you must benefit from what yuo did. The only time the Bible expects anyone to expect a fianancial reward from the church is if that person is involved in preaching the word in the church. To others, what you have provided must be considered as a seed, and a seed dies to the person who sows it. The harvest is between you and God who is able to resurrest that seed and give it a body according to the person's faith. I've sown a lot into my church, both back in naija and here, but my financial blessings have never come from the Church, but from other means; even though I know those blessings are linked to what I did in church.

Tayo-D:

@4HIM,
So now you are liking them to the Pharisees? Your grouse before was that they do not take care of the poor. Now that you cannot prove that to be true, you resort to another means. You just must have something to condemn. Do us a favour, kindly highlight what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees and how it applies to these people.

I will ask one thing . . . if you don't understand my point please ask me to explain. Do not twist it to mean something else simply because you want a leg to stand on.
In no way do i liken these men to the pharisees . . . i only used that example to draw a point that giving to the poor is not necessarily godliness as the pharisees did so faithfully and yet Christ condemned them.

My grouse is not that these people do not give to the poor . . . i am perplexed by the fact that you cannot line up today's church with the attitude, zeal and character of the early church led by the apostles.

One most important attribute of the pharisees that is common today is the outward show of religious fervour. Thanks to the WOFM, we have learnt to speak christianese and yet there is no inner conviction, our inner man is not regenerated. We have the largest group of church-goers in the world and YET we are so corrupt and so poor.
Is it that God is not listening to all our fervent prayers?

Tayo-D:

These kids are effectively being turned to disciples through that institution. They receive spiritual, physical and social skills under the same umbrella. I know this has changed the life of someone I know personally, and if it is only for his sake that CU is built, it is worth it. How much is CU worth compared to the human soul?!

puhlease uncle Tayo . . . your friend is lucky, his father has N300,000 per yr to spend on obtaining "spiritual" skills. What about the majority of the poor or those middle class families with 5 children who cannot afford it?
When did salvation become for the rich only?

Tayo-D:

Firstly, you are not pointing out anything, but condemning people. Paul corrected Peter and not condemn him. Secondly, your argument as far as I can see lacks any basis, scriptural or otherwise. As Christians, we are to influence every aspect of our social life including academia.

The problem is you have a mindset that will not see anything. It is not perchance that Christ said seeing they will see and not percieve. I notice that you and Joshjosh have spent the better part of the time arguing PURELY from a position of sentiments and emotions . . . i don't see you point anything out scripturally.

I have not condemned this men, i have only compared their lives with those examples of ours in the scriptures and found them wanting.

You say "as christians we are to influence every aspect of our social life including academia" . . . sir WHERE again did you see that in your bible? why didnt Christ set up a School of the Holy Ghost to influence his own generation?
Where is Apostle Peter's Apostolic University?

Tayo-D:

I told you to go find out how this man began, and know his testimony. Maybe you will have a rethink if you know him a little more. I don't know him personally, but my listening to one of his tapes while on campus, turned my life around totally.

One of my best friends' family started out with the Oyedepos in Kaduna way back in the early 1980s . . . infact it was through him i started attending Winners Chapel. So i know a little bit of background.

Tayo-D:

Again you are commiting the same error I mentioned before. Do you know this man's heart? Do you know what He's given up for his faith? Do you have an idea the sacrifices he's made in secret? Why condemn without information?

By their fruits ye shall know them.
the jews of those days did not need to read the hearts of the apostles . . . merely looking at their lifestyle they were able to decipher that these men had been with Jesus.

Tayo-D:

That Samuel's son's were desecrating the temple did not make Samuel less a Man of God. Each man will give his own individual account to God, and not through their Pastors.

Maybe you should read about why God punnished Eli and took the priesthood from him.
Perhaps you need to also read the fact that it was the error of Samuel's sons that forced the Jews to ask for a King.

what if i ask for a second wife, or a million dollars . . . is that according to His will or for me to consume upon my own lust as it says the book of James?

If you abide in His words and His words abide in you, you will know for instance that polygamy is not His will.

Better put, ask what you will in line with His word, since that is the prerequisite.

A_K_O:

If you abide in His words and His words abide in you, you will know for instance that polygamy is not His will.

Better put, ask what you will in line with His word, since that is the prerequisite.

What if i asked for $1m? How do i know that it is in line with His word?
Pls i dont know the answer to it, i am trying to learn too. Seriously.

Tayo-D:

As to the guy in question, I think it is wrong for you to labour in church with the aim that you must benefit from what yuo did. The only time the Bible expects anyone to expect a fianancial reward from the church is if that person is involved in preaching the word in the church. To others, what you have provided must be considered as a seed, and a seed dies to the person who sows it. The harvest is between you and God who is able to resurrest that seed and give it a body according to the person's faith. I've sown a lot into my church, both back in naija and here, but my financial blessings have never come from the Church, but from other means; even though I know those blessings are linked to what I did in church.

This concept of financial seed sowing . . . please where is it in your bible?
I am tired of extra-biblical twaddle. The sheeple have been decieved for too long.

There are millions of rich men who have never been near a church before . . . what seed did they sow?
There are christians who have been "sowing seeds" for centuries and yet will die poor . . . what is wrong with their "harvest"?

@4Him,

This concept of financial seed sowing . . . please where is it in your bible?

thanks for asking.

2 Corinthians 9:6-15 6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; 13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; 14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. Can you see it now or you still need to be spoon fed with basic knowledge of God's word.

good point uncle Tayo . . . my next question . . . what did that verse mean by "fruits of righteousness"?

It is not just enough to quote a verse that contains the words "seeds", "sow" and then think that you can twist it in the same fashion that the WOFM does.

While you are answering that . . . lets look at the scriptures a little more closely.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Look at the two phrases in highlights . . . the bible says to GIVE according as YOU PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART . . . not according to the next seed offering your pastor demands. . .

It says again NOT OUT OF NECESSITY . . . when you give SIMPLY because you are expecting to reap "financial reward" you defeat the purpose of giving as explained in verse 7.

12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

what were the "wants of the saints"? A school for the rich and political elite?

13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

That verse makes me smile. Just a wonder you quoted it and highlighted the very same phrase that struck me.
While the apostles in the book of acts brought their goods, sold it and distributed to the needy . . . ur own spiritual men of Gawd are busy amassing from the poor and giving only to themselves. Excellent quote!

@4HIM,

good point uncle Tayo

Who is your uncle? If anything, call me your daddy cause I have a son by your name.

. . . my next question . . .  what did that verse mean by "fruits of righteousness"?

The fruits of your righteousness in that context is the result of what you did with your seed (the money in this case). Paul clarified it subsequently, but here is another translation to make it cleare. I'll embolden the fruits of your righteousness

9:10 And God, who supplies seed for the sower and bread to eat, will also supply you with all the seed you need and will make it grow and produce a rich harvest from your generosity.
9:11 He will always make you rich enough to be generous at all times, so that many will thank God for your gifts which they receive from us.  
9:12 For this service you perform not only meets the needs of God's people, but also produces an outpouring of gratitude to God.  
9:13 And because of the proof which this service of yours brings, many will give glory to God for your loyalty to the gospel of Christ, which you profess, and for your generosity in sharing with them and everyone else.  
9:14 And so with deep affection they will pray for you because of the extraordinary grace God has shown you.  
9:15 Let us thank God for his priceless gift!   I assume the passage explains itself.

It is not just enough to quote a verse that contains the words "seeds", "sow" and then think that you can twist it in the same fashion that the WOFM does.

My guy, this passage's reference to seed is clearly taking about money, kudi, owo, cash, ego, mammon or whatever you choose to call it. Besides, didn't jesus say until you understand the parable of the sower you could never grasp anything of God's word?

Tayo-D:

My guy, this passage's reference to seed is clearly taking about money, kudi, owo, cash, ego, mammon or whatever you choose to call it. Besides, didn't jesus say until you understand the parable of the sower you could never grasp anything of God's word?

not exactly so. That is what we were taught growing up . . . it is a fundamental principle that we do "sow" in terms of money when we give our tithes and offerings but not in the way that the WOFM preaches it. Cain gave a "seed offering" too, why was it rejected?

The bible does not teach that the way to recieve financial blessing is by giving "seed offerings" . . .
We are not told anywhere that apostles were blessed based on the size of their "seed offerings".

Your translation seeks to obliterate the entire purpose of Paul's message in 2 Cor 9 . . . look at verse 11 for instance . . . the KJV said nothing about making you rich in terms of money . . . it talks about being "enriched to all bountifulness" . . . it can be spiritual or physical whereas your new translation paints a completely one-sided, "it must be talking about money" view.

Gal 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

How do you sow kudi to the spirit?

If you read parts of the Acts of the apostles . . . several brethren "sowed" to the ministry in their "service" (a large part of sowing that is relegated to the background in favour of greed), some sowed by giving their houses as places for fellowship to the brethren . . . Dorcas made dresses for the sisters . . . she probably didnt have plenty of money but that she had she "sowed" from a willing heart and without necessity to the comfort of the brethren.

@4HIM,

Will you stop that already? I just showed you a gospel truth that you did not know until 5 minutes ago, and now you want to  lecture me or others about it. Go meditate on it first and let it chnage your life before you attempt to teach it. What you are saying now is nothing but head knowledge. My talking about this is borne out of practice and testimony of what difference that truth has made.

Look at the two phrases in highlights . . . the bible says to GIVE according as YOU PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART . . . not according to the next seed offering your pastor demands. .

Even when you are asked to sow, it must be borne out of willingness, which is why Paul said the disciples should put aside every sunday as God has prospered each person. Have you read that before in scripture?

It says again NOT OUT OF NECESSITY . . . when you give SIMPLY because you are expecting to reap "financial reward" you defeat the purpose of giving as explained in verse 7.

This scrpture does not in anyway connote what you are saying. This is simply saying don't give just to save face or grudginly, it must be done out of a willing heart. That is the sacrifice God accepts.

People are encouraged to give out of their needs, though willingly. The widow's mite clearly comes to mind . have you ever read 2 Cor. 8:2 - How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

You should never give without expecting in return because you not only short-change yourself, but you make the word of non-effect. Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Phillipians 4:15 -Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. That we are communicating with God about giving and receiving and being blessed thereby is not our fault.

You asked before what's been happening to the seed of those Christians who gave with nothing to show for it. May I ask you to do that study yourself and get back to me in a while about your findings. I shouldn't be spoon-feeding you. You are supposed to study to be approved.

Daddy Tayo-D, i am digesting your last post . . . you do have a point i must concede. 

I will put this question to someone more knowledgeable than myself and get back to you very soon.
Thanks for the insight.

whats the big deal about banks been at canaanland
did anyone attend church in the banking hall?
there are several schools and ofcourse students! at canaanland
not to speak of the employees,
did you ever think that the church won't grow in wealth that banks
will fall over themselves just to get an account
you ain't seen nothing yet

@4HIM,

Daddy Tayo-D, i am digesting your last post . . . you do have a point i must concede.

that's my boy .

Anyway, while some have accused you of several things on this topic, I know you really don't have hatred in your heart, though I wonder what's gwan with your head sometimes . My advise is to prayerfully consider this matter. I believe it is the devil's work to keep this truth away from the Church. The Bible is clear that when you have abundance, you will be able to participate in every good work.

That being said, I am not unaware of the excesses in the Body of Christ regarding this isue. Many simply do not teach the whole counsel regarding money, and run off with just some light that they have without balancing the whole message. The bottom line is that godliness with contentment is great gain. contentment on the other hand is not a factor of riches or poverty, but of the heart.

I pray the Lord continually help us all to not just do the right thing, but do it right to the praise and glory of His name.

And let me add that before you consult that person, please do this study yourself lest someone feeds you with their own doctrines based on prejudice.

Tayo-D:

And let me add that before you consult that person, please do this study yourself lest someone feeds you with their own doctrines based on prejudice.

You bet i will be giving this a close scrutiny myself before i speak on it ever again.

I dont hate Oyedepo like you rightly pointed out, i used to attend that church when i had the chance back home . . . sometimes i just think that there are some things that are not biblically sound that we all tend to swallow simply because "Daddy GO" said it without studying it ourselves. That being said, i simply took the part that was a blessing to me and left the rest out.

The church is not 100% perfect . . . God is going to perfect us at His appointed time but here a little there a little until the whole leaven is lumped. The enemy is going to sow tares at this end time . . . and sadly our churches are churning out "christians" who remain faithful only as long as their bank balance is in the positive.

@4HIM,

I don't hate Oyedepo like you rightly pointed out, i used to attend that church when i had the chance back home . . . sometimes i just think that there are some things that are not biblically sound that we all tend to swallow simply because "Daddy GO" said it without studying it ourselves. That being said, i simply took the part that was a blessing to me and left the rest out.

The church is not 100% perfect . . . God is going to perfect us at His appointed time but here a little there a little until the whole leaven is lumped. The enemy is going to sow tares at this end time . . . and sadly our churches are churning out "christians" who remain faithful only as long as their bank balance is in the positive.

In this you are right. I do not agree with some of his doctrines like feet washing and the drinking of oil. But I believe in my heart that those errors are with a sincere heart. We are not perfect, but we are walking, and not working towards it.

Tayo-D Feet Washing and Anointing Oil is biblical. Everything we do in Winners Chapel is biblical, so passing judgement on God-ordained ministries like ours, it is dangerous. Miriam despised her brother Moses and became leprous, so mind what u say about the prophet of God. You can't doubt the proofs of God's Acts in Canaanland. Check John 13:4 - 10 for feet washing,

@ teekay27

Guy I feel u on dat one. Whatever people want to believe is up to them. As a human being in general what you believe is up to u. As christains, we all know that whatever you believe is what works for u. I'm a christain, not a fanatic but I don't think its up to us humans to decide what is right or not right as per biblical principles are concerned. The bible is a manual for human life if some people have tried the principles in it and it has worked and if it can work for some it can work for all. Some people just ain't doin it right. As for what the church does, anyone who has any complaints should go and report to God himself and don't even try to badmouth the church or the pastor cos the repercursion might not be too nice. The pastor doesn't even have to hear it. God is always on the lookut for his prophets and whoever is against them is against him. I don't think anybody wants to be against God so people let's try and watch what we say.

4Him, the bank is not inside the church but rather is in Canaanland premises n moreso the schools. Take time and check the website www.winnerscanaanland.org, the schools: Kingdom Heritage, Faith Academy and Covenant University are all in different places not in church. If you dont respect the wisdom of God in this man's life (Bishop) pls come home (Nija) and learn how to be filled with the wisdom of God and profit with it.

What if i asked for $1m? How do i know that it is in line with His word?
Please i don't know the answer to it, i am trying to learn too. Seriously.

I think you answered that earlier. What do you need the million dollars for? To consumate your lusts? Is it a need or a want? God has already promised to supply our needs so if your need reaches $1million, He will give you. If it is a want, you must check your motives. Thats my view. May the good Lord continue to give us all the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the present complete knowledge of Him that the eyes of our understanding may be further enlightened.

@teekay27,

Tayo-D Feet Washing and Anointing Oil is biblical. Everything we do in Winners Chapel is biblical, so passing judgement on God-ordained ministries like ours, it is dangerous. Miriam despised her brother Moses and became leprous, so mind what u say about the prophet of God. You can't doubt the proofs of God's Acts in Canaanland. Check John 13:4 - 10 for feet washing,

See, you have gone overboard with this. Are you trying to frighten me by quoting the issue of Maariam and Moses? Under what Testament do you think you live in? You do a great diservice to your cause when you talk like this. Someone was saying earlier that the Bishop will curse some peopl, and I can't but wonder if the person said that out of ignorance or if the Bishop really practice cursing as a way of life. What does your NT say about cursing your enemy? To whom belongs a recompense to the wicked? What did Jesus tell his disciples who wanted to call down fire from heaven on those who oppose them? You need to move into the NT and stop living by the old.

As for washing of feet and drinking of oil, you can never find it a s a doctrine in the Bible. A doctrine must be built on a line upon line, precept upon precept. Do us a favour and kindly show us by walking us through the Bible, how feet washing should become a doctrine, same for drinking of oil.

I'll tell you what doctrines can be built from that passage in John 13. The doctrines include humility, servitude and forgiveness of sins. these can be gleaned from that passage while finding a lot of other passages that teach those same principles. You cannot do same for feet washing.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bishop and I am a fan who appreciates the gift of god upon his life. However in these two matters, I believe he got it wrong. The only ritual we should have in the NT today is the Lord's table.

its highly unfortunate that peeps like @him make suggestions and
allegations without objectively assessing the situation of things.
i joined this forum cos i was convinced the members were matured folks
capable of debating issues logically and without resorting to
bias or pure sentiments. canaanland is a community: with a
primary school, a secondary school and a tertiary institution it
became imperative for banks to operate there. it might interest
our dear @him to know that the banks there are not owned
by the bishop. UBA, Oceanic and Spring bank are some of the banks
operating there. it pure common sense for banks to be in canaanland!
were we we when the bishop had one coat and two shirts?! but now
its cool for us to lay back and cast stones. May God forgive us all.

@c-wizzy

I'm totally feelin u. All those who complain that the church makin too much money don't really know what they are talkin about. The church started from somewhere they don't know about they are just talkin about what they think they know. That church is almost 30 years old it is only a fool that would remain at one level for that long.

omoashion:

@c-wizzy

I'm totally feelin u. All those who complain that the church makin too much money don't really know what they are talkin about. The church started from somewhere they don't know about they are just talkin about what they think they know. That church is almost 30 years old it is only a fool that would remain at one level for that long.

The question is why should that level only be in money, physical and other material measures? Why not changing and increasing levels of consistent, systematic charitable works and evangelism/missions to rural areas

@ Tayo-D
Am not a member of winners but my sister is, so i can say that i know a little bit about winners. I don't think anointing oil is a doctrine in winners because a doctrine is something that has a foundation , i also don't think that bishop oyedepo has ever preached that its the anointing oil that saves you and not the blood of Jesus. We don't know if anointing oil worked for Bishop Oyedepo and that 's why he's sharing it with fellow believers, we don't know if he encourages anointing oil under the unction of the holy spirit and if he's under the unction of the holy spirit who am i to condemn his use of anointing oil. Anointing oil doesnt save, its just a medium.

Am sure that if this was the time of Jesus Christ and he was doing all the miracles he did in the bible right now, a lot of people will condemn the miracle where he spat on mud and rubbed it on the blind man's eye. Or just imagine if Jesus never did that miracle and one day Pastor Adeboye or Brother Gbile Akanni spits on sand and rubs it on a blind man's eye, a lot of people will condemn them.

Also Tayo-D, am not casting stones because i know from what you've written so far that u truly have an understanding and knowledge about the word of God.

@4HIM we have to be careful about the things we say about men of God, if am living in a street or in an estate and there is a church in that estate, is it bad? So if Canaanland is an estate and there are schools, banks, restaurant and a church in the estate whats bad about that? We really need to be careful because who am i to judge.

Also as christians we need to know the word of God so that when we hear or see something contrary to the word of God in Church, on tv, in nairaland or where ever we would be able to decipher.

The ways of God are not the ways of men. It takes a lot of spiritual understanding to know how God operates

hhmmmmnnn, una de try o.
but why this highly charged religious thread come dey politics section na?

, well let no one pass judgment on what though has happened . Before it happened God knows, why it was happening God knows and the cops that died God knows. though it was a sadden incident. Let brotherly loves continue

@sorich

Am sure that if this was the time of Jesus Christ and he was doing all the miracles he did in the bible right now, a lot of people will condemn the miracle where he spat on mud and rubbed it on the blind man's eye. Or just imagine if Jesus never did that miracle and one day Pastor Adeboye or Brother Gbile Akanni spits on sand and rubs it on a blind man's eye, a lot of people will condemn them.

I have tried using read only on this thread but time without number I kept seeing things that calls for a response.
Like the quote above; sure Jesus spat on sand and rubbed it on a blind man. Now let me ask how many times did
He use the same method? Check all other characters in the Bible which of them are always using one means. Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Peter, Paul just name them, you can not find such distortion. Bible is an open book, the earlier we begin to read it for ourselves the better.

JoshJosh,
please I need to talk to you about the solar thingy.

You promised to send more links.
You might want to send me an e-mail buttermint1973 at yahoo dot codotuk.
I wil appreciate if u can
Cheers

hi , i think many people are against the church of god. afterall they think churches are to be poor but forget to know that without money you cannot do anything, even go to school. may god have mercy on peoples ignorance.

@segun02
it baffles me when folks turn pundits on issues they dont
know s*** about!  cos YOU DONT KNOW about the charitable
activities that go on at the church doesnt mean the church
doesnt embark on such  deeds. dont blame the church for
your ignorance instead look in the bloody mirror! by the way,
who made you the umpire in such moral isssues? why dont
you let God decide who is or isnt righteous while you expend
your energy on something more constructive. peace