Introduction to the Angels



Since ancient times the Angels have been venerated with great respect. With the rise of New Age and Occultism comes an urgent need to understand these celestial benefactors in the light of our Catholic faith and tradition.

Angels are pure spirits, sinless servants of God. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" Heb. 1:13-14. The Angels are comprised of 9 choirs; Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. Particularly powerful are the 7 great Archangels spoken of in Apoc VIII:2 "And I saw 7 Angels standing in the presence of God".

When Luciel (Bearer of Light) rebelled against God and became Lucifer (Prince of Darkness) one entire choir of angels followed him and was lost. Many angels from other choirs also followed him in his rebellion. "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels: And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apoc 12:7-9

7 angels from the second lowest choir were so outraged by the terrible offense to the dignity of the Most High they positioned themselves between the Throne of God and the infernal offenders, prepared to defend the honor and dignity of God, in spite of their inferiority to Lucifer and his legions. God was so moved by their heroic love he elevated them, enriching them with many new gifts and graces. So lofty was their new office that they were given the privilege of standing eternally before the Throne of God to carry out the Divine Will. "And from the throne proceeded lightnings and voices and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Apoc 4:5. "Bless the Lord all ye His angels: you that are mighty in strength and execute His word, hearkening to the voice of His orders." Ps 102:20

The names of the 3 most commonly invoked Archangels, St. Michael, St. Raphael and St. Gabriel are found in Sacred Scripture. Unlike sects tied to a Bible-only understanding of God and creation we have sacred tradition, the writings of the saints and private revelation to expand our understanding and enlighten us.

In 1050 St. Celias made an exhaustive study of the approved writings of the Early Church Fathers up to the 4th century. In this way we have come to know the names of all 7 of these mighty Archangels, the meaning of their names and the sacrament each is patron of.

Since the 4th century these 7 Archangels have been honored in the Roman Martyrology. In Mettenheim Bavaria is the Catholic Church dedicated to the Seven Great Archangels. It is now over 250 years old. On the 18th of October 1720, this church was dedicated. Each of the 7 Archangels was mentioned by name in the consecration prayer by Rev. Franz Wagensberg, Bishop of Salzberg. Inside the church are 7 altars, each dedicated to one of the Archangels with a statue of the Archangel it was dedicated to. The dedication by a legitimate Catholic Bishop is additional proof of the correctness of the names and an encouragement to active devotion to these angels!

Pope Pius V said in his Bull to the Spanish Clergy, permitting and encouraging the worship of the seven archangels: "One cannot exalt too much these seven rectors of the world, figured by the seven planets, as it is consoling to our century to witness by the grace of God the cult of these seven ardent lights, and of these seven stars reassuming all its luster in the Christian republic." (Les Sept Esprits et l'Histoire de leur Culte; De Mirville's 2nd memoir addressed to the academy. Vol. II. p. 358.)

Michelangelo was ordered to adorn the church dedicated to Mary and the Seven Archangels, with a fresco of 7 Archangels on the altar, in Rome in the 16th century. In addition, the liturgy to Seven Archangels has been confirmed and was still in use around 1800 and has not been abolished, only it is not being practiced.

Below is the fresco of Mary amidst the Seven Archangels, in St Maria Degli Angeli in Rome from the web page: http://www.santamariadegliangeliroma.it.
Originally, during the reign of Pope Gregor XIII it was intended to build seven separate chapels there, dedicated to each of the Seven Archangels.

What is an archangel, and who are they? In truth, an archangel is any angel who has risen above the generic rank of an angel. Among the archangels, seven “Archangels of the Throne” (although this term is not used in canonical texts) hold the highest ranks in the order—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Orifiel, Zarachiel, Uriel, and Simiel. These privileged angels may also stand or kneel before the Throne of YHVH, the divine presence. Let’s look at the stories of each of these archangels.
Michael: The Angel Prince of Israel

The name of the Archangel Michael means “the one who is as God/YHVH.” In almost all angelic lore, regardless of text or denomination, Michael is the most powerful of all the angels. In human terms, Michael is often considered the “General of the Angels.” This stems from the fact that, during the war in Heaven, Michael stepped forth and led the loyal angelic ranks into a fierce battle against the would-be usurper Lucifer and his rebel angels.

The Archangel Michael is a natural leader, and assumes this role across various planes of existence. His authority is not solely restricted to the angelic ranks, but extends into the realms of both Heaven and Earth. Michael is the Chief of the Order of Virtues and the Prince of the “Presence.” He is also the patron angel of righteousness, mercy, justice, repentance, and sanctification. He is the natural enemy of all that is evil and unjust. However, Michael’s most prestigious titles were bestowed upon him as a result of his loyalty and devoted service in the war in Heaven, for which YHVH appointed Michael as the holy ruler of the fourth level of Heaven and declared him the Angelic Prince of Israel. In addition, Michael serves as one of the Ten Angels of the Holy Sefiroth.

Although Michael is the holder of many angelic titles, his most well-known title is that of “The Conqueror of Satan” because his role is to do battle with the great adversary of YHVH, Lucifer. The word Satan actually means “adversary,” a title given to Lucifer (and many other fallen angels) after the war and his fall from Heaven. In art, Michael is most commonly portrayed in his role as The Conqueror of Satan.

If ever there were a patron warrior angel, it would certainly be the Archangel Michael. His role as an archangel has long been one of battle, and he is almost always depicted holding a sword or spear. While Michael is benevolent in nature, his role as a warrior often requires him to be wrathful as well. Judaic lore credits him with the destruction of the ancient city of Babylon, although he acted under the divine orders of YHVH.
Gabriel: The Divine Trumpeter of Heaven

The name Gabriel means “My strength is from God/YHVH” (although it is sometimes interpreted as “Hero of God/YHVH”). In the angelic lore of both the Muslim and Judeo-Christian traditions, the Archangel Gabriel is second in rank only to the mighty Archangel Michael. In the biblical Old Testament, he is one of only two angels referred to specifically by name (the other being Michael).

Gabriel’s angelic role is often thought of as YHVH’s announcer, or as Heaven’s messenger or trumpeter, which has led some to consider Gabriel as a Judeo-Christian equivalent to the Greco-Roman messenger god Hermes/Mercury. But while acting as a divine messenger/announcer is among his responsibilities, the entirety of his collective roles is far more complex. He is certainly more than just an angel who blows a trumpet, which is a common misperception.

The Archangel Gabriel’s nature is as fascinating as it is unique. When compared to his fellow archangels, Gabriel displays an amazingly balanced set of roles. These balanced, and sometimes paradoxical, attributes give him a very unique and somewhat dualistic nature. Gabriel assumes many roles that could be, at first glance, perceived as contradictory (or, at best, very uncomplimentary). For example, Gabriel is the patron angel of both mercy and vengeance. He is also the patron angel of death and resurrection and of annunciation (telling) and revelation (revealing). In all these cases, Gabriel seems to be performing tasks contrary to one another. However, this can also be seen as a metaphor for the divine balance that allows contrary forces to exist harmoniously (light and dark, life and death, etc.).

In Islamic angelic lore, Gabriel is the patron angel of Truth. According to the Qur’an, the dust thrown up by Gabriel’s holy steed found its way into the mouth of the golden calf the Jews erected during the absence of Moses. When this occurred, the blasphemous statue suddenly became animated as though it were alive. In the lore of Judaism, Gabriel was the one tasked with raining down fiery destruction upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were doomed for their rampant debauchery.

Gabriel also plays an important role in Christian mythology. In the New Testament (Luke 1:26–38), Gabriel is sent to Nazareth to deliver a message to the Virgin Mary that she will give birth to Jesus the messiah. This scene of the New Testament is referred to in Christianity as “The Annunciation,” and serves to solidify the general view of Gabriel as the messenger of YHVH. However, this is a rather narrow perception of the Archangel Gabriel when one considers the various other titles he holds.
Raphael: Protector of the Eden Tree

The name of Raphael, who is commonly considered the third highest in angelic rank, means “God has healed.” The oldest known text to mention him by name is the Book of Tobit, which is not considered part of the Judeo-Christian canons and whose validity has long been a matter of religious debate.

According to the Book of Tobit, the Archangel Raphael was charged with the task of being the guide and guardian protector of Tobias, the son of Tobit, when he journeyed to the mighty ancient city of Nineveh. In this role, Raphael assumed the guise of a mortal human so as not to cause Tobias alarm and did not reveal his true form until after they reached Nineveh. Once they arrived, Raphael uncased his wings and explained to Tobias that he was one of the Seven Holy Angels who stood/knelt before the throne of YHVH.

As with his fellow archangels, Michael and Gabriel, Raphael is known by a variety of titles, names, and roles. First and foremost, he is known as the Protector of the Eden Tree for his role as the guardian of the sacred tree after the transgression of Adam and Eve (who ate its fruit after being forbidden to do so by YHVH). In addition, he is also the Guardian of the Western Horizon and the Prince of the Second Level of Heaven. The Archangel Raphael is also the patron angel of light, love, happiness, and prayer. A member of almost every possible angelic order, he is a Cherub as well as a Seraph and stands as one of the Ten Angels of the Holy Sefiroth.

As his name suggests, Raphael is widely considered an angel of healing, medicine, science, learning, and knowledge. There is a flip side to this part of Raphael’s nature, however, and one day his time for healing others will reach its end. When this time comes, Raphael’s attribute of healing will turn to one of destruction, and he will appear ominously as one of the Seven Angels of the Apocalypse.
Orifiel

The name Orifiel is a rather odd one, and it is often translated as either “My neck is God/YHVH” or “I am the neck of God/YHVH.” Above all, the Archangel Orifiel is the patron angel of the forests/wilderness. His domain is over the uncultivated, wild areas of the earth, which he does his best to protect against the ravages of evil men and urban development. (The ancient Jewish tribes, who were widely nomadic, greatly opposed the rise of cities and the concept of land ownership.)

Since Orifiel frequents those places that have remained untouched since God/YHVH created them, his usual haunts are said to be in deserts and oceans. This is likely because both are places to which men rarely try to make any permanent claim of ownership. Orifiel is considered the angelic enemy of greed, deception, and worldliness.
Zarachiel: Angel of Prayer

The name Zarachiel means “The command of God/YHVH.” Zarachiel is also commonly referred to (especially in the Roman Catholic tradition) as Salaphiel, which has the somewhat similar meaning of “The one who prays to God/YHVH.” No matter what name you call him, he is the patron angel of prayer.

In artistic depictions, the Archangel Zarachiel is most frequently portrayed in the act of his patron role and, interestingly enough, as male in gender (which is somewhat odd since angels are generally thought to have no specific gender or sex). The Archangel Zarachiel, usually shown assuming various states of prayer with his hands folded and his head bowed reverently, is credited with teaching humankind the proper methods by which to pray to God/YHVH.
Uriel: Angelic Light of God

The name Uriel (sometimes spelled Oriel) means “Fire of God/YHVH” or “Light of God/YHVH.” As with his fellow archangel, Raphael, the oldest mention of Uriel’s name is found in an apocryphal text, the Book of Enoch. In this text, Uriel is specifically referred to as the “leader of them all [the angels].” This suggests that, at least at some point, Uriel outranked Michael in the angelic hierarchy.

In the text, Uriel reveals to Enoch the truth of the workings of the planets and other celestial bodies. Uriel is tasked with the keeping of the mysteries of existence, deep within the depths of the earth and well beyond the known recesses of the cosmos. Of the seven “Throne Archangels,” Uriel is said to assume the closest position to it. Uriel is closely associated with the Sun (as his name would suggest) and in ancient times he was said to be the angelic guardian of the “great light” as it passed into the dark realms thought to exist between sunset and sunrise. During the daylight, Uriel exercises his greatest influence during the second hour of sunlight.

You may notice that there is not a section that elaborates on the Archangel Simiel. Unfortunately, little information survives about this particular archangel (especially when it comes to Christian texts). This is mainly due to the fact that in 745 C.E., a council of the Roman Catholic Church deemed that Simiel’s name should be removed from their authorized list of angels that were fit for veneration. It also appears that there were suspicions that Simiel was one of the rebel angels, and therefore among the Fallen.

Many people misunderstand the nature of the order of archangels, believing them to be only a group of warrior angels. While some certainly are warriors, the title of archangel is actually given to any of the highest-ranking angels.

@Malawian

Malawian(m):
What is an archangel, and who are they? In truth, an archangel is any angel who has risen above the generic rank of an angel. Among the archangels, seven “Archangels of the Throne” [size=18pt](although this term is not used in canonical texts)[/size] hold the highest ranks in the order—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Orifiel, Zarachiel, Uriel, and Simiel. These privileged angels may also stand or kneel before the Throne of YHVH, the divine presence. Let’s look at the stories of each of these archangels.
Michael: The Angel Prince of Israel

you see the bolded above at the beggining of your post? that is the flaw that knocked all your post down! like statistics,a wrong piece of data will definately affect the result,no matter how rigourous you have work,until it is corrected, see the flaw again ''although this term is not used in canonical texts'' we deal exclusively with the sacred scriptures, and not pagan scriptures, and that is the tonic that has sustained the tread till this page(15).

only if you can work within the constitution of 'only the sacred scriptures', then we can discuss and make the tread more imformative! thanks for your time.

free123: Mr Barrister
i dont know why u see me as a catholic
for the records, i am not a catholic and i do not believe in purgatory or praying for the dead. i do not worship under any denomination whatsoever as that is division in the body of Christ - which i know JW actively participate in.

be that as it may, i recognize any part of the bible that any organization gets rights. just as in the case of tithes that JW got right but other falsehood from JW, i stay clear off.

Reference this when u talk to me about ur lies.

it is easy to say that you are a none denominational church person, but what if you knowledge of the truth is wrong?

Will that not be the same as some that satan has deceived?

2timothy 2:3,4 says:

"this is good and fine in the eyes of our saviour God, whose will it is that all sort of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of "truth""

what is truth?

Jesus in prayer to his father says :

John 17:17:

sanctity them by means of the "truth" your word is truth"
^^^

God's word is the truth.

What if at the end of isolating your self you still get the "truth" wrong will you still be saved?

truthislight:

what do you mean by this ^^^

He should not run because of chukwudi.

frosbel:


But MAN was also made a little lower than the angels , no ?

Is he then an angel by implication ?

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8


Jesus Christ is not an angel or the second person of any trinity, he is who he says he is and who the apostles confirmed that he is.

Jesus never said he was once angel Michael and neither did the apostles.

Jesus never said he was the second person of a bogus trinity and neither did his apostles think he was.


Let us examine words used by both Christ and the apostles to define him, not made up theories that are at best assumptions based not on fact but wishful thinking.

JOHN 4:25-26 NKJ
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


JOHN 10:36 NKJ
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?

JOHN 17:1-2 NKJ
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.


"Then he asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter replied, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

" We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. " - John 6:69

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." - John 1:49

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5




Jesus Christ was not , is not and will never be angel Michael , two totally and different beings.


Titles used :

1. Son of GOD
2. Son of MAN
3. Messiah
4. Christ
5. Holy One
6. MAN Jesus the mediator between God and MAN

Then who is the "Angel of the LORD" that called Himself WONDERFUL see: Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You? And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful? Judges 13:17-18

The hebrew word for "wonderful" in Judges 13:18 is the very same Hebrew word for "Wonderful" in isaiah 9:6. see:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

You people have pretendly skiped several verses i presented here, bringing up blind arguements so that we cannot achieve the clear meaning of these verses.
@Oahray started a good work, but you people are so scared to see the end of it hence raised up issues that has nothing to do with the aim of this thread like accusing JW dictrines, SDA doctrine etc. Lets face the OT verses and see who this Angel is. The way you people are difining the Angel of God is not the way we see it in these Scriptures i presented.
Ok, we will hold on to Hebrew one. But can you people be so honest and tell us who this Unique Angel is? I will do repost if you want.

Malawian: pls, archs are nothing but special ministers of God. like you have minister of defence, minister of information, etc. there are seven archs. micheal is an arch, so is rapheal, gabriel, uriel and three others i can remember now. if not for the book of tobit, we wouldnt even have known about rapheal. it probably is those seven archs that are called the seven spirits of God. Jesus christ is God. the physical embodiment of God. now to my own understanding, since we are made in the image and likeness of God, i say the form is non other than the body, soul and spirit. while jesus is the body, the holy spirit is the spirit whhile the father is the soul.

another one!

Trinity and tradition.

Tobit is a book that contradict the OT and NT on various diver issues and is not part of the Jews OT and the NT are epistle of christ apostles.

So, on this issue Tobit is a no contest of an authority.
Peace

Malawian: Introduction to the Angels



Since ancient times the Angels have been venerated with great respect. With the rise of New Age and Occultism comes an urgent need to understand these celestial benefactors in the light of our Catholic faith and tradition.

Angels are pure spirits, sinless servants of God. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" Heb. 1:13-14. The Angels are comprised of 9 choirs; Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. Particularly powerful are the 7 great Archangels spoken of in Apoc VIII:2 "And I saw 7 Angels standing in the presence of God".

When Luciel (Bearer of Light) rebelled against God and became Lucifer (Prince of Darkness) one entire choir of angels followed him and was lost. Many angels from other choirs also followed him in his rebellion. "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels: And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apoc 12:7-9

7 angels from the second lowest choir were so outraged by the terrible offense to the dignity of the Most High they positioned themselves between the Throne of God and the infernal offenders, prepared to defend the honor and dignity of God, in spite of their inferiority to Lucifer and his legions. God was so moved by their heroic love he elevated them, enriching them with many new gifts and graces. So lofty was their new office that they were given the privilege of standing eternally before the Throne of God to carry out the Divine Will. "And from the throne proceeded lightnings and voices and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Apoc 4:5. "Bless the Lord all ye His angels: you that are mighty in strength and execute His word, hearkening to the voice of His orders." Ps 102:20

The names of the 3 most commonly invoked Archangels, St. Michael, St. Raphael and St. Gabriel are found in Sacred Scripture. Unlike sects tied to a Bible-only understanding of God and creation we have sacred tradition, the writings of the saints and private revelation to expand our understanding and enlighten us.

In 1050 St. Celias made an exhaustive study of the approved writings of the Early Church Fathers up to the 4th century. In this way we have come to know the names of all 7 of these mighty Archangels, the meaning of their names and the sacrament each is patron of.

Since the 4th century these 7 Archangels have been honored in the Roman Martyrology. In Mettenheim Bavaria is the Catholic Church dedicated to the Seven Great Archangels. It is now over 250 years old. On the 18th of October 1720, this church was dedicated. Each of the 7 Archangels was mentioned by name in the consecration prayer by Rev. Franz Wagensberg, Bishop of Salzberg. Inside the church are 7 altars, each dedicated to one of the Archangels with a statue of the Archangel it was dedicated to. The dedication by a legitimate Catholic Bishop is additional proof of the correctness of the names and an encouragement to active devotion to these angels!

Pope Pius V said in his Bull to the Spanish Clergy, permitting and encouraging the worship of the seven archangels: "One cannot exalt too much these seven rectors of the world, figured by the seven planets, as it is consoling to our century to witness by the grace of God the cult of these seven ardent lights, and of these seven stars reassuming all its luster in the Christian republic." (Les Sept Esprits et l'Histoire de leur Culte; De Mirville's 2nd memoir addressed to the academy. Vol. II. p. 358.)

Michelangelo was ordered to adorn the church dedicated to Mary and the Seven Archangels, with a fresco of 7 Archangels on the altar, in Rome in the 16th century. In addition, the liturgy to Seven Archangels has been confirmed and was still in use around 1800 and has not been abolished, only it is not being practiced.

Below is the fresco of Mary amidst the Seven Archangels, in St Maria Degli Angeli in Rome from the web page: http://www.santamariadegliangeliroma.it.
Originally, during the reign of Pope Gregor XIII it was intended to build seven separate chapels there, dedicated to each of the Seven Archangels.

Did you start reading this thread from the beginning? Didn't you see some questions yet to be answered? You can help us and clear thoses scriptures. The formar should be treated before the latter.

true2god: Enof Bible verses hav been quoted on the earlier post. Dont turn a blind eye on them. Dnt close the holy Bible from me to read to open the watchtower magazines for me to read.

Which one have you treated clear?

free123: Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

Well, main looking at this thread, you will agree with the bold. As for me, i can testify one thing i know about them.
The Only christian group that sincerely follow Christ word no matter how small that village is, you must find them preaching from house to house.
When I was living in a very Big city. The JW's are the only group that have ever come to knock on my door to share the word of God.

When i relocated to a very Small village where you cannot even find a bank or supper market, This same JW's are still the only Christians that go everywhere.
Sure You can find a cathedral in smallest village, but you will never see one of thier member preaching in the street. Then How can people know Know Christ? Is the church building enough?

Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

I do not know your denomination, and i don't think is important in this thread, we are here to discusse bible why derail the thread with accusation? Please scroll back and answer those scriptures
I am learning things here!

BARRISTERS: @free123
i still repeat,where are the monies donated by relatives of dead ones to 'purgate' the soul of their dead loved ones which your fraudulent catholic priests are using to settle abuse cases,while they abandone those deads in a particular stage that they needed promotion to another stage. awon ole! why are you angry?



na wao, free123 is angry o! see am now! who wan make am cry, ok pele!

My broda, you have been doing a great job, but i will advise if we truelly want to achieve the aim of this thread
We should put unnecessery arguement aside. Lets face the point. I too want to know who that Angel the scripture told about is/was.

@frosbel,

im putting it to you (now) that you have erred!(as you have just demostrated here)

the question i posed to you earlier ,i quoted hebrews 2:7,9 in my quote,of which you 'selected' along with your reply,this way;

BARRISTERS: @frosbel

your post is too dry, read heb 2:7,9 where it is said that 'jesus was even made lower than the angels at some point' you are even making a case that he has always been greater than the angels but what about heb 2:7,9 [/b]above.are you going to cry?

see your reply below,where you deliberately delete verse 9,that contains the point you are disputing,

[b]frosbel;..“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7, You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8, and put everything under their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8.

Now, can you tell us 'why' you felt uncomfortable with verse 9, by removing it completely, after selecting it from my post as the area that you are responding to?

is it that verse 9 stood 'gidigba' in your way?

see it again,it has poped up again

hebrews 2:9;

9[size=14pt] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels [/size]for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

why i quoted this (vs9)is not to discredit jesus who is already exaulted, and now better than the messangers/angels in the sense that he inherit a seperior name.(heb 1:4).

but to get an answer, now frosbel,answer me this;....was 'jesus ever made lower than the angels at some point in time?'

you are making a case that he has always been greater than the angels but what about heb 2:7,9

pls stop directing trinitarian questions to me,im against trinity and will always be,direct them to chukwudi44,true2God and Ubenedictus, but i dont think they will want to engage you because they need you as their ally to confront the JWS,but not knowing that you are running out of gas here, so i can understand why they bear your insults since without replying,go on soun jare, but back to my question,

is verse 9 above an insult to God? as you suggest in your earlier post,[/b]if you refuse,then your emotional standard for jesus is just based on your personal impulse,and not based on the scripture.we are all emotional for him,but you seem to be hiding something.

[b]also comment on verse 9 above!

plappville:

Then who is the "Angel of the LORD" that called Himself WONDERFUL see: Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You? And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful? Judges 13:17-18

The hebrew word for "wonderful" in Judges 13:18 is the very same Hebrew word for "Wonderful" in isaiah 9:6. see:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

You people have pretendly skiped several verses i presented here, bringing up blind arguements so that we cannot achieve the clear meaning of these verses.
@Oahray started a good work, but you people are so scared to see the end of it hence raised up issues that has nothing to do with the aim of this thread like accusing JW dictrines, SDA doctrine etc. Lets face the OT verses and see who this Angel is. The way you people are difining the Angel of God is not the way we see it in these Scriptures i presented.
Ok, we will hold on to Hebrew one. But can you people be so honest and tell us who this Unique Angel is? I will do repost if you want.

Again my sister you are doing exactly what you accuse the Trinitarians of doing which is to assume that what you believe is in scripture , though it is not explicitly stated.

You cannot assume a doctrine, it is either in the bible as fact or it is not.

Show me in the bible where JESUS Christ or his apostles called him an angel ,or better still , show me in the OT where the prophets prophesied that angel Michael will incarnate as Christ.

Be careful of holding onto the doctrine of institutions . Think for yourself , do not allow others think for you, read your bible and examine the facts.

Angel worship is a serious sin in the eyes of GOD and not to be trifled with.

Jesus Christ has been made better than ALL the angels including Michael.

My belief is that Jesus will appear with his mighty angels and angel Michael will be one of them.

Please do not tie your beliefs to JW, SDA, Deeper life or whatever , tie them to the bible.

[quote author=BARRISTERS]@frosbel,

but to get an answer, now frosbel,answer me this;....was 'jesus ever made lower than the angels at some point in time?'

you are making a case that he has always been greater than the angels but what about heb 2:7,9

Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels in the same way that MAN as a race was made a little lower than the angels.

pls stop directing trinitarian questions to me,im against trinity and will always be,direct them to chukwudi44,true2God and Ubenedictus, but i dont think they will want to engage you because they need you as their ally to confront the JWS,but not knowing that you are running out of gas here, so i can understand why they bear your insults since without replying,go on soun jare, but back to my question,

I don't insult and I could care less if I have supporters or not, in fact I will be worried if I had supporters because I do not want any , if people cannot read the bible for themselves without the lenses of the JW, SDA, Deeperlife, Catholic , etc then all I can say is they are in danger of error.

free123: @Barrister
i can understand ur frustration seeing the fallacy u peddled for long being exposed in the light of the truth. It is a shame that anyone with different view from ur falsehood u lump same together with catholics. I got tired reading the nonsense u spewed above. Do u think lengthy and incoherent falsehood wins a case?
Quoting scriptures for u is a waste of time seeing that u have swallowed every bit of rubbish from watchtower and that will not allow u to see that Jesus Christ is not angel Michael even from d falsehood u peddle.
Last question for falsehood peddlers - where in ur own version of the bible is Jesus Christ called Archangel Michael?

[size=14pt] @plapp
Jesus existed as God and exists as God. Numerous scriptures attest to that [/size]

If Jesus existed as God then the bible or you have some problem here? No man Has See God in anyway, then Who is the captain of God's host that Joshua worshipped?
Don't tell me that Joshua saw Yahweh Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Take a look at the scripture in contradicting what you wrote up there!

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11.


As you can see, It was the Spirit of Christ that has always communicating with the prophets of old. So, if the Spirit of Christ had inspired the prophets of the OT,
then it makes very good sense to say that Joshua talked to Jesus. After all, Jesus is the word of God! Jesus has been the one who has communicated with man. This is why
"No one has seen God at any time". You cannot say that God is two are you? Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Again, Who is this Angel: Behold, I (Yahweh)send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Exodus 23:20-21

Lets see what Now Paul just comes out to tells who this Angel is: Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

Now Let's go to Exodus and find specifically who it is that Paul is referring to, Take good note of the Italic and bold:

And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.
Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all PharaohÕs horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. Exodus 14:19-24. What does this three passages teaches? are they talking of same event or not? and who is this Angel? I have more chapters to present but i would like yoy tp help us with this once first. Thank you.

“What is mankind that you are
mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for
him?
7 You made them a little[a]
lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory
and honor
8 and put everything under
their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8

@barristers

All angels are messengers but not all messengers are angels.

John the Baptist is not an angel. "The least of angels is greater than him" shows that he is not the 1st nor the least of the angels.

@frosbel

Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels in the same way that MAN as a race was made a little lower than the angels.

good boy!

with the bolded above, you admitted that jesus actually (at a point in time) was made a little lower than the angels.

next,

1,was that an insult to GOD?

qualification issue

2,At that point when jesus was made lower than the angels, [/b]considering that his rank as at that point in time, while on earth(in lower rank than angels),[b] can you say that 'jesus is qualified' as in lower rank than the angels (which you admmitted)to reddeem the world?

considering the fact that you have earlier base an argument (in the 1st page) on qualification.

who is more qualified now [b]'qualificationwise' [/b]angels or jesus, simple answer pls just pick one.

dont disappoint me pls, other honesthearted are watching!

frosbel:

Again my sister you are doing exactly what you accuse the Trinitarians of doing which is to assume that what you believe is in scripture , though it is not explicitly stated.

You cannot assume a doctrine, it is either in the bible as fact or it is not.

Show me in the bible where JESUS Christ or his apostles called him an angel ,or better still , show me in the OT where the prophets prophesied that angel Michael will incarnate as Christ.

Be careful of holding onto the doctrine of institutions . Think for yourself , do not allow others think for you, read your bible and examine the facts.

Angel worship is a serious sin in the eyes of GOD and not to be trifled with.

Jesus Christ has been made better than ALL the angels including Michael.

My belief is that Jesus will appear with his mighty angels and angel Michael will be one of them.

Please do not tie your beliefs to JW, SDA, Deeper life or whatever , tie them to the bible.

Ever since this thread started, i have beeen saying that This unique angel the OT referred to, that has been playing same roles as Jesus can be Jesus.
If that Angel is not Yahweh that accepted worship and cannot be seen and is called wonderful then to you, who was this Angel,? The reason why you find it difficult to accept this plain scripture is because you have refused several scriptures that plainly shows Jesus pre-existance. It will be wrong for you to also claim that GOD/YAHWEH is that Angel. Because No man has seen God at any time.
I am not saying Jesus is still referred to as angel. I will pressent some scriptures that shows the change of name, even in revelation, we are told That Jesus will bear a name that no one knows but only Him. If we agree things to be taken step by step we will arrive at the truth, instead using our own brain in doing the interpretations. All i have been doing is present you scriptures, you dodge and write out words from your mind.Are you saying that Paul did not know what He was saying? or are you saying that there are two bearing the name WONDERFUL?

BARRISTERS: @frosbel



good boy!

with the bolded above, you admitted that jesus actually (at a point in time) was made a little lower than the angels.

next,

1,was that an insult to GOD?

qualification issue

2,At that point when jesus was made lower than the angels, [/b]considering that his rank as at that point in time, while on earth(in lower rank than angels),[b] can you say that 'jesus is qualified' as in lower rank than the angels (which you admmitted)to reddeem the world?

considering the fact that you have earlier base an argument (in the 1st page) on qualification.

who is more qualified now [b]'qualificationwise' [/b]angels or jesus, simple answer pls just pick one.

dont disappoint me pls, other honesthearted are watching!

Let me ask you a question before I reply.

At what point was MAN as a race made a little lower than the angels ?

frosbel:

Again my sister you are doing exactly what you accuse the Trinitarians of doing which is to assume that what you believe is in scripture , though it is not explicitly stated.

You cannot assume a doctrine, it is either in the bible as fact or it is not.

Show me in the bible where JESUS Christ or his apostles called him an angel ,or better still , show me in the OT where the prophets prophesied that angel Michael will incarnate as Christ.

Be careful of holding onto the doctrine of institutions . Think for yourself , do not allow others think for you, read your bible and examine the facts.

Angel worship is a serious sin in the eyes of GOD and not to be trifled with.

Jesus Christ has been made better than ALL the angels including Michael.

My belief is that Jesus will appear with his mighty angels and angel Michael will be one of them.

Please do not tie your beliefs to JW, SDA, Deeper life or whatever , tie them to the bible.

What was He before He came to earth is my question, i did not argue He was not made better than angels, I believe In His present statue that He is no longer angel.
We have seen several scriptures where Names are changed by Yahweh for reasons, will you also doubt that? God has been using Christ before He came to earth that is my arguement.
And He (Christ) has severally reffered to as an angel.

plappville:

What was He before He came to earth is my question, i did not argue He was not made better than angels, I believe In His present statue that He is no longer angel.
We have seen several scriptures where Names are changed by Yahweh for reasons, will you also doubt that? God has been using Christ before He came to earth that is my arguement.
And He (Christ) has severally reffered to as an angel.

Jesus Christ did not pre-exist as a spirit , he was BEGOTTEN through MARY as a MAN , as the Son of GOD.

Tell me , why did Jesus Christ have to pre-exist ?

@Boomark

Boomark;@barristers

All angels are messengers

the implication of what you are saying here is 'messengers are messengers' simple!
i have defined in the last post that all these heavenly spirits,ministering spirits, called 'sons of God'

hebrew 1:14-15 classified 'the son'(jesus) with 'Spirit' angels. sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

also chapter 2:3
,3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

they are firstly, 'spirits' before secondly, 'being delegated as messenger/angels' angel means 'messenger'(in its primary deftn) derived from the greek word Angellos.

for example you do exist firstly, as a phisical gender,male (primarily).before secondly, beign delegated to some duties,like manager, Supervisors,etc, Supervisors in coy A with the same role can be 'inspector' in coy B, the point here is the 'role played' they are titles.like angels/messengers, you are not born a manager or Supervisor.

Angel/messengers are assignments delegated to (1)either spirit beigns or (2) human beign

thats why an angel can testify to john(not baptist) that;
''im a fellow servant like you''

but not all messengers are angels.

of course human messengers need not be angel angels to deliver their assigned duty!

"The least of angels is greater than him" shows that he is not the 1st nor the least of the angels.
dont confuse things here,pls

the implication of that statement is as regards (the imferior human state of john,to a superior 'spirit angels's state)

let me borrow from frosbels bble quote;.

hebrews 2:6b 7 NIV
“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7, You made them a little lower than the angels;

john is never been reffered to as an angel.thanks

frosbel:

Jesus Christ did not pre-exist as a spirit , he was BEGOTTEN through MARY as a MAN , as the Son of GOD.

Tell me , why did Jesus Christ have to pre-exist ?

Jesus had to pre-exist because he is the firstborn of all creation by Yahweh........

Frosbel I had quoted scriptures you never ever wanted to consider.....

Its not fair......


The son of man (Jesus) ascended back to where he was......

Scriptures have proven that so many times......

John 3:13 is one of those lucid verses that explicitly tells us Jesus was in heaven before his Father transfered his life to mary's womb......

Malawian: one more thing, lucifer was an arch. he was the bringer of light, probably "energy minister" of cos , Jesus fired him just like obasanjo fired a lot of energy ministers.

which portion of the bible did you get that from?

Tobit?

*sigh*

@frosbel

Let me ask you a question before I reply.

At what point was MAN as a race made a little lower than the angels ?

courtesy demands,without hypocrisy that you are responsible for your own assertions! how do i mean?

scroll back to my 1st question, below;

Barristers to frosbel;...now frosbel,answer me this;....was 'jesus ever made lower than the angels at some point in time?'

im making a case 'only for jesus' according to verse 9! lets read it again;

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

neither my question nor the bble quote was making a case for for MAN as you put it, it was your insinuation, not mine,as you can see bolded

,

Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels in the same way that[b] MAN as a race was made a little lower than the angels[/b].

so pls answer

1,was that an insult to GOD?

qualification issue

2,At that point when jesus was made lower than the angels, [/b]considering that his rank as at that point in time, while on earth(in lower rank than angels),[b] can you say that 'jesus is qualified' as in lower rank than the angels (which you admmitted)to reddeem the world?

considering the fact that you have earlier base an argument (in the 1st page) on qualification.

who is more qualified now [b]'qualificationwise' [/b]angels or jesus, simple answer pls just pick one.

dont disappoint me pls, other honesthearted are watching!

pastormustwacc: ^^^it was angel michael that fired him out of heaven. Now i wonder the timeline Jesus was talking about when he said he saw satan fall like lightening. . .

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Was he talking of present, past or future (in revelations).

it was a reference to what he will soon do on going back to heaven.

When he went back to heaven he sat at God's right hand for his enemies to be put under his fit.

That ^^^ he finally carried out at Revelation 12:7

while on earth the angels were already trembling on seeing him that the ask "are you chasing out at this time?

Such was the case when he permitted the Demons to poses the pigs that were around.

But on going back to heaven he did what was recorded at Revelation 12:7

"michael and his angels forth the dragon the original serpent"

"so down the great dragon the original serpent, the one called satan and devil"

so, in matthew he was foretelling what will soon happen when he goes back to heaven and God gives him the authority to fight satan and chased him out.

After chasing satan out off heaven satan will then be chased out off planet earth into the abyse. Rev. 20:1-3

it is the same jesus that will execute Yahweh's judgement to evil doers at the end of this system of things. Rev. 19:11-18

And that is also Jesus assignment as Yahweh chief executioner.

[/quote]Then who is the "Angel of the LORD" that called Himself WONDERFUL see: Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You? And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful? Judges 13:17-18

The hebrew word for "wonderful" in Judges 13:18 is the very same Hebrew word for "Wonderful" in isaiah 9:6. see:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 [quote]

Please stop been mischievous that verse actually says wonderful counsellor and not wonderful,counsellor.There is no comma after the wonderful.

Even at that there is nothing to suggest the angel that spoke with samson's parents was micheal.His identity was never disclosed so stop speculating.

Malawian: yeah, under the orders of Jesus. energy minister wanted to be president and got fired. micheal merely enforced his sack order.

what is and who is this?

What are you saying?

Which bible are you using?

Malawian: Introduction to the Angels



Since ancient times the Angels have been venerated with great respect. With the rise of New Age and Occultism comes an urgent need to understand these celestial benefactors in the light of our Catholic faith and tradition.

Angels are pure spirits, sinless servants of God. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" Heb. 1:13-14. The Angels are comprised of 9 choirs; Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. Particularly powerful are the 7 great Archangels spoken of in Apoc VIII:2 "And I saw 7 Angels standing in the presence of God".

When Luciel (Bearer of Light) rebelled against God and became Lucifer (Prince of Darkness) one entire choir of angels followed him and was lost. Many angels from other choirs also followed him in his rebellion. "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels: And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apoc 12:7-9

7 angels from the second lowest choir were so outraged by the terrible offense to the dignity of the Most High they positioned themselves between the Throne of God and the infernal offenders, prepared to defend the honor and dignity of God, in spite of their inferiority to Lucifer and his legions. God was so moved by their heroic love he elevated them, enriching them with many new gifts and graces. So lofty was their new office that they were given the privilege of standing eternally before the Throne of God to carry out the Divine Will. "And from the throne proceeded lightnings and voices and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Apoc 4:5. "Bless the Lord all ye His angels: you that are mighty in strength and execute His word, hearkening to the voice of His orders." Ps 102:20

The names of the 3 most commonly invoked Archangels, St. Michael, St. Raphael and St. Gabriel are found in Sacred Scripture. Unlike sects tied to a Bible-only understanding of God and creation we have sacred tradition, the writings of the saints and private revelation to expand our understanding and enlighten us.

In 1050 St. Celias made an exhaustive study of the approved writings of the Early Church Fathers up to the 4th century. In this way we have come to know the names of all 7 of these mighty Archangels, the meaning of their names and the sacrament each is patron of.

Since the 4th century these 7 Archangels have been honored in the Roman Martyrology. In Mettenheim Bavaria is the Catholic Church dedicated to the Seven Great Archangels. It is now over 250 years old. On the 18th of October 1720, this church was dedicated. Each of the 7 Archangels was mentioned by name in the consecration prayer by Rev. Franz Wagensberg, Bishop of Salzberg. Inside the church are 7 altars, each dedicated to one of the Archangels with a statue of the Archangel it was dedicated to. The dedication by a legitimate Catholic Bishop is additional proof of the correctness of the names and an encouragement to active devotion to these angels!

Pope Pius V said in his Bull to the Spanish Clergy, permitting and encouraging the worship of the seven archangels: "One cannot exalt too much these seven rectors of the world, figured by the seven planets, as it is consoling to our century to witness by the grace of God the cult of these seven ardent lights, and of these seven stars reassuming all its luster in the Christian republic." (Les Sept Esprits et l'Histoire de leur Culte; De Mirville's 2nd memoir addressed to the academy. Vol. II. p. 358.)

Michelangelo was ordered to adorn the church dedicated to Mary and the Seven Archangels, with a fresco of 7 Archangels on the altar, in Rome in the 16th century. In addition, the liturgy to Seven Archangels has been confirmed and was still in use around 1800 and has not been abolished, only it is not being practiced.

Below is the fresco of Mary amidst the Seven Archangels, in St Maria Degli Angeli in Rome from the web page: http://www.santamariadegliangeliroma.it.
Originally, during the reign of Pope Gregor XIII it was intended to build seven separate chapels there, dedicated to each of the Seven Archangels.

it is obvious that the bible is not your authority.

For we here the bible is the final authority.

truthislight:

another one!

Trinity and tradition.

Tobit is a book that contradict the OT and NT on various diver issues and is not part of the Jews OT and the NT are epistle of christ apostles.

So, on this issue Tobit is a no contest of an authority.
Peace

Mr man tobit is part of the sacred scriptures.It is not an extra-biblical book as it was canonised alongside other scriptures @ the synod of hippo.

And no where does the book of tobit contradict any other teachings of the other scriptures.

The book of tobit has always been in the bible right from the creation of the bible in the fourth century and is as valid as anyother scripture as a source of scriptural authourity.I may not want to discuss this further except in another tread to avoid derailing the topic

truthislight:

it is obvious that the bible is not your authority.

For we here the bible is the final authority.

Even the biblical authours did not practice bible alone doctrine as they quoted books outside the bible like the books of Enoch,Jasher,Nathan e.t.c

Even st paul asked the collossians to read his epistle to the ladocieans which is not in the bible.

BARRISTERS: @Malawian

you see the bolded above at the beggining of your post? that is the flaw that knocked all your post down! like statistics,a wrong piece of data will definately affect the result,no matter how rigourous you have work,until it is corrected, see the flaw again ''although this term is not used in canonical texts'' we deal exclusively with the sacred scriptures, and not pagan scriptures, and that is the tonic that has sustained the tread till this page(15).

only if you can work within the constitution of 'only the sacred scriptures', then we can discuss and make the tread more imformative! thanks for your time.

exactly!

That is what i have been trying to tell him.