If you are a bible believer, read this carefully and let us know your conclusions. Just thought this was an interesting article, that is all.

12:7a
War in heaven?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7,

We tend to think of heaven as a place where nothing ever goes wrong and we ask, how can a good God allow such things? People are quick to conclude that either God wasn't really good or that He can't help what happens when evil comes. The fact is that, throughout the Scriptures, we see Him as one who stands at the door and knocks (Rev. 3:20). He never pushes His way in. We let Him in only if we want to. We can choose to disobey. This means that when we choose to be loyal, it is really our free choice. God has arranged for us to have something to give. He made us and everything around us and he gives us every breath and heartbeat. In spite of total ownership, He decided to let us choose to love Him or choose not to. Our choice to give Him our loyalty is a real gift and one He treasures immensely.

God is not the author of evil de3204, ps09215. The universe and world he created came perfect from His hand, ge0131.
That choice was also given to the angels He created. We do not know how many centuries or millennia passed before rebellion broke out in heaven. They loved their leader and enjoyed their relationship of total cooperation. But one day a cloud began to roll in and heaven was not the same.



12:7b
Who is Michael?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7,

Michael is not mentioned often the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous, 1306a2] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license jude04 and who criticize authority jude08. He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels re1207. (Also 1pe0321f)
Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)
So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. Only one person has been given that authority. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Matt. 5:25-29)

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
"I [Jesus] am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the grave] and of death." (Rev. 1:18)

In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! Compare Song 5:10 which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.

In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.

But angels are created. How is Christ an angel?
Without considering the explanation above, this is a logical argument. Christ was with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1). He is the Creator, with the Father, not the created. Beyond these concepts, which God has revealed, we have not been told and could not understand correctly. Speculation is not only fruitless because we must guess but it is not for us to indulge in. "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29). We do know the simple concepts we have just discussed and can accept them.

Christ is a human because He took on humanity to save us. This does not prevent Him from also being divine. We do not know very much about His relation to the angels, but He was one with them and he was their commander. We cannot rule out the possibility that He also took their nature as He has ours. Lucifer wanted Christ's job as he tried to work his way up to higher positions in the government of the universe (Isa. 14:13).

The word for angel in Greek and Hebrew also means messenger. So Christ, the messenger of the covenant in Mal. 3, is also the angel of the covenant. We see Him as an angel in Rev. 10:1, too, but that's beyond the scope of our study.

12:7c
Sidelight on death and the resurrection

First here is the verse we are discussing:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9)

Why would Michael dispute with the devil over the body of Moses? Satan doesn't want anyone resurrected. How he must have trembled when our Lord arose from the tomb! The Jewish leaders who sent Jesus to the cross were clearly inspired by Satan. Their idea of sealing the tomb (Matt. 27:64) was likewise inspired by him. He claimed victory and wanted it secure. Their excuse that the disciples, who were hiding from them, might steal the body is hardly convincing. (John 20:19).

Many who read these lines assume that the inner person escapes the body at death and goes, in spirit form, to heaven or hell. Although we find no support for this idea in Scripture 1411g, I respect those who have not understood. Seeing the faithful ones sleeping in their graves and not going to heaven before we all do helps us realize that Christ was asserting authority over His sleeping saints which Satan naturally opposes he1139. This authority would be confirmed by Christ at Calvary and by breaking the seals as the worthy Lamb 0501.

Connection with the story of Moses
Jude tells us that Michael the archangel, whom we recognized above as Christ 1207b, contended with the devil over the body of Moses. We also know that Christ was the Lord of the Exodus. He identified Himself to the Jews as the I AM that was before Abraham (John 8:58). We can see that they understood this as His claim to divinity because they were ready to stone Him. This claim would have, in their minds, justified stoning because they did not accept His divine mission. (See Matt. 26:63-65)

At the burning bush, He had told Moses, "I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Ex. 3:14). This same I AM later gave them the commandments. "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Ex. 20:1, 2).

At the end of his term of service 1402a, Moses went to "the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah" across the Jordan Valley from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the promised land. "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." (Deut. 34:1-6)

Connecting this with what we learned from Jude, we see that the same Lord who buried him raised him to life again and took him to heaven. Thus we find Moses with Elijah in the transfiguration (Mark 9:1-7). Satan would keep his victims eternally in the grave if he could. Praise God for the One who is our life-giver, too. Moses' resurrection was based on the coming victory on the cross (Rev. 1:18).

A challenge to the popular theory
If Moses' spirit had gone to heaven at death and would get reconnected with his body at the resurrection, Michael would have had no special interest in his body at an earlier time. Or even if He were doing something to make sure the later connection would take place, why was Moses the one involved? The matter should have been settled with Abel or Adam.

Still supposing that a conscious part of good people goes to heaven at death, we must ask why Michael would not have been interested in Moses' "spirit." If the devil were going to block the process after death, he would have opposed the spirit's going to heaven, not what happened to the body. The simple fact is that the the popular idea is contrary to what God has told us in His Word 1411g. Death is an unconscious "sleep."

For more on the topic of death click the image (© Corel):

Because Christ was raised, we may have that hope, too. At His return, those who have committed their lives to Him and have passed to their rest in the grave "shall all be made alive."



12:8
Eviction

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7,

Now that we understand Michael a little better, we notice that the dragon "prevailed not." He and his followers didn't succeed in overthrowing the kingdom of heaven (Praise God). Notice that "their place" was no longer in heaven. It became this earth Rev. 2:4a. But their place is here only temporarily. The time is short as we will see. Jesus described their final new home. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt. 25:41)

But on a cheerful note, where is our place? See Eph. 1:3-5. Of course it's our place if we choose it and accept God's work of preparing us for it. Rev. 13:8c

Source: http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg11-12/r1207a-Michael.htm

Jesus is not an angel , he is the Son of the living GOD.

"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?" - Hebrews 1:5

God's angels have a hierarchy of leadership and Michael is at the very top. Appears he was on the same par with Lucifer before the later fell from grace to dust.

"But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" - Jude 1:9

Jesus is next to GOD in leadership and dominion, above every and all power and dominion in heaven and earth, even angel Michael bows before Jesus at the command of Yahweh.

In fact , the passage below depicts that angel Michael will blow the final trumpet , heralding the glorious coming of Christ.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

^^^Excellent, i dont want it to look like i was the one misinterpreting. Because the article-writer was claiming that since the arc angel carried that trumpet, and the trumpet wakes people up, then the arcangel must be Jesus.

And the article writer somehow managed to skip too conveniently:
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?" - Hebrews 1:5

Frosbel u r a good man

@frosbel. I was going to quote from Hebrew.
As I read the article, I got annoyed. How can some people just elevate one scripture out of context?
There's a big difference from Angel and Jesus. But he quoted a portion that said Jesus was sent by God therefore he's an angel.
Believers are also sent by God, but does it make us angels?

Interesting. . .

Please can Y'all reconcile daniel 12:1-3 with matthew 24:21 and also john 5:28??....

Let me quote these scriptures....


Speaking about the end this is what daniel says:::::::::

New International Version (NIV)

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who
protects your people, will arise. There will be
a time of distress such as has not happened
from the beginning of nations until then. But at
that time your people—everyone whose name
is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the
earth will awake: some to everlasting life,
others to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the
brightness of the heavens, and those who lead
many to righteousness, like the stars for ever
and ever.
_________________________

Micheals rising up in the end is associated with a ""time of distress or tribulation such as has not happened from the beginning of the nations until them".....

Comparing that with Jesus' words at matthew 24:21 points to that parallel.....

Mathhew 24:21..
New International Version (©1984)
For then there will be great distress,
unequaled from the beginning of the world
until now--and never to be equaled again.



Micheal always acts on behalf of Gods people....always!!!!....both in the past and also in the end as daniel wrote.......and his actions are exactly the same actions Jesus is suppose to carry out......

________________
Daniel 12:2 hints us with another scene that occurs when micheal arises in behalf of Gods people...
The ressurection of the dead...

John 5:28,29 supports that...
______________

And again micheal is carrying out an assignment that was infact Jesus'.....driving away satan from the heavens.......we all know that no other person was bestowed with the power and authority by God to flush satan outta the heavens,if not Jesus......
Revelation tells us that Mike and his angels battled with satan and his angels.....

I don't think Yahweh ever gave any other spirit son of his,the responsibility of dealing with satan.....
___________________

No one is trying to equate Jesus with the rest of the angels..ofcus he's higher than them and they are subordinates to Him....

But the evidences from the scriptures shows how Jesus fits the arch angel michael ...........

The book of daniel really shows everything.....

You guys can peruse through daniel......

Except there is some other spirit son of God who has got the same power with Jesus.....

ijawkid: Please can Y'all reconcile daniel 12:1-3 with matthew 24:21 and also john 5:28??....

Let me quote these scriptures....


Speaking about the end this is what daniel says:::::::::

New International Version (NIV)

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who
protects your people, will arise. There will be
a time of distress such as has not happened
from the beginning of nations until then. But at
that time your people—everyone whose name
is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the
earth will awake: some to everlasting life,
others to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the
brightness of the heavens, and those who lead
many to righteousness, like the stars for ever
and ever.
_________________________

Micheals rising up in the end is associated with a ""time of distress or tribulation such as has not happened from the beginning of the nations until them".....

Comparing that with Jesus' words at matthew 24:21 points to that parallel.....

Mathhew 24:21..
New International Version (©1984)
For then there will be great distress,
unequaled from the beginning of the world
until now--and never to be equaled again.



Micheal always acts on behalf of Gods people....always!!!!....both in the past and also in the end as daniel wrote.......and his actions are exactly the same actions Jesus is suppose to carry out......

________________
Daniel 12:2 hints us with another scene that occurs when micheal arises in behalf of Gods people...
The ressurection of the dead...

John 5:28,29 supports that...
______________

And again micheal is carrying out an assignment that was infact Jesus'.....driving away satan from the heavens.......we all know that no other person was bestowed with the power and authority by God to flush satan outta the heavens,if not Jesus......
Revelation tells us that Mike and his angels battled with satan and his angels.....

I don't think Yahweh ever gave any other spirit son of his,the responsibility of dealing with satan.....
___________________

No one is trying to equate Jesus with the rest of the angels..ofcus he's higher than them and they are subordinates to Him....

But the evidences from the scriptures shows how Jesus fits the arch angel michael ...........

The book of daniel really shows everything.....

You guys can peruse through daniel......

Except there is some other spirit son of God who has got the same power with Jesus.....

My Bro, Jesus is not an angel , never was and never will be.

This is where you and the Trinitarians err about the pre-existense of Jesus.

Christ Jesus was born through a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit as a MAN. He was a 100% fully fledged MAN.

Jesus was neither the second person of the trinity nor an angel.

Only a MAN ordained by GOD could redeem MAN from the curse of SIN, only the last Adam could undo what the first Adam had done.

From Genesis 3:15 , the first prophecy about the coming of the saviour, he was ALWAYS going to be from the seed of a WOMAN and not from the seed of Angels.

"The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:45

Also in Daniel, there is a big distinction between Jesus and Michael.

Here is how Jesus is described in Daniel 7 :

"13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14



and about Micheal

"12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: " - Daniel 12:1

Micheal apears to be a warrior angel and is probably the head of all angels.


Consider this scripture :

"20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out." - Exodus 23:20-23

This angel is most likely Michael, as we can see he is one of God's most powerful angels.

However it is never said of Michael, that he will come as a MAN and die for our sins, this is just plain false.


The simplicity of the gospel is that JESUS Christ came as MAN , sent by GOD for our redemption. He is now exalted far above all power and authority in heaven and earth which includes both angels and humans.

frosbel:


My Bro, Jesus is not an angel , never was and never will be.

This is where you and the Trinitarians err about the pre-existense of Jesus.

Christ Jesus was born through a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit as a MAN. He was a 100% fully fledged MAN.

Jesus was neither the second person of the trinity nor an angel.

Only a MAN ordained by GOD could redeem MAN from the curse of SIN, only the last Adam could undo what the first Adam had done.

From Genesis 3:15 , the first prophecy about the coming of the saviour, he was ALWAYS going to be from the seed of a WOMAN and not from the seed of Angels.

"The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:45

Also in Daniel, there is a big distinction between Jesus and Michael.

Here is how Jesus is described in Daniel 7 :

"13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14



and about Micheal

"12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: " - Daniel 12:1

Micheal apears to be a warrior angel and is probably the head of all angels.


Consider this scripture :

"20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out." - Exodus 23:20-23

This angel is most likely Michael, as we can see he is one of God's most powerful angels.

However it is never said of Michael, that he will come as a MAN and die for our sins, this is just plain false.


The simplicity of the gospel is that JESUS Christ came as MAN , sent by GOD for our redemption. He is now exalted far above all power and authority in heaven and earth which includes both angels and humans.

But I believe Jesus Christ pre-existed as a spirit creature in heaven before he descended and was born as a man......

That daniel 12:1-2 I quoted shows exactly what happens when michael stands up in the end....its exactly what happens when Jesus is exalted and enthroned as king.....GREAT tribulations and also later the ressurection of the dead.......

I know you've had a lil problem with Jesus' pre-existence......

That can be discussed....

@All,

Please keep this topic going. I am paying rapt attention to all the discussion so far.

This is quite contentious from both angles we want to look at it. I rest my case for now.

I hope Buzugee the 'revelator' has something worthwhile to contribute to this topic

I await the revelator to shed more light on this, because these guys have succeeded into confusing my brain now.

pastormustwacc: I await the revelator to shed more light on this, because these guys have succeeded into confusing my brain now.

Have you read that daniel 12:1-3.....

It cracks me up to see the parallels between Jesus and the angel MIKE......

ijawkid:

Have you read that daniel 12:1-3.....

It cracks me up to see the parallels between Jesus and the angel MIKE......

Maybe daniel was confused, he was seeing Jesus, but because there was no Jesus in those days, He had to link the image of the one he was seeing to - a known figure, arc angel michael.
I was just kidding, i am still confused, i think i will have to ehm invoke the arc angel mesef and ask him. Now, where that my angelic invokation guide.
Phew, i think not - i might mistakenly invoke a fallen angel. . .

.

frosbel:
and about Micheal

"12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: " - Daniel 12:1

Micheal apears to be a warrior angel and is probably the head of all angels.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (Revelation 19:11-13).

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16).

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

Now note the other names of this angel of war:

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16).


and his name is called "The Word of God." (Revelation 19:11-13).

This should make it simple for you to know who the angel of war is and that has been standing up for God's people.
Peace

@frosbel
honestly comment on the (bolded) they are very strong claims;

"And I saw [size=16pt]an angel[/size] standing in the sun...........................And he

hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16).


and [size=14pt]his name is called "The Word of God." [/size](Revelation 19:11-13).

im waiting pls!

BARRISTERS: @frosbel
honestly comment on the (bolded) they are very strong claims;



im waiting pls!

Sorry , but this does not prove anything.

There is a clear difference between the angel and Jesus.

Jesus is not an angel , btw.

frosbel:


Sorry , but this does not prove anything.

There is a clear difference between the angel and Jesus.

Jesus is not an angel , btw.

fortunately we all have eyes and can read.

Mehn, this is getting interesting, but that angel standing in the sun is most likely Uriel - also known as Angel of the Sun.

frosbel:


Sorry , but this does not prove anything.

There is a clear difference between the angel and Jesus.

Jesus is not an angel , btw.

maybe we have a divid and rule arrangement in heaven, where Jesus have his own angels and arch-angel michael have his own angels and satan also have his own angels while in heaven.

If Yahweh's angels are united serving Yahweh then we know that there is NO divide and rule and they will all have a common leader.

Unless the bible is contradictory and says that Jesus will do things that had already been assign to arch-angel michael then we dont really know who to look to to stand up for God's people at the end of days.

Again, We dont really know if it is arch-angel michael or the lord Jesus that will call for the resurrection of faithful servant of Yahweh, since that task has already been given to arch-angel michael long long time ago and we know that Yahweh cannot lie.

This and others beg for answers since Yahweh Always inform his servant of his intention.

There are too many duplication of responsibility and we are to believe that Yahweh is confuse because of someone personal sentiment? No, that is impossible.

It is those that dont yield to scriptural evidence that has to explain how come they know more than Yahweh, the owner of the bible that repeated the resposibilty of Archangel michael to Jesus after Jesus has been reveal as the masaiah.

pastormustwacc: ^^^Excellent, i dont want it to look like i was the one misinterpreting. Because the article-writer was claiming that since the arc angel carried that trumpet, and the trumpet wakes people up, then the arcangel must be Jesus.

And the article writer somehow managed to skip too conveniently:
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?" - Hebrews 1:5

I was thinking that you have started miss yarning, that i had to check the OP again. Especially concerning Jude 9.

^^Now, that is really interesting. I am trying my best to be as objective as possible on this thread. I am not taking any side (yet).

Ndipe: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Michael-Archangel.html

you should have come forward to explain the begging question.

Being the leader of the angel is a crime to you if Jesus is such.

Why not come forward and answer some questions?

Jesus is not an angel .

Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

Michael is the chief of God's angels, to suggest that Jesus is angel Micheal is pure speculation and wrongly so.

No angel would have EVER qualified to die for the sins of Mankind, only a man will suffice and that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

In summary :

1) JESUS came as a MAN
2) He was not yet born at the time of the OT

@frosbel,

do you want to be taking seriously at all?

FROSBEL;...Sorry , but this does not prove anything.

Are you using your own standard by dismissing strong proofs with links to the subject? because you are yet to counter the strong proofs contained here? its like in the court of law, a judge is bound by the 'pleadings;...(statements supplied by both parties involved in a case before the trial starts.)' so anything out these are not entertained again no matter how relevant. a judge cannot use his own opinion or sentiment to judge outside the facts pleaded before him.even if his relative is involved in the case,he is bound by what is pleaded in written form before him. so when you say ''this does not prove anything'' in the face of these strong titles used for 'a leading Angel below' your refusal to provide 'where the same titles ("KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." and WORD OF GOD)are also used for another person apart from jesus makes your objection so childish and forcefull without substance,and as it stands now,the existing evidences here (a,b and c)below are strong evidences,and until these are duly countered, they remain strong evidence to conclude that JESUS EXIST AS A ANGEL IN HEAVEN. why?

because based on the evidence supplied,it is a statement of fact duly established in the bible, that the person reffered to in revelation 19 is (a)'' an angel''and a leader of heavenly armies (b)he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16). (c)and his name is called "The Word of God." and that you are yet to give counter proofs from the bible. maybe the evidence is enough to convince you is not an issue here, but 'YOU' should provide a counter proof from biblical record. maybe some people share your sentiment, like the OP on these, but are not bold enogh to counter it by supplying another person apart from jesus who is credited with (b and c) above are NOT helping but sharing ignorance based on pady-pady relationship and not based on real proof.

frosbel: Jesus is not an angel .

Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

Michael is the chief of God's angels, to suggest that Jesus is angel Micheal is pure speculation and wrongly so.

No angel would have EVER qualified to die for the sins of Mankind, only a man will suffice and that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

In summary :

1) JESUS came as a MAN
2) He was not yet born at the time of the OT

^^^

this are your words, why not start by answering this questions below.

truthislight:

maybe we have a divid and rule arrangement in heaven, where Jesus have his own angels and arch-angel michael have his own angels and satan also have his own angels while in heaven.

If Yahweh's angels are united serving Yahweh then we know that there is NO divide and rule and they will all have a common leader.

Unless the bible is contradictory and says that Jesus will do things that had already been assign to arch-angel michael then we dont really know who to look to to stand up for God's people at the end of days.

Again, We dont really know if it is arch-angel michael or the lord Jesus that will call for the resurrection of faithful servant of Yahweh, since that task has already been given to arch-angel michael long long time ago and we know that Yahweh cannot lie.

This and others beg for answers since Yahweh Always inform his servant of his intention.

There are too many duplication of responsibility and we are to believe that Yahweh is confuse because of someone personal sentiment? No, that is impossible.

It is those that dont yield to scriptural evidence that has to explain how come they know more than Yahweh, the owner of the bible that repeated the resposibilty of Archangel michael to Jesus after Jesus has been reveal as the masaiah.

This is getting serious!

that the person reffered to in revelation 19 is (a)'' an angel''and a leader of heavenly armies (b)he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16). (c)and his name is called "The Word of God.

Barristers where did you get "a leading angel"? I can't see it where you quoted.

@frosbel

you mean your post can be without a quote of bible? well lets see;

Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

No argument about that, God credited jesus as 'my son'.Gods first creation. (prov.8:22-24)

Michael is the chief of God's angels,

yes

to suggest that Jesus is angel Micheal is pure speculation and wrongly so.

to suggest that it is a pure speculation that Jesus is not angel Micheal in the face of established strong proofs in the bible that the person reffered to in revelation 19 is (a)'' an angel''and a leader of heavenly armies (b)he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16). (c)and his name is called "The Word of God." and that you are yet to give counter proofs from the bible

this makes you look like someone seeking to get glued blindly to what you want to hear but tries to discredit a sound proof from the bible which you knew that you are supposed to give a counter proofs.

suggesting that it is a pure speculation that Jesus is angel Micheal in the face of established strong proofs in (a,b and c)above shows gross disrespect towards using bible as our guide.

because it is evident in your counteinance that you are defeated.your last post here contain 'no bible quote' and that shows that you are relying on verbal comments on this issue rather than proving by using the bible.

No angel would have EVER qualified to die for the sins of Mankind,

pls back up this statement,unless you are adding to the scripture, i challenge you to do it now pls! waiting.

only a man will suffice and that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

you can see the flaw in using your analogy,''only a man will suffice'' now lets me ask you, was jesus a 'man' in the heaven? that his beign a man will suffice? again you failed to back this insinuation with the bible. but

that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

you admitted here that the title has one personality, and that is jesus christ,and that agrees with the ' angel' in the heaven with the inscription in revelation 19, can you see the bible back up?

In summary :

1) JESUS came as a MAN

is jesus a human beign in the heaven, pls answer, or if we have to go into spiritual body discussion,i will be ready for you.

2) He was not yet born at the time of the OT

revelation is not OT,ok?

Barristers where did you get "a leading angel"? I can't see it where you quoted.

14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Hebrews 1:7-8

7 Of the angels he says, "Who
makes his angels winds, and his
servants flames of fire." 8 But of
the Son he says, "Thy throne, O
God, is for ever and ever, the
righteous scepter is the scepter of
thy kingdom.

v7 refers to angels while v8 refers to the Son.

Also refer to v5 where it says "to which of the angels did he say: "You are my Son..?"" to this question someone can say "to angel Michael." Is it so?

What am seeing here is that since Jesus is greater than the angels, He can do everything Michael can do but Michael cannot do everything Jesus can do.