BetaThings: Reconcile these two

You Shias say
1. The martyrs, their Imams and Prophet (PBUH) are not dead. So they can hear prayers and make intercession from their graves (that quote from the Qur'an)
2. The Prophet (PBUH) would refer to some people as his (PBUH) companions on the day of Qiyama and he (PBUH) would be told you (PBUH) did not know what those so-called companions did after you (PBUH) left. (that is the import of the LgosShia's quote from Bukhari).

Shias use this hadith to justify their assertion that Abu-bakr, Umar etc (RA) would be in hell fire. (Sunnis believe these faithful companions SPECIFICALLY promised Al-Jannah are not those referred to in that hadith. Afteral that hadith does not have names of the excluded companions)

My question
Was the Prophet (PBUH) ALIVE in his grave making intercession (Shia's interpretation of that Quranic verse) or was he DEAD in his (PBUH) grave and did not know that his (PBUH) companions had done unfaithful things?

your above points on which you need clarification would be answered in matter of seconds when you clarify the below.

I am saying this because Sunnis believe that
The Prophet (PBUH) is dead and can not make intercession now. People will get that benefit on the day of Qiyama
Praying to people in a grave is Shirk

Sunnis believe the Prophet (s) can intercede for a believer who committed a sin and repented when he was alive and also on Qiyama.in other words if the Prophet (s) was around and you have a sin you want Allah to forgive,you can approach the Prophet (s) and ask him to intercede with Allah.simply put Sunnis believe in the Tawassul of the Prophet (s) only when he is alive and talking.i am generalizing and saying all "Sunnis" for argument sake because even to this day there are Sunnis who still believe the Prophet (s) can intercede for them even in his grave.

"And pray for them, surely your prayer is a relief to them". (Sura Tauba Ayat 103.)

"And had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft - returning (to mercy), Merciful". (Surah Nisa: Ayat 64.)

the Shia believe simply that both alive and physically (not spiritually) dead,the Prophet (s) can do Tawassul or intercede on their behalf and be a means/approach (waseelah) with Allah at all times.

now let me assume that as your claim,the Prophet (s) is dead in all ways at present and his Tawassul or Sha'fa can avail no one.so the Shia doing what people used to do when the Prophet (s) was around is of no effect or use today.let me for argument sake (i repeat) assume those points.please answer these questions:

1. how does the Shia doing Tawassul with the Prophet (s) at present amount to "shirk"? why not accuse us of "stupidity" or "madness"? why must it be "shirk"?

2. on what basis is doing Tawassul with the dead "shirk" and doing Tawassul with the living Islamic and acceptable?

3. how did you conclude that we are "praying" to the dead? whether dead or alive,when you do Tawassul to the Prophet (s) you are not "praying" to or worshiping him.correct me if i am wrong.

why asking these questions:

you can accuse me of being crazy,hallucinating or stupid,and even wasting my time for asking a "dead man" to do tawassul for me.but for you to accuse me of "shirk" just because the person according to you is dead,does not make sense.even if your understanding of Tawassul is correct and indeed the Prophet (s) is dead in all ways and can be of no use to seek an approach with Allah,if i as a Shia i am wasting my time to still do Tawassul with him,then how do you conclude i am committing "shirk" instead of "stupidity" or "madness" for instance?

i insisted to clarifying this point to demonstrate how this issue of Tawassul which as evident from Quranic verses is an Islamic practice and you agree with it (if the Prophet is alive only) is being abused and exploited by the enemies of Shia Muslims to tarnish our reputation.the issue of "shirk" therefore is nothing but a scarecrow used against the Shia to deceive and scare the unsuspecting.

i want us to draw the line between what is "shirk" and what is not.i want to put it to your face that we are far from committing "shirk" even if you accuse us of "madness" for "talking with the dead" or seeking the "dead" as an approach (waseelah) to God Almighty.i will try to see that you realize you have being programmed and made to sin by accusing other Muslims (i.e. the Shia) of the heinous crime of "shirk".when we reach a conclusion on this point,then we can discuss Tawassul and whether or not the Prophet (s) dead or alive is of any use in doing Tawassul with Allah.and i will prove to you Islamically that the dead,in particular the RIGHTEOUS,do have a spiritual consciousness or perception of things in the world.and i will treat the above points you brought into the discussion,that i postponed until we reach a conclusion on this "shirk" issue.

please i look forward to a constructive dialogue and straightforward answers.

Zhul-Fiqar.:

i was not making a sermon.i was responding to the points you made.

The poinst here are shorter and esier to deal with. Thanks

Zhul-Fiqar.:

the (mis)interpretation is sic.

Don't understand what you mean
But if you disagree, it is your duty to make a rebuttal

Zhul-Fiqar.:

how does sending them away amount to "helping them unto righteousness"? there is higher chance that showing them kindness and talking to them would have made them see the importance of salat better than a display of judgement on God's behalf.
does driving them out of the house amount to "enjoining good and forbidding evil"? you are misapplying those verses.the points that can be derived from this dream are two:

1.) you do not judge based on what belongs to God.prayers belong to God.if they were thieves or liars or have harmed you,then you can react.but prayer is the right of God and not man.

2.) even sinners who have left salat can be interceded for by Imam Hussein (as) and insha'Allah by Allah's mercy,they will change for the better and gain knowledge and better understanding of the importance of salat.afterall,Imam Hussein (as) was being rained with arrows by his enemies in the tragedy of Karbala and his followers still formed a human shield around him to enable the Imam (as) perform salat al-Dhuhr.when you gain better understanding about what Imam Hussein (as) stood for and you are ever closer to his legacy,you will see changes in your religious standing and an increase in iman by Allah's grace.
Noble Quran Verse 41:34
"Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that is better: Then will he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate!"

You are misinterpreting issues. Do you pray Janaza on people who abandon salat?
What is forgiveness? You don't forgive what is not your right? I cannot forgive people who abandon their duties to Allah
These are supposed to be conscious muslims who abandon their homes, comfort and family to make what they consider a religious journey. Yet they will not pray. Misplaced priority in my opinion. The Prophet (PBUH) in his lifetime used to use the call to Adhan to identify muslim communities, not words of mouth

Zhul-Fiqar.:

a thief is only a thief when he tampers with what does not belong to him.

You are stretching things. They could be anything (thieves, molesters, fugitive from justice) but their conduct belies their claim that they are making a "religious journey". I cannot understand someone going for hajj and not making salat

Zhul-Fiqar.:

he only asked for kindness to be shown based on the dream.ill-intentions and hatred to fight the Shia are what led you to that (above) conclusion.

You judge intentions too much. I am not a fan of Shias but how many time have I
1. opened threads to lambast Shia. You guys even do that to Sunnis during Ramadan
2. defended Sunni practices (from attacks by non-muslims) by comparing Sunnis to Shias

But above all, I will not dispute with you what a sahaba and grandson (RA) of the Prophet (PBUH) did. I just don't believe that he (RA) will do what was asserted. Compare what you said the host should have done (leniency) to what Shias claimed Hussain (RA) did.

BetaThings:
Don't understand what you mean
But if you disagree, it is your duty to make a rebuttal

i have done so and i will keep doing so.

You are misinterpreting issues. Do you pray Janaza on people who abandon salat?
What is forgiveness? You don't forgive what is not your right? I cannot forgive people who abandon their duties to Allah
These are supposed to be conscious muslims who abandon their homes, comfort and family to make what they consider a religious journey. Yet they will not pray. Misplaced priority in my opinion. The Prophet (PBUH) in his lifetime used to use the call to Adhan to identify muslim communities, not words of mouth

it is not your duty to forgive them.they did nothing wrong to you.

you dont perform Janaza prayer on the person who left salat,because you dont give him what he abandoned and did not believe in.the prayer goes to Allah,and therefore you cannot pray on someone who abandoned Allah.but that does not give you the right to fight the person and display harshness for his shortcoming when he is alive.you should by all means show kindness to the person so the may change when he is alive.

let me bring the example of Hur.Hur was one of the generals in the army of Umar Ibn Saad,Yazid's commander.Hur was the one who laid siege to Imam Hussein (as) in Karbala.in the last moment Hur,after listening to the speeches of Imam Hussein (as) and noticing the evil of his own army and their bad intentions,switched sides!!!he left his own side and rushed on his horse to Imam Hussein (as) and asked for forgiveness.Imam Hussein (as) forgave him and Hur repented openly right there.Hur (RA) also demanded to be the first martyr in Karbala defending Imam Hussein (as).from becoming the number enemy on the battlefield,Hur (RA) became the number defender of the Imam (as).so imagine if the Imam (as) would have shown harshness and insisted on fighting his enemies and destroying.do you think they will come close to him? let us also take a verse about the attitude of the holy Prophet (s) :

Holy Quran Verse 3:159
"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust".

You are stretching things. They could be anything (thieves, molesters, fugitive from justice) but their conduct belies their claim that they are making a "religious journey". I cannot understand someone going for hajj and not making salat

Hajj and Ziyara (visitation) are two different things.

you dont destroy a house because a pillar is shaking!!!

You judge intentions too much. I am not a fan of Shias but how many time have I
1. opened threads to lambast Shia. You guys even do that to Sunnis during Ramadan
2. defended Sunni practices (from attacks by non-muslims) by comparing Sunnis to Shias

But above all, I will not dispute with you what a sahaba and grandson (RA) of the Prophet (PBUH) did. I just don't believe that he (RA) will do what was asserted. Compare what you said the host should have done (leniency) to what Shias claimed Hussain (RA) did.

what you asserted or what was asserted (by the wahhabi/salafist designers of the video) in the video (and you are defending) that Imam Hussein (as) is forbidding people from offering salat is a lie.Imam Hussein (as) did not forbid anyone from salat based on the dream the Shia scholar narrated.Imam Hussein (as) was asking for "repelling evil with that which is better".if you insist on this lie,then i see no need to continue discussing with you because you see the lie clear and you are trying to defend it to blackmail the Shia.i ask you to desist from this lie that the Shia scholar in the video is claiming Imam Hussein (as) was forbidding people from praying or even supporting people that do not pray in the act of not praying;instead of understanding the point of showing kindness and hope for repentance.desist from the lie or we call this discussion a day.

Zhul-Fiqar.:
i have done so and i will keep doing so.

As you like

Zhul-Fiqar.:

Noble Quran Verse 41:34 "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that is better: Then will he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate!"

Did you ever remind these folks of the above and some very gentle ayats you have quoted since we should leave forgiveness/justice to Allah


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOZLdqyxpY

Zhul-Fiqar.:
it is not your duty to forgive them.they did nothing wrong to you.

is this different from what I said.

Zhul-Fiqar.:

you dont perform Janaza prayer on the person who left salat,because you dont give him what he abandoned and did not believe in.the prayer goes to Allah,and therefore you cannot pray on someone who abandoned Allah.but that does not give you the right to fight the person and display harshness for his shortcoming when he is alive.you should by all means show kindness to the person so the may change when he is alive.

One point of view
The other is that my ostracizing him might encourage him to change and start praying while alive which is better for him
Than to bring the punishment after death. And we are dealing with people who have some faith in their mind not people who know little about Islam

Zhul-Fiqar.:

let me bring the example of Hur.Hur was one of the generals in the army of Umar Ibn Saad,Yazid's commander.Hur was the one who laid siege to Imam Hussein (as) in Karbala.in the last moment Hur,after listening to the speeches of Imam Hussein (as)

Irrelevant proseltyzation!
You are trying to force me to discuss a man whose actions I should not.
Fact remains Hussain (RA) had the right to plead his (RA) position. He (RA) was the one directly wronged and could chose to forgive or not
Salat is the right of Allah. If a Christian guest does not pray or eat in the afternoon of Ramadan, I will tolerate it
But if I take a STRANGER into my house based on the CLAIM that he is a muslim, especially one who is asserting that he is on a "religious journey" (voluntary or mandatory). He must pray salat. Otherwise I no longer believe him

[quote author=Zhul-Fiqar.]Hajj and Ziyara (visitation) are two different things.

Which is more important? Which is a pillar (Just like Salat)? Which one deserves a higher attention?

Zhul-Fiqar.:
you dont destroy a house because a pillar is shaking!!!

So what is the basis of this analogy. If I am to stretch your analogy. What do you do when you open threads listing why being a sunni is a Bid'ah? When you accuse Sunnis of the atrocities of BH when most Sunnis denounce the misguidance of this tiny majority. Are you building a house when you do that?

Zhul-Fiqar.:

Imam Hussein (as) did not forbid anyone from salat based on the dream the Shia scholar narrated.Imam Hussein (as) was asking for "repelling evil with that which is better".i ask you to desist from this lie that the Shia scholar in the video is claiming Imam Hussein (as) was forbidding people from praying or even supporting people that do not pray in the act of not praying;instead of understanding the point of showing kindness and hope for repentance.desist from the lie or we call this discussion a day

You don't seem to get the argument
I don't believe that dream! It is FICTION. Anybody can dream. And you guys derive conclusions based on some fantastic dreams
This one is CLEARLY wrongly attributed to Hussain (RA).
So my interpretation of it is to show that the dream is baseless

Zhul-Fiqar.:

we call this discussion a day
then i see no need to continue discussing with you because you see the lie clear and you are trying to defend it to blackmail the Shia

As you wish. You can stop responding anytime you wish
It is an irony that you repeatedly abuse and curse people that Sunnis hold dear
But when I disagree with your interpretation of a video, you get angry. The only thing that can come to your mind is that I am abusing Hussain (RA) as if Shias own him, as if Sunnis ever said he committed an offence/a sin, as if Sunnis don't know he is the grandson of the Prophet (PBUH), as if Sunnis don't believe that he was wrongly martyred
If you want ti preach forgiveness and open-mindedness, demonstrate it!

As for blackmail, it is rich coming from you guys. That is the pastime of Shias

Let me show you

Zhul-Fiqar.:
Sunnis don't shy to lie when it comes to religion and even sounding ridiculous

Now this Scholar could have claimed to have seen a dream in making this ridiculous statement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsv7YNjhNB8

Zhul-Fiqar.:
"And pray for them, surely your prayer is a relief to them". (Sura Tauba Ayat 103.)

"And had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the [b]Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft - returning (to mercy), Merciful".[/b] (Surah Nisa: Ayat 64.)

Are we talking about praying for or praying to them?
And on the second, at what time is this? When the Prophet (PBUH) was alive? After his death but before the day of Qiyama? Or after his resurrection on the day of Qiyama?

Zhul-Fiqar.:

1. how does the Shia doing Tawassul with the Prophet (s) at present amount to "shirk"? why not accuse us of "stupidity" or "madness"? why must it be "shirk"?

Because Only ALLAh is to be asked for things that cannot ordinarily be granted by human being (eg good health, safety etc) Anyone who asks any other person is implying that another can grant such things

Zhul-Fiqar.:

2. on what basis is doing Tawassul with the dead "shirk" and doing Tawassul with the living Islamic and acceptable?

Shirk is involved when a human being who is alive is asked to grant things like good health, protection from harm, well-behaved children etc

Zhul-Fiqar.:

3. how did you conclude that we are "praying" to the dead? whether dead or alive,when you do Tawassul to the Prophet (s) you are not "praying" to or worshiping him.correct me if i am wrong.

From this video. The Shia Scholars say


00.34 - 00.43 "today many of our believing brothers if they have someone who is sick, they knock at the door of Hussein, the door of al-Abbas. Al-Hussain and Al-Abbas fulfill his needs, answer his prayers."

2.40 - 2.42 "Ask Sayeda Zainab with the true intention and pure heart in the belief that she will never reject you."

5.37 - 5.40 "Doctor, you are my master, and the visitors are patients; and there is none who can cure them beside you, so lead me however you please"
6.12 - 6.36 "The second way, it is much deeper. When I know for sure that this One by His nature does not give. i come to the one in the tomb...What will I say? I will say ..'I want it from you'
When I believe and know I'm a criminal person and don't have dignity to speak to Allah, what will I say? I will say Abu Hussain. I want it from you"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1AUQ8rEhqM

*confused*.seriously,this is less than my expectations..hmmm.Allah Knows Best

@sexxydivaa; be a muslim. and dont be in a sect.

the pure religion that Muhammad [SA] brought has no sect.

BetaThings:

Did you ever remind these folks of the above and some very gentle ayats you have quoted since we should leave forgiveness/justice to Allah

if you are going to continue this way,we will keep jumping from one issue to another.and obvious from your posts,you are derailing the thread and running from the main topic.yet still i will pin you down.i'm not sure if you are simply confused or something else.but let's see.

as for the above,the case of Aisha is totally a different one from someone who misses salat or doesn't even pray as a Muslim.

this is the case of Aisha when she went against the Imam of her time in the Battle of Jamal:

"if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." (Noble Quran 5:32)

and not all Shia go about celebrating on her death day.mostly its the followers of Sheikh Yassir al-Habib that go about doing that to "piss" Sunnis.

that topic got nothing to do in this thread.you can see this thread on Aisha:

https://www.nairaland.com/1107764/story-sunni-imam-shia-ayatollah/4

One point of view
The other is that my ostracizing him might encourage him to change and start praying while alive which is better for him
Than to bring the punishment after death. And we are dealing with people who have some faith in their mind not people who know little about Islam

sending him out of your house is not the same as "ostracizing" him.stop drifting.

Which is more important? Which is a pillar (Just like Salat)? Which one deserves a higher attention?

am i denying the importance of salat?

So what is the basis of this analogy. If I am to stretch your analogy. What do you do when you open threads listing why being a sunni is a Bid'ah? When you accuse Sunnis of the atrocities of BH when most Sunnis denounce the misguidance of this tiny majority. Are you building a house when you do that?

being a Sunni i not only not following the right thing (like not praying) but outright bid'ah indeed because you are following the handwork of fallible and often sinful men.

You don't seem to get the argument
I don't believe that dream! It is FICTION. Anybody can dream. And you guys derive conclusions based on some fantastic dreams
This one is CLEARLY wrongly attributed to Hussain (RA).
So my interpretation of it is to show that the dream is baseless

oh so now it is no longer "Shia say Hussein is forbidding them from salat".it is now "the dream is fiction".LOL

how do you know it is fiction? who told you that?

As you wish. You can stop responding anytime you wish
It is an irony that you repeatedly abuse and curse people that Sunnis hold dear
But when I disagree with your interpretation of a video, you get angry. The only thing that can come to your mind is that I am abusing Hussain (RA) as if Shias own him, as if Sunnis ever said he committed an offence/a sin, as if Sunnis don't know he is the grandson of the Prophet (PBUH), as if Sunnis don't believe that he was wrongly martyred
If you want ti preach forgiveness and open-mindedness, demonstrate it!

As for blackmail, it is rich coming from you guys. That is the pastime of Shias

Let me show you

this is new in you.for you to say Imam Hussein (as) was unjustly killed is really an improvement coming from you.the wahhabis/salafists you seem so influenced by their thinking believe Yazeed was the "rightful" ruler and Imam Hussein (as) was wrong.so indeed you are coming closer to the truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98bK3V7JNfY

BetaThings:

Are we talking about praying for or praying to them?
And on the second, at what time is this? When the Prophet (PBUH) was alive? After his death but before the day of Qiyama? Or after his resurrection on the day of Qiyama?

we are talking here about Tawassul and not the wahhabi/salafist wet dreams of "shirk".we dont pray to them/him.we pray to Allah.Tawassul can be done till Qiyama and on the day of resurrection,the Prophet's (s) shafa'a (intercession) will be of use.

Because Only ALLAh is to be asked for things that cannot ordinarily be granted by human being (eg good health, safety etc) Anyone who asks any other person is implying that another can grant such things

you have not answered my question.i am talking of Tawassul and not asking someone else to grant you whatever with the intention the thing you are asking for is not by Allah's power but the power of the person you are asking.whoever is a Shia or a Muslim believing in Allah and the Prophet (s),when that person do Tawassul and asks the Prophet (s) to be an approach to Allah,that person in his heart does not believe it is by the Prophet's (s) power or the Imams that anything can be done.the Prophet (s) and his Ahlul-Bayt (as) are only means to reach Allah.there is no might or power except in Allah.

let me take you back to my question.

how does the Shia doing Tawassul with the Prophet (s) at present amount to "shirk"? why not accuse us of "stupidity" or "madness"? why must it be "shirk"?

you do believe Tawassul when the Prophet (s) was alive is permissible.why does it amount to shirk if Tawassul is done,just because the Prophet (s) is physically dead?

i dont know how you jumped to the conclusion to answer me that asking a human being what ordinarily cannot be done by humans is shirk.i did not ask you what is shirk or how asking a human being for something he cannot do *with the intention or belief it is the human being NOT Allah that is doing the action* is shirk.we know if it is done with that intention it is shirk.but we are not talking about that.i am talking about Tawassul,that whatever you ask the Prophet (s) or the righteous and pious servants of Allah is only means for Allah to do your wishes and accept your prayer.i keep asking you on Tawassul,which you admit "was" permissible,and you keep talking about "shirk".its all in your head.as for our intentions,we dont believe in any god other than Allah,and we dont believe the prophets or holy imams are independent of Allah.spare us your shirk scarecrow.you still dont want to face reality and see the fact that doing Tawassul when the Prophet (s) was alive, and thereafter still doing it when he is dead cannot amount to "shirk" in anyway.like i said,accuse us of "madness" or "stupidity" for doing Tawassul with the dead who cannot hear to seek Allah's pleasure for us.but that doesnt amount to shirk.

Shirk is involved when a human being who is alive is asked to grant things like good health, protection from harm, well-behaved children etc

that is not my question.

i did not ask you to tell me what constitute shirk with the living.i asked about Tawassul,not shirk.

on what basis is doing Tawassul with the dead "shirk" and doing Tawassul with the living Islamic and acceptable?

and your statement above about asking the living and shirk,can be true when you are asking some ordinary person like BetaThing or myself that have no elevated status with Allah,like prophethood or imamate.it can also be true if you ask a chosen servant of Allah things such as good health,if you have the intention that it is by the power of that servant of Allah (independent of Allah) that your request is granted.not when you believe the person is still a creature and servant of Allah (even though chosen) and by himself he can do nothing.

also,if asking for health from a prophet is shirk,then what do you say about those blind people who would come to Prophet Jesus (as) to be healed or the dead he gave life to? was that shirk too? Prophet Jesus (as) was performing things which according to you if sought from even a living person amount to shirk.you can clearly see that by the power and permission of Allah,it is not shirk to ask for these things.in the Quran as recorded,Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate (do rukoo) to Adam (as),and that is not shirk.why? do you care to tell us?

From this video. The Shia Scholars say


00.34 - 00.43 "today many of our believing brothers if they have someone who is sick, they knock at the door of Hussein, the door of al-Abbas. Al-Hussain and Al-Abbas fulfill his needs, answer his prayers."

2.40 - 2.42 "Ask Sayeda Zainab with the true intention and pure heart in the belief that she will never reject you."

5.37 - 5.40 "Doctor, you are my master, and the visitors are patients; and there is none who can cure them beside you, so lead me however you please"
6.12 - 6.36 "The second way, it is much deeper. When I know for sure that this One by His nature does not give. i come to the one in the tomb...What will I say? I will say ..'I want it from you'
When I believe and know I'm a criminal person and don't have dignity to speak to Allah, what will I say? I will say Abu Hussain. I want it from you"

you can ask the chosen ones of Allah anything.it is tawassul.it doesnt mean they are independent of Allah or it is by their own power.you are judging the intentions of others.when i ask the Prophet (s) for so and so,i believe in my mind my request can only be granted only if Allah wills and accepts my request and the role of the Prophet (s) as "waseela" (approach) because the Prophet (s) can neither go against the will of Allah,and also nothing can be granted against the will of Allah.stop judging people who believe in the Oneness of Allah and do not believe there is any "god" beside(s) Allah.i cant say you are worshipping the Ka'ba when you face the Qiblah,because i dont judge your intention to insist that the Ka'ba is what you are worshipping or it is in fact your own "god".

"The basis of Intercession in Shia thought"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbY_k-GR8Us

"Is Intercession a form of Shirk" (in five parts)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjufscuXtQo

Praying Infront Of A Grave - Is It Shirk Or Not


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8PH-NXmfTQ

Sweetnecta: @sexxydivaa; be a muslim. and dont be in a sect.

the pure religion that Muhammad [SA] brought has no sect.

there is no escape from this Shia-Sunni issue or divide.it is historical and affects even the day to day practices.there are many contentious issues which you must face if you decide to stand on your own as an independent party to the two opposing sides in Islam.how do you decide issues like mut'ah,taraweeh,and others? you must examine the facts.and you just cannot do as others are doing for the sake of just been seen as "Muslim",else you'd be torn apart.it is better to be educated on these matters even if your choice is wrong,than to sit on the fence.

@Rafidi:

by Rafidi : 12:36pm

Sweetnecta: @sexxydivaa; be a muslim. and dont be in a sect.

the pure religion that Muhammad [SA] brought has no sect.


there is no escape from this Shia-Sunni issue or divide.it is historical and affects even the day to day practices.there are many contentious issues which you must face if you decide to stand on your own as an independent party to the two opposing sides in Islam.how do you decide issues like mut'ah,taraweeh,and others? you must examine the facts.and you just cannot do as others are doing for the sake of just been seen as "Muslim",else you'd be torn apart.it is better to be educated on these matters even if your choice is wrong,than to sit on the fence.

my brother, i know what you mean. my prayer is that Allah help us all and don't make our deeds that are good go to waste.

most of my friends know my position. i am a muslim and i end it like that. whatever i didnt head the messenger [SA] and his companions [RA} did, i run away from it. you will never see me in any assalaatu. i dont make sunnah in masjid, except if i am not going to be home between salah. i will not practice mut'ah even if its permissible the same way i will not marry my cousin. or 2 cousins at the same time as my dad [ra] dd. i can make taraweeh on my own. in the past 7 years or so, i have made it on my own. i can also lead my family. or pray it in a jama'ah. i am a believer that if i do basic islam properly, i can actually ingnore the parts where people differ. we all agree that Allah is The Proper Name of Our One God and His Last Messenger being the only one to all creations is Muhammad [SA]. we agree there are 5 daily salah and their numbers we all agree upon. we agree that zakat and sadaqah are import. so is sawn/fasting and Hajj is also. we agree that doing good and forbidden evil and guiding our tongue and private parts are important. if i can struggle through these, i am okay instead of supporting saudi or iran. neither one of them will lead me to jannah or prevent me from jahannam.

i think i have spent 1/3 of my life, already. i think if i improve on the above, i am okay as long as i have hope in Allah. i just dont want us to drag ourselves into things that are unnecessary when we can seek improvement of self and the collective community. Did Ali bin AbiTaiib practice Mut'ah or went against the people who made taraweeh? I am just asking and as I have said, i will not marry y cousin because there are are women outside my family for e to choose from.

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.

This is quite interesting. Some of the topics presented here are the same topics that have been discussed in the 'Shia Encyclopedia' I've posted and also in a video I'm viewing here; 'it is a must watch' video:

"Misconceptions of Shi'a" - Ammar Nakhshwani Lecture at MIT



Wassalaam. DevotedOne

Zhul-Fiqar.:


if you are going to continue this way,we will keep jumping from one issue to another.and obvious from your posts,you are derailing the thread and running from the main topic.yet still i will pin you down.i'm not sure if you are simply confused or something else.but let's see.

as for the above,the case of Aisha is totally a different one from someone who misses salat or doesn't even pray as a Muslim.

this is the case of Aisha when she went against the Imam of her time in the Battle of Jamal:

"if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." (Noble Quran 5:32)

and not all Shia go about celebrating on her death day.mostly its the followers of Sheikh Yassir al-Habib that go about doing that to "piss" Sunnis.

that topic got nothing to do in this thread.you can see this thread on Aisha:

What is the main issue? T[b]his thread is about nature of Shia Islam as the true way[/b]
A man welcomed very warmly people who claimed to be muslims and later turned them out because they did not pray. It is claimed that he committed a sin. So why is he entitled to forgiveness while Aisha is not qualified.
And LagosShia, the leader of NL Shias have consistently said that it is Sunnis that have all these confusing positions on issues. He asserts that you are united in your views. You never contested that when he was around. Please withdraw that claim that it is only some Shias that abuse Aisha.
I don't really want to run around NL trying to digest all these threads.

Zhul-Fiqar.:
sending him out of your house is not the same as "ostracizing" him.stop drifting.

So what is it?

Zhul-Fiqar.:
am i denying the importance of salat?

So when did those guys pray? So what punishment were they given for delaying the prayer. I know from the story the punishment for those who sent them out of his house. The story is designed to teach lessons. You have an opportunity to provide it

Zhul-Fiqar.:
being a Sunni i not only not following the right thing (like not praying) but outright bid'ah indeed because you are following the handwork of fallible and often sinful men.

Every person that I know of including the leader of all Men, the one with the EXCELLENT character, Prophet Muhhammad ibn Abdullah (PBUH) sought forgiveness from Allah

Zhul-Fiqar.:
oh so now it is no longer "Shia say Hussein is forbidding them from salat".it is now "the dream is fiction".LOL

Stop laughing please. I never believed the story. Do you believe it? Because if you do and we now proceed to analyse it, you will be committing sins. Note the plural, BTW, remember that you may indulge in sophistry on the matter, others who are reading can make up their minds

Zhul-Fiqar.:
do you know it is fiction? who told you that?

Look at this. Some people sat through it and believed it. They believed it was true. Do you?
Pardon the commentaries. I did not make the video. So I cannot edit it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0SaipSR_Lk

Zhul-Fiqar.:

this is new in you.for you to say Imam Hussein (as) was unjustly killed is really an improvement coming from you.the wahhabis/salafists you seem so influenced by their thinking believe Yazeed was the "rightful" ruler and Imam Hussein (as) was wrong.so indeed you are coming closer to the truth.

So your own thinking is so independent that you cannot be influenced? I am the only one who can be influenced? And what are you trying to do here to me?

You justify your opinion on this matter by quoting one person. Is that the only Sunni opinion, even in Saudi Arabia? I can post videos of people whose opinions are different from his. But you just assumed that there is a consensus

BTW What is the truth?

You claim that I judge the intention of people.Right? Anyway,
I CHALLENGE YOU (ZHUL FIQAR) TO BRING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT MY ASSERTION THAT HUSSAIN (RA) WAS UNJUSTLY KILLED IS AN IMPROVEMENT ON MY(BETATHINGS) POSITION. AND I hope you will not twist this or run away from it.

^

i think i am done with you in this thread (even though i'd try to entertain your post with replies if i can).

this is for you and make sure you watch it (it is based on scholarly research using books and not based on twisted thinking,ill-logic and contempt) :

https://www.nairaland.com/1140610/wahhabism-exposed

BetaThings:


What is the main issue? T[b]his thread is about nature of Shia Islam as the true way[/b]
A man welcomed very warmly people who claimed to be muslims and later turned them out because they did not pray. It is claimed that he committed a sin. So why is he entitled to forgiveness while Aisha is not qualified.
And LagosShia, the leader of NL Shias have consistently said that it is Sunnis that have all these confusing positions on issues. He asserts that you are united in your views. You never contested that when he was around. Please withdraw that claim that it is only some Shias that abuse Aisha.
I don't really want to run around NL trying to digest all these threads.

you are still insisting on taking us to the topic of Aisha.Aisha is disliked by all Shia.as for the issue of abuse,that is a big term.our dislike can manifest in different ways.however,in order not to offend Sunnis,we are taught to avoid talking about her because there is nothing good to remember when you consider all she did in a balanced way free from favor or fear.what the followers or rather associates of Sheikh Yasser al-Habib are doing by commemorating on the day she died as a day of joy is basically to piss Sunnis,nothing more nothing less.i dont even know when Aisha died and i dont even care.it is nothing important.Sheikh Yasser al-Habib was exiled from his native Kuwait by Sunnis (or if you like to depict their extremism,call them wahhabis/salafists).his citizenship was revoked.he has issues that are also personal.so exercise some understanding on the facts here.

So what is it?

if you want someone to change his ways or bad habit,like not praying or taking prayers lightly,you need to talk to him even if it is harshly.but sending the person away or driving him out of your house,knowing that the person is a stranger is no method to convince him to pray or talk sense into his skull.

So when did those guys pray? So what punishment were they given for delaying the prayer. I know from the story the punishment for those who sent them out of his house. The story is designed to teach lessons. You have an opportunity to provide it

in the shariah is there any punishment for someone who doesn't pray? how do you even know the person is not praying? anyone can lie if the person is really evil and not bent on praying.its the same about fasting.i have been lectured that fasting is the sincerest of worship.when you are fasting it is only you and God.you can eat secretly and pretend to be fasting.so fasting is a test of sincerity.we can also draw that parallel when it comes to salat.

Every person that I know of including the leader of all Men, the one with the EXCELLENT character, Prophet Muhhammad ibn Abdullah (PBUH) sought forgiveness from Allah

because Allah is the Creator and we are the created.even th thought of a creature posing that he is sinless and does not need God's forgiveness or not doing "istighfar" (which is also translated as seeking nearness or protection,alongside seeking forgiveness) is arrogance.and the Prophet (s) was far from being arrogant.

Stop laughing please. I never believed the story. Do you believe it? Because if you do and we now proceed to analyse it, you will be committing sins. Note the plural, BTW, remember that you may indulge in sophistry on the matter, others who are reading can make up their minds

the fact is you can NEVER ever prove that what that man was preaching was not an actual dream,or that he made up a story to impart his message.only God knows.

Look at this. Some people sat through it and believed it. They believed it was true. Do you?
Pardon the commentaries. I did not make the video. So I cannot edit it

how do the two relate? or you just want to find another way of popping up another topic.

it is the consensus of Shia scholars that there is no addition or subtraction of the present-day Quran we have,and it is as it was revealed.

check this:
https://www.nairaland.com/860351/shiahs-not-believe-present-quran

the scholar in the video was citing a hadith.hadiths about the distortion of the Quran are present in both Sunni and Shia narrations.that is reality even in sahih bukhari,the most authentic sunni book of hadith.however,upon closer study,you see these narrations are either fabricated or full of errors.in the above link i gave,there is a comprehensive work by Ayatollah Abu'l Qassim al-Khoei refuting and explaining the hadiths that cast doubt or argument on the Quran.

i also noticed that a portion from the scholar's statement was cut out where he cited a hadith about subtraction.yet we didnt see the entire lecture to know what he was saying in context.he may have been explaining that such hadiths are fabricated hadiths to cast doubt on the Quran.he may actually be refuting the hadiths.but a statement was just randomly picked out and used to atack the Shia.its unfair! at least let us know the context in which that statement was made so we can judge,especially that the same scholar did categorically say there is no distortion in the Quran.so we should know in what context was the same scholar referring to a random hadith.

You justify your opinion on this matter by quoting one person. Is that the only Sunni opinion, even in Saudi Arabia? I can post videos of people whose opinions are different from his. But you just assumed that there is a consensus

BTW What is the truth?

You claim that I judge the intention of people.Right? Anyway,
I CHALLENGE YOU (ZHUL FIQAR) TO BRING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT MY ASSERTION THAT HUSSAIN (RA) WAS UNJUSTLY KILLED IS AN IMPROVEMENT ON MY(BETATHINGS) POSITION. AND I hope you will not twist this or run away from it.

the wahhabi scholar in that video is the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.he is also a direct descendant of Ibn Abdul-Wahab,the founder of the wahhabiya movement.the verdict of the mufti in any country is binding upon the scholars.he is the highest religious authority in Sunni countries,even though most often the muftis are government employed and can merely be seen as government employees.

as regarding you,i am happy you dont share the opinion of the saudi grand mufti on Imam Hussein (as).i am in fact relieved.i believe there is hope for you.you just need to stop watchig malicious videos delieberately designed to defame the Shia and take you further away from the truth.the truth is the path of Muhammad (s) and Aal-Muhammad (as),which we Shia abide to.i said i am relieved you dont share the opinion of the saudi mufti,because you have previous associated yourself with Ibn Abdul-Wahab and displayed wahhabi/salafist ideas in our debates and discussions.i do know Sunnis (the mainstream) do not have a good view of Yazid and they say they love Imam Hussein (as)-regardless of what i think about their "love".but my dear friend you have to know that with the billions of petro-dollars,the saudis who are wahhabis/salafists are doing utmost in exporting their ideology as the prevailing Sunni beliefs and ideology.and under the banner of "Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah" which is meant to deceive the unsuspecting,the wahhabis/salafists are succeeding in infiltrating the Sunnis.a normal mainstream Sunni guy can easily be convinced using Sunni sources about why he should be a Shia.but a Sunni under influence of wahhabism/salafism is very difficult to convince because of his mental build-up on issues like accusing others of "shirk" (idolatry/polytheism) and making other false accusations meant to defame and demonize.and you know the saudi petro-money is there.they dont work for it.

when you closely observe the beliefs of the Shia and mainstream Sunnis on Tawassul and Yazid,you see that Shia and mainstream Sunnis are more close,than mainstream Sunnis and Sunnis that are "wahhabized"/"salafized".but the wahhabis/salafists find it easier to infiltrate the mainstream Sunni youth like yourself because they operate under the banner of "ahlus-sunnah wal jama'ah".and the danger of wahhabism/salafism if not stopped by people like you is grave to the very existence of this ummah and the religion of Islam!

Saudi Wahhabis Name School In Honor Of Yazeed
https://www.nairaland.com/868603/saudi-wahhabis-name-school-honor

Zhul-fiqar:

you are still insisting on taking us to the topic of Aisha.Aisha is disliked by all Shia.as for the issue of abuse,

I have issues who dislike Aisha. Allah will judge ALL of us on the day of Qiyama. I am I safe hellfire? I don't know. So why judge anyone

Zhul-fiqar:
if you want someone to change his ways or bad habit,like not praying or taking prayers lightly,you need to talk to him even if it is harshly.but sending the person away or driving him out of your house,knowing that the person is a stranger is no method to convince him to pray or talk sense into his skull.

An opinion which I don't share

Zhul-fiqar:
in the shariah is there any punishment for someone who doesn't pray? how do you even know the person is not praying?

The answer to your questions are already in the story. Watch the movie again

Zhul-fiqar:
because Allah is the Creator and we are the created.even th thought of a creature posing that he is sinless and does not need God's forgiveness or not doing "istighfar" (which is also translated as seeking nearness or protection,alongside seeking forgiveness) is arrogance.and the Prophet (s) was far from being arrogant.

So your saying some people may be sinful is unnecessary. No one is immune

Zhul-fiqar:
how do the two relate? or you just want to find another way of popping up another topic.

The same person states different position on the same issue. Refute the poster if you truly believe that the Shia Scholar might have been distorted. To me, he is a liar. So the dream about the people who did not pray is in the same class

Zhul-fiqar:
it is the consensus of Shia scholars that there is no addition or subtraction of the present-day Quran we have,and it is as it was revealed. check this:
https://www.nairaland.com/860351/shiahs-not-believe-present-quran

Kailani, the author of Al Kafi, no less a figure, believes that the Qur'an was distorted

Zhul-fiqar:
the wahhabi scholar in that video is the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.the verdict of the mufti in any country is binding upon the scholars.

A grand Mufti is a human being, very fallible.
Some scholars have been known to disagree with the Grand Mufti

Zhul-fiqar:
the founder of the wahhabiya movement.the verdict of the mufti in any country is binding upon the scholars.he is the highest religious authority in Sunni countries,even though most often the muftis are government employed and can merely be seen as government employees.

It is Shias that call people Wahhabis. Even your brother, LagosShia, has called me WhhabiThing
I don't know people who call themselves Wahhabis. Neither do I know that Wahhabiya movement

Zhul-fiqar:
as regarding you,i am happy you dont share the opinion of the saudi grand mufti on Imam Hussein (as).i am in fact relieved.i believe there is hope for you.you just need to stop watchig malicious videos delieberately designed to defame the Shia and take you further away from the truth.the truth is the path of Muhammad (s) and Aal-Muhammad (as),which we Shia abide to.

So out the "malicious Wahhabi" videos
I now need to immerse my brain in the "benevolent" Shia videos
Great!

Zhul-fiqar:
i said i am relieved you dont share the opinion of the saudi mufti,because you have previous associated yourself with Ibn Abdul-Wahab and displayed wahhabi/salafist ideas in our debates and discussions.i do know Sunnis (the mainstream)
do not have a good view of Yazid and they say they love Imam Hussein (as)-regardless of what i think about their "love"

I listen to everyone. I find a great deal of the ideas of Shayk Ibn Abdul Wahhab very very sensible
I am convinced that Hussein (RA) was unjustly killed with members of his family. Incidentally there is a video of a Saudi you would call a "Wahhabi" which puts this Hussein (RA) matter beyond doubt
But Allah will judge (with His incomparable Knowledge and Wisdom) on the day of Qiyama

Zhul-fiqar:
.but my dear friend you have to know that with the billions of petro-dollars,the saudis who are wahhabis/salafists are doing utmost in exporting their ideology as the prevailing Sunni beliefs and ideology.

Exactly what everyone is trying to do, including you and I, with or without money .

Zhul-fiqar:
and under the banner of "Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah" which is meant to deceive the unsuspecting,the wahhabis/salafists are succeeding in infiltrating the Sunnis.a normal mainstream Sunni guy can easily be convinced using Sunni sources about why he should be a Shia.but a Sunni under influence of wahhabism/salafism is very difficult to convince because of his mental build-up on issues like accusing others of "shirk" (idolatry/polytheism) and making other false accusations meant to defame and demonize.and you know the saudi petro-money is there.they dont work for it.

The hardest people to convince ever, in my opinion and experience, are the Shias. They never concede anything!

Zhul-fiqar:
when you closely observe the beliefs of the Shia and mainstream Sunnis on Tawassul and Yazid,you see that Shia and mainstream Sunnis are more close,than mainstream Sunnis and Sunnis that are "wahhabized"/"salafized".but the wahhabis/salafists find it easier to infiltrate the mainstream Sunni youth like yourself because they operate under the banner of "ahlus-sunnah wal jama'ah".and the danger of wahhabism/salafism if not stopped by people like you is grave to the very existence of this ummah and the religion of Islam!

Saudi Wahhabis Name School In Honor Of Yazeed
https://www.nairaland.com/868603/saudi-wahhabis-name-school-honor

The so-called Wahhabis tell me that Shias too are very dangerous to Islam.
Shias are not infallible. Why have you never brought any evidence of such a disreputable act by Shias to balance all of these?
I would believe you more if you show that the Shias are human!

BetaThings:
I have issues who dislike Aisha. Allah will judge ALL of us on the day of Qiyama. I am I safe hellfire? I don't know. So why judge anyone

Imam Amir-ul-Mu'mineen Ali [a] said: "O' Kumayl! Say what is just in any condition. Be friends with the righteous and avoid the evil doers, stay away from the hypocrites and do not accompany the treacherous."

Mustadrak-ul-Wasa'il, vol. 12, p. 197

The answer to your questions are already in the story. Watch the movie again

what's the punishment for someone who doesn't pray in the sharia.simple question.tell us.

The same person states different position on the same issue. Refute the poster if you truly believe that the Shia Scholar might have been distorted. To me, he is a liar. So the dream about the people who did not pray is in the same class

someone says he saw a dream,and you are accusing him of lying about the dream.are you ok?

Kailani, the author of Al Kafi, no less a figure, believes that the Qur'an was distorted

liar!

https://www.nairaland.com/860351/shiahs-not-believe-present-quran#10097518

A grand Mufti is a human being, very fallible.
Some scholars have been known to disagree with the Grand Mufti

so how come a school is named in saudi arabia in honor of yazid if the mufti was mistaken? the position that yazid was a "legitimate" ruler and Imam Hussein (as) was "wrong" is the prevailing view among the tiny wahhabis/salafists among Sunnis.

It is Shias that call people Wahhabis. Even your brother, LagosShia, has called me WhhabiThing
I don't know people who call themselves Wahhabis. Neither do I know that Wahhabiya movement

deception.

The hardest people to convince ever, in my opinion and experience, are the Shias. They never concede anything!

liar!

BetaThings: Trying to explain away the lie in the 2nd video does YOU no credit
The man apologised for his lies. So what is the point in defending it?
If you continue like this, you will only end up achieving the opposite of every intention you have

https://www.nairaland.com/1140610/wahhabism-exposed#13518361

The so-called Wahhabis tell me that Shias too are very dangerous to Islam.
Shias are not infallible. Why have you never brought any evidence of such a disreputable act by Shias to balance all of these?
I would believe you more if you show that the Shias are human!

no they are "monsters".

DevotedOne: Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.

This is quite interesting. Some of the topics presented here are the same topics that have been discussed in the 'Shia Encyclopedia' I've posted and also in a video I'm viewing here; 'it is a must watch' video:

"Misconceptions of Shi'a" - Ammar Nakhshwani Lecture at MIT



Wassalaam. DevotedOne

I have watched the video of Amar in MIT. Explained some concepts but left out some

Watch this too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDif7mH_cs

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.


Hmm. That is, a switch. So, who are we to listen to? Wassalaam.. DevotedOne

DevotedOne: Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.


Hmm. That is, a switch. So, who are we to listen to? Wassalaam.. DevotedOne

You asked me to listen to Amar. I did
I even downloaded it to playback
I suggest you listen to ALL and then make up your mind

@devoted one,i guess u didnt watch d bilal philips u posted.you've just put a banana peel in ur steps,don't blame anybody for ur slip.In football i think it's called ESCOBA. @devoted one,i guess u didnt watch d bilal philips u posted.you've just put a banana peel in ur steps,don't blame anybody for ur slip.In football i think it's called ESCOBA.

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.

You asked me to listen to Amar. I did
I even downloaded it to playback
I suggest you listen to ALL and then make up your mind

I've made up my mind. I'll just leave those videos alone until I've finished my study of the Shi'ite Encyclopedia literature I started with (re: on the first page). Thanks for your help.


Wassalaam. DevotedOne

In The Name of The Only One, The Almighty, The Eternal, The Self-Subsisting in Whom All subsist. Peace be upon you, everyone.

bntY: @devoted one,i guess u didnt watch d bilal philips u posted.you've just put a banana peel in ur steps,don't blame anybody for ur slip.In football i think it's called ESCOBA. @devoted one,i guess u didnt watch d bilal philips u posted.you've just put a banana peel in ur steps,don't blame anybody for ur slip.In football i think it's called ESCOBA.

I watched the Bilal Phillips video. What did I miss? I guess that it's permissible to slip as long as we learn from it.


Wa salaam. DevotedOne

DevotedOne: Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him.

I've made up my mind. I'll just leave those videos alone until I've finished my study of the Shi'ite Encyclopedia literature I started with (re: on the first page). Thanks for your help.

Wassalaam. DevotedOne

Interesting. You made up your mind before watching the video?
Why did you open this thread and put up the videos then?

BTW the Amar's video you posted is more than 1 hr 41 mins long. And I watched it in FULL
Bilal's is 7 and a half mins. And I watched it
The one I posted is less than 6 mins. And you don't have the time to watch it!

It would be hard to believe that you are sincere and want genuine exchange of ideas

DevotedOne: In The Name of The Only One, The Almighty, The Eternal, The Self-Subsisting in Whom All subsist. Peace be upon you, everyone.

I watched the Bilal Phillips video. What did I miss? I guess that it's permissible to slip as long as we learn from it.

Wa salaam. DevotedOne

It is clear from the video that Bilal Philips is not Shia
So what he says is different from the topic of your post or even your comments
So we believe that you watched it and the only option left is that you assumed that we would not watch it and fall for your propaganda that Bilal Philips speaks in favour of Shi'ism
If you believe that is being unfair, then we settle for the alternative that you lied originally (that you watched it) and you have done so again

BetaThings:

It is clear from the video that Bilal Philips is not Shia
So what he says is different from the topic of your post or even your comments
So we believe that you watched it and the only option left is that you assumed that we would not watch it and fall for your propaganda that Bilal Philips speaks in favour of Shi'ism
If you believe that is being unfair, then we settle for the alternative that you lied originally (that you watched it) and you have done so again

In a Religion by propaganda it is very fair indeed

^^^^
So I am beginning to understand
May Allah save us from misguidance and fitna

BetaThings:

I have watched the video of Amar in MIT. Explained some concepts but left out some

Watch this too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDif7mH_cs

refer to these:

LagosShia:

firstly when it is said that Allah is everywhere,it does not mean Allah (swt) is physically everywhere.through His knowledge,spirit and power He is everywhere.that why we believe Allah (swt) has the knowledge of the unseen and the knowledge of the nafs.

as for your second question,we (Shia) believe that Allah (swt) created the entire universe because of love for Muhammad and Aal Muhammad (sa).the entire universe was created because of the love Allah (swt) has for Muhammad and his Ahlul-Bayt (as) i.e. Muhammad,Fatima,Ali,Hassan,Hussain and the 9 Imams from the line of Hussain (may peace and blessings be upon them all).Muhammad (sa) is the greatest and best creation of Allah (swt).according to hadith Muhammad (sa) and Ali (as) are created from the same nur (light) and tree.the good tree mentioned in Surat-an-Nur is the tree of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad (sa).also that is why in hadith you hear the Prophet (sa) saying:"Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain".that is because they are one and the same.

you most likely would ask me where is the proof that Allah (swt) created the entire universe because of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad (as)? the evidence is in Hadith al-Kisa.Jibril (as) stated that Allah (swt) said if not for the love of them (those who took part in Mubahilah),Allah (swt) would not have created anything.now you may say what about other prophets.the answer is Muhammad (sa) is the greastest and best of them all and master of them all.

please watch a narration of Hadith al-Kisa with english subtitles:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFuAKucK264&feature=related

LagosShia:
it is only a confuse mind that would take the proof Allah (swt) has made and the reason manifest He has perfected and put as mercy, for injustice.since you (as a "submitter" or follower of Rashad Khalifa) do not accept any hadith,i will prove you wrong and make my case solely using the Holy Quran.

the logic and reason for saying that Allah (swt) created the entire universe for the love of Muhammad (sa) and Aal Muhammad (sa) is just.based on the verse you presented (49:13),the best in Allah's sight is the most pious.i will show you with a few verses that Muhammad (sa) and Aal Muhammad (sa) are the best in Allah's sight.also,if not for the mercy of Allah,no creature deserve to remain on earth because of our wrongdoing and our will-full actions which make us undeserved to be the servants of Allah (swt).and also the mercy of Allah (swt) is Muhammad (sa) and he is the best for us to emulate.therefore if not for the closeness and love (through mercy) Allah (swt) has for His best of creatures,mankind is undeserving to be on earth!my case therefore in this post/reply is to demonstrate to you that it is not unjust but perfect justice when we say (as stated in my previous post quoting hadith al-kisa),that Allah (swt) created the entire universe for the love of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad (sa).there is no question of injustice when we say Allah (swt) created and even sustains the universe for the love of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad (sa) because mankind is undeserving (by their actions) and Muhammad and Aal Muhammad are exemplarily righteous and most submissive to Allah (swt) and superior to us and their love by mankind is a divine command in the Quran.

who is the best in Allah's sight?
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)"[49:13]


do humans deserve to remain on earth if Allah (swt) is to apply His justice and take into account the deeds of all creatures?
"If Allah were to punish men for their wrongdoing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)". [16:61]

if you say it is Allah's mercy that makes Him to bear with us and give us respite,that very mercy is manifested in Muhammad (sa):

"We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures".[21:107]


Is Muhammad (sa) the most righteous and best example for all mankind?
"And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not" [34:28]

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much."(33:21)

"Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them) they were in flagrant error".[3:164]

"And Verily, you (O Muhammad) are on an exalted standard of character".[68:4]


The Love Of Aal Muhammad Is A Divine Command
"That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of my Ahlul-Bayt." And if anyone earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service)". [42:23]


Lower Youselves In The Prsence of The Messenger
"O ye who believe! put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger: but fear Allah: for Allah is He who hears and knows all things.O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.Those that lower their voice in the presence of Allah's Messenger― their hearts has Allah tested for piety: for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward.Those who shout out to thee from without the Inner Apartments― most of them lack understanding.If only they had patience until thou couldst come out to them, it would be best for them: but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful".[49:1-4]

LagosShia:

Purpose/Duty,and Cause Are Separate

i had in mind that someone would raise the verse of the Quran that says:"I have not created man and jin except to worship me".

the purpose/duty God made man and jin for including Muhammad (sa) and Aal Muhammad (sa) is to worship Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) alone.

the duty/purpose/use of creation which is worship and Allah's love for Muhammad (sa) are inter-related and consistent (not contradictory).Allah's love for Muhammad (sa) comes from his piety and worship of Allah (swt) according to Allah's plan for creation.God made us to worship Him.but it is the love for Muhammad (sa) that made Him to create us to worship Him (as our duty) and furthermore sustain us,who are very sinful and many of us do not fulfill our duty to Allah (swt) as expected of us.we have our shortcomings.Allah (swt) loves Muhammad (sa) because he is the best of us.the best of us in the sight of Allah is the most pious.Muhammad (sa) passed his test and did not fail Allah (swt) and fulfilled his duty as expected.therefore there is reason and justification for Allah (swt) creating us.the proof (hujjah) Allah (swt) will present against us when judging us is Muhammad (sa).he is the standard and that is why we should be like him.

so really,you should be very careful and not jump into conclusions as our "submitter" friend to use a word like "digusting".as for the Prophet (sa) existing (physically) before Adam (as),no one says that.we (Shia) believe that Muhammad (sa) being the Seal of the Messengers,was in the plan of Allah (swt) before creation.Allah (swt) was going to create us to test us and the plan was set before creation.the plan of Allah (swt) is perfect and He has the knowledge of the unseen.

LagosShia:

there is no where anyone denied that the purpose or duty for creating mankind is to worship Allah alone.that point is not even related to what the OP asked.the OP asked us to explain what it means that Allah (swt) created everything because of His love for Muhammad (sa).that has nothing to do with the purpose God created man for or the duty assigned to him.why mix the two up?

LagosShia: what is wrong with this statement:

out of love for Muhammad s.a. (who epitomizes complete worship and submission) God created all else to worship Him? how does that deny that the duty of man to his Lord is to worship Him?

https://www.nairaland.com/913503/allah-everywhere#10688009

BetaThings: ^^^^
So I am beginning to understand
May Allah save us from misguidance and fitna

like this you mean:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoGjqkUMz0

Zhul-fiqar:
Militants can marry Syrian women: Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia

[img]http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20121231/pirhayati20121231051834147.jpg[/img]
Hard-line Saudi Wahabi cleric Sheikh Mohammed al-Arifi


Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:22AM GMT

A hard-line Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia has recently issued a special religious decree that permits the militants in Syria to engage in short-term marriages with Syrian women.

Sheikh Mohammed al-Arifi said that the marriages between the foreign-backed militants and Syrian women will satisfy the militants’ sexual desires and boost their determination in killing Syrians.

He added that the marriages, dubbed by him as “intercourse marriages,” can be with Syrian females as young as 14 years old.

He also promised “paradise” for those who marry the militants.

Arifi has issued similar decrees in the past in support of the violence in Syria.

He has also been organizing a fundraiser for the militant groups fighting Syrian government forces.

Syria has been experiencing unrest since March 2011. Many people, including large numbers of security forces, have been killed in the turmoil.

The Syrian government says the chaos is being orchestrated from outside the country as there are reports that a very large number of the militants are foreign nationals.

MP/SZH/HJL

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/12/31/280993/militants-can-marry-syrian-women/