Reyginus: wow! Quite revealing. The thing is, this people where not really living the christ-life. But God as a merciful Father that he is, allowed them to share in his blessings because they worshipped Him. That you received the holy spirit does not necessarily mean you're living the christ life.

musKeeto:
Who then is a Christian?

One who occasionally reflects a Christ-life or one who continously does so?

Please forgive me as I may not have understood your statement quite correctly.

Are you saying 'christianity' is a constant which 'believers' hope to attain?

If a deviation (which I believe refers to sin in this context) causes one to fall below the standards of Christianity, is it right to say there are no 'true' christians? Is it possible for a believer to continually measure up to the 'christ-like' standard?

musKeeto:
Now you're beginning to rationalize things. This isn't too nice for a Christian.

Jesus Christ, the apostles and others all had to be baptized in the Holy Spirit before they started their ministries. Please, tell me, is there something I'm missing?

Can one receive the HOLY spirit and not live the 'Christ-life'? Any examples from the Bible to support your stance would be appreciated.

What role does the Holy Spirit play in the life of a believer? Possessor or Guardian/guide?

Seun: @Reyginus: according to you, Christians may sin "only occasionally" because they.are mere mortals. Can you be more precise about the meaning of "occasional"? Is there a cut off point for the number of sins a Christian can commit in a day and still be considered a Christian? Or is there a point system where committing big sins like homosexuality costs 10 points and little sins like beating your slaves unjustly cost only 1 point, and that you must not accrue more than 10 points every day in order to be continue being a Christian? Please give us the details!

Reyginus: Hmm. It is not about the number of sins you commit a day, but about the believer's willingness to ask for forgiveness. A 'single' occasion of sin can lead you damnation if you don't ask for forgiveness, but one who sins in dozens but asks for forgiveness can be saved.

musKeeto:
Forgiveness? Aren't a believer's sins forgiven once he believes and confesses Jesus as His Lord and Savior? What do you mean by saved? Saved from what exactly?
So are you saying no one is a 'true' Christian? I've never heard of a 'believer' who has been able to completely subject his 'flesh' to control.

Reyginus: Lolol. Are you for real? Lolol.
You really don't understand or you want to joke about it?
Saved too? Are you really asking?

Reyginus: Lolol. Are you for real? Lolol.
You really don't understand or you want to joke about it?
Saved too? Are you really asking?

musKeeto:
I'm for real. When you're saved, aren't you forgiven? You seem to be mixing up lots of things. First, I always thought once a believer received the Holy Spirit, reliance on the Holy Spirit as a guide would help to live a Christ-like life. Now you talk about sinning then asking for forgiveness in order to be saved.. pretty confusing stuff if you ask me...

Logicboy03:



What have I done to you Reginald? Why am I still in your signature? I fear you oo!

Reyginus: You still don't get it. The question is unnecessary.
Let it not be like I'm trying to avoid it.
You see, when you become a child of God you denounce every link you have with any other contrary belief. By the virtue of baptism, your being is renewed and sins forgiven. You are then shown the right practises to remain so. Get this right. Baptism doesn't in any way wipe away your future sins but the past one's prior to it. Now, that you're a saved is wholly dependent on how you carry out your new found faith. When you fall to temptation, your salvation becomes dependent on asking for forgiveness.
This question is not necessary. Except you're looking for a solid loophole.

musKeeto:
Why so defensive all of a sudden? I rarely bring answers to this forum, just questions and I have a lot of them. So please be patient.

SO what exactly is forgiven the first time one's saved?
And are you saying that salvation is lost every time I sin, and regained every time I ask for forgiveness?

Reyginus: ofcourse, sin is forgiven. Yes.

cyrexx:


Hmm, thats quite an impressive story you told.

Before I proceed with mine, I will like to state that the list below are my personal experience and i will NOT expect you to offer rebuttals to them. I may not respond if you do. I have stated earlier that that there is no GENERAL advantage experience that all atheists must have. We all have different experiences with religion, so our advantageous experiences on our recovery from religion will differ.

I will also like to say that I was not a "nominal christian" when I was a christian, I was a born-again fervent christian who fully followed "Christ in spirit and in truth".



Now, here are my own personal experience on advantages of Religious Non-belief (Atheism) over Religious belief (Christianity). You asked for 5, I will give you 16.

1.As an atheist, I enjoy peace of mind now, I never have to worry about whether i please god or not. As a christian, I'm always conscious of not offending the daddy in the sky who had such a weak ego as to get offended every little time a mere mortal disobey his rules. (isnt it funny that the so-called creator of the universe has no serious business to handle than watch out for tiny "ants" and monitor them all around). This does not mean that I live an immoral life, so dont quote-mine

2. As an atheist, I have a broader view of the world and people. As a christian, I see people as either christians or non-christians and thats a narrow view to have.

3. As an atheist, I am @least 10 percent richer. I dont have to give tithes and offering anymore.

4. As an atheist, I am motivated to do all I can in this life, cos thats what we really have for sure. As a christian, I thought I will really live my life when I get to heaven.

5. As an atheist, I never have to try to make sense of biblical contradictions and absurdities. As a christian, I am always trying to defend the biblical contradictions and absurdities.

6. As an atheist, i am curious to learn sciences, including cosmology and evolution without any fear. As a christian, i am always afraid i will lose my faith if delve deeper into some aspects of sciences.

7. As an atheist, I dont have to wait for god to make things happen, I know that my destiny is in my own hands. As a christian, all my life is in god's incompetent hands.

8. As an atheist, religious tricks will never work on me anymore. As a christian, i am susceptible to fall for any good religious tricks.

9. As an atheist, I am curious to learn about other religions, worldviews and mythologies. As a christian, I feel that learning anything that disagrees with my christian faith is dangerous and even demonic.

10. As an atheist, I never have to pretend and apologise for being a human. As a christian, I have to hide my imperfections from people who respect me as a christian.

11. As an atheist, I never have to pretend as if God answers my prayers. As a christian, I always have to make excuses and tell myself god answers when he doesnt.

12. As an atheist, I now have a truly scientific mind that seeks to discover facts about our universe. As a christian, i am content to acknowledge that god-did-it and i dont need to probe his works.

13. As an atheist, i have no fear of satan, witchcraft, curses or demons harming me. As a christian, I am always careful of "not opening doors" for satan, witchcraft, curses and demons through my "unconscious sins".

14. As an atheist, I have a responsibilty to educate mankind and help mankind practically. As a christian, i only think of how i can convert everyone to christianity.

15. As an atheist, I know i am part of a new generation of the future of mankind, a world free of superstition and dogmatic faith. As a christian, I always feel like I am in the end times, that this world will soon be destroyed.

16. As an atheist, i dont have to ask why did god allow such and such to happen to me, now i know that stuff happens and we have to deal with it. As a christian, i never understand why god allows some things to happen to me despite my sincere prayers and faith in his (failed) promises.

Seun: @Reyginus: according to you, Christians may sin only occasionally (because they.are mere mortals). Can you be more precise about the meaning of "occasional"? Is there a cut off point for the number of sins a Christian can commit in a day and still be considered a Christian? Or is there a point system where committing big sins like homosexuality cost 10 points and little sins like beating your slaves unjustly cost only 1 point, and that you must not accrue more than 10 points every day in order to be continue being a Christian? Please give us the details!

musKeeto:
Why so defensive all of a sudden? I rarely bring answers to this forum, just questions and I have a lot of them. So please be patient.

SO what exactly is forgiven the first time one's saved?
And are you saying that salvation is lost every time I sin, and regained every time I ask for forgiveness?

Mr_Anony:
Lol, you are not being sincere. You are asking questions not to find answers but in the hope that you can find something to twist. You are foraging for loopholes and you know it.

musKeeto:

Seems like this is a tough one to wriggle out from...

Seun:

We have illustrated how morality developed, and how it has certainly evolved over time. Societies embraces values and ideals that lead to more prosperity, and children are taught to embrace those values when they are young and impressionable. Those who reject the values are punished and those who embrace them are allowed to thrive. That's what morality is all about. We label certain things as immoral because if they are widely practiced, society would be worse off.. Morality is not a rigid standard. It is flexible and most moral values are not universal. Acts like murder and rape are universally considered to be morally wrong while other acts are judged differently by different cultures and religions due to the differences in the challenges that each society had to overcome over time.

Uyi Iredia:

Your reply doesn't really address the point I raised. Which includes the fact that there is no satisfiable explanation as to how humans evolved morality. Morality evolves quite alright_ I agree with that. However, I strongly disagree that evolution endowed humans with morality.

Logicboy03:


And you wonder why I dont take you seriously.

Logicboy03: After being shown that there is a natural explanation of morality; our basic instincts, logic and society, you still just shout "i dont believe in evolution".

Logicboy03: It has been quite clear that morality is not from God or your bible. You offer no explanation or no evidence. What you say is "i dont know, therefore God".

musKeeto:
Forgiveness? Aren't a believer's sins forgiven once he believes and confesses Jesus as His Lord and Savior? What do you mean by saved? Saved from what exactly?

Uyi Iredia:

I see. Then why did you reply a statement not addressed to you.

Uyi Iredia:
No you didn't. I explained that morality is a product of intelligence. I then asked you how the human brain could have evolved morality. You simply said evolution giving no explanation whatsoever even when I replied in the negative. Without intelligence none of what you've mentioned could possibly define morality. So the question remains Mr logic boy: How did the human brain start to apprehend morality ?

Uyi Iredia:
There is evidence from which we can infer. We know matter or a given constitution of matter lacks morality. Yet we know morality is a product of intelligence which is contingent on the human brain. I therefore infer a non-contingent intelligence (ie God) from which I derive the intelligence required to define morality. Now you explain how morality could arise physically. Start from the question given previously.

Logicboy03:
Morality is based on logic/reasoning not intelligence. Two different words. A rat is an intelligent animal. Intelligence is a very broad term.

We evolved a brain capable of reasoning that other animals didnt. /We know modern humans came 200,000 years ago. The fact is that we know that we came from other animals who didnt have this reasoning ability.

I have answered you question but you keep on repeating and repeating and repeating.......

How did the human brain start to apprehend morality ? << does this question change the fact of what i have been telling you?

Human beings are more than matter and so, your first premise is a failure

Morality is a product of reasoning and logic not intelligence.

No one derives intelligence from God because;

a) your christian god does not exist

b) if even he existed, a pure objective, omnipotent law giver would be unintelligible to humans with a limited human bias of human perception

Logicboy03:

To explain why I dont take you seriously

Logicboy03: Morality is based on logic/reasoning not intelligence. Two different words. A rat is an intelligent animal. Intelligence is a very broad term.

We evolved a brain capable of reasoning that other animals didnt. /We know modern humans came 200,000 years ago. The fact is that we know that we came from other animals who didnt have this reasoning ability.

I have answered you question but you keep on repeating and repeating and repeating.......

How did the human brain start to apprehend morality ? << does this question change the fact of what i have been telling you?

Logicboy03: Human beings are more than matter and so, your first premise is a failure

Morality is a product of reasoning and logic not intelligence.

No one derives intelligence from God because;

a) your christian god does not exist

b) if even he existed, a pure objective, omnipotent law giver would be unintelligible to humans with a limited human bias of human perception

Uyi Iredia:
in·tel·li·gence
[in-tel-i-juh ns] Show IPA
noun
1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
3. the faculty of understanding.
4. knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received or imparted; news; information.
5. the gathering or distribution of information, especially secret information.

from the definitions given reasoning and logic are clearly aspects of intelligence and any attempt to dispute this is an exercise in futility. Now you've been saying humans evolved a brain but that's not the question it's the reasoning ability of the brain (which allows it to apprehend morality) that's the question. Since evolution is a physical process you should be able to detail how the brain started to evolve the intelligence required to apprehend morality. If you can't state an explanation your hypothesis is rendered useless. Therefore, answer the question instead of chanting evolution as if it is a magic wand that solves your quandary.

When I earlier asked what makes human being more than matter you mentioned the reasoning ability of the brain. But clearly this reasoning ability is intangible. We can't see it and it isn't tied down to any one instance. Therefore it is an abstract, intangible and contingent aspect of humans. It is contingent because it needs be expressed via the brain. We therefore must infer a necessary, non-contigent intelligence (ie God). I have explained my case. Your rebuttal fails since it merely asserts without giving reasons. Funny thing is I'm not even talking about the Christian God. I'm given a general definition of God which is shared by theism and deism.

Mr_Anony:
Please read the bold to yourself again....slowly this time.

Mr_Anony:
Actually you haven't answered his question. Summary of what you've been doing is:

Uyi Iredia: How did the brain evolve a morality?

Logicboy: It evolved it.

We have learnt nothing new here.

Mr_Anony:
Really? so there is an immaterial component of man?

Mr_Anony:
Read this again slowly to yourself. Then explain how an it is possible to reason without intelligence

Mr_Anony:
This is just your blind faith speaking so it isn't really worth a response.

Mr_Anony:

Wait for it. He will soon come and tell you how foolish you are because you don't know that the ability to reason and intelligence are two different things.

Mr_Anony:
Please read the bold to yourself again....slowly this time.

Mr_Anony: Actually you haven't answered his question. Summary of what you've been doing is:

Uyi Iredia: How did the brain evolve a morality?

Logicboy: It evolved it.

We have learnt nothing new here.

Mr_Anony: Really? so there is an immaterial component of man?

Mr_Anony: Read this again slowly to yourself. Then explain how an it is possible to reason without intelligence

Mr_Anony: This is just your blind faith speaking so it isn't really worth a response.