KidStranglehold:

Seriously...It should be freaking obvious right now that the Ancient Egyptians with an indigenous African people. Now would they be considered black if they were alive today? Maybe...Did they carry native African genes? Most certainly yes!

Seriously the Upper Egypt which jump started the Ancient Egyptian civilization were most certainly African.

It is very sad indeed my friend. The factor that made up my mind were the quotes from numerous historians who travelled into Egypt, learned from the egyptians and even described them. The very fact that people see these quotes and still deny them shows that it is much more than not knowing, but rather it is willful ignorance.

Also saying that Ancient Egypt is a African civilization is NOT Afrocentric at all. Calling a African Ancient Egypt 'Afrocentric'is the must ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Now saying that African Americans are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians...That's a different story.

Soliloqyofchaos:

It is very sad indeed my friend. The factor that made up my mind was the quotes from numerous historians who travelled into Egypt, learned from the egyptians and even described them. The very fact that people see these quotes and still deny them shows that it is much more than not knowing, but rather it is willful ignorance.

Seriously...There are LITERALLY 1 million ways to prove that the Ancient Egyptians were African. But me like S.O.Y Keita try to refrain from calling the Ancient Egyptians black. Because its not that they weren't black, but its tricky. 'Black' us just a skin color and the Ancient Egyptians varied. And calling the Ancient Egyptians 'Black African' or 'White African' is flawed in academia. I don't confine myself to Eurocentric thinking like 'Black African', 'Sub Saharan African', 'Negroid', 'Black',etc when talking about this subject. That's where people like Diop failed at, even though he did open the doors for a African Ancient Egypt. I just say the Ancient Egyptians were African and that they were no different from their African neighbors like the Afro-Asiatic and Nile Saharan speakers who populated that region during that time.

Sorry if I confused you.

african doesnt mean black


but i do kno that ancient egyptians called somalia punt which means land of gods, somalis also traded spices with them

Yes, we have already established at least the foundation that the ancient egyptians were "black" people. Now we need to figure out what groups of black people the consisted of. Have you seen DNA tribes analysis of the amarna mummies? It shows that the specific group in this dynasty had greater relations to South Africans, and some of the West.

somalia9: african doesnt mean black

See...'Black' is just a skin color.

Look somalia9...

^^^Those New Papuan people are clearly 'black'...But are the African?

No.

This is why when I talk about subjects like these I refrain from using terms such as 'black'.

Genetically speaking there is no such thing as black. Also you missed my post when I said the Ancient Egyptians were no different from their African neighbors.

lol ancient egytpians are not black typical afrocentric

somalia9...This may give you a heart attack. So I advise you to log off.

[img]http://antropogenez.ru/uploads/tx_antropedia/Nazlet_Khater.jpg[/img]

Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: "Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average." The burial was of a young man of 17-20 years old, whose skeleton lay in a 160cm- long narrow ditch aligned from east to west. A flint tool, which was laid carefully on the bottom of the grave, dates the burial as contemporaneous with a nearby flint quarry. The morphological features of the Nazlet Khater skeleton were analysed by Thoma (1984). The 35,000 year old skeleton was examined using multivariate statistical procedures. In the first part, principal components analysis is performed on a dataset of mandible dimensions of 220 fossils, sub-fossils and modern specimens, ranging in time from the Late Pleistocene to recent and restricted in space to the African continent and Southern Levant. ---Thoma A., Morphology and Affinities of the Nazlet Khater Man; Journal of Human Evolution, vol. 13, 1984

Nazlet Khater falls closer to the Late Palaeolithic Nubian samples . . . If an ancestral descendant relationship existed between Nazlet Khater and the Late Palaeolithic Nubian specimens, then regional continuity persisted among the Upper/Late Pleistocene populations of the Upper Nile region. The Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population which is a descendant of a larger sub-Saharan stock, which extended as far north as present day upper Egypt sometime during the Last Interglacial period, or the early part of the Last Glacial period. In such a scenario, the Nazlet Khater belongs to a relict population which retained some of the morphological features [form & structure] that were present among Middle Stone Age populations, but no longer present in other contemporaneous sub-Saharan and North African populations. ---The Position of the Nazlet Khater Specimen Among Prehistoric and Modern African and Levantine Populations, Ron Pinhasi, Departent of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, U.K., Patrick Semal, Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Belgium; Journal of Human Evolution (2000) vol. 39, 269–288.




^^^What that The oldest remains in Egypt showed 'Negroid' characteristics? The Same Negroids you despise so much!

Somali, you truly believe that ancient egyptians are not black based on what modern day Somalians look like? Understand that not all Somalians have those features you speak of, and also many have been mixed with Arabs so their features greatly resemble them. Look up pictures of North East africans, specifically Somalians from the early 1900's and you will see how "African" they look.

all somalis share same characteristics, we are the same ethnicity,

we are not mixed with arabs as arabs came after us. why do ethiopians look like us even though they are inland and never met arabs?

So you want me to post pictures then? Or are you gonna withdraw that ridiculous statement?

People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

To be honest I don't think I can get offended by what he says. He is willfully ignorant and so the words he says really have no meaning to me. All I can do is try and educate him, and others who may be interested. Anyways I have an exam tomorrow so I need to study. Adios.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

everyone knows a somali when they see one, sure their are ugly ones but classic somali features are well known, 95 percent of somalis have classic somali features as we are a homogenous people with one ethnicity, language and religion.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

KidStranglehold: People shouldn't get angry if somalia9 doesn't want to consider himself black. I mean black is just a social term and many Northeast Africans don't confine themselves to race. So I don't blame him really... But he shouldn't try to speak for all Somalis, because I have seen some Somalis who considered themselves black.

am sure their are somalis who conform to american racial labels but we all know somalis consoder themselves somali first and foremost, and we are unique people in subsaharan africa.

somalia9:


if egyptians were brown....lets say.....do you think they were nigerians, ghanians, or ethiopians/somalis? lmao


Like other Afroasiatic languages, Egyptian uses two grammatical genders, masculine and feminine, similarly to Arabic, Tamasheq and Somali. It also uses three grammatical numbers, contrasting singular, dual, and plural forms, although there is a tendency for the loss of the dual as a productive form in later Egyptian.

They were none. They were and to some extent, ARE EGYPTIANS.

Soliloqyofchaos: Hmm, no you are very wrong Pagan. While I do enjoy viewing pictures as I believe they can create a better understanding; when they are used in the context you just have however, all they accomplish is confusion. I can and will if you really want me to, post pictures of egyptian mummies that had dark/black skin. It is really easy to look it up on google and find them. As I have stated before, there is no doubt that there are brown skinned mummies present, in fact I believe there is an abundance. Remember however that like most other civilizations the incorporation of several different groups of people created their society. I would also not be surprised to find out that the mummy you showed was one in the later dynasties, as earlier you would find them to mostly be dark/black skinned.

Please dont speak to me in circles. Be Precise. why on what basis do you disregard my pictures, which are solid evidence? Are you accusing me of photoshop? that too in such an accurate manner?

Yes please do post. but if you post, be careful not to post pics of mummies whos skins have OXIDIZED to become black. I have been to the British Museum and Ive seen the mummies there. Not ONE of them was Black. All were brown.

This Mummy was from the 18th Dynasty which was quite an old and Early Dynasty from as far as old as 1550 BCE so he was Pure EGYPTIAN no doubt. This was the FIRST Dynasty of the New Kingdom Period.

keep making excuse, while I keep shoving more REAL PHYSICAL evidence down your throat.

Soliloqyofchaos: I said ancient egyptians had ranging skin colors. As far as brown or lighter skinned people I believe they were introduced in the later dynasties from at the time Roman, Turkish peoples etc. Outside of Africa influences basically. Before these outside influences they primarily consisted of dark skinned africans.

DUMBA$$! Turks never even came to Egypt during the later dynasties. Turks never entered Egyp until 1517 A.D., which is barely 500 yrs ago. The only time there was considerable foreign influence during the reign of the Pharaohs, was by the GReeks under Alexander the GReat, who left EGypt and went on further towards Asia for his conquest, leaving a smal Greek garrison led by the GEneral Ptolemy in EGypt. THe Ptolemaics mostly intermarried each other or brought Greeks from GReece. THey were well-known to practice brother-sister marriage. Those were Pagan days and even like tribals like us now, intermixing among other ethnics was not encouraged.

And Cleopatra also had an affair with Mark ANthony and Julius Caesar, both who were people from near her own place and ethnically similar.

you speak like such an amateur. please do your research if you want to get into a decent conversation and argument. stop speaking like a child.

KidStranglehold:

Um...That mummies skin is decayed...And of course the skin color of the Egyptians varied due to mixing with their neighboring Eurasians. And no skins of the mummies are 'preserved'.

And Nubians are the closest related to the Ancient Egyptians beside modern day Egyptians. So no...Berbers are not more related to the Ancient Egyptians than the Nubians.

ANOTHER MUMU! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY MUMMIFICATION WAS DONE?!!! EMBALMING PRESERVES THE SKIN , HAIR, BONES AND OTHER FEATURES!

Definition: A mummy is a human or animal, whose skin and organs have been preserved by either intentional or incidental exposure to chemicals, extreme cold (ice mummies), very low humidity, or lack of air when bodies are submerged in bogs, so that the recovered body will not decay further if kept in cool and dry conditions

THe difference between a mummy and a skeleton:

A skeleton is bare with just bones.
A mummy is better preserved than a skeleton. They still have their skin (however leathery and shriveled up it may be) and sometimes even hair.

Nubians were just neighbours of the Egyptians and shared their beliefs and culture, jsut like the Beja, Abbda,etc.

I have Nubian friends from Nuba/Dangala and I know what I am talking about. They are similar to most Sudanese, except for the language and some customs.

neighbouring Eurasians? Do you have any idea of Geography mister?

KidStranglehold:

Not just that but the Ancient Egyptians conquered many 'non African land', like parts of Levant and the pharaohs married many Asiatic wives for political purpose.

give me links and proof. THe majority of the marriage by Egyptian Pharaohs was to cousins and siblings and to fellow Egyptians. The EGyptian blood is still dominant.

KidStranglehold:

The Ancient Egyptians were Nile Saharans and Afro-Asiatic. Basically of Northeast African stock. Skin color means nothing...

then why do you call them Blacks?

Soliloqyofchaos:

Very true, people who believe ancient egyptians were not black, and provide proof on "non african" peoples do not realize how flawed their arguments are. You cannot claim with few examples of mummies, statues or drawings from the greco roman period that egyptians were not black. That is laughable.

LMFAO! Ive never seen such idiotic comments before!

so are you telling me, Physical evidence such as drawings , Mummies (actual solid bodies of Egyptians, Statues , Physical representations, etc.,) are all a Hoax and false and that a few Racist words and theories by some half-bred MIXED Afro-centric akatas, from a race know for school-dropouts, kidnappings and drug-abuse ,p.ornography and gang wars, can be taken into account?

you must be mad! drawings by EGyptians , mummies, statues from the EGYPTIANS Period is false?! YOU ARE RAVING YOU LIAR!


what about these. This is all false yes fake. done by europeans.

1st pic: Tutankhamun. note the Egyptians have clearly distingushed betwenn the black hair and other ornaments with the light brown skin colour.
2nd pic: war by HH King Pharaoh Ramses II against the Nubians. note the difference in SKIN COLOUR depicted by the EGyptians of themselves and the Nubians. UNLESS YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THE GREATEST ARTISTS OF THE WORLD, THE EGYPTIANS, WERE ALL A BUNCH OF COLOUR-BLIND FOOLS.
3rd pic: Egyptians and Nubians paing homage to the Pharaoh.
4th pic: Racial difference drawn by ANCIENT EGYPTIANS of the 19th DYNASTY.
showing Assyrian, NUBIAN, Berber, EGYPTIAN (obvious through his clothing)

KidStranglehold: somalia9...This may give you a heart attack. So I advise you to log off.

[img]http://antropogenez.ru/uploads/tx_antropedia/Nazlet_Khater.jpg[/img]

Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: "Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average." The burial was of a young man of 17-20 years old, whose skeleton lay in a 160cm- long narrow ditch aligned from east to west. A flint tool, which was laid carefully on the bottom of the grave, dates the burial as contemporaneous with a nearby flint quarry. The morphological features of the Nazlet Khater skeleton were analysed by Thoma (1984). The 35,000 year old skeleton was examined using multivariate statistical procedures. In the first part, principal components analysis is performed on a dataset of mandible dimensions of 220 fossils, sub-fossils and modern specimens, ranging in time from the Late Pleistocene to recent and restricted in space to the African continent and Southern Levant. ---Thoma A., Morphology and Affinities of the Nazlet Khater Man; Journal of Human Evolution, vol. 13, 1984

Nazlet Khater falls closer to the Late Palaeolithic Nubian samples . . . If an ancestral descendant relationship existed between Nazlet Khater and the Late Palaeolithic Nubian specimens, then regional continuity persisted among the Upper/Late Pleistocene populations of the Upper Nile region. The Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population which is a descendant of a larger sub-Saharan stock, which extended as far north as present day upper Egypt sometime during the Last Interglacial period, or the early part of the Last Glacial period. In such a scenario, the Nazlet Khater belongs to a relict population which retained some of the morphological features [form & structure] that were present among Middle Stone Age populations, but no longer present in other contemporaneous sub-Saharan and North African populations. ---The Position of the Nazlet Khater Specimen Among Prehistoric and Modern African and Levantine Populations, Ron Pinhasi, Departent of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, U.K., Patrick Semal, Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Belgium; Journal of Human Evolution (2000) vol. 39, 269–288.




^^^What that The oldest remains in Egypt showed 'Negroid' characteristics? The Same Negroids you despise so much!

HE WAS A NUBIAN, NO EGYPTIAN. so what?

KidStranglehold:

Seriously...It should be freaking obvious right now that the Ancient Egyptians with an indigenous African people. Now would they be considered black if they were alive today? Maybe...Did they carry native African genes? Most certainly yes!

Seriously the Upper Egypt which jump started the Ancient Egyptian civilization were most certainly African.

BEING AFRICAN DOESNT MEAN BLACK. YOU CAN BE BROWN AND YET BE AFRICAN, LIKE THE TOUAREGS, EGYPTIANS, BERBERS,etc.

PAGAN 9JA:


BEING AFRICAN DOESNT MEAN BLACK. YOU CAN BE BROWN AND YET BE AFRICAN, LIKE THE TOUAREGS, EGYPTIANS, BERBERS,etc.

africa is a continent.....a white person can leave america have a child there and there child is considered african.....

somalia9:


africa is a continent.....a white person can leave america have a child there and there child is considered african.....

Exactly. Africa is a Continent. Also Im not Black. I am dark Brown.

If you want BLACK, go to places like South Sudan, Uganda, etc.

i noticed people who use color to refer themselves are white americans who dont know where they came from originally in europe and blacks who decended from slaves and dont know their ethnicity.

Why give up your culture and ethnicity and langauge to be labeled a color you dont even look like?

if you go to europe no one will tell you their white, they say german, french, dutch, swede.........Horn africans like somalis, ethiopians, eritreans refer to their nationality or ethnicity....its only those who came into contact with whites that use the terms black and white...

PAGAN 9JA:


ANOTHER MUMU! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY MUMMIFICATION WAS DONE?!!! EMBALMING PRESERVES THE SKIN , HAIR, BONES AND OTHER FEATURES!

Definition: A mummy is a human or animal, whose skin and organs have been preserved by either intentional or incidental exposure to chemicals, extreme cold (ice mummies), very low humidity, or lack of air when bodies are submerged in bogs, so that the recovered body will not decay further if kept in cool and dry conditions

THe difference between a mummy and a skeleton:

Uh...I know what mummification is...Just because the skin is preserved doesn't mean the skin color was preserved.


^^^Does it look like the skin color was preserved?

PAGAN 9JA:

A skeleton is bare with just bones.
A mummy is better preserved than a skeleton. They still have their skin (however leathery and shriveled up it may be) and sometimes even hair.

No sh*t?

PAGAN 9JA:

Nubians were just neighbours of the Egyptians and shared their beliefs and culture, jsut like the Beja, Abbda,etc.

I have Nubian friends from Nuba/Dangala and I know what I am talking about. They are similar to most Sudanese, except for the language and some customs.

The doesn't change the fact that Nubians are the closet related to the Ancient Egyptians.

__________
Nubians cluster closest to Egyptians.
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/2/1/12/figure/F6?highres=y

Ancient Egyptians & Nubians were the closest related peoples to each other. River Nile civilizations, a river that flows northwards.

Today modern North Sudanese are closest related to Egyptians which is said to correlate with historic close relations between the two who share the longest border.
__________
Quote:
''Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population (Uganda). The similarity of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, potentially bidirectional, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.''
Source (Result; 5th sentence):
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/2/1/12#abs

Quote:
''The patterns of population structure we found in northeast Africa, in particular the similarity of Nubian (a northern Sudanese group that speak Nilo-Saharan languages) and the Egyptian population. is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia, probably resulting in genetic flow between the two regions.''

Stronger evidence points to the relation between Ancient Egypt & Nubia to of occurred before the establishment of those civilizations in the ''late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene'' periods. As opposed to Egyptians & Nubian civilizations conquering each other later.
__________
Quote:
''However, a synthesis of evidence from archaeology, historical linguistics, texts, distribution of haplotypes outside Egypt, and some demographic considerations lends greater support to the establishment, before the Middle Kingdom, of the observed distributions of the most prevalent haplotypes V, XI, and IV. It is suggested that the pattern of diversity for these variants in the Egyptian NILE VALLEY was largely the product of population events that occurred in the late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene through the First Dynasty, and was sustained by continuous smaller-scale bidirectional migrations/interactions. The higher frequency of V in Ethiopia than in Nubia or upper (southern) Egypt has to be taken into account in any discussion of variation in the NILE VALLEY.''
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16136533


Quote:
''Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.''
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090902

PAGAN 9JA:

neighbouring Eurasians? Do you have any idea of Geography mister?

Do you have any idea that Southwest Asia(Eurasia) is right freaking next door to Egypt?

somalia9: i noticed people who use color to refer themselves are white americans who dont know where they came from originally in europe and blacks who decended from slaves and dont know their ethnicity.

Why give up your culture and ethnicity and langauge to be labeled a color you dont even look like?

if you go to europe no one will tell you their white, they say german, french, dutch, swede.........Horn africans like somalis, ethiopians, eritreans refer to their nationality or ethnicity....its only those who came into contact with whites that use the terms black and white...

Exactly Bro. You might be a troll for fun. But your rationality is truly amazing. you are a good counter-weight for those akatas here.

Those bloody americans. they only know WHITE, YELLOW and BLACK.

the americans and akatas, both lost their original ethnicities and tribes. so they are trying to label the whole world as mixed and try to resort to skin colour which is their last hope.

PAGAN 9JA:


give me links and proof. THe majority of the marriage by Egyptian Pharaohs was to cousins and siblings and to fellow Egyptians. The EGyptian blood is still dominant.

What the heck are you talking about? It is evident that when Ancient Egypt conquered Asiatic land they married the asiatic women. I know Egyptian blood is still mostly dominant in Upper Egypt, but they are still admixed compared to the original Egyptians.

PAGAN 9JA:



HE WAS A NUBIAN, NO EGYPTIAN. so what?

What the hell are you talking Nubians didn't even exist black then and so didn't the Egyptians.

PAGAN 9JA:


BEING AFRICAN DOESNT MEAN BLACK. YOU CAN BE BROWN AND YET BE AFRICAN, LIKE THE TOUAREGS, EGYPTIANS, BERBERS,etc.

Stop projecting things onto me! When I clearly said using terms such as black on these subjects are flawed...I am speaking GENETICALLY. Your argument is so idiotic, your using skin color as an argument, while I am using genetics. Berbers are NOT a monolithic group and some Tuaregs look like this.
[img]http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.2112113.1328998941!image/2765604315.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/2765604315.jpg[/img]

Skin color doesn't mean nothing, since the ancient Egyptians were no different from other Africans.

PAGAN 9JA:


Exactly Bro. You might be a troll for fun. But your rationality is truly amazing. you are a good counter-weight for those akatas here.

Those bloody americans. they only know WHITE, YELLOW and BLACK.

the americans and akatas, both lost their original ethnicities and tribes. so they are trying to label the whole world as mixed and try to resort to skin colour which is their last hope.

you should see how people label themselves in brazil.....its very interesting.......also people in the us refer to asians as if they are a race, which doesnt make sense


when i check an application in america for a job, i fill out other, if it says black/african decent then i check that......but race is in america is just political and not scientific.


also i noticed those who refer to themselves as black are normally west african/central/south africans.....those in the horn and north africa use their ethnicity.

i have a friend whose oromo and he doesnt even call himself ethiopian......and some people get confused what oromo is...luckily somali is an ethnicity and a nationality and a language.