Jesus And God - Religion - Nairaland
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| Jesus And God by cleanvessel(m): 9:42am On Feb 10, 2013 |
John 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father (God) also: and from henceforth ye know him (Jesus) and have seen him (Jesus). Philip said unto him, Lord, shew us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, (as the Father) Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 10:30 I and my Father are ONE (the same Being, inseparable). I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (Jesus) justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory (Jesus ascension to heaven). The person of Jesus is a mystery beyond physical and sensory understanding. ANY REVELATIONS OR ANGEL THAT DENY THE TRUE BEING OF JESUS IS NOT FROM GOD. NOTE: The words in brackets are the thread writter's comment. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 10:46am On Feb 10, 2013 |
cleanvessel: john 14:20- you will see as Jesus is in the Father, the disciples are in him and he in them. does that makes them deities too? |
| Re: Jesus And God by cleanvessel(m): 1:50pm On Feb 10, 2013 |
F00028: No. Jesus said He and His Father are one. How? He (Jesus) alone knows. This is the mystery (I Timothy 3:16). We know Jesus does not tell lies. His name is the Truth and He is faultless (John 14:6, Quran 19:19). |
| Re: Jesus And God by cleanvessel(m): 1:50pm On Feb 10, 2013 |
F00028: |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 2:58pm On Feb 10, 2013 |
cleanvessel: if its a mystery why do you quote it? you dont know what it really means  if I say "one" means they are one in purpose and not in essence, how are you gonna prove I am not correct? |
| Re: Jesus And God by cleanvessel(m): 5:27pm On Feb 10, 2013 |
F00028: Belief is a matter of faith. Spiritual things often times cannot be proved as no physical evidence might be available. Muhammad claimed he received revelations from Allah's angel, Gabriel and you believe it. How do you prove this was so? |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 9:50pm On Feb 10, 2013 |
cleanvessel:I am not asking for physical evidence. I am asking you if Jesus said they are "one", then what does it mean exactly? because from where I stand certain verses e.g mat. 19:16, john 20:17, 8:28, 14:28 would seem to preclude certain interpretations. cleanvessel:because 1,400 years ago a man who couldn't read or write brings forth a book revealing things about this world that only its Creator could know. what else could it be? |
| Re: Jesus And God by cleanvessel(m): 4:49pm On Feb 11, 2013 |
F00028: What is said in the Quran about this world that only the Creator could know? I put it to you that Satan also knows everything about this world because he is here. He also knows so much about heaven because he was from there. About a man you said could not read, why should he be forced to read? Did Allah not know he could not read before he almost killed him for his inability to read? Is that not injustice on Allah's part. What type of god is Allah who punished the innocent illiterate man for not being able to read? Was he afterwards able to read after the torture? Besides, what was the illiterate man commanded to read? Gabriel was meeting him for the first time and did not come with any written document. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 7:34pm On Feb 11, 2013 |
you digress. you started this thread about the divinity of Jesus but in three short posts you have changed the topic. what distinctly makes Jesus God? for example did he say, unambiguously, he was God? because the Almighty God is not shy to proclaim it e.g Isaiah 42:10. eze. 34:31. cleanvessel:-Well for one thing, the Qur'an stated our world was spherical when for centuries your Bible has been saying it was flat, has four corners and is standing on pillars -the Quran in the 7th century stated the universe is expanding. that was something scientist only “discovered” in the 20th century after the invention of the hubble. cleanvessel:that’s because Gabriel wasn’t asking him read a document. he was asking him to “recite”. the word is “Iqra" it means read or recite. |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 8:23pm On Feb 11, 2013 |
F00028: you digress. you started this thread about the divinity of Jesus but in three short posts you have changed the topic. Are you saying Satan does not know science? Can you quote where the Bible talks about the world being flat, has four corners and standing on pillars? If the scientist discovered something different from what God said, it means He had changed the form He created it. There are a lot of things that have changed from the form they were created including climate change. Even man has changed. Some 40 years ago and earlier, when a child was born, he/she would not open his/her eyes until after 7 days. Now new-babies open their eyes immediately. Things are changing from their original creation. Quran 96:1-5 talks about 'read' and 'pen'. So it is talking about reading and not reciting. You write with pen for reading and not for reciting. Iqra here means reading, not reciting. Lie cannot be turned to truth. Quran 96:4 Who (Allah) teacheth by pen. Did Allah succeed teaching Muhammad reading and writing by pen? Did he become literate? Lies. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 10:36pm On Feb 11, 2013 |
pointblank 321: does he?  pointblank 321: Can you quote where the Bible talks about the world being flat, has four corners and standing on pillars? 1 Samuel 2:8 -PILLARS Isaiah 11:12 -FOUR CORNERS Daniel 4:10-11- FLAT EARTH pointblank 321: If the scientist discovered something different from what God said, it means He had changed the form He created it...really, now?  pointblank 321: Quran 96:1-5 talks about 'read' and 'pen'. So it is talking about reading and not reciting. You write with pen for reading and not for reciting....as your friend has already admitted, Gabriel did not bring along any document for him to read .... and Qur'an 96:1-5 never said, "read what your Lord has written" |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 8:56am On Feb 12, 2013 |
F00028: |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 8:56am On Feb 12, 2013 |
F00028: I want to inform you that satan as an arch-spirit knows science more than any scientist. Yes. God has changed the form and nature of many things He created and will possibly continue to do. I also want to confirm to you that Gabriel commanded Muhammad to read and not to recite. Recitation is 'repeat after me'. Could Muhammad not repeat (recite) what was said to him in his own language at age 40? Why should he allow himself to be tortured as many as three times if it was only to recite, which he could do easily? When he was almost dead in torture, he asked ''what can I read''. Gabriel (satan in disguise) was not representing Allah. He was the Allah himself and that was why Allah did not speak even a word in the whole of the Quran. Gabriel impersonated the name Allah, which the Arabs believed to be the true God. Muhammad is to be pitied. He had no choice but obey Gabriel otherwise he would be killed. Along the line he believed it was the true God that appointed him as His prophet. Was it for nothing that Kaaba, the centre for satan worship (idol worship) was chosen as Allah's holy centre where his faithfuls should face to reach him? Don't you reason that it was a manipulation by Allah to continue the worship of him (satan)? Why would the true God choose a spiritually polluted place, Kaaba, the centre for worship of various idols as His holy Temple? Never. Practically speaking, the way the islam faithfuls worship their Allah in Kaaba, Mecca is the same as other idol worshipers do. With their heads cleanly shaven, they tie round themselves white clothes in the exact manner the other idol worshipers do to worship their gods. No doubt islam is satan worship. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 1:29pm On Feb 12, 2013 |
pointblank 321:how do you know? doesn't the God you believe in know any science? how can the Bible, if it is his book, be full of scientific absurdites? pointblank 321: Yes. God has changed the form and nature of many things He created and will possibly continue to do.proof? pointblank 321: I also want to confirm to you that Gabriel commanded Muhammad to read and not to recite. what document did Gabriel bring for him to read? pointblank 321: Recitation is 'repeat after me'...?dont make me laugh! "recite" and "repeat after me" do not mean the same thing  pointblank 321: Why should he allow himself to be tortured as many as three times if it was only to recite, which he could do easily? he wasn't a reciter. that was his reply. pointblank 321: Gabriel (satan in disguise)...how can you tell the difference? and if that is true why would the Qur'an exhort Muslims to seek refuge in God from the devil even before reciting it ? |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 5:46pm On Feb 12, 2013 |
F00028: You ran away from answering some of the paragraphs. Why? It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that Allah or Gabriel was an evil spirit: Firstly,there were many people including a young lady, Mary who had contact with God's true angel Gabriel and there was no report of torture. God's angels don't torture people to bring good tidings. Secondly, the messages brought by Gabriel were inconsitent with the ones before them and there was no confirmation by his sender. He alone spoke throughout the quran. Thirdly, God's true prophets hear His voice, even the young Samuel. Muhammad was the only prophet who did not hear the voice of he who appointed him as a prophet in muslims' Book. On reading or reciting, if it was not 'say after me', what was Muhammad commanded to recite? Gabriel was meeting him for the first time, no prior revelation or discussion, recite what? Gabriel was a liar whether it was recite or read. But we know it was 'read' as pen was mentioned. It has to do with writing and reading. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 8:49pm On Feb 12, 2013 |
pointblank 321:  huh? well, why dont you refute the ones I did?pointblank 321: how are you sure she met "true angel Gabriel" and not the one you called "satan in disguise"? pointblank 321:lets stop here first: 1. give me an example, and 2. what kind of confirmation are you talking about? |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 8:51am On Feb 13, 2013 |
@F000028 Again, you dodged refuting paragraphs 5 and 6 above. So they stay valid. Keep dodging, the readers are watching. Do I still need to prove that the messages of demon Gabriel to Muhammad were inconsistent with the Bible? Are they not direct opposite? Gabriel that appeared to Mary was not the one that appeared to Muhammad. Mary was not tortured, Muhammad was. Other people who had contact with the God's true Gabriel were not tortured. Are the two Gabriel the same? It is the Devil that torture innocent people. I said all these earlier but you pretended as if you didn't see them. God's Gabriel that appeared to Mary said she was going to have a son who shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). Allah's Gabriel that appeared to Muhammad said Allah does not have a son. Are they the same Gabriel? The message of salvation of man is so important to God. Hundreds of years, the birth of Jesus had been prophesied. God's Gabriel told Mary she was going to have a son who shall be called Son of God (Lk 1:35). God Himself confirmed the message He sent earlier through Gabriel (Matthew 3:16-17). Who confirmed Allah's Gabriel message moreso that it was different from the one on ground? Muhammad's Gabriel represented nobody, he was on his own as there was no confirmation from his sender. What qualifies a person as a prophet is his ability to hear from God. Was Muhammad a prophet? Why didn't he hear directly from God like other prophets? I would not expect you to raise questions already answered but you can jump or dodge any one you have no refutal because it is the truth, |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 1:33pm On Feb 13, 2013 |
pointblank 321: @F000028 you see that's your problem right there: you are not after truth, you are just playing to gallery...nl xtians do that a lot have you addressed these?: -what distinctly makes Jesus God? for example did he say, unambiguously, he was God? because the Almighty God is not shy to proclaim it e.g Isaiah 42:10. eze. 34:31 -and if that is true why would the Qur'an exhort Muslims to seek refuge in God from the devil even before reciting it ? pointblank 321: blah, blah, blah F00028: pointblank 321: so that's your proof that 2000 years ago a young Jewish Girl called Mary actually met a "true angel", was not tortured and afterwords was found with child? a book that you dont know for certain who wrote? and the author tells you plainly he was not inspired by God. he wrote because he saw everyone else was writing. and you think Mathew (another anonymous book) is supposed to be confirmation for Luke? are you for real? pointblank 321: exactly! the Almighty God does not need a son. HE does not need to come together with one of his creation just to produce another human being. HE does not beget, and was not begotten. |
| Re: Jesus And God by enilove(m): 2:14pm On Feb 13, 2013 |
The fact is that Muhammed was not sure of whether it was Angel Gebreil that gave him the quran or not. Sura 2:97 " Say ( O Muhammed ,to mankind) who is an enemy of Gabriel! for he it is who hath revealed ( this scripture ) to thy heart by Allah 's leave,confirming that which was reavead before it,and a guidance and glad tidings to believers". Sura 16:102 " Say :The holy spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confurm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered to Allah. What I want you to realise is that it was Holy spirit Gabriel that gave muhammed the revelation of the quran. So the Holy spirit Angel Gabriel was not the same Angel Gebriel that appered to Mary. So you are invariably correct. |
| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 2:29pm On Feb 13, 2013 |
F00028: Allah (Satan) that demon Gabriel introduced does not have a son. But the true God has a Son and other children including me. I know it is not easy to get out of satan's prison. Go to the Muslims' section and defend all the lies of Allah paragraph by paragraph in the thread titled 'The Book From Satan'. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus And God by DevotedOne(m): 5:30pm On Feb 13, 2013 |
In The Name of The One and Only God, The Eternal, The Righteous, The Owner Of Sovereignty, The Lord Of Majesty And Bounty, The Self-Sufficient, The Supreme, The Self-Subsisting In Whom All Subsist. The Peace Be Upon You, Everyone. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. This is an indication that Prophet/Messiah Isa [Jesus, PBUH] is in the Grace and Purity of Allaah (SWT). Additionally, Allaah (SWT), speaks through His Prophets; as 'they speak not before He (SWT), speaks'. John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." These verses do not declare that Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH] is Allaah (SWT). How do you account for the fact that Jesus ate food. When does Allaah (SWT), need food or drink? "I shall turn away from my signs those who are arrogant in the earth unjustifiably, and if they see all the signs (in creation) they believe them not, and if they see the path of righteousness they do not take it as (their) path, and if they see the path of misguidance they take it as (their) path. That is because they deny our signs and are used to disregarding them" The Noble Qur’an, Al-Aaraf(7):146. Wa salaam. DevotedOne |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 5:36pm On Feb 13, 2013 |
 I see you have run out of argumentspointblank 321: if that's true, then Jesus was calling on a false god on the cross because the Aramaic word for God is "Alah" according to the lexicon offered at peshitta image: W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr., Vine's Complete Exposition Dictionary , Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN, 1996 [/quote]
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| Re: Jesus And God by pointblank321: 10:24am On Feb 14, 2013 |
@F00028 All your questions require the same answers which I have given severally. I can't keep repeating the same thing over and over again. The Bible says Jesus cried to Eli (Matthew 27:46), not Alah. |
| Re: Jesus And God by TeenageMoney(m): 12:30pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
Problem with Christians is that they read the Bible like Novels... |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 7:04pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
pointblank 321: @F00028 "Eli" is Hebrew. according to your scholars Jesus spoke Aramaic: Alah, Alaha |
| Re: Jesus And God by truthman2012(m): 10:18pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
F00028: That was the scholar's opinion. Not the Bible. Jesus cried 'Eli' not Alah or Alaha. |
| Re: Jesus And God by truthman2012(m): 10:22pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
Teenage Money: Problem with Christians is that they read the Bible like Novels... How do you read your quran? Anyway you are a teenager. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 11:22pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
truthman2012: that's the second hand information of whoever wrote the particular gospel you are reading because he wasnt there either. |
| Re: Jesus And God by truthman2012(m): 11:49pm On Feb 14, 2013 |
F00028: Those who wrote the Gospel, which your quran talks about severally are the disciples of Jesus. They were eye-witnesses to Jesus (Matthew 10:1-5). This Gospel your quran recorgnises as authentic (Quran 5:47). Where do you get your own theory? |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 9:13am On Feb 15, 2013 |
truthman2012: really? were Luke and Mark disciples?? Christendom doesn't know for sure who wrote the Gospels! do you not read your history? besides, I was referring to the alleged crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the disciples weren't there because they all fled! (Mathew 26:56) truthman2012:the Qur'an only recognises the "gospel of Jesus"- which by the way was never preserved in its pristine form! it doesn't recognise the gospel according to Mark, Luke, or John. |
| Re: Jesus And God by truthman2012(m): 11:29am On Feb 15, 2013 |
@F00028 You lack the knowledge of the Bible and cannot see the truth because your mind is made up. If Luke and Mark were not among the first twelve disciples, Matthew and John were. Do you believe their witnesses? Fistly, who wrote the Gospel (with proof) which your quran accepts as authentic and where can it be found. The Gospel according to Mark, Luke and John, (you forgot to mention Matthew), which you said are not recorgnised had been on ground before Muhammad. Who said they were not recorgnised because your quran does not say so. Your claim is not quranic, it is your own invention. You have deviated from the ongoing discussion by mentioning the fleeing of the disciples. It happened only when Jesus was being tried before cruxifixion. You failed to see Peter following him afar off and going in (Matthew 26:58). Besides, the cruxifixion of Jesus was in the public. Governor Pilate had no choice but approved the will of the people to crucify Him (Matthew 27). Yet your quran says something that happened in the public was not true. The witnesses of many people. Satan does not want people to believe in the only source of salvation. |
| Re: Jesus And God by F00028: 2:38pm On Feb 15, 2013 |
truthman2012: @F00028 where was your knowledge of the bible when you were generalising? truthman2012: the Quran speaks of the injeel (translated, gospel) of Jesus Christ. this is specifically the revelation God gave to Jesus. now that revelation has not been preserved in its pristine form. Jesus Christ never wrote down anything neither did he ask anyone to write, and while he was around nothing was written down! truthman2012: the Quran never mentions any gospel according to mathew, mark, luke or john and let me ask you, when Jesus was going here and there preaching the gospel was it mathew, mark, luke and john he was preaching? truthman2012:the Quran never said no crucifixion took place only that Jesus Christ was not crucified or killed any other way. and who told you that was the only source of salvation ? certainly not Jesus Christ. |
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