Lb, i don taya...

musKeeto: Lb, i don taya...

I am tired myself but I want this to go on to record breaking lengths.

This will show the brainwashing and stubborn characteristics of faith. Some christians will be heartbroken by Ihedinobis stubbornness to the cold hard reality of logic.

"Just like the movie Prometheus where the main character realises that she was created by aliens and yet still believed in Yahweh-the christian creator God."


The stubbornness of faith!

Logicboy03:


You are becoming more and more ridiculous. Muskeeto and Wiegraff have explained it and have seen that you are being willfully ignorant. So now, three of us are just lying or talking nonsense about omnipotence and freewill?

This is embarassing. I am sure that christians watching you on the sidelines are quite ashamed. This is good

Haven't I already told you that this constant appeal to 'the audience' and majority does not help your effort to look smart? It, in fact, hampers it.

Just to help you out of your ignorance, I will explain the problem with your analogy;






You ask to know wrote the script. That is a strawman right there. There is no need for it to be written from the omnipotent being's view. The script is already in known in the omnipotent beings foreknowledge. Writing it out or acting it out makes no difference- you cant deviate from the beings mind.

Hmm. So the omniscient's knowledge of the future directly resulting in a predetermined future independent of our choosing does not amount to writing a script for us to act out? Is that what you mean by saying the script part is a strawman?

Yet again, you reiterate that we don't really have a choice because the omniscient creator knows the future. I'm still missing the how and the why.

Imagine someone is going to make an exact movie out of a sad day in your life and the director needs you to narrate the story to them to write the script to the exact way you experienced the sad day.

Now the movie comes out exactly as you have narrated it. Does your knowledge of the experience not control the script and the actions of the characters in the movie?

Does the knowledge of the omnipotent being not control the script of life and the actions? His knowledge of the script comes before the script is in action.

So, just like you have been saying all along, the omniscient simply wrote a script and produced actors to play it. You're not now asserting that omniscience voids free will but that the omniscient deliberately produces a creation without power of choice. And this is your 'explanation' for how omniscience voids free will? Ok, you have been heard.

I am waiting for you to lie your way out of this one

So I have been lying all this time. And you are scared I'll send an assassin after you if you called me out.

musKeeto: Lb, i don taya...

Yeah I feel you, I know how a favorite team's poor showing at a game fatigues a fan.

Ihedinobi:

Haven't I already told you that this constant appeal to 'the audience' and majority does not help your effort to look smart? It, in fact, hampers it.



Hmm. So the omniscient's knowledge of the future directly resulting in a predetermined future independent of our choosing does not amount to writing a script for us to act out? Is that what you mean by saying the script part is a strawman?

Yet again, you reiterate that we don't really have a choice because the omniscient creator knows the future. I'm still missing the how and the why.



So, just like you have been saying all along, the omniscient simply wrote a script and produced actors to play it. You're not now asserting that omniscience voids free will but that the omniscient deliberately produces a creation without power of choice. And this is your 'explanation' for how omniscience voids free will? Ok, you have been heard.




So I have been lying all this time. And you are scared I'll send an assassin after you if you called me out.

Keep this up. We will soon enter 5 pages of denial




omniscience and freewill can not exist. If God knows you will eat chocolate icream on 01/01/2020, you will eat that ice cream whether you are given a choice of vanilla or strawberry. You cant make a choice...you only follow a path

Ihedinobi:

Yeah I feel you, I know how a favorite team's poor showing at a game fatigues a fan.

Majaze
Logicboy03
Muskeeto
-and modern philosophy on religion

Are all wrong on the contradiction/impossiblity of omniscience and freewill existing together, according to Ihedinobi.


I guess Muskeeto is on the losing team



Let's reach page 5

Logicboy03:



Keep this up. We will soon enter 5 pages of denial

Empty.

omniscience and freewill can not exist.

Why?

If God knows you will eat chocolate icream on 01/01/2020, you will eat that ice cream whether you are given a choice of vanilla or strawberry. You cant make a choice...you only follow a path

Why can't I make a choice? How does God's omniscience prevent me from making a choice?

Logicboy03:


Majaze
Logicboy03
Muskeeto
-and modern philosophy on religion

Are all wrong on the contradiction/impossiblity of omniscience and freewill existing together, according to Ihedinobi.


I guess Muskeeto is on the losing team



Let's reach page 5

Still appealing to the majority? I can do that too, you know, what with InesQor, Mr Anony, Deep Sight, Davidylan and correct philosophy on religion smacking you guys upside your heads.

By the way, who's 'modern philosophy on religion'? Don't believe I've met the guy.

I haven't really been following this thread much but I see no reason why freewill and omniscient cannot coexist .. @logicboy any particular reason why you hold that view ?

Ihedinobi:

Empty.



Why?



Why can't I make a choice? How does God's omniscience prevent me from making a choice?



Still appealing to the majority? I can do that too, you know, what with InesQor, Mr Anony, Deep Sight, Davidylan and correct philosophy on religion smacking you guys upside your heads.

By the way, who's 'modern philosophy on religion'? Don't believe I've met the guy.

LMAO..... the denial.

Deepsight ran away from such position. You only have Inseqr who tried to deny, then ran away. Even Anony has abandoned you.


I am not appealing to authority...I am stating a philosophical problem that has been analysed and withstood the attacks from theology. The never ending contradicition with the problem of freewill and omniscience.



You are a dubious guy

greatgenius: I haven't really been following this thread much but I see no reason why freewill and omniscient cannot coexist .. @logicboy any particular reason why you hold that view ?

God knows everything- God is omniscient
God knows everything- God knows the future
God knows that tommorrow Mr, A will eat chocolate ice-cream from an ice cream vendor

Analysing what then happens the next day;

-Mr A goes to the ice-cream vendor ponders what flavour to eat bewteen vanilla, lemon and chocolate. He buys chocolate ice-cream
a) MR A. could not have chosen vanilla flavour because God would have been wrong and therefore God didnt know the future and therefore God is no longer omniscient
b) MR A. actually did not "choose" chocolate flavour. His choice was an illusion. All he did was follow God's foreseen path. Mr A had no freewill in deciding his ice-cream. Choice doesnt exist where there is no alternative

Logicboy03:



LMAO..... the denial.

Deepsight ran away from such position. You only have Inseqr who tried to deny, then ran away. Even Anony has abandoned you.


I am not appealing to authority...I am stating a philosophical problem that has been analysed and withstood the attacks from theology. The never ending contradicition with the problem of freewill and omniscience.



You are a dubious guy

Empty as ever. By the way, where are mazaje and, well, muskeeto? People leave off commenting and logicboy decrees that they have run away. Abeg, get over yourself. You think everyone lives on interaction with you?

Logicboy03:


God knows everything- God is omniscient
God knows everything- God knows the future
God knows that tommorrow Mr, A will eat chocolate ice-cream from an ice cream vendor

Analysing what then happens the next day;

-Mr A goes to the ice-cream vendor ponders what flavour to eat bewteen vanilla, lemon and chocolate. He buys chocolate ice-cream
a) MR A. could not have chosen vanilla flavour because God would have been wrong and therefore God didnt know the future and therefore God is no longer omniscient
b) MR A. actually did not "choose" chocolate flavour. His choice was an illusion. All he did was follow God's foreseen path. Mr A had no freewill in deciding his ice-cream. Choice doesnt exist where there is no alternative

Circular argument.

Ihedinobi:

Circular argument.

Circular argument? Is this guy trolling,

Logicboy03:




Circular argument? Is this guy trolling,

I know you're dense and all, but I really have explained this very simply.

Logicboy03:


God knows everything- God is omniscient
God knows everything- God knows the future
God knows that tommorrow Mr, A will eat chocolate ice-cream from an ice cream vendor

Analysing what then happens the next day;

-Mr A goes to the ice-cream vendor ponders what flavour to eat bewteen vanilla, lemon and chocolate. He buys chocolate ice-cream
a) MR A. could not have chosen vanilla flavour because God would have been wrong and therefore God didnt know the future and therefore God is no longer omniscient
b) MR A. actually did not "choose" chocolate flavour. His choice was an illusion. All he did was follow God's foreseen path. Mr A had no freewill in deciding his ice-cream. Choice doesnt exist where there is no alternative

oh ok I see your point but I'm afraid it is flawed due to lack of understanding of the very thing you set out to disprove.. God being omniscient in no way equal to you having no freedom to choose and act as you wish..

If choice does not exist where there is no alternative then your argument will stand true if that was the case .. Fortunately that is not the case.. The truth is there are other alternate choices.. in fact there is an infinite amount of choices.


Now one of the problems with your argument is that you are equating omniscient with prediction... You are assuming because God knows everything he is thus going to predict your future.. I am afraid that's is not the truth.. if God was in the business of predicting your future then where will the concept of free will stand?.

Ok let's try this with a series of statements and then questions so hopefully you will be able to understand how the concept of an omniscient creator violates not the concept of free will..

First you have understand that anything that everything that has happened, will happen and is already happening.. every possibility exist as facts. As completed event. There is nothing new understand the sun..

I am going to put this in terms to which you can better relate. See if this helps. Have you ever watched children use a CD-ROM to play a computerized video game? If you have, have you ever asked yourself how the computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes with the joystick?( any parent not computer or technology savy have probably wondered about this ) .. everything is all on the disc. The computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes because every possible move has already been placed on the disc, along with its appropriate response..

Now if you would see God as the Cd- ROM.. He knows everything because all the outcomes, beginning and endings already exist as infinite possibilities.. however, how and what you choose is up to you.. your free will is not violated either way..

Ignore the typos. On cell phone. I actually like this topic. Will get home soon and will add some more stuff

Logicboy03:


God knows everything- God is omniscient
God knows everything- God knows the future
God knows that tommorrow Mr, A will eat chocolate ice-cream from an ice cream vendor

Analysing what then happens the next day;

-Mr A goes to the ice-cream vendor ponders what flavour to eat bewteen vanilla, lemon and chocolate. He buys chocolate ice-cream
a) MR A. could not have chosen vanilla flavour because God would have been wrong and therefore God didnt know the future and therefore God is no longer omniscient
b) MR A. actually did not "choose" chocolate flavour. His choice was an illusion. All he did was follow God's foreseen path. Mr A had no freewill in deciding his ice-cream. Choice doesnt exist where there is no alternative

This makes no sense. If as you say, God is omniscient... that means he transcends time and space. How then is it impossible that God already knows what choices Mr. A was going to make well before he did?

Look at it this way - i've watched a movie 20 times and already know how it ended... does that mean the movie director had no freewill in designing the ending of his choice?

greatgenius: oh ok I see your point but I'm afraid it is flawed due to lack of understanding of the very thing you set out to disprove.. God being omniscient in no way equal to you having no freedom to choose and act as you wish..

If choice does not exist where there is no alternative then your argument will stand true if that was the case .. Fortunately that is not the case.. The truth is there are other alternate choices.. in fact there is an infinite amount of choices.


Now one of the problems with your argument is that you are equating omniscient with prediction... You are assuming because God knows everything he is thus going to predict your future.. I am afraid that's is not the truth.. if God was in the business of predicting your future then where will the concept of free will stand?.

Ok let's try this with a series of statements and then questions so hopefully you will be able to understand how the concept of an omniscient creator violates not the concept of free will..

First you have understand that anything that everything that has happened, will happen and is already happening.. every possibility exist as facts. As completed event. There is nothing new understand the sun..

I am going to put this in terms to which you can better relate. See if this helps. Have you ever watched children use a CD-ROM to play a computerized video game? If you have, have you ever asked yourself how the computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes with the joystick?( any parent not computer or technology savy have probably wondered about this ) .. everything is all on the disc. The computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes because every possible move has already been placed on the disc, along with its appropriate response..

Now if you would see God as the Cd- ROM.. He knows everything because all the outcomes, beginning and endings already exist as infinite possibilities.. however, how and what you choose is up to you.. your free will is not violated either way..

1) There is no infinite choice. Your life is finite and God knows all the paths you will take and the ones you wont
2) Regarding the CD-Rom analogy, The CPU knows all the possible finite choices but doesnt know which one you will take- it is your choice that can get you to the end of the game
3) God is much more than the CPU because he also knows the "choice" you will make. Unfortunately, your choice is an illusion because you cant deviate from the omniscient beings knowledge

davidylan:

This makes no sense. If as you say, God is omniscient... that means he transcends time and space. How then is it impossible that God already knows what choices Mr. A was going to make well before he did?

Look at it this way - i've watched a movie 20 times and already know how it ended... does that mean the movie director had no freewill in designing the ending of his choice?

1) Dumbass, are you omniscient? Your movie analogy is deficient.


Do you know the meaning of omniscient? Knows everything- how you die, what you will eat etc

Logicboy03:

1) There is no infinite choice. Your life is finite and God knows all the paths you will take and the ones you wont

lol do you really believe there are no infinite choices? btw God knowing all the paths and the ones you wont does not mean that you have no choices or that she is choosing it for you..you are playing out a script and in this script you have the choice to be, do and create anything you wish..you could say you are the very script..

2) Regarding the CD-Rom analogy, The CPU knows all the possible finite choices but doesn't know which one you will take- it is your choice that can get you to the end of the game

well in our case God knows the possible infinite choices and knows which one you will take..why because he/she/it is you and also all things.. the CD-ROM analogy wasnt to demonstrate God's infinite or finite ability. i sought to show you that in many ways, life/the universe is like a CD-ROM.(except the universe is infinite)..like the CD-ROM the choices and it corresponding natural consequences/effects already exist as infinite possibilities.. All the possibilities exist and have already occurred. And you get to choose which one to experience. that is your free will..

3) God is much more than the CPU because he also knows the "choice" you will make. Unfortunately, your choice is an illusion because you cant deviate from the omniscient beings knowledge

Again yes he is much more than the CPU or the CD-ROM.. He is also the creator of the CD-Rom/life.. and as the creator he knows all the possible beginnings and endings. again why? well because he is the damn creator..

at bolded that is if his knowledge was finite..understand that the omniscient knowledge is not finite but infinite..but i also understand what but if you meant your choice being an illusion because of the threat of retribution or punishment for deviating from laid down commands then yes.. but the truth is there is no such thing as punishment or retribution..

greatgenius:
lol do you really believe there are no infinite choices? btw God knowing all the paths and the ones you wont does not mean that you have no choices or that she is choosing it for you..you are playing out a script and in this script you have the choice to be, do and create anything you wish..you could say you are the very script..

well in our case God knows the possible infinite choices and knows which one you will take..why because he/she/it is you and also all things.. the CD-ROM analogy wasnt to demonstrate God's infinite or finite ability. i sought to show you that in many ways, life/the universe is like a CD-ROM.(except the universe is infinite)..like the CD-ROM the choices and it corresponding natural consequences/effects already exist as infinite possibilities.. All the possibilities exist and have already occurred. And you get to choose which one to experience. that is your free will..

Again yes he is much more than the CPU or the CD-ROM.. He is also the creator of the CD-Rom/life.. and as the creator he knows all the possible beginnings and endings. again why? well because he is the damn creator..

at bolded that is if his knowledge was finite..understand that the omniscient knowledge is not finite but infinite..but i also understand what but if you meant your choice being an illusion because of the threat of retribution or punishment for deviating from laid down commands then yes.. but the truth is there is no such thing as punishment or retribution..

Yes, an omniscient beings knowledge could be infinite but it makes no difference. We are finite beings on a finite planet- knowing the future means that everything is predetermined. You wouldnt know the future fore certain if the future isnt set in stone. There are no choices with omniscience

Logicboy03:


1) Dumbass, are you omniscient? Your movie analogy is deficient.


Do you know the meaning of omniscient? Knows everything- how you die, what you will eat etc

this response is amusing to me. You seem to be quarreling with yourself or something.
The movie analogy is pretty simple... since we are bound in time and space but God isnt... our lives are pretty much like a movie reel to him that He has watched several times over that He knows how things begin and end.

davidylan:

this response is amusing to me. You seem to be quarreling with yourself or something.

Wow, so even denying basic grammar?

lmao.


Craze

Logicboy03:


Wow, so even denying basic grammar?

lmao.


Craze

what was this meant to convey?

davidylan:

what was this meant to convey?

Never mind.



So you too are taking Ihedinobi's denial route?


Do you think there is a problem with freewill and omnipotence?

Logicboy03:






Yes, an omniscient beings knowledge could be infinite but it makes no difference. We are finite beings on a finite planet- knowing the future means that everything is predetermined. You wouldnt know the future fore certain if the future isnt set in stone. There are no choices with omniscience

well i will say everything is predetermined infinitely..firstly you have to know that time does not exist..the past and future really does not exist. everything is happening NOW..BUT since you live in the illusion of time lets go with the flow..

Your future is not set in stone.. that is not true. if this was true so called psychics and fortune tellers will be right 100 percent all the time..your past creates your present and your present will create your probable future.. but you are at liberty to change your probable future at any time..

God being omniscience has nothing do with your choices..He is not predicting your future.

greatgenius: well i will say everything is predetermined infinitely..firstly you have to know that time does not exist..the past and future really does not exist. everything is happening NOW..BUT since you live in the illusion of time lets go with the flow..

Your future is not set in stone.. that is not true. if this was true so called psychics and fortune tellers will be right 100 percent all the time..your past creates your present and your present will create your probable future.. but you are at liberty to change your probable future at any time..

Good. If the future is not set in stone, your omniscient God does not exist

Logicboy03:
Good. If the future is not set in stone, your omniscient God does not exist

i said YOUR future is not set in stone.. BTW how did you get to that conclusion

greatgenius: i said YOUR future is not set in stone.. BTW how did you get to that conclusion

Omnscience can only exist where the future is set in stone.

Logicboy03:

Never mind.



So you too are taking Ihedinobi's denial route?


Do you think there is a problem with freewill and omnipotence?

you seem to not have a good grasp of this discussion. It appears that you are simply stumbling from position to position.
For example, your question here makes zero sense. My last two posts to you was employing the movie analogy to explain how omniscience is not a negation of freewill... did you even read and understand them? What is the point of asking questions when you barely even read the responses?

Logicboy03:


Omnscience can only exist where the future is set in stone.

this is senseless speculation. Omniscience simply means not bound by time, space and human intelligence. By nature, God is perfectly able to picture the result of a myriad of choices that you make. It doesnt mean he determines what choice you make...

davidylan:

you seem to not have a good grasp of this discussion. It appears that you are simply stumbling from position to position.
For example, your question here makes zero sense. My last two posts to you was employing the movie analogy to explain how omniscience is not a negation of freewill... did you even read and understand them? What is the point of asking questions when you barely even read the responses?

Thank you. You are as deluded as Ihedinobi
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/