musKeeto:
He knew the route I'd take before I was born. Can I go against what he already knows?

No you created him in your mind. There is no definite route you ought to take in life. There are infinite routes actually...the ball is always in your court. You could have been a hindu,muslim,Buddhist etc. You are only being narrow minded by thinking your bible god created you because you were told that.

musKeeto:
He knew the route I'd take before I was born. Can I go against what he already knows?

you're arguing a straw man here.

He knows what route you take does not mean you didnt make the choice to take that route.

For example, as a teacher... i knew which student would fail his exams because he chose not to study (i am also well aware that an alternative ending exists if he made a different choice i.e. if he chose to study he will pass). Does that mean the student had no choice but to fail? Was i the one who made him fail by force?

Ihedinobi:

I claimed you were wrong and didn't show you how?



Well, the above was what I said. I don't think it said that you were wrong. I told you that your answer did not satisfy me. Oh, and I did say why it didn't. You need to pay more attention to what your fellow discussant is saying. This just shows that the person being wilfully blind and unwilling to have his opinions and beliefs critiqued is you, not me. Pay attention, wiegraf, especially to the colored print.




Again, wiegraf, for the n^th time, I hear you: omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will! Ok, now, HOW?

Uh huh, I hear that the universe must be determined/predestinated for omniscience to operate - another way of saying that omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will. The question here is why - another form of the question how in the other arrangement of the assertion.

Wiegraf, if you cannot produce an argument to justify the assertion that

- omniscience voids free will, which is also restated

- free will voids omniscience (or, in other words, omniscience can only function in a deterministic universe)

then, either say so and, if you like, state why you can't, or, leave well enough alone.

My good willfully blind, you've just stated I'm wrong again, with this very post. You've stated I've not shown you how when I have, several f*****g times. Can you, or can you not, answer the questions I've put up several times now?? Yes or no? The answers to those questions VERY CLEARLY points at a determined universe.

Again, I have shown you very clearly. Anyone with half a brain can recognize the problem, indeed many on this thread already have. The issue is resolving the problem, not its presence. That you are too stoopid or blinded to see it is not really my issue, but;

your claim that I haven't shown you the issue
your claim that I am asserting this just because 'I say so' (this shows fantastically stoopid reasoning, btw)
Your claim that you are not asserting a determined universe when you claim omniscience exists

All very wrong. That is my peev, see. You can say you personally don't accept it for whatever reasons, no problems. But to claim the above (there is no issue, you haven't been shown, etc) is good and proper retar.dation, and I will bother you about it till something else finds my fancy. Deal with it you eediot, you asked for it. Not my fault you're foo.lish.

ooman:

Nice input.

Pls note that debating with xtians about creation is like debating with the greeks about osiris and poseidon and zeus. The bible is only a myth, as you know.

The problem is that the christians allow certain people to explain the bible to them. I have read the bible from cover to cover. I certainly did not strike me as a book divinely written,but a piece of printed words designed to control millions of people. Only the wise will understand that the bible was meant for weak souls.

davidylan:

you're arguing a straw man here.

He knows what route you take does not mean you didnt make the choice to take that route.

For example, as a teacher... i knew which student would fail his exams because he chose not to study (i am also well aware that an alternative ending exists if he made a different choice i.e. if he chose to study he will pass). Does that mean the student had no choice but to fail? Was i the one who made him fail by force?

Wrong.

Precognition with god does not rest on factors like if a happens, then b will happen.

Precognition with god is constant. No matter your decisions, he is believed to already know even before you decide.

ifeness:

Are you aware that the lions have been scientifically proven to have been on the planet for more than 30million years. Your bible claimed your god created all animals in a day( not including the dinorsaurs) that alone debunks the bible god. No pyramids accounts or what soever. The universe is too beautiful and unique to be created by a god who couldnt even control the Jews.

Not true with regard to the highlights. Also i should note that your last line also destroys your argument... the universe is too beautiful, too unique, too complex, too ordered to have been a product of chance.

ooman:

Wrong.

Precognition with god does not rest on factors like if a happens, then b will happen.

Precognition with god is constant. No matter your decisions, he is believed to already know even before you decide.

another senseless, thoughtless knee-jerk comment.

God ALREADY knows your decision NOT because He made it for you but because He is not bound by time and space.

I know the way a movie ended... the director also knows but also knows several alternate endings that could have occurred had the actors made different choices.

davidylan: too ordered to have been a product of chance.

Wrong.

The universe is not ordered. Infact, disorder, entropy is on the increase always

ooman:

Wrong.

The universe is not ordered. Infact, disorder, entropy is on the increase always

You can shout "wrong" all you want. The facts unfortunately are not on your side in this case.

ooman: Why do atheists bother to discuss this dumb topic.

The problem isn't really whether a god knows what will happen or not. The problem is that this monster god claims to know end from beginning yet evil happens and when it does man's freewill is blamed.? So of what use is a god 's aforeknowledge if I may ask?

Good. Finally, a smart question. Of what use indeed is foreknowledge in a situation such as the world finds itself?

Well, if God is indeed omniscient, He can afford to create sapient beings. This is because every possible outcome of any choice the beings make would be fully known to Him and He can prepare for each outcome well ahead of the time of decision. If we insist that He knows exactly which option any given sapient would choose, then omniscience (which affords Him foreknowledge) would afford Him the ability to provide for its outcome before it is actualized.

If this is so, then the condition of this world today would not be hopeless to God. He would already have provided for the evil that troubles it. Knowledge of this is the reason that people who believe in God are hopeful by default. They can be sure that nothing has taken God by surprise and that every affliction has been totally accounted for.

People who have this hope will not contribute to the evil destroying the world. They would know with certainty that every effort put into producing good is not lost because they are working on the side of a God Who is not frustrated by the evil of today.

All that is to say simply that, God's omniscience is the source of the believer's hope and his encouragement to do good in the world rather than evil.

ifeness:
The problem is that the christians allow certain people to explain the bible to them. I have read the bible from cover to cover. I certainly did not strike me as a book divinely written,but a piece of printed words designed to control millions of people. Only the wise will understand that the bible was meant for weak souls.

I wonder, how does a divinely written book strike one? Did you expect goosebumps and chills or what exactly, what do you think?

davidylan:

another senseless, thoughtless knee-jerk comment.

God ALREADY knows your decision NOT because He made it for you but because He is not bound by time and space.

I know the way a movie ended... the director also knows but also knows several alternate endings that could have occurred had the actors made different choices.

The choices of the actors doesn't mean the movie will not end as the writer or director wanted it to end.

Did you even think before using that dumb analogy?

davidylan:

Not true with regard to the highlights. Also i should note that your last line also destroys your argument... the universe is too beautiful, too unique, too complex, too ordered to have been a product of chance.

You failed to realise that humans are not the only specie on the planet. Before us were animals who had been on here for millions of years. Why do dolphins have strong passion for humans? Can your bible explain that?

davidylan:

another senseless, thoughtless knee-jerk comment.

God ALREADY knows your decision NOT because He made it for you but because He is not bound by time and space.

I know the way a movie ended... the director also knows but also knows several alternate endings that could have occurred had the actors made different choices.

Your claim omniscience transcends time is baseless. What do you mean?

Your analogy is even exactly the best, but you know how the movie must end..

That is exactly the point.

If you could magically show up in the movie and tell them how the movie would end, they'd still be unable to change the ending. Actually, you wouldn't be able to show up in the movie if you didn't know beforehand you were going to be in the movie, else you wouldn't be omniscient. In fact, if you had no knowledge beforehand that you'd show up in the movie to tell them the end, there's no way you can show up in the movie regardless of your magical ability, else you'd be doing something you did not know about. How very omniscient...

davidylan:

You can shout "wrong" all you want. The facts unfortunately are not on your side in this case.

Or YOU can say you are sorry for saying the universe is TOO ordered. Lying to prove a holy god? How holy is that to you, duffer!

wiegraf:

My good willfully blind, you've just stated I'm wrong again, with this very post. You've stated I've not shown you how when I have, several f*****g times. Can you, or can you not, answer the questions I've put up several times now?? Yes or no? The answers to those questions VERY CLEARLY points at a determined universe.

Again, I have shown you very clearly. Anyone with half a brain can recognize the problem, indeed many on this thread already have. The issue is resolving the problem, not its presence. That you are too stoopid or blinded to see it is not really my issue, but;

your claim that I haven't shown you the issue
your claim that I am asserting this just because 'I say so' (this shows fantastically stoopid reasoning, btw)
Your claim that you are not asserting a determined universe when you claim omniscience exists

All very wrong. That is my peev, see. You can say you personally don't accept it for whatever reasons, no problems. But to claim the above (there is no issue, you haven't been shown, etc) is good and proper retar.dation, and I will bother you about it till something else finds my fancy. Deal with it you eediot, you asked for it. Not my fault you're foo.lish.

Well, between your quite silly abuses and false accusations and ridiculously poor comprehension of my posts, I think we agree now that you have no defence for your assertion. And, you're the second atheist who has failed to substantiate the claim that omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will. Cool.

Thank you for your time, wiegraf.

Ihedinobi:

All that is to say simply that, God's omniscience is the source of the believer's hope and his encouragement to do good in the world rather than evil.

Or the wish for an omniscient god is the source of your hope. And the wish for his rewards the reason that a believer will do anythin good.

Those who need a god to be good are those who are mentally impaired psychopaths. They can never be good on their own except they are threatened with eternal suffering-hell and bribed with paradise.

ooman:

The choices of the actors doesn't mean the movie will not end as the writer or director wanted it to end.

Did you even think before using that dumb analogy?

Obviously no analogy is ever as good as the actual event it aims to portray... you should know that. That is why it is called analogy...

Besides... you could even argue that the choices the actors make is not truly theirs since they are merely acting out a script. Again that is because it is an analogy period.

The most salient point appears to be one you and logicboy appear determined to ignore since it does not square with your preconcieved notions. Which is that the director having prepared several alternate endings does not remove from the fact that the largely ignorant viewing public believes strongly that only one ending occurred since that is the only one they were privy to. So is it with man. Since we can only see in one track... we firmly believe we all have one preset futures... but that removes from the fact that the God who is not bound by time and space is well able to see a different future that could have unfolded had we chosen a different path.

THAT is the point... not the shadows you all seem intent to chase.

wiegraf:

Your claim omniscience transcends time is baseless. What do you mean?

How is it baseless? How do you know the future if you are bound by time?

wiegraf:
Your analogy is even exactly the best, but you know how the movie must end..

That is exactly the point.

If you could magically show up in the movie and tell them how the movie would end, they'd still be unable to change the ending. Actually, you wouldn't be able to show up in the movie if you didn't know beforehand you were going to be in the movie, else you wouldn't be omniscient. In fact, if you had no knowledge beforehand that you'd show up in the movie to tell them the end, there's no way you can show up in the movie regardless of your magical ability, else you'd be doing something you did not know about. How very omniscient...

This is convoluted illogic at best.

Let me repeat the point again...

1. The viewing public sees only one ending
2. that does not mean the director - the big guy behind the scenes who knows the script more than anyone else - did not see other alternate endings had the script been slightly different

So is the case with God and man...

1. We are privy to only one future
2. God knows what different futures we may have had if we made different choices...

But this fact in 1-2 above does not remove the fact that those choices were ours to make in the first instance and were not predetermined by God. Being able to see the future is not the same as determining that future.

Ihedinobi:

Well, between your quite silly abuses and false accusations and ridiculously poor comprehension of my posts, I think we agree now that you have no defence for your assertion. And, you're the second atheist who has failed to substantiate the claim that omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will. Cool.

Thank you for your time, wiegraf.

You're welcome for the last bit, anytime I can indulge .

For the rest, I understand stoopidity isn't cured with a few posts. At least try to stay out of discussions you don't understand

Ihedinobi:

Well, between your quite silly abuses and false accusations and ridiculously poor comprehension of my posts, I think we agree now that you have no defence for your assertion. And, you're the second atheist who has failed to substantiate the claim that omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will. Cool.

Thank you for your time, wiegraf.

What are you talking about? Isn't it clear enough that both freewill and omniscence can't co-exist. Since you know how a thing ends and since that thing must end that way, your freewill is handicapped

ooman:

Or the wish for an omniscient god is the source of your hope. And the wish for his rewards the reason that a believer will do anythin good.

Those who need a god to be good are those who are mentally impaired psychopaths. They can never be good on their own except they are threatened with eternal suffering-hell and bribed with paradise.

I wasn't particularly expecting you to understand anything I said. In fact, I positively expected you to do your best to mangle whatecer I said.

Regardless, you asked a question. I've given an answer to it. Feel free to show where the answer is unsatisfactory or to show your discomfort with its accuracy and worthiness by creating red herrings.

davidylan:

The most salient point appears to be one you and logicboy appear determined to ignore since it does not square with your preconcieved notions. Which is that the director having prepared several alternate endings does not remove from the fact that the largely ignorant viewing public believes strongly that only one ending occurred since that is the only one they were privy to. So is it with man. Since we can only see in one track... we firmly believe we all have one preset futures... but that removes from the fact that the God who is not bound by time and space is well able to see a different future that could have unfolded had we chosen a different path.

THAT is the point... not the shadows you all seem intent to chase.

Precognition is nullified by the existence of multiple endings because then, since there are multiple endings, a particular predicted ending is negated, omniscience along with it
This is which omniscience and freewill are mutually exclusive.

ooman:

What are you talking about? Isn't it clear enough that both freewill and omniscence can't co-exist. Since you know how a thing ends and since that thing must end that way, your freewill is handicapped

this is a preconcieved idea that has no basis in the facts. Besides it appears to be the alternate excuse for atheists if indeed they find out God truly did exist. On one hand i wonder why it is of interest to people who say that God doesnt exist.

Anyway... the above is just flawed nonsense.

Ihedinobi:

I wasn't particularly expecting you to understand anything I said. In fact, I positively expected you to do your best to mangle whatecer I said.

Regardless, you asked a question. I've given an answer to it. Feel free to show where the answer is unsatisfactory or to show your discomfort with its accuracy and worthiness by creating red herrings.

You present a dumb logic, the type that only people with faith will accept. What question should I have on that. The fact is that you need a god to lead a moral life, if you weren't a xtian, you would have been an assassin or terrorist

ooman:

Precognition is nullified by the existence of multiple endings because then, since there are multiple endings, a particular predicted ending is negated, omniscience along with it
This is which omniscience and freewill are mutually exclusive.

These statements above just didnt make any sense. The conclusion appears completely divorced from the "premise" and more a product of a preconceived notion.

Again let me repeat - knowing the way things end is not an argument against freewill. You havent provided any serious reason to think so besides just repeating a nonsensical canard ad nauseum.

davidylan:

this is a preconcieved idea that has no basis in the facts. Besides it appears to be the alternate excuse for atheists if indeed they find out God truly did exist. On one hand i wonder why it is of interest to people who say that God doesnt exist.

Anyway... the above is just flawed nonsense.

And why dont you explain how it is a flawed nonsense. When you lack answer to something, you dismiss it by abuse, is that what the bible taught you? And remember you created this thread addressing atheists, that is why it matters to those smart enough to know there is no god.

davidylan:

These statements above just didnt make any sense. The conclusion appears completely divorced from the "premise" and more a product of a preconceived notion.

Again let me repeat - knowing the way things end is not an argument against freewill. You havent provided any serious reason to think so besides just repeating a nonsensical canard ad nauseum.

You failed to realize that omniscience, precognition are constants. They do not have alternatives. Its either it goes the way predicted and you are right or not and you are wrong. In this situation, freewill does not apply. The omniscient force will always enforce things to its own direction. Freewill becomes nullified.

ooman:

And why dont you explain how it is a flawed nonsense. When you lack answer to something, you dismiss it by abuse, is that what the bible taught you? And remember you created this thread addressing atheists, that is why it matters to those smart enough to know there is no god.

I've explained it over a dozen times here. you dont seem to be interested in reading anything besides admiring the font of your own posts.

ooman:

You failed to realize that omniscience, precognition are constants. They do not have alternatives. Its either it goes the way predicted and you are right or not and you are wrong. In this situation, freewill does not apply. The omniscient force will always enforce things to its own direction. Freewill becomes nullified.

this again is senseless nonsense. You know that omniscience is constant and without alternatives how? Have you ever been omniscient before?

davidylan:
Again let me repeat - knowing the way things end is not an argument against freewill. You havent provided any serious reason to think so besides just repeating a nonsensical canard ad nauseum.

And the point has to be made again - Omniscience goes beyond knowing how things end, it encompasses knowledge of the range of actions that will lead up to that end.

My last word.

davidylan:

this again is senseless nonsense. You know that omniscience is constant and without alternatives how? Have you ever been omniscient before?

Oh my god