italo:

Yes.

Look how I answer your question easily but you are scared to answer mine. Why?



We worship no one but God.



I have told you that we will get to the issue of worship, statues and Mary's 'death' right after we thrash what I have been asking you all-thread which for some strange reason, you are scared to answer.

what question is that again

What I am saying is Calling Mary blessed is not wrong...but is that all you guys do?

Mart d dart: What I am saying is Calling Mary blessed is not wrong...but is that all you guys do?

Okay good. Then what did you mean when you said I was taking Mary's word and rejecting Jesus' word...since you also agree with Mary's word that "all generations will call her blessed." How is that contrary to Christ's word?

italo:

Yes.

How?

italo: Look how I answer your question easily but you are scared to answer mine. Why?

I have...

italo:
We worship no one but God.

Ooh really, and crafting a statue and bowing before it, giving it titles is what exactly?

italo:
I have told you that we will get to the issue of worship, statues and Mary's 'death' right after we thrash what I have been asking you all-thread which for some strange reason, you are scared to answer.

You can not mention one without mentioning the other, you guys indeed have a one track mind...the bible verse, where mary identified herself as God's servant and showed God did nothing TO her to qualify her for praise/worship/exultation or whatever it is you people do, is ofcourse of no concern to you...I'm really sorry for you

Mart d dart: The Christian Church: A group not a denomination...Peter HELPED establish the church(The group who believe that Jesus is the son of God and he died for the sins of this world and follow him IN HOLINESS and TRUTH)
Further simplified: it is not a sole group(it is the nature of catholics to think it is a sole denomination) that notwithstanding, it is not a particular brand but a cluster of believers(those that follow the word in HOliness and in Truth)all over the world...so there you are

Where can I find this "group" of yours? I want to belong to the Church of God.

Are you talking about the millions of people and "churches" that teach millions of contradictory doctrines?

Does the Church of God teach contradictory doctrines?

italo:

Okay good. Then what did you mean when you said I was taking Mary's word and rejecting Jesus' word...since you also agree with Mary's word that "all generations will call her blessed." How is that contrary to Christ's word?

She is blessed and where is contradicts Christs word is:
1. Crafting Statues
2. Saying She is blessed repeatedly like the woman Jesus stopped
3. Giving her titles e.g Mother of Heaven etc
4. Using objects PRESSUMABLY given by her e.g the rosary..which also goes against the ten commandments

italo:

Okay good. Then what did you mean when you said I was taking Mary's word and rejecting Jesus' word...since you also agree with Mary's word that "all generations will call her blessed." How is that contrary to Christ's word?

She is blessed and where is contradicts Christs word is:
1. Crafting Statues
2. Saying She is blessed repeatedly like the woman Jesus stopped
3. Giving her titles e.g Mother of Heaven etc
4. Using objects PRESSUMABLY given by her e.g the rosary..which also goes against the ten commandments

are those enough for you?

bongila:

You bore me really with your one track mind. Day you speak the truth,believe me heavens won't fall. Open up man and learn nobody knows it all. Learn to think outside the box.

Teach me this truth and let us evaluate it as two reasonable adults. If I find it to be true, I will accept, but if not, I will reject it. Or do you expect me to accept every rubbish that I am told, simply because I want you to find me interesting?

Also tell me whether you also think outside the box...and whether you do not also have a one-track mind.

italo:

Where can I find this "group" of yours? I want to belong to the Church of God.

Are you talking about the millions of people and "churches" that teach millions of contradictory doctrines?

Does the Church of God teach contradictory doctrines?

This is where your naivity really shows, did you actually read what you wrote and it sounded intelligent to you?
Anyway, I will answer your question, this is where the bible comes in, any "doctrine" that is not stipulated by the Bible is a no no for me..besides churches are not supposed to have "doctrines" they are just supposed to teach the bible .....period

italo:

Teach me this truth and let us evaluate it as two reasonable adults. If I find it to be true, I will accept, but if not, I will reject it.

Also tell me whether you also think outside the box...and whether you do not also have a one-track mind.

is that the point?

Mart d dart: How?

The same way she's John's mother. She is the mother of our saviour.

Mart d dart: You can not mention one without mentioning the other, you guys indeed have a one track mind...the bible verse, where mary identified herself as God's servant and showed God did nothing TO her to qualify her for praise/worship/exultation or whatever it is you people do, is ofcourse of no concern to you...I'm really sorry for you

The Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to say: "blessed are you among women." That is praise, honour and exultation, isnt it?

Why do you want to crucify us because we do same?

Mart d dart: Ooh really, and crafting a statue and bowing before it, giving it titles is what exactly?

We use the statue to draw our mind to God who is the one that has been glorified by the life of Mary and other saints.

If we are to go by your definition of worship, we would conclude that these people are worshiping the bible below.

Mart d dart: She is blessed and where is contradicts Christs word is:
1. Crafting Statues

Where did Christ say we should not craft statues? Can you show me?

Mart d dart: . Saying She is blessed repeatedly like the woman Jesus stopped

So if I call Mary blessed once, it is okay, but I repeat it a second time, I am worshiping her? How old are you Sir, if I may ask.

Mart d dart: 3. Giving her titles e.g Mother of Heaven etc

Show me where Christ said we should not give Mary titles. I cant find it.

Mart d dart: . Using objects PRESSUMABLY given by her e.g the rosary..which also goes against the ten commandments

Show me where Christ said we shouldnt use objects presumably given by Mary and how it contradicts the 10 commandments.

Mart d dart: This is where your naivity really shows, did you actually read what you wrote and it sounded intelligent to you?
Anyway, I will answer your question, this is where the bible comes in, any "doctrine" that is not stipulated by the Bible is a no no for me..besides churches are not supposed to have "doctrines" they are just supposed to teach the bible .....period

Look who is talking about naiveity!

You dont even know that teachings are doctrines.

How do I find the Church when these "churches" of yours are teaching millions of contradictory things from the Bible?

Does God's Church teach contradictory things from the same Bible?

italo:

Where did Christ say we should not craft statues? Can you show me?

As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below
5. You shall not bow down to them or WORSHIP them, for I am a jealous God punishing the children for sins of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me

italo: So if I call Mary blessed once, it is okay, but I repeat it a second time, I am worshiping her? How old are you Sir, if I may ask.

I'm turning 18, if repetition is such a joke read Matthew 6: 7 " when you pray DO NOT keep babbling and REPEATING like pagans for they think they will be heard because of their many words" this also goes for saying or RECITING the rosary(repitition)

italo: Show me where Christ said we should not give Mary titles. I cant find it.

I refer you back to Luke11:27..what was the woman trying to do?, she was try to give mary praise, a title ofcourse "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you"

italo: Show me where Christ said we shouldnt use objects presumably given by Mary and how it contradicts the 10 commandments.

As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below

italo:

Look who is talking about naiveity!

You dont even know that teachings are doctrines.

How do I find the Church when these "churches" of yours are teaching millions of contradictory things from the Bible?

Does God's Church teach contradictory things from the same Bible?

as usual, you have repeated the same question which had been addressed...Doctrine is only seen as teachings, if you see Christianity as a religion..it is a way of life, furthermore, the church you seek, I believe I told you "it is not a denomination but a group concerned with learning, teaching and propagating the gospel in holiness and truth...the church is not a place or venue or denomination of any kind..you can form a church with a group of friends...like I said it is a group- according to the bible "a gathering of brethren"

Mart d dart: As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below
5. You shall not bow down to them or WORSHIP them, for I am a jealous God punishing the children for sins of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me

1. Is it Christ that said this? If it is it would mean that Christ is God. That in turn would mean that God was born by Mary. That would mean that Mary deserves all the honour that we give her.

But wait, does that mean that Moses sinned when he made the bronze serpent and the King of Israel when he put crafted images in the Ark of the covenant?

Mart d dart: I'm turning 18, if repetition is such a joke read Matthew 6: 7 " when you pray DO NOT keep babbling and REPEATING like pagans for they think they will be heard because of their many words" this also goes for saying or RECITING the rosary(repitition)

So was Jesus blabbing like pagans in Matt 26:44, when he repeated the same prayer 3 times?

Mart d dart: I refer you back to Luke11:27..what was the woman trying to do?, she was try to give mary praise, a title ofcourse "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you"

So was the Holy Spirit contradicting Christ when he made Elizabeth give Mary a similar title: "blessed are you among women?"

Mart d dart: As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below

Are you saying that all the artists, painters, sculptors in the world are committing grave sin?

italo:


The same way she's John's mother. She is the mother of our saviour.

Thats like saying your friend's mum is your mum coz she's your friend's mother, sounds irrational, doesn't it..Jesus said
"son behold thy mother" not people behold thy mother

italo: The Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to say: "blessed are you among women." That is praise, honour and exultation, isnt it?

It is not, it is an affirmation of Mary's blessing...repetition makes it a exultation, I guess you wouldn't know that

italo: Why do you want to crucify us because we do same?

you guys are not doing same, Did Elizabeth carve a statue, did she continually repeat what she said before till it sounded like a mantra

italo: We use the statue to draw our mind to God who is the one that has been glorified by the life of Mary and other saints.

Lol, even after God said you shouldn't....btw, do you know, you do not have to be dead to be a saint?
2 corinthians 1:1
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and timothy our brother,
to the church of God in corinth, together with all the SAINTS throughout Achaia" once you accept Jesus you are a Saint

italo: If we are to go by your definition of worship, we would conclude that these people are worshiping the bible below.

How exactly, they are bowing down before it, are they telling it to "pray for them"?

Mart d dart: as usual, you have repeated the same question which had been addressed...Doctrine is only seen as teachings, if you see Christianity as a religion..it is a way of life, furthermore, the church you seek, I believe I told you "it is not a denomination but a group concerned with learning, teaching and propagating the gospel in holiness and truth...the church is not a place or venue or denomination of any kind..you can form a church with a group of friends...like I said it is a group- according to the bible "a gathering of brethren"

Okay. So after Christ has formed his Church 2000 years ago, I can form my own with my friends abi?

Besides, where is this your "church?" You keep saying "it is a group." Where can we find this group? When Paul was writing letters to the Church all over the world, he knew where to send his letters to.

Why is your own church imaginary and invisible - nowhere to be found? If I am to write a letter to your church, whom do I give it to. Is your "church" a secret cult that does things in hiding?

Mart d dart: Thats like saying your friend's mum is your mum coz she's your friend's mother, sounds irrational, doesn't it..Jesus said
"son behold thy mother" not people behold thy mother

It's not irrational. My friend's mum can be my mother. John's friend's mother was his mother.

Mart d dart: It is not, it is an affirmation of Mary's blessing...repetition makes it a exultation, I guess you wouldn't know that

Okay, so if I say blessed is Mary once, it is not exhultation, only when I repeat it does it become exultation. Unfortunately, no dictionary defines "exultation" that way. You are bastardizing English language simply because you are anti-Catholic.

Mart d dart: you guys are not doing same, Did Elizabeth carve a statue, did she continually repeat what she said before till it sounded like a mantra

I dont know if Elizabeth carved a statue or not or repeated what she said. Do you know? The Bible is silent on that but it doesnt mean it didnt happen. Is it everything that was recorded in the Bible?

Mart d dart: Lol, even after God said you shouldn't....

I thought God told the Israelites to make two cherubs images so that it could draw their minds to the things of God. Am I wrong?

Mart d dart: How exactly, they are bowing down before it, are they telling it to "pray for them"?

Your brain has made a sharp u-turn again. Worship is now when you ask something or someone to pray for you.

So you worship whoever you have ever told to pray for you and those who tell you to pray for them are your worshipers. Right?

italo:

1. Is it Christ that said this? If it is it would mean that Christ is God. That in turn would mean that God was born by Mary. That would mean that Mary deserves all the honour that we give her.

But wait, does that mean that Moses sinned when he made the bronze serpent and the King of Israel when he put crafted images in the Ark of the covenant?



So was Jesus blabbing like pagans in Matt 26:44, when he repeated the same prayer 3 times?



So was the Holy Spirit contradicting Christ when he made Elizabeth give Mary a similar title: "blessed are you among women?"



Are you saying that all the artists, painters, sculptors in the world are committing grave sin?

first, Jesus is God the son, so yes, He is God
Mary does not deserve any form of worship coz doing so would mean She concieved Jesus and bore by her own power which would be laughable
secondly, God gave strict instructions to Moses and Bezalel(who wasn't the "King of israel" to make those...show me where the bible says you should make one of mary?
Thirdly, Jesus said the prayer thrice, how many times have you said the "hail mary"s in your lifetime presently
4. It was an affirmation of God's blessing...but when Jesus grew up her job was done, so repitition of that was utterly useless
5. I am an artist, and i can state that I do not bow down to my artworks...so no, it is not a sin to sculpt or draw

I am not anti-catholic...their doctrines are perverted
through my discussions, I have come to solid findings
1. Their arguments does not hold water as most are prone to throwing tantrums and resorting to other points other than the bible e.g Mary's words...LOL
2. The catholic conditioning has made most paranoid to an extent of repitition of various questions that when answered still lack basis
3. They know the truth taht their doctrines is not in compliance with the bible but they stubbornly choose to ignore the truth, such a pity

Anyway, I am presently about to write my exam in about 2days...I need to revise but I PROMISE, I will be back to this forum and this thread particularly, on the conclusion of my exams
It's being a priviledge to sight my views and hear others sight their's

italo:

Okay. So after Christ has formed his Church 2000 years ago, I can form my own with my friends abi?

Besides, where is this your "church?" You keep saying "it is a group." Where can we find this group? When Paul was writing letters to the Church all over the world, he knew where to send his letters to.

Why is your own church imaginary and invisible - nowhere to be found? If I am to write a letter to your church, whom do I give it to. Is your "church" a secret cult that does things in hiding?

LOL I believe that question is the product of a warped mind....normally, I would ignore such a childish and silly question but for those viewing i'll reply...I currently attend Redeemed Christian Church of God but that is not the point...the point is you can always have a group of believers and study the Word..it's nothing new, I assure you
concerning coverage, do you know what the internet is?

italo:

Teach me this truth and let us evaluate it as two reasonable adults. If I find it to be true, I will accept, but if not, I will reject it. Or do you expect me to accept every rubbish that I am told, simply because I want you to find me interesting?

Also tell me whether you also think outside the box...and whether you do not also have a one-track mind.

Teaching you the truth is an exercise in futility Italo,I need a whole day just for that.I wouldn't mind spending that time on you but the catch is,it WON'T penetrate!
I used to think just like you but glory to God I am Liberated,that's what the word of God does for you when you open up your heart and mind to learn from the Holy Spirit.
Keep aside what you've been taught and ask the Holy Spirit to be the teacher,do that and come thank me later.

Mart d dart: first, Jesus is God the son, so yes, He is God
Mary does not deserve any form of worship coz doing so would mean She concieved Jesus and bore by her own power which would be laughable

So Mary carried God in her womb, bore him, breast-fed him, helped him to take his first steps, loved him, protected him...etc

Glory to Jesus! Honour to Mary!

And you say the Mother of God is not my mother?

Mart d dart: secondly, God gave strict instructions to Moses and Bezalel(who wasn't the "King of israel" to make those...show me where the bible says you should make one of mary?

You mean God contradicted himself? Did God also give instructions to Joshua to lay prostrate and pray before the images in Joshua 7?

Sorry, we Catholics dont believe everything was written in the Bible or that the Bible is the final authority. It is you protestants who believe that everything is in the Bible that have to show us everything you say from the Bible.

Mart d dart: Thirdly, Jesus said the prayer thrice, how many times have you said the "hail mary"s in your lifetime presently

Another sharp u-turn by your brain. 1st it was bad to repeat prayers. Now it is okay to repeat it three times but four or more times makes you pagan-like.

Mart d dart: 4. It was an affirmation of God's blessing...but when Jesus grew up her job was done, so repitition of that was utterly useless

My Bible says ALL generations shall call me blessed. ALL!

Mart d dart: 5. I am an artist, and i can state that I do not bow down to my artworks...so no, it is not a sin to sculpt or draw

But you quoted a verse that said "thou shall not make graven images."

Mart d dart: I am not anti-catholic...their doctrines are perverted
through my discussions, I have come to solid findings
1. Their arguments does not hold water as most are prone to throwing tantrums and resorting to other points other than the bible e.g Mary's words...LOL

So Mary's words are different from the Bible's words? Wonderful!

Mart d dart: 2. The catholic conditioning has made most paranoid to an extent of repitition of various questions that when answered still lack basis

Like...

Mart d dart: 3. They know the truth taht their doctrines is not in compliance with the bible but they stubbornly choose to ignore the truth, such a pity

You are now God that sees our hearts

Mart d dart: Anyway, I am presently about to write my exam in about 2days...I need to revise but I PROMISE, I will be back to this forum and this thread particularly, on the conclusion of my exams
It's being a priviledge to sight my views and hear others sight their's

I wish you good luck but I'm scared for you... The way you read and read and do not understand.

Mart d dart: LOL I believe that question is the product of a warped mind....normally, I would ignore such a childish and silly question but for those viewing i'll reply...I currently attend Redeemed Christian Church of God but that is not the point...the point is you can always have a group of believers and study the Word..it's nothing new, I assure you
concerning coverage, do you know what the internet is?

Are you saying RCCG is the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago... If it is, then you are saying Christ Embassy is not the Church of Jesus because Adeboye teaches that masturbation is bad while Chris says it is not. Surely the Church of Christ cannot contradict itself, can it?

or are you saying that the Church of Jesus founded 2000 years ago can be re-founded by men anywhere and anytime and can be multiplied?

bongila:

Teaching you the truth is an exercise in futility Italo,I need a whole day just for that.I wouldn't mind spending that time on you but the catch is,it WON'T penetrate!
I used to think just like you but glory to God I am Liberated,that's what the word of God does for you when you open up your heart and mind to learn from the Holy Spirit.
Keep aside what you've been taught and ask the Holy Spirit to be the teacher,do that and come thank me later.

I thought you said I was one-track minded and not ready to open up and learn.

You are a hypocrite because you just demonstrated the exact things you accused me of after I demonstrated willingness to listen to you.

Mart d dart: LOL, not entirely practical, seeing as the devil gave up after tempting Jesus

i doubt he did, remember Jesus had to send him away saying "begone!"?

Mart d dart: What I am saying is Calling Mary blessed is not wrong...but is that all you guys do?

actually you said honoring mary is wrong! Do you realise that calling marry blessed is honor?

Mart d dart: This is where your naivity really shows, did you actually read what you wrote and it sounded intelligent to you?
Anyway, I will answer your question, this is where the bible comes in, any "doctrine" that is not stipulated by the Bible is a no no for me..besides churches are not supposed to have "doctrines" they are just supposed to teach the bible .....period

where does d bible teach d bolded?

Mart d dart: As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below
5. You shall not bow down to them or WORSHIP them, for I am a jealous God punishing the children for sins of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me

the law of moses has been render null and viod! That is why d 2 commandment from d above isn't also followed, we don't keep d sabbath nor d laws becos d laws are void.

They only become new tes laws if they are also found in the new testament.

I'm turning 18, if repetition is such a joke read Matthew 6: 7 " when you pray DO NOT keep babbling and REPEATING like pagans for they think they will be heard because of their many words" this also goes for saying or RECITING the rosary(repitition)

I refer you back to Luke11:27..what was the woman trying to do?, she was try to give mary praise, a title ofcourse "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you" As christ is the word made flesh and the word has been existing since the time of moses Exodus 20: 4-5 "you shall NOT make for thyself an image of any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth or beneath or in the waters below

refer to d above.

bongila:

Teaching you the truth is an exercise in futility Italo,I need a whole day just for that.I wouldn't mind spending that time on you but the catch is,it WON'T penetrate!
I used to think just like you but glory to God I am Liberated,that's what the word of God does for you when you open up your heart and mind to learn from the Holy Spirit.
Keep aside what you've been taught and ask the Holy Spirit to be the teacher,do that and come thank me later.

sentiment!
You don't have a point.