Bidam: when reading the bible you just don't cherry pick a scripture and build a doctrine on it..remember Paul was actually communicating with an audience here who were visited by a group who told them that salvation is by circumcision and not by Faith,hence paul had to argue his case here.leading to the council in Acts 15 or was it not this same paul that says i delight in the law of God after the inward man? are you telling me paul is not using the law to preach the gospel?

lol.. You are still not reading this thing properly, the 'law of God' Paul is referring to is the same as the law of the Spirit. It is different from the law of Moses. Check it properly, I am not cherry picking that is why I said you should read the whole chapter to have a picture of what the man was saying.

What do you know about the inward man?

shdemidemi:

lol.. You are still not reading this thing properly, the 'law of God' Paul is referring to is the same as the law of the Spirit. It is different from the law of Moses. Check it properly, I am not cherry picking that is why I said you should read the whole chapter to have a picture of what the man was saying.

What do you know about the inward man?

and i did..you don't reason.. Paul never had an encounter with Christ when he knew the Law of God. it was this encounter that gave Paul a different perspective and approach concerning the Law unlike the pharisees of Jesus era. infact the book of hebrews actually validate my point that paul quoted copious amount of the blood covenant given to moses by God to actually reveal God's intentions for the new covenant.

shdemidemi:

Dear sister, Christ himself was under the law of Moses when he was alive. His earthly ministry was to Israel and not you and I.

Matthew 10:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
5 Jesus sent out these twelve, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles and do not go into any town of the Samaritans;
Christ came primarily for Israel, they had to reject Christ as their king for you and I (gentile) to come into the fold.

The earthly ministry of Jesus was to all who would hear His voice and His sayings. He spoke to a Samaritan woman, remember? He sent out the dsiciples to go preach as part of their first evangelism to the Israelites because the law had pointed to Him already so they would know about Him. The gentiles would never understand the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 7:27 (But Jesus said unto her, Let the children FIRST BE FILLED: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.)

But Jesus later said as He was ascending to heaven, after His death:

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned

Matthew 28:19-20
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen.

John 15:6-7
ANYONE who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. 7 But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted!

John 8:31
Jesus said to the people who believed in him, "You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.

John 14:24
ANYONE who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Every word Jesus spoke is spirit and life because He did not speak of Himself but of the Father.


@shdemidemi,
Please and please, study scripture well before saying what is not the truth. Jesus words are everlasting....you are claiming His words while on earth mean nothing to you and you have just shown you do not know who you claim to believe in.

Bidam: and i did..you don't reason.. Paul never had an encounter with Christ when he knew the Law of God. it was this encounter that gave Paul a different perspective and approach concerning the Law unlike the pharisees of Jesus era. infact the book of hebrews actually validate my point that paul quoted copious amount of the blood covenant given to moses by God to actually reveal God's intentions for the new covenant.

You are getting it all wrong again, you must be finding it really difficult to comprehend what you read in romans 7 and 8. The man separates the law of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ to the law of moses.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



What we are saying here has nothing to do with Paul's perspective, when Paul got converted. Galatians 1:17,18a

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem..."

The man went to Arabia for three years before coming back with revelations from Christ.

Alwaystrue:

Matthew 7:27 (But Jesus said unto her, Let the children FIRST BE FILLED: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.).

Don,t add nor take away from the word. The heathens had no part in the kingdom during Christ's earthly ministry. Christ used an illustration of a seed to describe what was going to happen after his death when gentiles came to see him-

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Alwaystrue:
But Jesus later said as He was ascending to heaven, after His death:

[color=#006600]Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

At this time, Christ had died. He told them to take the gospel to the gentiles but none of the disciples did. They were still caught up with their Jewish tradition and the law of Moses. They still saw gentiles as unclean, little did they know that time has changed. Christ had to use a certain Apostle called Paul to propagate a new gospel for the church.

shdemidemi:

You are getting it all wrong again, you must be finding it really difficult to comprehend what you read in romans 7 and 8. The man separates the law of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ to the law of moses.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How? ok let me give you my own understanding of Rom 7.since you are trying to tell us the law was abolished which is not.I will answer the other questions later.let's take it one by one.

[b]The Law Is Spiritual: But I Am of Flesh
(7:14-16)

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.


This statement of Paul contradicts your earlier statement that the law is of the flesh.Paul has shown that God’s Law is “holy, righteous, and good” (7:12). In verse 14, Paul makes a very significant statement: “The Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” Paul seems to be saying this: “The Law is not the problem, I am.” We might paraphrase it this way: “The Law is spiritual. I am carnal.” Both statements catch us somewhat off guard. Both need explanation and clarification.

The Law has already been shown to be “holy, righteous, and good.” Now Paul tells us something more, “The Law is spiritual.” Just how is the Law “spiritual”? How does being “spiritual” differ from being “holy, righteous, and good”? To understand and agree with Paul’s words, we must take several important matters into account:

(1) Paul is speaking specifically of the Law of Moses and not just “law” in general.

(2) As such, the Law of Moses was given by God. God was the Author of the Law.

(3) The Law of Moses is Scripture, “… inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction,for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16; see also Romans 15:4).

(4) The Law defines and reveals sin, showing men to be sinners, under divine condemnation and in need of a righteousness not their own.

(5) The Law reveals the character of God to men. It also anticipates and bears witness to the righteousness of God as revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.

(6) It defines sins and determines their penalties so that those who break the Law can be punished (see 1 Timothy 1:7-11).

(7) Far more than being a mere set of rules, the Law is suggestive, giving those who seek God much fuel for meditation, prayer, and praise.

( The Law cannot be understood apart from divine illumination (see Psalm 119, especially verses 8, 26-27, 32, 33-34); 1 Corinthians 2:6–3:3). No man can understand God’s revelation apart from the Spirit of God. The Law is spiritual; it therefore requires the Spirit to interpret it to unspiritual men.

(9) The Law is not concerned merely with externals but with man’s heart and spirit.

(10) The Law turns men from trusting in themselves and points them to God, in Whom alone they must trust and worship.

The Law is not Paul’s problem my dear shdemidemi. Paul tells us that he is the problem. The Law is “spiritual,” and he is not. He is “of flesh.” His nature, by birth and by virtue of his union with Adam, is fallen. His fleshly nature is hostile toward God and friendly toward sin. Nothing good dwells in his flesh. His nature impairs not only his ability to comprehend the Law of God but inclines him to disobey it even if he did understand.

You are still missing the point-
Paul is saying, He has the old nature of sin from Adam plus the law that came to expose him, the combination of the two leads to death. Of course the law came from God, it is good on its own, but as soon as you put me under those laws my flesh can't bear it. Therefore, something has to change, Christ had to die to annul the law that I can't keep. God gave the children of Israel the law coupled with a way to atone for their sins.

The first covenant was btw man and God, each party had a role to play to keep the agreement valid. If man has the ability to keep the law, we would not need Christ. Christ died for the permanent propitiation of our sins, Christ paid the wages of sin so you and I can live in him.

It seem you are reading what you are reading to back your assertions. That book is a technical book thus many pastors avoid going close to it cos it distort all the teachings of morals. I will take you a step back, please read chapter 3 of Romans cos if you don't understand what Paul is saying from chapter 1, you will never get it from 7.

shdemidemi: You are still missing the point-
Paul is saying, He has the old nature of sin from Adam plus the law that came to expose him, the combination of the two leads to death. Of course the law came from God, it is good on its own, but as soon as you put me under those laws my flesh can't bear it. Therefore, something has to change, Christ had to die to annul the law that I can't keep. God gave the children of Israel the law coupled with a way to atone for their sins.

The first covenant was btw man and God, each party had a role to play to keep the agreement valid. If man has the ability to keep the law, we would not need Christ. Christ died for the permanent propitiation of our sins, Christ paid the wages of sin so you and I can live in him.

It seem you are reading what you are reading to back your assertions. That book is a technical book thus many pastors avoid going close to it cos it distort all the teachings of morals. I will take you a step back, please read chapter 3 of Romans cos if you don't understand what Paul is saying from chapter 1, you will never get it from 7.

Nope you are the one who is missing the whole point..even at that it wasn't adam who sinned from the beginning, it was the devil(lucifer) who is even a spirit being and that says alot about what God wants for humanity. Paul categorically says the law is spiritual can you beat that? i don't think so.In what sense then does paul say the Law is spiritual? First you must understand the Law (the Law of Moses), is spiritual because it is God’s Word. It is divine revelation, “the oracles of God”—it is God’s revelation to men. Can you shdemidemi not see that the Law is Scripture? When you come to 2 Timothy 3: All Scripture is inspired, God breathed and profitable for teaching, etc., you tend to say, “Yes, Pauline Epistles, New Testament, maybe the Gospels, but maybe some of the Old Testament.” But in essence much of that Scripture which was in the hands of those who received that statement was Law. The Law is Scripture, the Law is God-breathed, the Law is profitable. The Law speaks to men at the spiritual level. This is where the legalistic Sadducees and Pharisees missed the point. Because they were not spiritual, they could not understand the Law. Jesus kept saying to those who were the experts in the Law, “Have you not read? Have you not understood? You are greatly mistaken.” Why did He keep saying that to those who were the most expert in the Law? Because they did not understand that the Law was spiritual, and they were not. Unspiritual men cannot understand spiritual law. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus is saying the Law does far more than address mere externals. The Law addresses man’s spirit.

Bidam: Nope you are the one who is missing the whole point..even at that it wasn't adam who sinned from the beginning, it was the devil(lucifer) who is even a spirit being and that says alot about what God wants for humanity. Paul categorically says the law is spiritual can you beat that? i don't think so.In what sense then does paul say the Law is spiritual? First you must understand the Law (the Law of Moses), is spiritual because it is God’s Word. It is divine revelation, “the oracles of God”—it is God’s revelation to men. Can you shdemidemi not see that the Law is Scripture? When you come to 2 Timothy 3: All Scripture is inspired, God breathed and profitable for teaching, etc., you tend to say, “Yes, Pauline Epistles, New Testament, maybe the Gospels, but maybe some of the Old Testament.” But in essence much of that Scripture which was in the hands of those who received that statement was Law. The Law is Scripture, the Law is God-breathed, the Law is profitable. The Law speaks to men at the spiritual level. This is where the legalistic Sadducees and Pharisees missed the point. Because they were not spiritual, they could not understand the Law. Jesus kept saying to those who were the experts in the Law, “Have you not read? Have you not understood? You are greatly mistaken.” Why did He keep saying that to those who were the most expert in the Law? Because they did not understand that the Law was spiritual, and they were not. Unspiritual men cannot understand spiritual law. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus is saying the Law does far more than address mere externals. The Law addresses man’s spirit.

I repeat the law was referred to as the flesh and the Grace of God was referred to as the Spirit. No one said the source of the law is not God and no one said the law on its own is not good or spiritual. What I am telling you is that the law came to me and it revealed me as a sinner. The law gave me a test I can never solve because I inherited sin from Adam. As soon as the law was put away, I gained back the likeness I lost through Adam.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter


Bidam, I have an idea, please fix a time when we can actually take the book of Romans from verse to verse. Tomorrow evening is fine by me.

shdemidemi:

I repeat the law was referred to as the flesh and the Grace of God was referred to as the Spirit.

lolol i showed you where Paul says the law is spiritual with detailed explanations backing it, you are yet to show me from the bible where the law was referred to as flesh.

No one said the source of the law is not God and no one said the law on its own is not good or spiritual

. I am not the one saying it bro.It's paul.

What I am telling you is that the law came to me and it revealed me as a sinner. The law gave me a test I can never solve because I inherited sin from Adam.

very correct.

As soon as the law was put away, I gained back the likeness I lost through Adam.

you see the problem? the law was never put away in the first place. It is those of the flesh who are not subject to the law of God(Romans 8:5-8.). Conversion to Christ does not instantly solve all our problems. It even results in some problems we had never experienced as unbelievers. Before our salvation, we were never in opposition with sin. We were unknowingly the slaves of sin, all along thinking we were serving our own interests. Before our conversion, we were enemies of God. Our struggle was the result of our opposition to Him and His present judgment in our lives. As a result of faith in Christ, our animosity toward God ended and a new animosity—toward sin—began. The struggle which Paul is describing in Romans 7:14-25 is the result of his conversion.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

My understanding of this scripture is that the Law can define sin, and even increase it, but it cannot reduce or remove sin. When men are united with the person and work of Christ by faith, they not only die to the penalty of sin, they die to the practice of sin, and to the power of the Law over them, by which sin binds them. The real culprit, however is not the Law, for the Law is “holy, righteous, and good” . The real culprit is the flesh, which sin dominates. And the power which enables our dead bodies to overcome sin is the power of the Holy Spirit, the same power which gave life to the dead body of our Lord, raising Him to life

Bidam, I have an idea, please fix a time when we can actually take the book of Romans from verse to verse. Tomorrow evening is fine by me.

I am always at your beck and call bro...

shdemidemi:

Don,t add nor take away from the word. The heathens had no part in the kingdom during Christ's earthly ministry. Christ used an illustration of a seed to describe what was going to happen after his death when gentiles came to see him-

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And where did I add to the word? Was it not the word I showed you.

The scripture you quoted shows that it was Christ's death that brought more people to Him....For when He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw ALL men unto Him (John 12;32). This scripture HAS NOTHING to do with what we discussed.

shdemidemi:
At this time, Christ had died. He told them to take the gospel to the gentiles but none of the disciples did. They were still caught up with their Jewish tradition and the law of Moses. They still saw gentiles as unclean, little did they know that time has changed. Christ had to use a certain Apostle called Paul to propagate a new gospel for the church.

He told His disciples to take the gospel to ALL MEN & NATIONS. Peter preached to Cornelius, a gentile. Christ did not use Paul to propagate 'a new gospel' (Gal. 1:8, II Cor. 11:4) to the church, He only sent Paul to preach THE GOSPEL to the gentiles. It is the same Jesus that Paul preached that Peter preached.

Please go back and ruminate on this:
John 14:24
ANYONE who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.
If you tell me this does not apply to you then you can as well say the whole bible was not directed to you because it is clearly stated there: ANYONE!

shdemidemi:

Dear sister, Christ himself was under the law of Moses when he was alive. His earthly ministry was to Israel and not you and I.

Matthew 10:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
5 Jesus sent out these twelve, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles and do not go into any town of the Samaritans;
Christ came primarily for Israel, they had to reject Christ as their king for you and I (gentile) to come into the fold.

hmmm...interesting

Alwaystrue:

The scripture you quoted shows that it was Christ's death that brought more people to Him....For when He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw ALL men unto Him (John 12;32). This scripture HAS NOTHING to do with what we discussed.

It actually does have something to do with what I am trying to make you see. Gentiles came to Christ but there was a problem, they were gentiles. The gentile nation couldn't benefit from Christ until the book of Acts which was after the death of Christ.

Alwaystrue: He told His disciples to take the gospel to ALL MEN & NATIONS. Peter preached to Cornelius, a gentile..

Peter only preached to Cornelius cos he was compelled to do so due to what God told him about the four footed beast he saw in his trance. Paul later accused Peter and called him an hypocrite for eating with gentiles and drw back when he sees Jewish people.

Alwaystrue: Christ did not use Paul to propagate 'a new gospel' (Gal. 1:8, II Cor. 11:4) to the church, He only sent Paul to preach THE GOSPEL to the gentiles. It is the same Jesus that Paul preached that Peter preached. .

Galatians 1:8 and Cor 11:4 is not talking about the gospel Peter, James or John preached. Paul was speaking about a gospel he personalise most times-Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

1 tim 1
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust

1 cor 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

He also went to see the reputable disciples considering they were with Christ for three years, he left there angry

gal 2:6
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me.

The guy had a gospel that solely by faith, solely by grace but the rest still added rituals of the law to their gospel, after disagreements, they agreed on one thing

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision

Great teaching. To think people think all they need is some carnal concept of faith, to be saved.

James 2:18 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

JesusisLord85: Great teaching. To think people think all they need is some carnal concept of faith, to be saved.

James 2:18 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

bro, that is the difference. James, Peter and John wrote to the Jews while Paul,s message was to the church. How can you push Gentiles into those verses when Gentiles are not even mentioned. We can learn from them but they are not doctrines to the church.

shdemidemi:

It actually does have something to do with what I am trying to make you see. Gentiles came to Christ but there was a problem, they were gentiles. The gentile nation couldn't benefit from Christ until the book of Acts which was after the death of Christ.

Peter only preached to Cornelius cos he was compelled to do so due to what God told him about the four footed beast he saw in his trance. Paul later accused Peter and called him an hypocrite for eating with gentiles and drw back when he sees Jewish people.

Galatians 1:8 and Cor 11:4 is not talking about the gospel Peter, James or John preached. Paul was speaking about a gospel he personalise most times-Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

1 tim 1
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust

1 cor 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

He also went to see the reputable disciples considering they were with Christ for three years, he left there angry

gal 2:6
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me.

The guy had a gospel that solely by faith, solely by grace but the rest still added rituals of the law to their gospel, after disagreements, they agreed on one thing

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision

Paul and Peter preached Jesus. 'My gospel' was 'my good news'. Paul did not create a new gospel but that which Christ gave Him to the gentiles and He told them Christ died for THEIR SINS which is contrary to your claim that Paul meant we should belief Christ died and resurrected. How will they know what sin was if He did not explain it to them.

Belief in Jesus entails belief in the whole of HIM, you do not believe part and leave part. You do not seem to even understand what BELIEF AND FAITH means.
Jesus is the one who saves NOT PAUL. Jesus is our HEAD not Paul. It is Jesus Christ that will judge not Paul. Paul will be judged as well.

Everything Paul said pointed to Jesus. Faith and Grace are not mere words. Grace means the help of God which is the Holy Spirit(I Corinthians 15:9-11).
It is amazing you pick and chose scriptures that apply to you where you want and later come back to disregard the very words of the Saviour, Messiah and Head Jesus Christ whose words are Spirit and Life. Amazing!



John 14:24
ANYONE who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

If you can argue those explicit words of Jesus Christ to mean it is not referring to you just means you do not even know what or in whom you believe.

Alwaystrue:

Paul and Peter preached Jesus. 'My gospel' was 'my good news'. Paul did not create a new gospel but that which Christ gave Him to the gentiles and He told them Christ died for THEIR SINS which is contrary to your claim that Paul meant we should belief Christ died and resurrected. How will they know what sin was if He did not explain it to them..

you are correct, Paul and Peter preached Jesus, even John the Baptist preached Jesus but God's programme changed according to time. Same God that says creeping things were forbidden told Peter He should not forbid what he calls clean. The gospel under John, Jesus(flesh) and the disciples were under the law and primarily for the nation of Israel. The risen Christ brought a gospel apart from customs and the law, He gave Paul the gospel through revelations to every believer.

As for knowing what sin is, every man under the face of the earth has been given a conscience by God to know right from wrong.

Alwaystrue:
Belief in Jesus entails belief in the whole of HIM, you do not believe part and leave part. You do not seem to even understand what BELIEF AND FAITH means.
Jesus is the one who saves NOT PAUL. Jesus is our HEAD not Paul. It is Jesus Christ that will judge not Paul. Paul will be judged as well...

Like I said to you, Christ that died was restricted to saying many things under the covenant of the law, Christ said He had a lot to say but the Spirit would say all these things. The risen Christ said all through Paul, Paul knew nothing about the gospel of Christ during His earthly ministry neither was he taught by the rest of the disciples. He got the gospel directly from Christ.

Alwaystrue:
Everything Paul said pointed to Jesus. Faith and Grace are not mere words. Grace means the help of God which is the Holy Spirit(I Corinthians 15:9-11).
It is amazing you pick and chose scriptures that apply to you where you want and later come back to disregard the very words of the Saviour, Messiah and Head Jesus Christ whose words are Spirit and Life. Amazing!...

I am not disregarding the word of Christ cos He said many things that correlate with the gospel He gave to Paul. We just have to divide the word of truth rightly.

[color=#990000]21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Alwaystrue:

John 14:24
ANYONE who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

If you can argue those explicit words of Jesus Christ to mean it is not referring to you just means you do not even know what or in whom you believe.

Remember, Christ spoke before the birth of the church and Christ spoke to the church after he rose through Paul. In this dispensation the word of Christ to be obeyed is believing in the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah cos therein the power unto salvation

Hebrews 10: 26-27

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The bible still recognises that believers can still SIN both wilfully and ignorantly after receiving JESUS.

annyplenty: Hebrews 10: 26-27

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The bible still recognises that believers can still SIN both wilfully and ignorantly after receiving JESUS.

The book of Hebrews is not to the church, it can be regarded as old testament based on its content. Before reading any chapter, we need to know exactly who the chapter is addressed to. It makes all the difference in the word.

Hebrews 10: 26-29

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.[b] 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you


You have been bought out of condemnation, renew your mind.

JESUS told the church at Ephesus to REPENT[/b]after they believed and fell

5 Remember therefore from whence [b]thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.

What HE says to the church, He says even to you that are reading or replying this thread, REPENT.

mark 13:37

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

JESUS told the church at Ephesus to REPENT [/b]after they believed and fell

5 Remember therefore from whence [b]thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.

What HE says to the church, He says even to you that are reading or replying this thread, REPENT.

mark 13:37

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

annyplenty: JESUS told the church at Ephesus to REPENT [/b]after they believed and fell

5 Remember therefore from whence [b]thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.

What HE says to the church, He says even to you that are reading or replying this thread, REPENT.

mark 13:37

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

My dear, you are reading from revelation...The book of revelation does not in any way speak to you and me. The church under the gospel of grace would have gone before tribulation. At that time they would not have the Holy Spirit to interpret the scripture to them, they will work for their salvation. No more grace as we have it today, only 144 000 of them will be saved.

A description of the first coming of Christ, pre-tribulation-

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



A description of post tribulation-

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

Zechariah 14:9

“And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day (that is starting with His Second Coming to the Mount of Olives) there shall be one LORD, and His name one.” Which of course fits perfectly with Revelation 19, “and his name shall be called King of Kings and Lord of Lords

Revelations 2:16

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

annyplenty:
Revelations 2:16

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

you just quoted the bible there without addressing what I said.

shdemidemi:

you just quoted the bible there without addressing what I said.

I have observed that most threads lead to argument and confusion. This I strictly want to avoid in order not to derail my purpose and calling. If you have contribution to the thread, post it. If I have contribution, I will post it. The readers and viewers can pray for discernment, pick what they want and discard the rest.

But let me say something to what you posted.

Not the whole of the book of REVELATIONS are post-rapture. Revelations, chapters 1 to chapter 6 are pre-rapture or pre-great-tribulation. I have done a teaching titled THE BOOK WITH THE 7 SEALS (PART 1). I will soon post the (part 2). it will throw more light on this.

The 7 churches that JESUS came to give their report cards to apostle John and told some of them to repent had been established as early as the time of the apostles and they had been falling away as early as that. They are not churches that were yet to be established. Jesus was telling john what the churches had done and not what they will do during any tribulation. If you observe critically, you will see that all those things that JESUS mentioned as the shortcomings of those churches are what are happening in majority of the churches of today. If JESUS told those early churches to repent, is HE going to tell us to just carry on in our own time, even when what we do today in churches are worse than what those early churches did?

rev chapter 1: summarised the encounter of John with JESUS on island of patmos
rev chapter 2 and 3: JESUS gave report of 7 churches
rev chapter 4: described the throne of GOD
rev chapter 5: search for who could break the 7 seals of the book at the right hand side of God.
see my teaching on that https://www.nairaland.com/1325646/end-time-bible-teaching-book-7
rev chapter 6: JESUS begins to break the seals. when HE breaks the 6th seal, rapture happens.

So the church will not have gone until chapter 7 of revelations.

The book of Zechariah you quoted described the 2nd coming of Jesus and not rapture. At that time, He will be coming back with the raptured saints to come and fight the battle of Armageddon.

annyplenty:

I have observed that most threads lead to argument and confusion. This I strictly want to avoid in order not to derail my purpose and calling. If you have contribution to the thread, post it. If I have contribution, I will post it. The readers and viewers can pray for discernment, pick what they want and discard the rest.

But let me say something to what you posted.

Not the whole of the book of REVELATIONS are post-rapture. Revelations, chapters 1 to chapter 6 are pre-rapture or pre-great-tribulation. I have done a teaching titled THE BOOK WITH THE 7 SEALS (PART 1). I will soon post the (part 2). it will throw more light on this.

The 7 churches that JESUS came to give their report cards to apostle John and told some of them to repent had been established as early as the time of the apostles and they had been falling away as early as that. They are not churches that were yet to be established. Jesus was telling john what the churches had done and not what they will do during any tribulation. If you observe critically, you will see that all those things that JESUS mentioned as the shortcomings of those churches are what are happening in majority of the churches of today. If JESUS told those early churches to repent, is HE going to tell us to just carry on in our own time, even when what we do today in churches are worse than what those early churches did?

rev chapter 1: summarised the encounter of John with JESUS on island of patmos
rev chapter 2 and 3: JESUS gave report of 7 churches
rev chapter 4: described the throne of GOD
rev chapter 5: search for who could break the 7 seals of the book at the right hand side of God.
see my teaching on that https://www.nairaland.com/1325646/end-time-bible-teaching-book-7
rev chapter 6: JESUS begins to break the seals. when HE breaks the 6th seal, rapture happens.

So the church will not have gone until chapter 7 of revelations.

The book of Zechariah you quoted described the 2nd coming of Jesus and not rapture. At that time, He will be coming back with the raptured saints to come and fight the battle of Armageddon.

Compare what you see in those seven chapters to what you see in the epistles written to the church. Therein lies your answer cos you will definitely contradict yourself when you put the bond woman and her son under the same roof with the free woman and her so. LEGALISM AND GRACE cant mix.

Some were rebuked for being lukewarm. some were rebuked for not evangelising again. some were rebuked for not seeking after the Spirit of God but after material things. none of these were laws of moses. these are some of what the churches of today are guilty of.

Remember, Jesus came to tell John all these things after crucifixion, burial and ascencion. Definitely it was the church he was talking to and He called them by the name of church. Most of the churches were based in gentile nations. so He was not talking to jews in particular.

JESUS understands perfectly what HE said, and John, an apostle of Him also understood perfectly what the Lord meant.

shdemidemi:

Compare what you see in those seven chapters to what you see in the epistles written to the church. Therein lies your answer cos you will definitely contradict yourself when you put the bond woman and her son under the same roof with the free woman and her so. LEGALISM AND GRACE cant mix.

annyplenty:
Some were rebuked for being lukewarm. some were rebuked for not evangelising again. some were rebuked for not seeking after the Spirit of God but after material things. none of these were laws of moses. these are some of what the churches of today are guilty of.

Remember, Jesus came to tell John all these things after crucifixion, burial and ascencion. Definitely it was the church he was talking to and He called them by the name of church. Most of the churches were based in gentile nations. so He was not talking to jews in particular.

JESUS understands perfectly what HE said, and John, an apostle of Him also understood perfectly what the Lord meant.

John got the revelation from Christ. The revelation has nothing to do with gift of grace, like I said it is not this church age gospel. The revelation given to Paul is what you and I are gonna be judged by according to scriptures.

shdemidemi:
John got the revelation from Christ. The revelation has nothing to do with gift of grace, like I said it is not this church age gospel. The revelation given to Paul is what you and I are gonna be judged by according to scriptures.

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid!!! That's a from romance so if u give ur life to christ believe and u continue to sin without asking for repentance u are on ur own o grace has expiry date in case you don't know. God can never ever be mocked

mygirrl:

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid!!! That's a from romance so if u give ur life to christ believe and u continue to sin without asking for repentance u are on ur own o grace has expiry date in case you don't know. God can never ever be mocked

The same Romans says 'But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:'. Don't confuse yourself, 'Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound' was a question they asked the apostle, He replied saying, how can we who are in Christ sin. God has redeemed us from sin through the blood of Christ. Go and check it properly.