The issue isnt about God creating the Devil or God's foresight.
it is about God giving his creatures free will?
Now supposing God , as he was moulding lucifer (i'm logicizing here because i'm not in God's mind).
supposing as he was making satan, looks into the future and see's satan doing evil,causing a rebellion.
He smashes satan. makes anoda being,
so far as the being has ,free will, that being can choose to do evil.
if you say , God should have stopped evil,then in a way you are saying God should eliminate free will.
if God eliminates free will,he then has robots!
Remember God is sovereign,but God is also a being!! he has emotions and personality.
And he doesnt like fakeness.
read thru scripture , you'll see that God doesnt like being tolerated.
its either you give him all or nothing.

Now , the question who put evil in satan?
is it God?
it cant be God.
y?
Because if it were God? then God wouldnt be qualified to judge him? in other words , God would be judging Lucifer on trumped up charges the way , ken saro wiwa was judged.
And, Satan , being a wise being, would accuse God of INJUSTICE.
now, (again,i'm logicizing).
Creation, the world is held together by the integrity of GOD'S WORD.
meaning, the stability in creation - in DEPENDENT ON THE QUALITY OF THE UPHOLDING FORCE.
AND THIS UPHOLDING FORCE IS INDEPENDENT OF GOD.
i.e it is a unique entity that is from God but is self sustaining.
The bible calls this thing - the word of GOD.
. this is deep but bear with me.
if for example God lies. and his integrity becomes IMPERFECT,
then the power in his word becomes weakened!
since it is the power of his word that sustains the visible world.
weakening of power in God, leads to weakening of the forces binding matter!
this will lead to disintegration of the physical world as we know.
in essence- chaos.
That is why , God , is HOLY.
the ANGELS cry HOLY HOLY HOLY.
GOD by nature CANNOT SIN OR DO EVIL.
so i'm making a supposition , as if GOD CAN DO EVIL,BUT CHOSES NOT TO.
i'm making these arguments here.

The bible says, Satan "corrupted his wisdom". so satan exercised his will and came up with the decision to do evil.
this also proves that angel are not ROBOTS.
The bible doesnt go into details, because that's not important for now.
But i think, Lucifer thought and thought and thought on the matter , schemed and planned.
He pulled away 1/3rd of the forces (angels ) of heaven to wage war to unseat God.
The accusation is that God tempted satan?!
the bible says God doesnt tempt any man.
When you think of an omniscience it beyond human comprehension.
because,an omniscient being will see the end, and still see the now. living in two or multiple time frames at once.
looking at things from this view point.
God knows , it will be well at the end!

^^^ So God cannot stop evil without eliminating freewill, then where is the truth in saying God can do all things?
And you are saying he has emotions! God has emotions like anger, fear etc etc
what makes him different from a man? And if God didn't put evil in satan, then who put it (you can't tell me that the devil just decided one day to become evil)? Who imbued the devil with beauty beyond human comprehension that led to his pride and downfall? And finally, if the devil has freewill, why has God condemned him already?

kambo this guy talk too much, hanhan




Everything to me is just like a movie :

*God is Apha and Omega (know the end from begining)

* God know what satan will turn to before creating him
* God put forbiden fruit in graden of eden ( why? For what purpose? )
* God created eve - eve eat forbiden fruit
* God sent Adam and Eve out and lock the gate of Eden

Thousand years later, God sent Jesus

-- major reason why Jesus came is to die

* God Created Judas and Judas exposed Jesus (he helped to accomplished Jesus plan)
* Jesus was captured and killed by the jews (they were used to accomplished Jesus mission)
* Jesus ressurect and went back to heaven
SATAN was blame for everything and we have Heaven and Hell threaten


kambo - a poser for you, you said Satan killed Jesus, what was Jesus plan on Earth? ( I think is to die accrding to Bible, so why accusing someone for his death)

am ashamed i used to believe in all that devil,angel crap b4. now the whole thing just sounds like tales from a pre-school story book. smh

@Danyll

Da-ny-ell:

^^^ So God cannot stop evil without eliminating freewill, then where is the truth in saying God can do all things?

This question is ILLOGICAL (illogical based on the premises i had established earlier).
And you are trying to establish a logical point.
Let me use an example u a familiar with in this world.

say , armed robbers threaten citizens resulting in lots of deaths and maimings.
and senate passes a bill giving individuals the right to possess fire arms.
what is the implication of this?
some citizens will not be so helpless before armed robbers.
on the other hand, death toll from individual incidence will be on the rise.
jealous spouses will kill each other, kids will accidentally kill house members.
Teenagers will bring guns to school.

In a law court, which rules by logic, will you sue the gun manufacturer for making guns?
will you sue the government for allowing individuals to possess fire arms?

if in physical affairs you can use ur mind then why are you trying to establish illogical arguments?!
If God grants beings free will, then He God can reward and judge actions.
In the bible, Joseph had free will to sleep with potiphar's wife,but he used his free will to do good,
God reward that act.
In the bible Achan, had the free will to steal cursed items, he too was judged.
If God, possessed joseph, and spun his legs and pulled him out of the room,then it would be God doing everything
it would be a CHARADE!! .
If you are really serious about finding out if God exists, then take the Bible and do you research.
It seems you want somebody to answer all your questions concerning the bible God here while you just lay back
and throw accusations.
feel free to try to establish an argument against God but do your own work.

in the bible, God can do all things. right but it explicitly states they are somethings God cannot do.
1.) God cannot lie
2.) God cannot circumvent/break his Word.
under 2.) God's word doesnt have more power in a man's life than a man's word!!
if God says, "I will bless you and make you this or that"
but you keep countering that word- it is your word that will prevail!! in your own life.
For example,
God told the children of isreal, he would give them a Land flowing with milk and honey,
But they kept saying they would die in the wilderness.
which word prevailed!? - God's or man's?!
This underscores the fact that God cannot drag a man kicking and screaming into heaven or to do his will.
Man is ultimately responsible for his actions.

Da-ny-ell:

And you are saying he has emotions! God has emotions like anger, fear etc

funny question.
God is as emotional as any human could ever be. But his emotions are not tainted by sin.
when God created adam,the first man,he breathed into adam, a part of him (God),that part became adam's spirit.
Man,is created in God's image.
Man's attributes are an extension of God's attributes. except the bad part (which are from the devil/sin nature).
God laughs, God smiles, God rejoices. I dont think God weeps.
God gets dissapointed - he was dissapointed in making saul king.
Jesus wept.
The Holy spirit weeps.
God has a sense of Humour!.
God is cool.
Does God get angry! u've not read the OT yet.
when God's anger booms - the earth trembles!!.
But God cannot and doesnt sin.
God is ultra patient...
if i cud use such a word.

God has no fear . zero fear.
Stop to think about it (even though there's scriptural backing)
what will make God afraid!!!.
God says you , as a christian, should RESIST fear!!.
The first thing fallen adam did was to cower in fear from God.
Fear has torment. Fear is a spirit .. an evil spirit.

Da-ny-ell:

what makes him different from a man?

Man is created in God's image.
God is a class of spirit all on his own.
Angels are anoda class of spirit beings.
and Humans are anoda class of spirit beings.
But Angels ar not created in God's image . Only man is.
A child born resembles the parents in many ways. including containing the parent's dna prints.
Man is no different. even in a fallen (unrestored state) fallen man still has God's attributes - and the devils too.

Da-ny-ell:

And if God didn't put evil in satan, then who put it (you can't tell me that the devil just decided one day to become evil)?

I'll quote you a verse:
1john 1 vs 5.
"... God is light and in him there is no darkness".
james 1 vs 13.
"Let no man say when he is tempted, i am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,
neither tempted he any man: But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust,
and enticed."

The rule for interpreting scripture is to establish at least two witnesses,i.e
two verses properly establishing a matter.
God didnt tempt the devil, and God didnt put sin in the Devil!.
God isnt responsible for that..

Da-ny-ell:

Who imbued the devil with beauty beyond human comprehension that led to his pride and downfall?

The scripures i've quoted have established that God cannot do evil and doesnt tempt.
But this question is similar to the statement adam made when he sinned.

Genesis 1 vs 9.
adam is JUSTIFYING HIS SIN,BY ACCUSING GOD- like your doing.

vs12
"and he (adam) said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,
she gave me of the tree, and I did eat"

stop to think.
if God is wicked, would he give anoda being a superlatively good gift?
if satan chose not to rebel against god would his beauty have vanished?
assuming the purpose of God giving him his beauty was to life his head up in pride?!

Da-ny-ell:

And finally, if the devil has freewill, why has God condemned him already?

God has released a decree on Satan. Satan outcome is sealed. like Jesus redemption was prophecied..
once God has spoken,his Word cannot fail.
Jesus' redemptive work was prophecied in the garden of eden. it came to pass.
Satan is as good as nailed, he has no future and no hope. and God's word will not fail.
When God speaks its as good as done.
from the Bible, why hasnt satan been rounded up and thrown away yet?
Because,God is waiting for every one to hear the gospel of the kingdom and make a decision
whether to b part of God's kingdom (by being born again) or remain in Satan's kingdom (every man belongs to one of the two . )
God is not willing that any man should go to hell - Bible makes that clear.
But some will choose hell over heaven.
The choice is YOURS.

ON THE Satan part - why Lucifer sinned . the bible is terse on that. but it seems,
it came from meditation and then obsession with the desire to be God.
i say this because, the pattern for sin in the book of james i quoted earlier is - lust (strong desire)
act(sin).
the seed for sin was planted in eve , same way.
"you shall not die" - she saw the fruit. thought about it long enough. reached out and plucked some.
ate it sinned and that was it.

Satan,then lucifer, must have , in his silent moments being thinking ,toying with the idea of being God.
in this case he didnt need to be tempted..
And sorry, you dont need to be tempted by a being to sin. its proven in scriptures.
zechariah 14: 16 ,17.
When the earth is restored..
some folks will not still come to Jerusalem to worship!! (this is during the millenial reign they'll be no devil.) yet man will still not obey!! . for this folks no rain will be sent to them.
underscoring wat i'm saying about free will.
with free will comes sin potential.

@nnofaith

You are ashamed because of how it feels.
Your feelings are not the objective meters of truth.
physical evidence is not objective enough.
When Jesus rose from the dead,
one of his disciples doubted except he could put his hands in the holes in Jesus' hands and handle him physically.
What did Jesus say to him.
Jesus Rebuked him.
And said "blessed are those who dont see yet believe".
That word is same for you today.
The Bible , all those "stories", were written for future generations learning.
The doubting thomas story was put there for folks like you.
"it sounds like"..
The bible says , that God in his wisdom, has chosen to use the foolish things of his Bible to save people,
to scientists and educated folks , it "sounds foolish" truly.
the miracles sound far fetched, stupid etc.. ha ha ha.
God uses this foolishness to save those who will believe.
when God told a 99 year old man, and his old wife that they'll bear a child,not just a child but a son,
that those old paps will suckle a child?! it was so foolish that sarah laughed!!!
(its recorded in the Bible for you. ) it sounded INcredulous.
But , Abraham, was FOOLISH , enough to believe it.
And with his faith- the miracle came to pass. When sarah , held a baby in her arms , the joke was on the nay sayers.
Why dyu think christianity is giving so many people head ache.
They want something they can sweat for - where they'll say jogg 100 miles, crawl on your knees round your state,
then you'll be accepted by God. at least that one sounds plausible to a man who's committed heinous acts.
But simple - believe/accept/confess Jesus as Saviour.Ah too simple. junk. too easy to be true.
You've got free will,including free will to doubt.


@wazobia

wazobia_for_u:
kambo - a poser for you, you said Satan killed Jesus, what was Jesus plan on Earth? ( I think is to die accrding to Bible, so why accusing someone for his death)

yes Jesus plan was to die to save man. true.
But
let me quote something God said to Satan , in the garden of eden.

Gen 3 vs 14.

"... it shall bruise thy head and thou shall bruise his feet".

God gave the devil, operating thru a serpent,
a prophetic word.
meaning, He ,the devil, was going to crushed-legally.
Satan knew God's word never fails.
Satan knew he was going to beaten and rendered a fool but he didnt know how or who was going to do it!
so he kept watching..
when baby moses was born, he incited pharoah, to kill all babies.
But the chosen one wasnt moses.
He incited joseph's brothers to kill him,but plan got foiled.
And when Jesus was born, he incited Herod to kill all children!
but God was a step ahead of him.
Now, wen satan got adam to sin, legal control but not ownership of planet earth passed to satan!
that's why the bible calls him the God of this world.
he still is the god of this world..
but his time is running out. that's why he wants to get as many people to go to hell with him as he can.
When Jesus prayed in the garden of gethsemane, he Jesus was in spiritual battle , in order words Jesus
didnt fight the war to oust satan physically, but spiritually. Jesus won in prayer so that what happened
afterwards was just scripts playing out. He had blinded satan, in that place of prayer so that satan,
committed a legal crime - killing an innocent man.
as adam committed legal blunder and lost the earth to satan.
Satan committed legal blunder and lost his power.
When Jesus rose from the dead-he made this statement- "all power in heaven and and on earth has been given to me!"
so the joke was on satan. He became stripped.
in the new testament, it is written, if satan knew what he was doing, he wouldnt have killed Jesus!!
ha ha ha - the joke was on him.
He lost big time. he lost in heaven, got kicked to earth. Jesus came to earth on his own ground and kicked him again.
man -- the guy has lost over and over and over again.

one verse in the bible says that Jesus' pre eminent plan was not just to die to save man but thru his death to destroy
(render powerless/impotent) him that had the power of death ,that is the devil.
So satan had the power of death but thru Jesus resurrection, that power was taken from him.
thru the fear of death all men were captives to satan, .. . But in Christ, that power has changed hands.
Christians dont die- they sleep. the bible mocks death , it says "oh death where is your sting!!"
"oh grave where is your bla bla (forgotten)". the sting of death is sin. but Jesus has conquered sin for mankind.
Jesus gave man victory over sin, the grave and death.


peace guys.
it was nice arguing with u folks.

^^^ You contradicted yourself a few times. In one part of your post you indicated that God's word can be changed by man's will and in another part you are giving the notion that God's word cannot be changed (which is it?)
in another part, you said that God didn't create evil but your bible disagrees with you, Isaiah 45:7 proves that your God created evil.

^^^
I ddnt contradict myself.
I said God's word in person's life. understand the context.
God's word , in certain cases , in a persons life doesnt over ride the person's own word.
and i gave you instances. there's not contradiction there.
The bible is given for our learning and education.
infact in scriptures it has happened over and over where God spoke and it didnt come to pass.
why? because God's word failed. no.
But Because God's LAW doesnt fail.
God's word never fails.
Man's will is never voilated by God.
God can frustrate man's will,externally but not over ride Man's will.

and FYI, bible prophecy can be prevented.. by man!!
this doesnt mean God's word failed but the word was contingent on what man would do or not do.

in other words - they are some words God speaks, whose fulfilment is contingent, on the actions of the
party spoken to.
And they're some words God speaks which isnt contingent on the party addressed.
For example.
Jonah was sent to the people of nineveh. God was going to judge the city.
Jonah spoke to them- they repented. God changed his mind.
Judgement averted.
Jonah got angry - that God changed his mind..
Now, for all you saying God is wicked.. read the response of God.
God is more interested in saving people than in judging them.
God will bear long with people , give them ample time to repent and change, but he will not tolerate
sin forever. when the time is up . he'll judge and then it will too late.

In the case of David.
David had just finished committing adultery.
In a nutshell, God was going to probably kill David on the spot,
But David fell and begged for mercy when the prophet accused him.
God spared davids life.

Isaiah told king Hezekaiah, to prepare for death.
Wasnt that God's word.it was.
Hezekaiah, begged God for more years to live.
God consented. and added years to Hezekaiah life.

Most of these cases where God changes his mind involve words of Judgement/reward.
God can tell a man , i will bless you and make you rich (like he told eli and his family)
Eli's family was to always have a man on the priestly lineage.
But that man, out of his free will, could sin so grossly and terribly that God
revokes the reward!. happened many times in scripture.
God could promise to judge a man severely.
But the man could be so repentant and sorrowful for his wrong deeds, that God tempers or averts the Judgement.
God is more interested in saving,showing mercy than in destroying.

Isaiah 45:7
in some translations that verse reads- "i form light and make the dark" (TLB)

I said the rule for interpreting scriptures is in context.
A single verse is not taken out to build a doctrine.
Except you are simple trying to make a case against God.

the earlier verses i quoted to you show expressly, in God there is no darkness.
And that God tempts no man.
And God is light etc.
putting all these verses together and them putting them besides a single verse that says
God creates evil (which isnt even translated evil other translations)
so which do you chose.
There's a verse saying God is love.
There's a verse saying (explicitly) that God cannot lie.
There's a verse saying God doesnt tempt man and cannot be tempted.
There's a verse saying doesnt want any one to perish . etc

any casual reader of the bible will find some ,seeming contradictions,no doubt.
Which is why God gave his Children the Helper, to guide them into all truth.
so putting that lone verse against other verses , you'll see that , with all honesty,
God is not evil.

let's say that logically you want to hold on to that verse,
ok.
Then if you believe that God creates evil, and all the evil in the world is true,
you'll also have to hold on to all the other verses -- that shows that God isnt evil.
point. 1.) interprete scriptures in context.
2.) if you find a scripture that seems contradictory,none is,but man's understanding is limited.
stay on God's side.
if you'r a christian, ask your helper,the Holy spirit to shed more light.
A non christian cannot fully understand the Bible , because he has only his mind to reason with.

there's also a scripture that says:

"The thief cometh not but to steal,to kill, and to destroy"? - how about that.

"there's a scripture that says' I'm come that you may have life and more abundantly"

there's a scripture that says " would a father give a son stone if he ask for bread,
or a snake if he ask for fish , if you being more evil will not do so such
how MUCH MORE will GOD (.... ) " (paraphrased)

how about that scripture..
if confused.. look for other scriptures.. to get the full pix.
if still confused.. seek the Helper.
if no answer either way. chill. you were not meant to know everything over here.
(the bible says, we know in part).
But with bible questions, if you pray hard and seek God about it, the answer will come. may not come when you expect
but God most likely will answer.
some people have received answers to puzzling questions many years later.

some verses are verses explicitly need no context.
they'r explicit enough.

"in the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth" Gen 1.1. period.
That answers the issue of how earth came to be.

God made man from the dust of the ground. - answers how man came to be. That man was created not evolved.
This ar clear words.
You dont need any more context to understand this.
if you want to believe it or reject - the choice is yours. use your free will.

God's word showing he can have mercy and revoke a judgement (doesnt happen all the time).

"if my people that are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray AND TURN from their evil ways
and seek my face, I WILL hear their prayers and heal their land etc " (paraphrased).
here obviously the ppl had done sin and attracted judgement but when they repented, God had mercy.

this is a word of God . showing he can have mercy. and God's word CANNOT BE broken.
so if he explicitly says he can have mercy on his people, then he can. But like i said,
read in context.


here's anoda one for you atheists folks.

"My word they are spirit and they are life, the letters killeth"
"Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"

the attitude you approach God's word with is important. if you read to really know God he will reveal himself to you.
but if you read to find points to accuse him with, you'll never discover the truth. you'll
get the "letters" that killeth.

Kambo, you talk too much and that is why you are contradicting yourself