DrummaBoy:

I will certainly not give Bidam the pleasure of trading words or name calling. It's not worth it.

Grow up,you started the attack.

Ihedinobi:
I think that any intensive research on the history of the tenth will find that the effort of Moses's Law was to show that it was Yah'weh that was deserving of that portion and that the other gods and the humans who demanded it were pretenders.

Not sure you got this from scriptures. Probably your opinion.

Ihedinobi:
This levy takes various forms but the principle is always the same. The one who benefits from another's generosity shows their gratitude by giving that other a share in the new wealth that resulted from that generosity. That is wherr the tithe comes from. Moses simply took a very old tradition that derived from basic human nature and the relationship between a Sovereign and their subject and made a law out of it with specific percentages.

You give the impression it was all Moses idea. It's possible you are right o!

Ihedinobi:
We have indeed been given a new Nature that is biased to righteousness, but we ourselves have a lot of learning to do to grow up into its instincts and reflexes. Scriptures make no bones about the fact that we must grow after we have been born anew, that we must learn to become like Christ. It is not automatic, it takes diligent schooling to get to the point where our first instinct is to do good and not evil. That is why Christianity was first called "the Way" - before ever we were called Christians, we were called followers of the Way.

This learning process, how long does it take? one month? one year? or a life time? i know some tithers will tithe till they hit the grave meaning they will never truly become like Christ.

In addition to what Enigma has so ably enumerated above, I wish to add one other thing we often over look in the name of Compulsory Tithing: What it does to the conscience of the weak believer.

The tithe is taught today in church in a manner that places a curse on anyone who doesn't tithe, Malachi 3.

The weak believer feels condemned if he doesn't tithe; he attributes every ill in his life to this; he's continually hounded by tithe preaching; he is enslaved to a weekly/monthly bondage; etc. It is sheer evil to behold, especially when U are looking at it all from the point of view of an enlightened and liberated individual.

Paul in 1 Cor 8 calls all this 'wounding' the conscience of a fellow Christian and he says it is sinning against Jesus.

That is the reason compulsory tithing must be resisted and resisted with the strongest possible term, and the reason why I have no apologies (save for the names edited) for the language I used in my first post in this thread.

Zikkyy:

This learning process, how long does it take? one month? one year? or a life time? i know some tithers will tithe till they hit the grave meaning they will never truly become like Christ.

The point he is trying to make is that not everyone is quick to respond to the voice of the Spirit. It's takes a learning process actually.Have you ever given your whole salary to the church?

Ihedinobi:
The apostles and our Lord Himself all taught out of the books written under the Old Covenant.

True. but they did not "teach" what was written in the old covenant.

Enigma: Now, a few of the somewhat more "antagonistic" points:

1. AFAIK, most people challenging the modern teaching of "tithing" do not argue that a knowledgeable person who chooses to "tithe" is not free to do so or necessarily should not do so.
2. The challenge is not to "tithing" per se but to the teaching of tithing ---- especially as an obligation for a Christian. The teaching is simply not true and cannot truly be supported biblically!
3. The teaching results in contradicting and undermining the teachings of Jesus Christ and of the apostles. Imagine a person who refuses to hand over his "tithe money" to a poor family whose child needs an operation because s/he "must" drop the "tithe" in "church"! Does that square with what Jesus and the apostles taught or stood for?
4. The teaching puts people in bondage of fear, makes them subjects of superstition and scared even of their own shadows! Imagine people saying that if they don't drop their tithe in a particular month, all kinds of bad things will likely happen to them!
5. (My most controversial perhaps): The teaching helps to advance the cause of satan. Many of the "churches" that are mushrooming and so-called 'wo/men of God' tack on to the teaching primarily for "business" reasons and to put it bluntly to line their own pockets by defrauding people!
6. The teaching spawns a lot of other related teachings that are clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ; e.g. the "sowing and reaping" or "give to get" teaching that is now rampant. I once saw live and direct in person with my own two eyes a, maybe the, leading Nigerian "GO" agree with an American huckster that "giving to the poor" is sowing on bad ground because "the anointing into which you sow determines the size of your harvest" --- corrupting a parabolic teaching of Jesus Christ.
7. The teaching of course also helps the cause of private jet "pastors" defrauding unwitting people that jets are necessary for "ministry"! Na so!

I can go on and on and on --- but you get the gist.

Our duty is to be honest with our handling of Scripture and not be scared that "people will not give voluntarily" etc etc.

Our duty is to trust the Lord who has given people renewed hearts to lead them and to cleanse their own volition such that voluntarily and out of gratitude they will be willing givers --- even if its out of their own meagre resources.

Even leaving out the hucksters and turning to people who "honestly" believe that tithing is still "necessary", part of the problem is the structural pattern(s) we have adopted --- e.g.building huge edifices and apparatuses that have to be maintained etc etc etc

Yeah you write it like it is in nigeria and like i hear it here in my country when they see what christian life means, not giving to the big so called great man of god, giving to the poor the people near you, the little child who has no parents, and i can tell you you will put a smil on such a child and that is what jesus want from us not feed this rich pasors and daddy go#s and what names they all have.

Ihedinobi:
The spiritual principle of the tithe is this: nobody who serves spiritually may lack and no poor among the brethren must be neglected.

Don't quite agree here. Like i stated earlier, it goes beyond serving spiritually. If you consider the fact that OT prophets did not benefit from tithe. Benefit accrue only to a particular tribe.

Ihedinobi:
It is in Christian nature to do so. It is not merely some law that Christians need to follow to prove their worthiness in some way to God. It is just normal to Christ to ensure that those who have given their lives to the Ministry of the Word and to Prayer do not lack and that the poor in our midst do not go hungry.

If to that end we choose to give 65% of our income or 10% or 2% or 99%, that's entirely our problem. Everyone must give according to what they have and cheerfully. Any giver like Ananias and Sapphira is already under judgment.

Grace be with all God's children.

THE END

Thank you.

@Bidam, my very dear brother, some things are better ignored.

@DrummaBoy, I'm not fond of war among brethren.

@Candour, the Lord bless you too, my brother.

@Enigma, big bro, thank you. You are outlining it quite clearly. There is a great deal of abuse in the things of Christ in our days. My worry is how easily that abuse results in our throwing out wholesale the good things themselves that are being abused. But thank God for insight like yours, it's invaluable.

@Zikkyy, you should probably take a breather, bro. Take a step back and read everything I wrote as a whole document, then we'll see if we have something real to discuss.

@Logicboy, I'm sorry you feel so weary. Battle does that to every mortal. And no battle wearies one more than the one that simply can't be won.

@aManfromMars, thanks for dropping by, bro.

@Rey, hi

Bidam:
The point he is trying to make is that not everyone is quick to respond to the voice of the Spirit. It's takes a learning process actually.

We are saying he same thing. my understanding of his post is that people still need the law written on stone as guide. i.e. they need it to understand how to listen to their heart. My question is how long does it take before they start listening to their heart?

Bidam:
Have you ever given your whole salary to the church?

They did not ask for it. i respond to needs, i don't drop just like that. besides i get plenty responsibilities, so i need to share.

Ihedinobi: ...

@Enigma, big bro, thank you. You are outlining it quite clearly. There is a great deal of abuse in the things of Christ in our days. My worry is how easily that abuse results in our throwing out wholesale the good things themselves that are being abused. But thank God for insight like yours, it's invaluable.....

Ihe bros

It's always a pleasure to participate in good natured and good spirited threads like these amidst all the madness in the forum and considering the imbroglios I often allow myself to get roped into. Trust you are doing well, bro.

For insight, permit me to copy from two old threads of mine.

A. "Who is a tither"? https://www.nairaland.com/744234/please-vote-tither#msg9003450

B. "Who is robbing God?" https://www.nairaland.com/747403/another-poll-robbing-god


Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)

1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".

2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".

3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".

Ihedinobi:
@Zikkyy, you should probably take a breather, bro. Take a step back and read everything I wrote as a whole document, then we'll see if we have something real to discuss.

I did not plan on turning the thread to one where people end up fighting (the reason am not saying much) and i am not expecting response to my questions. just something for you to think about.

Overall, i think it was still a good write-up.

foreignstudy:

Yeah you write it like it is in nigeria and like i hear it here in my country when they see what christian life means, not giving to the big so called great man of god, giving to the poor the people near you, the little child who has no parents, and i can tell you you will put a smil on such a child and that is what jesus want from us not feed this rich pasors and daddy go#s and what names they all have.

Bros thanks, I pray people learn to be truly Christ-like than being overly blinded by material desires!

Enigma:
For insight, permit me to copy from two old threads of mine.

A. "Who is a tither"? https://www.nairaland.com/744234/please-vote-tither#msg9003450

B. "Who is robbing God?" https://www.nairaland.com/747403/another-poll-robbing-god

Bros you still dey market this ya threads. You go need to hire a marketing agency o!

^^^

Make you siddon dey look!

Enigma:

Ihe bros

It's always a pleasure to participate in good natured and good spirited threads like these amidst all the madness in the forum and considering the imbroglios I often allow myself to get roped into. Trust you are doing well, bro.

For insight, permit me to copy from two old threads of mine.

A. "Who is a tither"? https://www.nairaland.com/744234/please-vote-tither#msg9003450

B. "Who is robbing God?" https://www.nairaland.com/747403/another-poll-robbing-god


Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)

1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".

2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".

3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".

in line with this post by Enigma, let me relate a small story that helped me greatly in my search for the truth about tithing. A colleague told me he painted the scenario to his pastor when they were discussing about tithes in sunday school.

He told the pastor to assume his(the pastor) wife was pregnant and was rushed in to surgery on Saturday night. The hospital demanded an upfront fee of 100,000 naira before they would commence surgery. Pastor now rushes to brother M's house being close to the clinic to borrow money and brother M explains he doesn't have any personal money at home. Before the pastor could gather the money from other sources and rush back to Hospital, the wife was dead. Then this same brother who had no money to give pastor dances to the altar on Sunday morning to pay his tithe of a little above 100,000 naira cash.

The brother said he asked the pastor what he'll do? the pastor couldn't answer him in front of the congregation. instead, he asked for a private meeting in his office and when he got there, the pastor told brother M that if it ever happened like that, he(the pastor) will never forgive brother M. Pastor admitted he couldn't say that in open church so as not to discourage tithers.

This story actually got me thinking about how love can be absent when you want to keep the law as they are meant to be kept because i believed i would have done exactly as the brother in the story with my understanding then.

^

Lemme be warming up at the side lines, getting ready to enter the field...according to your story above.

@Ihedinobi,
I was surprised when I saw a thread raised by you on tithing and I even thought it was an old thread but was surprised to see it is so recent.
You captured your thoughts beautifully and deeply and at the end of the day you still passed your message accross the same way you had always done just with a different approach.
You captured both extremes to the belief systems and presented a deep finish.

Ihedinobi: The Cross took us to the meaning, the point, the root of the laws of Moses. It tore off the veil that blinded us to the spiritual side of the Law. It told us that the Sabbath was not merely some day of the week, nor was the sacrifice merely some physically-perfect animal nor was the Temple of God merely an affair of stones and pearls. It insisted that there was more to all that stuff than literally met the eye and demanded that we deal with those deeper realities.

Every precept in the Old Covenant was a demonstration of some principle. It wasn't as important that one followed the formula exactly as it was that one understood the formula. When we look at the Old Covenant, our questions should be why not always how.

This quote of yours was simply what the scripture shared when it said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk in Christ and also grace and truth came through Jesus. There is more to what meets the eye of the law by the deeper realities of it. It is not about the how but the why that explains many precepts. I also loved where you quoted that a teacher well-taught or established in the ways of the Kingdom will bring out of his storeroom treasures new and old
There are lots of times you ruminate over a thing and bam! you just get a word of a phrase that takes you to the deeper meaning of a precept in the OT and at that point you understand the truth of it.
Even the blessings in the OT were often related to barns, crops, rains, availability of food, enlargement of coast, fruitfulness of the vine which we all find easy to apply its righteous intent to our current world to mean abundance. Yet to apply other precepts seems like an issue.

On your other quotes i had often said it that as Christians we are channels of God's abundance. So much so that even Paul said there is a grace in giving...(2 Cor. 8:7) and giving with joy. There was a time I was talking with someone who miraculously got a gift of money which she was so thankful it came in time and someone else had a need and made a request and this person started saying that even the gift was not enough for her talk less of giving to someone else and I advised that what if you never got the gift? Just like the story of the person who the king forgave a lot of debt but held unto the debt of someone who owed him little. It is not the same in this case but the point was noted. When God blesses us, it is not for us to hoard but to give as well. When the bible quoted II Cor. 9:7, it had earlier quoted verse 6 about God not being mocked. Those two verses go hand in hand irrespective of what you let go from your finances, God is not mocked as to how much and why we give and He still has His rewards.

Ihedinobi: Any giver like Ananias and Sapphira is already under judgment.

When we read this story, alot of times we do not ask ourselves why Ananias and Saphira held back some part of their proceeds. It was never a law to give all their proceeds as they still had power over it. Besides, they would share with everyone so all enjoys but the heart and motive of their act plus the lie culmulated in leading them to their untimely deaths. Probably they felt why give all what they worked for to some who have not given as much as they did or why allow others eat of their sweat. Even people say that about the poor today that why can't they go and work and earn. But as the bible says, God is not mocked.

In conclusion, the principle of the function you gave of tithe is still that even till today and this Jesus implied as weigthy but balanced it with other weighthier aspects of mercy and justice and Paul also proved this intent in I Cor. 9 but to be able to abound in the grace of giving we must first be sold out to the Lord before we can truly even give to others:

II Cor. 8:5
We did not expect that! They gave themselves to the Lord first and then to us, since this was God's will.


Thanks @Ihedinobi for this message. It was well thought out and captured.

Candour:

in line with this post by Enigma, let me relate a small story that helped me greatly in my search for the truth about tithing. A colleague told me he painted the scenario to his pastor when they were discussing about tithes in sunday school.

He told the pastor to assume his(the pastor) wife was pregnant and was rushed in to surgery on Saturday night. The hospital demanded an upfront fee of 100,000 naira before they would commence surgery. Pastor now rushes to brother M's house being close to the clinic to borrow money and brother M explains he doesn't have any personal money at home. Before the pastor could gather the money from other sources and rush back to Hospital, the wife was dead. Then this same brother who had no money to give pastor dances to the altar on Sunday morning to pay his tithe of a little above 100,000 naira cash.

The brother said he asked the pastor what he'll do? the pastor couldn't answer him in front of the congregation. instead, he asked for a private meeting in his office and when he got there, the pastor told brother M that if it ever happened like that, he(the pastor) will never forgive brother M. Pastor admitted he couldn't say that in open church so as not to discourage tithers.

This story actually got me thinking about how love can be absent when you want to keep the law as they are meant to be kept because i believed i would have done exactly as the brother in the story with my understanding then.

Well the scenario you painted is not the church i know and other churches i have been opportuned to go to,By the grace of God i can boldly say in this forum that it is the church that has been overburdened with needs of people,It's on record that most people hardly give tithes and offerings in churches, it is when they feel like it.Yet the church has always been there for the members. i know of a church that has 100 members yet when a member came for a C&S operation,the church gladly gave the couple 170,000 naira for it. Nobody sees all these and the church doesn't hype it in media houses. Yet when it comes to the negative aspect you see believers joining hands with unbelievers to condemn churches.This ought not to be so.

It's even in the UK that people don't bother coming to church but send their tithes by post because government has made it easier to cut their taxes since they see the church as a charity organization.So you can imagine it's because of taxes folks pay tithes, not because a pastor says so.

Well thank God in Nigeria, God has blessed the church and people give willingly without any compulsion whatsoever,it is such a shame really that it is only on the net people over-blow this to high proportions,all because they see ministers getting private jets and so on.

There are things that goes on in life and nobody says anything about it but when it comes to church issues you see all hell break loose.Take for instance MTN, nobody says it makes billions of dollars in Nigerian telecom sector.These guys have not given back to the community enough in terms of their social responsibility,yet nobody talks about it.The natural human person cannot even think that MTN is just out for the money and nothing else.

Here in Nigeria it's not up to 5 pastors that owns private jets,but it is on record that when the late saraki of ilorin died over 40 private jets landed in ilorin,and some of these jets where owned by imams.Where did imams get money to buy private jets? Is it not our tax payers money? Nobody is complaining about these things.

I know of bank executives who owns private jets using OPM(others people money) and people still see it as normal.Why is it that it's concerning the church you see most of these complains,arguments,negative criticism and rantings God will help his church.Amen.

@Alwaystrue, beloved sister, thank you for stopping by. It's really good to have you here. And thank you for your gracious words, you are very kind. I'm also very pleased that we are agreeing together. Thank God for His mercies.

Ihedinobi: My two friends are right that we are not obliged to give exactly ten percent of every new wealth we make. My other friend is right that we must set something aside in every new wealth we make to benefit those who serve us spiritually and the poor in our local assembly.

Strictly speaking, there is no requirement or description of such practice in the NT. All that is stated is collections for identified needs (whether given from new wealth or old wealth, or out of one's poverty for that matter), not necessarily regular setting aside in 'every new wealth'. We are instructed to support those who serve us spiritually, but this does not have to be regular, nor from every 'new wealth'.

The key - as you mentioned - is to be led by the Holy Spirit in this area, as with all the others.

It is just normal to Christ to ensure that those who have given their lives to the Ministry of the Word and to Prayer do not lack and that the poor in our midst do not go hungry.

I agree - however, one could argue that following the 'higher way' of Paul who supported himself for the most part is more desirable - that is, those who are able to support themselves (preachers or otherwise) should do so - leaving any giving focused on meeting the needs of those unable to meet their own needs.

If to that end we choose to give 65% of our income or 10% or 2% or 99%, that's entirely our problem. Everyone must give according to what they have and cheerfully. Any giver like Ananias and Sapphira is already under judgment.

Grace be with all God's children.

Amen!

Bidam: ....
It's even in the UK that people don't bother coming to church but send their tithes by post because government has made it easier to cut their taxes since they see the church as a charity organization.So you can imagine it's because of taxes folks pay tithes, not because a pastor says so.....

Bidam bros

What you have above is false information, I'm afraid!

The scheme here is called Giftaid and does not really affect the tax of the "tither" or the "giver" himself.

Rather if a person gives a Church money and the person is a taxpayer who has already paid tax on his income/salary, the govt gives an extra amount to the Church. This takes nothing whatsoever away from the giver/tither or adds anything for him. The benefit is entirely for the Church (or charitable organisation).

Crude example:

Bidam is a taxpayer at 15%.

Bidam gives 100 pounds to DLB Ministry. (edited)

Bidam and DLB Ministry tell the government that the money should be subject to Giftaid

The government will pay an extra 15 pounds to DLB Ministry

DLB Ministry gains an extra 15%

Bidam gains or loses nothing in tax whether or not he pays tithes or makes the gift to DLB Ministry!

@Ihedinobi, I like the heart behind the message really. Weldone.

@debosky, I like the balance you often bring to things. Infact I would have loved to vote you as a MOD as you seem to even 'moderate' even in threads...
I just wanted to bring to your notice that in the strictest sense without requirement Paul actually spoke something to what Ihedinobi said in Galatians 6:6 and I Corinthian 9:11. I also know ministers of teh gospel that preach and do secular work or business without touching any of the church finances and they are a lot just like Paul. Even though Paul took wages at a point from other churches. But in all we should do things without blame or bringing the gospel to disrepute.
Thanks.

Enigma:

Bidam bros

What you have above is false information, I'm afraid!

The scheme here is called Giftaid and does not really affect the tax of the "tither" or the "giver" himself.

Rather if a person gives a Church money and the person is a taxpayer who has already paid tax on his income/salary, the govt gives an extra amount to the Church. This takes nothing whatsoever away from the giver/tither or adds anything for him. The benefit is entirely for the Church (or charitable organisation).

Ok,the point is people give for charity works which does not affect their income not because a pastors says to do so or the word of God says so but because there is a giftaid scheme(which is their reward on earth really).

My brother, the point is Nigeria is a blessed country.

Enigma:
The scheme here is called Giftaid and does not really affect the tax of the "tither" or the "giver" himself

Rather if a person gives a Church money and the person is a taxpayer who has already paid tax on his income/salary, the govt gives an extra amount to the Church. This takes nothing whatsoever away from the giver/tither or adds anything for him. The benefit is entirely for the Church (or charitable organisation).

Crude example:

Bidam is a taxpayer at 15%.

Bidam gives 100 pounds to DLB Ministry. (edited)

Bidam and DLB Ministry tell the government that the money should be subject to Giftaid

The government will pay an extra 15 pounds to DLB Ministry

DLB Ministry gains an extra 15%

Bidam gains or loses nothing in tax whether or not he pays tithes or makes the gift to DLB Ministry!

A brief addition elder brother.

Your above analogy applies in most cases, but if you are a higher rate tax payer, you can claim back some of your tax from the government if you choose to do so. Most people don't, so as you said, there is no benefit for those who give - their giving to the organisation simply increases.

For example, if you donate £100, the total value of your donation to the charity is £125 - so you can claim back:
£25 - if you pay tax at 40 per cent (£125 × 20%)
£31.25 - if you pay tax at 45 per cent (£125 × 20%) plus (£125 × 5%)

But note, even where you do decide to claim tax back, you've still given more than you've claimed back.

In the 45% case, you've given £100 but claimed back £31.25, means you've still given £68.65 - you are not better off financially by giving, even with giftaid (EDITED)

debosky:

A brief addition elder brother.

Your above analogy applies in most cases, but if you are a higher rate tax payer, you can claim back some of your tax from the government if you choose to do so. Most people don't, so as you say, there is usually no benefit for those who give - their giving to the organisation simply increases.

For example, if you donate £100, the total value of your donation to the charity is £125 - so you can claim back:
£25 - if you pay tax at 40 per cent (£125 × 20%)
£31.25 - if you pay tax at 45 per cent (£125 × 20%) plus (£125 × 5%)

Thanks for putting it in the right context.

Bidam:
.....By the grace of God i can boldly say in this forum that it is the church that has been overburdened with needs of people,.....

That's the expectation.

Bidam:
There are things that goes on in life and nobody says anything about it but when it comes to church issues you see all hell break loose.Take for instance MTN, nobody says it makes billions of dollars in Nigerian telecom sector.These guys have not given back to the community enough in terms of their social responsibility,yet nobody talks about it.The natural human person cannot even think that MTN is just out for the money and nothing else.

Here in Nigeria it's not up to 5 pastors that owns private jets,but it is on record that when the late saraki of ilorin died over 40 private jets landed in ilorin,and some of these jets where owned by imams.Where did imams get money to buy private jets? Is it not our tax payers money? Nobody is complaining about these things.

I know of bank executives who owns private jets using OPM(others people money) and people still see it as normal.Why is it that it's concerning the church you see most of these complains,arguments,negative criticism and rantings

The post above reflects your understanding of the role of the church in society. Well i won't say am disappointed or surprised, cos majority of churchgoers are there to solve issues and not because they truly love God. The same reason some "Christians" are motivated by external laws (written on stone) to do good.

Now you are comparing the church with MTN and bankers. If every other person is stealing should the church also participate? The Church (not MTN or bankers) is the moral custodian of the society. The sad bit is that it is already losing it's ability to influence and is instead being influenced by society (partly because we have people like you in church). Issues of morality is gradually being abandoned for crass materialism.

In a morally bankrupt society like the one you and i live in, if we lose the church we've lost everything. Bidam we have every reason to shout/criticize when we see that the church is losing it's purpose.

Bidam: Ok,the point is people give for charity works which does not affect their income not because a pastors says to do so or the word of God says so but because there is a giftaid scheme(which is their reward on earth really).

No - you still don't understand. Giftaid is simply a way to encourage people to give to charities and in majority of cases doesn't benefit the giver. It does affect their income because the money given to charities is taken from their incomes - the only difference is that the money they've paid in tax isn't lost to the government, but is instead directed to the charity. The giftaid money doesn't go to the individual, it goes to the charity or church. unless of course the individual is a higher rate payer and chooses to reclaim tax.

Even in the situation where the individual reclaims some tax, he is still giving more than he is getting back in tax - at least 2/3rds the amount.

The individual would have more money in his/her pocket if he/she didn't give than if he/she gave and claimed back tax.

Zikkyy:
Now you are comparing the church with MTN and bankers. If every other person is stealing should the church also participate? The Church (not MTN or bankers) is the moral custodian of the society. The sad bit is that it is already losing it's ability to influence and is instead being influenced by society (partly because we have people like you in church). Issues of morality is gradually being abandoned for crass materialism.

Can you imagine? Comparing a church to a business set up to make profit as its motive? Are churches set up as profit making entities now?

debosky:

A brief addition elder brother.

Your above analogy applies in most cases, but if you are a higher rate tax payer, you can claim back some of your tax from the government if you choose to do so. Most people don't, so as you say, there is usually no benefit for those who give - their giving to the organisation simply increases.

For example, if you donate £100, the total value of your donation to the charity is £125 - so you can claim back:
£25 - if you pay tax at 40 per cent (£125 × 20%)
£31.25 - if you pay tax at 45 per cent (£125 × 20%) plus (£125 × 5%)

Actually, you are right albeit also perhaps it could be more clearly explained still.

The higher rate tax payer (not every taxpayer) can claim some amount back on the charitable giving but not the total amount. Say he pays tax at 45%; he gives 100 pounds to charity on Giftaid; the charity gets an extra 20% (basic rate) and the higher rate taxpayer can then claim back the difference between 45% and 20% on the 100 pounds.

Could you please do that Maths for me?

And sorry (to Bidam especially), I should have mentioned that. However, in practice and in terms of church giving, I will say that the proportion of people who make this claim back is very small.

Firstly, the traditional churches here: Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists etc do not preach tithing. So, any claim back will be done on the basis of offerings and donations. Thus, the scheme does not really encourage people to "tithe" as such as claimed by Bidam.

Second, it is usually African and some Oyibo Pentecostal Churches that preach tithing and I will argue that the proportion of people claiming back on tithes even in those are small; I will also argue that the proportion of people paying tithes because of that is small.




EDIT debosky bros, I posted without the benefit of your edit and subsequent posts but I still wonder if your calculations do not need to be revised i.e. what taxpayer can claim back is difference between higher rate and basic rate?

@debosky

Sorry, I've looked at your Maths again and I think it is correct.

Let's just say I am not fully awake yet (literally)!