Enigma: @debosky

Sorry, I've looked at your Maths again and I think it is correct.

Let's just say I am not fully awake yet (literally)!

^^^ stop trying to use ya brain. go buy calculator jor

Yessur, bros!

Happy Debo, Enigma & Zikkyy have answered Bidam's post to mine. The church where the Sunday school took place is an Assemblies of God church.

Until Christians realise that the Church is not just another business, we'll keep falling short in our obligation to be light and salt to the world. I am still in love with a DLBC tract title I believe should be every believer's motto 'others may, I cannot' . Others may steal, I cannot, others may embezzle, I cannot, others may abuse, curse but I cannot because I'm a child of God. If politicians don't steal, I would be surprised.

The Church should be the model by which the world should run their affairs and I dare say; they are learning corruption and impunity very well from the church of today. With the mentality of most Christians nowadays, the Lord had better come quickly otherwise the world will sink under the weight of corruption emanating from Church and the world.

God help us all indeed.

debosky:

Strictly speaking, there is no requirement or description of such practice in the NT. All that is stated is collections for identified needs (whether given from new wealth or old wealth, or out of one's poverty for that matter), not necessarily regular setting aside in 'every new wealth'. We are instructed to support those who serve us spiritually, but this does not have to be regular, nor from every 'new wealth'.

The key - as you mentioned - is to be led by the Holy Spirit in this area, as with all the others.



I agree - however, one could argue that following the 'higher way' of Paul who supported himself for the most part is more desirable - that is, those who are able to support themselves (preachers or otherwise) should do so - leaving any giving focused on meeting the needs of those unable to meet their own needs.

I'd rather we pursue this on another thread. Please come with me to https://www.nairaland.com/1344987/ministers-pay

Zikkyy:

That's the expectation.



The post above reflects your understanding of the role of the church in society. Well i won't say am disappointed or surprised, cos majority of churchgoers are there to solve issues and not because they truly love God. The same reason some "Christians" are motivated by external laws (written on stone) to do good.

Now you are comparing the church with MTN and bankers. If every other person is stealing should the church also participate? The Church (not MTN or bankers) is the moral custodian of the society. The sad bit is that it is already losing it's ability to influence and is instead being influenced by society (partly because we have people like you in church). Issues of morality is gradually being abandoned for crass materialism.

In a morally bankrupt society like the one you and i live in, if we lose the church we've lost everything. Bidam we have every reason to shout/criticize when we see that the church is losing it's purpose.

It is no surprise that you will take my words and twists it to mean what it never said.Remember i started by saying the church is a charitable organization.And despite that God has blessed and prosper the church in all aspect both spiritual and materially.You can go ahead and talk from both sides of your mouth and infer that i don't love God and i see the church as a profit making venture.Your insults is not lost on me.Anyway the joke is on you and your unbelieving friends who see the church as a business venture,rather than a place of succour,spiritual development and nourishment hence the comparison i made. And it is because of this myopic and demonic view of yours that makes it difficult for them to enter the kingdom of God because you hinder them from seeing the true light of the gospel.The gospel of Christ is not about poverty.Cheers.

debosky:

Can you imagine? Comparing a church to a business set up to make profit as its motive? Are churches set up as profit making entities now?

Did you borrow zikky's brain? Pls go through my post with a clear conscience.I even mentioned imams which zikky never quoted.

This is a logical fallacy there was no where in my post the i say the church is a profit entity.My conscience is clear.May God forgive you guys for this blatant lies.

debosky:

No - you still don't understand. Giftaid is simply a way to encourage people to give to charities and in majority of cases doesn't benefit the giver. It does affect their income because the money given to charities is taken from their incomes - the only difference is that the money they've paid in tax isn't lost to the government, but is instead directed to the charity. The giftaid money doesn't go to the individual, it goes to the charity or church. unless of course the individual is a higher rate payer and chooses to reclaim tax.

Even in the situation where the individual reclaims some tax, he is still giving more than he is getting back in tax - at least 2/3rds the amount.

The individual would have more money in his/her pocket if he/she didn't give than if he/she gave and claimed back tax.

That is correct. But I don’t think it defeats his larger point, which is that the Nigerian giver is giving more than the UK giver. In your example, the UK giver would be better off financially if he did not give; so, his motivation cannot all be about tax benefits – a point with which I agree. But the UK giver still gets some money back. The Nigerian giver gets nothing back from the government, and so is giving much more than the UK giver. Put differently, the Nigerian giver would keep more money in his pocket if he did not give at all than the UK giver would, which is the central point our beloved brother was making. [I didn’t want to bore with the math, but would be happy to do so if anybody wants it]. Also, I don’t know much about the UK, but I believe a lot of people in the U.S. take the tax deductions for charitable giving. That’s why it’s been difficult for President Obama or previous leaders to eliminate or reform it, with people complaining that universities and other institutions (Red Cross, etc) that depend on such giving would suffer greatly if a portion of the giving is not tax-deductible.

Bidam: Here in Nigeria it's not up to 5 pastors that owns private jets,but it is on record that when the late saraki of ilorin died over 40 private jets landed in ilorin,and some of these jets where owned by imams.Where did imams get money to buy private jets? Is it not our tax payers money? Nobody is complaining about these things.

I know of bank executives who owns private jets using OPM(others people money) and people still see it as normal.Why is it that it's concerning the church you see most of these complains,arguments,negative criticism and rantings God will help his church.Amen.

I concur that the tithe issue is blown out of proportion. Granted, there are abuses but the critics go overboard – attributing to tithe collection the level of ‘evil’ powers it does not have. To put it in context, there are probably 100-200 pastors in Nigeria that are really rich. The rest (thousands) struggle even though they preach and collect tithes. I have a number of friends and relatives in ministry and I don’t see the wealth. A cousin of mine, after pastoring for about ten years, with a church that grew to several hundreds, and visiting the U.S. many times to preach, still had to depend on the aunt to send him money to renew his rent in Lagos. To people outside, he’s making it, but we knew the fuller story. A friend of mine is building a large auditorium in the Southwest of Nigeria, which has gulped tens of millions of Naira. He took me to his house recently. It was quite decent. Nothing rich or opulent, and I’m being charitable here. Frankly, it’ll take the grace of God for me to be able to sleep there for even one night. Nigerian churches here in the U.S. also preach tithes. But hardly any of them is quite rich. While some of the pastors are not necessarily poor, I know none of their pastors that lives large. I basically stopped wearing suits to church because the church doesn’t seem to have enough money to move to a more spacious accommodation yet or maintain a comfortable air-conditioning system. Interestingly, I heard last month that a friend in the U.S. closed a church he opened here, choosing to minister as an evangelist. Either he was not getting enough tithes or money could not keep him?

I can speak from my country, when you belong to a church you pay church tax that is about 1,1% of what you earn in one year with this money the church pay the pastors and the priest in my country and they have to show this to the goverment, so that it is clear what they make with the money.

When the church make something with charity than they have to show what the make with the money and it is not possible that the pastor keep the money for him because when this happen he will go to jail.

I live in a country where the people give much for charity projekts because they know it will help, if this is red cros, or charitas, or SOS childvillage, or for the AIDS charity, or for people in the own country who need help.

Yeah when you help you have to pay less tax but you will never get back this from the goverment what you give with your free will to people they need it.

Bidam:
It is no surprise that you will take my words and twists it to mean what it never said.

so what were you trying to achieve comparing the church to MTN

Bidam:
You can go ahead and talk from both sides of your mouth and infer that i don't love God and i see the church as a profit making venture.

Both sides ke don't blame me jor, blame your posts.

Bidam:
.....And it is because of this myopic and demonic view of yours..........

am demonic na abi don't see why you should blame me for your blunder abeg.

As for any arguments about what a minister of the Gospel is entitled to, I'll be available at the link I invited desbosky to. Here I will emphasize simply that regardless what percentage each believer might favor, every believer is "obliged" to provide for those who serve them spiritually and the poor brethren.

By "obliged" I mean that that is what is normal to a believer to do. It is an anomaly to find any believer who would not open his hands to these two groups of people.

By poor brethren I mean such believers as suffer lack. This does not include some random beggar or orphanage or needy people of all kinds. This is strictly family amd particularly local family. In the very gathering where we worship we are first responsible for the poor there before any other poor. A man who cannot look after his own home cannot truly do anyone else any good.

That is the right, proper and Scriptural thing to do. Whether one would give half of one per cent or one would give 99%, nobody in the local assembly of brethren where a given believer may.be found should lack for any good thing that such a believer can provide.

Should this provision be made available regularly or out of new wealth? I'm not going to split hairs there. I will point to 1 Corinthians 16 as an example of such a practice. Whatever else might be said about that practice, this cannot.be denied: it was a very sensible practice and quite reminiscent of the practice of the tithing of old.

nlMediator:
I concur that the tithe issue is blown out of proportion. Granted, there are abuses but the critics go overboard – attributing to tithe collection the level of ‘evil’ powers it does not have.

blame it on the pastors/preachers/teachers of tithe. its due to the level of attention given to the preaching and collection. i want to believe tithe was not an issue in Nigeria 30 years ago, so why the sudden craze for tithe collection?

nlMediator:
To put it in context, there are probably 100-200 pastors in Nigeria that are really rich. The rest (thousands) struggle even though they preach and collect tithes.

@bolded, It has to do with the 'quality' and 'size' (of congregation).

nlMediator:
Nigerian churches here in the U.S. also preach tithes. But hardly any of them is quite rich.

Maybe they are remitting to HQ (located somewhere in Lagos )

nlMediator:
Interestingly, I heard last month that a friend in the U.S. closed a church he opened here, choosing to minister as an evangelist.

Lol @bolded, you made it sound like it was a shop he opened

nlMediator:
Either he was not getting enough tithes or money could not keep him?

Don't think you can separate the two. they go together

Ihedinobi:
Here I will emphasize simply that regardless what percentage each believer might favor, every believer is "obliged" to provide for those who serve them spiritually and the poor brethren.

No wahala.

nlMediator:
Interestingly, I heard last month that a friend in the U.S. closed a church he opened here, choosing to minister as an evangelist

What is with the church of Adeboye in America, they are not rich, he want to build an University in Texas, for what, when there are so many universities in america who fight for students and he will build a new one, from which people comes the money.

I know that all the Penecostal churches in America, there followers belong to the poor group in america, so why he has so much money to make this when the churchbusiness is so bad in America.

I hear from a good friend when you can speak and you have no work than start a church, the best and the fastest growin business in nigeria.

Ihedinobi: As for any arguments about what a minister of the Gospel is entitled to, I'll be available at the link I invited desbosky to. Here I will emphasize simply that regardless what percentage each believer might favor, every believer is "obliged" to provide for those who serve them spiritually and the poor brethren.

By "obliged" I mean that that is what is normal to a believer to do. It is an anomaly to find any believer who would not open his hands to these two groups of people.

By poor brethren I mean such believers as suffer lack. This does not include some random beggar or orphanage or needy people of all kinds. This is strictly family amd particularly local family. In the very gathering where we worship we are first responsible for the poor there before any other poor. A man who cannot look after his own home cannot truly do anyone else any good.

That is the right, proper and Scriptural thing to do. Whether one would give half of one per cent or one would give 99%, nobody in the local assembly of brethren where a given believer may.be found should lack for any good thing that such a believer can provide.

Should this provision be made available regularly or out of new wealth? I'm not going to split hairs there. I will point to 1 Corinthians 16 as an example of such a practice. Whatever else might be said about that practice, this cannot.be denied: it was a very sensible practice and quite reminiscent of the practice of the tithing of old.

I agree with the bolded. I can't imagine a Christian having extra and not willing to share with needy brethren when you consider 1John 3:17. My pastor should benefit from me too if he needs it. A pastor who is well off financially and still sees no moral wrong in collecting from less endowed members of his flock has stepped into greed and this class is the majority in Christianity today. Even Moses told the Isrealites to stop bringing materials for the tabernacle construction in the wilderness when they had enough (Ex 36:5-6). Why can't our pastors ever say enough even with all the flamboyant cars and Jets? Greed is the simple answer.

Christians should be encouraged to give to those who need it. Contributing 1 million naira to your pastor's birthday celebration is a misuse of the resources God has entrusted into your care when you have a member of that Church who could set himself up in business to feed himself with 100,000 naira from you. We should be prudent and God will surely use us to relieve our needy brethren of their financial difficulties.

The contributions Paul collected from gentile churches was primarily for needy members of the church in Jerusalem. read Acts 11:28-30. Pastors should share in our resources but not to the point of neglecting the other poor brethren in church.

Interesting.

Zikkyy:

blame it on the pastors/preachers/teachers of tithe. its due to the level of attention given to the preaching and collection. i want to believe tithe was not an issue in Nigeria 30 years ago, so why the sudden craze for tithe collection?



@bolded, It has to do with the 'quality' and 'size' (of congregation).



Maybe they are remitting to HQ (located somewhere in Lagos )



Lol @bolded, you made it sound like it was a shop he opened



Don't think you can separate the two. they go together

Oops, I posted a detailed response to you - or at least so I thought - but it looks like it never showed up. Oh well . . . .

Zikkyy:

so what were you trying to achieve comparing the church to MTN



Both sides ke don't blame me jor, blame your posts.



am demonic na abi don't see why you should blame me for your blunder abeg.

Thanks for the response,I am not offended.Others who read the post with an open heart know the points i made.

nora544:
I hear from a good friend when you can speak and you have no work than start a church, the best and the fastest growin business in nigeria.

Except you re into the occult i don't think you can start a church with the intention of making profits and think you are going to get something out of it.Try it and see.Nigerians are no fools,they are more smarter than you think.

Candour:

I agree with the bolded. I can't imagine a Christian having extra and not willing to share with needy brethren when you consider 1John 3:17. My pastor should benefit from me too if he needs it. A pastor who is well off financially and still sees no moral wrong in collecting from less endowed members of his flock has stepped into greed and this class is the majority in Christianity today. Even Moses told the Isrealites to stop bringing materials for the tabernacle construction in the wilderness when they had enough (Ex 36:5-6). Why can't our pastors ever say enough even with all the flamboyant cars and Jets? Greed is the simple answer.

Christians should be encouraged to give to those who need it. Contributing 1 million naira to your pastor's birthday celebration is a misuse of the resources God has entrusted into your care when you have a member of that Church who could set himself up in business to feed himself with 100,000 naira from you. We should be prudent and God will surely use us to relieve our needy brethren of their financial difficulties.

The contributions Paul collected from gentile churches was primarily for needy members of the church in Jerusalem. read Acts 11:28-30. Pastors should share in our resources but not to the point of neglecting the other poor brethren in church.

You love overblowing issues out of proportions, can you back your statements with facts?

Bidam: Except you re into the occult i don't think you can start a church with the intention of making profits and think you are going to get something out of it.Try it and see.Nigerians are no fools,they are more smarter than you think.

Bidam, people have been setting up "churches" with precisely the intention of making profits for a looong time. And not only in Nigeria! For an example in the USA go and read about the one time biggest televangelist - one Robert Tilton!

And in Nigeria, read about all the thieves asking people to "sow" in dollars because "God said so" (!) --- there is a particular video of one Nigerian thief like that duping people in Ghana with that one; it is on this Nairaland somewhere.

There is the example of another thief in London asking for a "passover" offering; I think most people can reasonably construe the "Passover Letter" below as having the intention of making profits.

"Passover Letter" direct link ----- http://www.ukwet.org/passoverletter.pdf

From https://www.nairaland.com/1437045/bishop-charlatan

Ilekokonit: I came across this letter from a Bishop on the internet and was left wondering if the man was actually a Bishop or a Charlatan.

UK WORLD EVANGELISM CHURCHES

2A Gosterwood Street Off Evelyn Street, Deptford. London SE8 5NX
Tel.: 0208 691 5175 Fax: 0208 694 5777 E-mail Address: simon@ukwet.org Website: www.ukwet.org


PASSOVER LETTER

My dear partner and friend, I made a pledge to the Lord to always share every revelation that I receive from Him
with you, so that your life may be built up and strengthened in your journey of faith. Jesus said, “You will know the
truth and the truth will set you free”.

The Lord showed me four years ago how to keep the memorial of the Passover in order to activate the covering of the Lord over my family and for deliverance from the works of darkness. I have experienced this miracle and have testified about it through my preaching.

The Lord inspired me to invite you to celebrate Passover with us. That is the reason why I am writing you this letter; all you have to do is;

1. Fill the enclosed form, stating the things you want God to do for you this year.

2. Enclose with it a Passover family miracle offering (£19, £29, £39, £59, £99 or any amount according to the size of your family). Deut.16:16-17.

Why not raise your faith to £99.00?

3.Post it back to me as soon as you can to put on the prayer altar of our church. I will be praying over these forms with other ministers presenting your request to God.

When I receive your reply I will be sending you a copy of the message I preached titled ‘Open Heavens’. If your offering is above £50, I will include a copy of the Passover family miracle message which I have preached in our service.

I will be sharing with you the revelations God has given me when we celebrate the Passover with our memorial offering.

Why do we ask for an offering as part of the celebration ?
It is because God asked that we should not approach the Passover altar with empty hands. Duet 16:16-17, 2 Chron. 20:20.

Hurry, do not delay while the angel is stirring the water. I look forward to receiving your form back.

Nothing shall be impossible with our God. Now this is your time.

This is your year of uncommon breakthrough, uncommon favour, a year of open heaven for those who honour the covenants of God. Your faith is based on your decision and action. ACT NOW
CLICK HERE TO PRINT OUT THE PASSOVER MIRACLE FORM

Your servant of God,

Bishop Simon Iheanacho
Overseer, UK World Evangelism Churches

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever”. Hebrews 13 vs. 8
CHARITY REG. NO 1057527

source :- http://www.ukwet.org/passoverletter.pdf

Enigma:

Bidam, people have been setting up "churches" with precisely the intention of making profits for a looong time. And not only in Nigeria! For an example in the USA go and read about the one time biggest televangelist - one Robert Tilton!

And in Nigeria, read about all the thieves asking people to "sow" in dollars because "God said so" (!) --- there is a particular video of one Nigerian thief like that duping people in Ghana with that one; it is on this Nairaland somewhere.

There is the example of another thief in London asking for a "passover" offering; I think most people can reasonably construe the "Passover Letter" below as having the intention of making profits.

"Passover Letter" direct link ----- http://www.ukwet.org/passoverletter.pdf

From https://www.nairaland.com/1437045/bishop-charlatan

Yeah..this is the extremism i am against. But arguing it won't solve the issue my brother.Na prayers. You think people can easily part with their hard earned cash without some demonic activity involved? There are actually very few genuine churches in the world today.The masses always go the wide gate principle.

I have found the video of the thief asking for "seeds" in dollars. At first I was reluctant to post the link to the thread because it was started by an atheist but that is the rebuke the rest of us deserve if we don't condemn such evil!

Anyway the reason that I am posting it is because even Image123* called the guy ---- a thief!


https://www.nairaland.com/889040/god-said-make-sure-give


*A very good but oft misunderstood poster even though I disagree with him on "tithing" of course.

Bidam: Yeah..this is the extremism i am against. But arguing it won't solve the issue my brother.Na prayers. You think people can easily part with their hard earned cash without some demonic activity involved? There are actually very few genuine churches in the world today.The masses always go the wide gate principle.

My brother Bidam, I really want to scream this to you because the situation is far worse than alarming!

People [size=14pt]ARE[/size] easily parting with their hard earned cash and even dignity (e.g. women allowing 'pastors' to sleep with them) on a daily basis and even this minute in that very Nigeria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People ARE being duped; Nigerians ARE being duped! Smart as you think they are, their own materialistic desires turn them to mumus and mugus ----- easily!

And if you think Nigerians are that "smart", go on the Internet and see Yahoo Yahoo people who were themselves yahooed into stripping and posing naked for photos and carrying ridiculous and demeaning posters.

Enigma:

My brother Bidam, I really want to scream this to you because the situation is far worse than alarming!

People [size=14pt]ARE[/size] easily parting with their hard earned cash and even dignity (e.g. women allowing 'pastors' to sleep with them) on a daily basis and even this minute in that very Nigeria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People ARE being duped; Nigerians ARE being duped! Smart as you think they are, their own materialistic desires turn them to mumus and mugus ----- easily!

And if you think Nigerians are that "smart", go on the Internet and see Yahoo Yahoo people who were themselves yahooed into stripping and posing naked for photos and carrying ridiculous and demeaning posters.

My brother that's the reason why we ought to watch and pray o,because you re christian doesn't mean you will be immuned from the attacks of the devil one way or the other.The people you portray here are either not true believers or they have falling away like demas.

But my argument is about balance in the things of the Spirit,Because the devil has hijacked this to preach materialism using his ministers does not negate the fact that God is not interested in true prosperity for his children.Selah.

nlMediator:
Oops, I posted a detailed response to you - or at least so I thought - but it looks like it never showed up. Oh well . . . .

Bidam:
.......The people you portray here are either not true believers or they have falling away like demas........

so you agree that some church people are not true believers, i said something similar and you called it demonic anyways am not offended

Bidam: You love overblowing issues out of proportions, can you back your statements with facts?

would i be wrong if i say you need comprehension classes? have you heard of hypothetical scenarios before? Did you read me say it was a live example?

You know i dont shy away from giving live examples if i have to.

My dear you talk too much sometimes. learn to exercise restraint.....none can quote your silence

Disappointing to say the least.

And somebody will tell me they don't force people to pay.

How will a weak Christian not rush to pay after reading this?

Where's Abraham's example in that write up? Tithing as practiced today in Nigeria is not of principles, Its of MOSAIC LAW

Candour: And somebody will tell me they don't force people to pay.

How will a weak Christian not rush to pay after reading this?

Where's Abraham's example in that write up? Tithing as practiced today in Nigeria is not of principles, Its of MOSAIC LAW

The crusade has started. Anyone or any thread where some ever mention people are not forced or threatened to tithe. This Adeboye case remain a landmark and we will pull it up as witness against them.

This is witchcraft in the pulpit!!!