Put "having or carrying something" in place of With in
that passage,and lets see what the context suggest....

@bolded,Thats why you find it to hard to believe..you are
still using human Logic to view the things of God..

Your human logic is still at work here...

Ask yourself, "why is
God allowing the devil to operate freely when He(GOD)
can End him with one Word?"
It didnt say the voice of the angel will raise the dead... God
will raise the dead...God laid out roles for angels for a
purpose...It doesnt mean that God cant operate without
them!!

Using your human logic,what is the work of an Mc in an
occassion?
So,if the couple who are about to wed are coming,they will
still announce it themselves whereas an Mc is in the House?

Try reading the bible with an open mind bro....

I dont know,so Jesus is now confusing his angels with his
personality too? He changes to Michael and then changes to
Jesus Christ?
Remember, it was an angel who identified Michael in
Daniel10:13 "The Prince of the Kingdom of Persia
withstood me for twenty-one days;but Michael,one of
the Chief Prince's came to help me,so i left him there
with the Prince of the Kingdom of Persia" ......
You are the one clearly confusing and misunderstanding
yourself... Angels knew who Jesus is,same way they Know
who Michael is... I clearly dont know where the
misconception is coming from!!

Really? My Mathew told me He condemned the Job
Pharisees there....Or is your own bible saying otherwise?
Why i referred you to that chapter is because Michael
"dared not" accuse,which Jesus did.........

Did you see me doubt this in any of my comments?
Put "having or carrying something" in place of With,lets
see how the passage will look like....

So how can Word accompanied by God be the same
persons.
That is why there are Three Persons in One God{God the
Father,God the Son and God The Holy Spirit}.....
Mathew28:19 "Go
therefore and make disciples of all nations,baptizing
them in the name Of the Father,and of the Son,and of
The Holy Spirit"
You simply cant comprehend it cuz its a Mystery yet to be
revealed to Man in its full context and comprehension....

I ask: can you be the same person you are with?
You have ended up answering the first question you asked
me......^^^Check the first quote up....
....

The Word "ARCHANGEL" was not used in the Book of
Revelation......I dont know the Chapter12 You are talking
about....
But The Revelation12 i know,mentioned the name of
Michael in verse7,and Mentioned the name of Jesus Christ
in verse17 differently and specifically.......You are the one
in Misconception here,not the Bible.......

edogho: yeah,everyone needs it.
I'm still wondering why you thought I didn't start from page 0,buh I don't expect you to answer since you made it clear that you want to avoid me and me question buh I just hope those reading would notice that I'm not new on this thread because I've discussed only briefly with Mr.Emusan.
Even if I had a gun and you continued pulling the trigger of your own gun(mouth I mean) I would'nt care because I don't think it will do me any good to condescend. I will be on this thread till no one posts (so don't get me twisred,)I'll be here when scoffers get screwed(as Obadiah would....em.....call zem) . I'll just do what I do best on NL,(watch scoffers get screwed)
STILL AS OBADIAH WOULD CALL TZEM(speaking your most revered ENGLISH LANGUAGE Japanese style in case you forgot.its not.even an African language)
TSANK YOU BROTZER(still Japanese style)

JMAN05:

Having an archangel's voice. This agrees with the context

JMANO5: I hope i am not speaking with a kid here? So you ve not read Jesus asking logical question before?

"It says the lord comes "with an archangel's voice".
Viewing this to mean that a voice was accompanying
Jesus, Is that not to say that Jesus' own voice cant
raise the dead , that it lacks command?

So your almighty Godman needs an angel to accompany him so as to raise the dead he promised to resurrect?

Will the MC anounce with the voice of the couples?

" Does it make sense to state that one who has authority
like Jesus would need an angel's voice to resurrect the
dead? Who is more powerful, Jesus or the angel?"

. The sincere mind will tell himself the truth.

To me I think [/b]John writes according to
what appears in his eyes, not that he doesnt know whom
the person is. [b]At chapter 12, Jesus appeared as an
archangel

He appeared as an archangel, that was why he didnt bother calling him Jesus

Now, you said that you saw Jesus in verse 10, and I agreed with you, but i now said that it was an angel that called that Jesus not John. Even the angel there did not see Jesus, he was just explaining to John why he shouldnt bow to him.

As for your question whether he changes to michael and then changes to Jesus cbrist. In revelation he even has some other descriptions apart from these two.

Pls pls pls, respond according to the issue being discussed so that i dont waste my time reminding you all agan.

Notice the word "something", not somebody. That second definition applies when we talk about something, while the second definition comes in when somebody/something accompanying something else.

JMANO5: 1. Of course archangel didnt appear there. That doenst change the truth that michael is that archangel

JMAN05:

Having an archangel's voice. This agrees with the context.



I hope i am not speaking with a kid here? So you ve not read Jesus asking logical question before? Nawah o! Do you want me to show you where Jesus used logic to reason with people? 'Overrighture'.



Oga dont run from my question. What you wrote below has no relation to it.

I repeat:

"It says the lord comes "with an archangel's voice".
Viewing this to mean that a voice was accompanying
Jesus, Is that not to say that Jesus' own voice cant
raise the dead , that it lacks command? In the future,
did Jesus say he will resurrect the dead with another
person's voice?"



God allowing satan has no relation to my question at all. God had a prophesy on when to destroy satan. Ur so called almighty Godman also said he will raise the dead in the future, not angels. John 5:28, 29.

So your almighy Godman needs an angel to accompany him so as to raise the dead he promised to resurrect?



Will the MC anounce with the voice of the couples?

Again. I see that as an attempt to boycott the question.

I repeat:

" Does it make sense to state that one who has authority
like Jesus would need an angel's voice to resurrect the
dead? Who is more powerful, Jesus or the angel?"



When I saw all your replies i planned to make that statement after my response. What you said above just describe what you do not me. Am happy others are reading all these. The sincere mind will tell himself the truth.

You are right, even my translation calls him Jesus in verse
10, however, the statement there is made by an angel
not John. John didnt call him Jesus, rather he was
describing him. To me I think John writes according to
what appears in his eyes, not that he doesnt know whom
the person is. At chapter 12, Jesus appeared as an
archangel , so he has to call him by that name.



Let me pretend and assume that you forgot the comment that resulted to that reply.

Read your comment:

"
Now,what am i saying here? John
stayed with Jesus throughout His
earthly Ministry,infact,he is the
"Beloved" ,that Jesus even had to
handover His Mother to him.....
Now tell me,how could[b] John see
Jesus[/b] and not recognise Jesus? How
could he see his master and call
him Michael? Is like you staying
with ur mum for years,and then
you travel,and when you come
back,you mistake your Mum for
your little sister...."

That was what you said, and i gave you Rev. 19 and asked why John didnt also call him Jesus in that chapter, rather he was only describing him. Does it also mean he didnt recognize him. I said all that just to prove to you that John is writing the revelation as it appears in his eyes. Not that he doesnt recognize him. At Rev 12 he appeared as an archangel, that was why he didnt bother calling him Jesus. Sometimes John is shown things he knew with symbols.

Now, you said that you saw Jesus in verse 10, and I agreed with you, but i now said that it was an angel that called that Jesus not John. Even the angel there did not see Jesus, he was just explaining to John why he shouldnt bow to him. After that, you jumped into saying:

" I dont know,so Jesus is now confusing his angels with his
personality too?"

How doest that question relate to my reply?

As for your question whether he changes to michael and then changes to Jesus cbrist. In revelation he even has some other descriptions apart from these two.

Pls pls pls, respond according to the issue being discussed so that i dont waste my time reminding you all agan.



Are you sure that is what your translation says? Consult it again and correct yourself.

Now. The scenario are totally different, as such i dont think it is a good analogy.

Jesus wasnt discussing with the devil. So i dnt think it's wise to compare it with a situation where Michael met the devil face to face. Even if we see such areas, that doesnt mean that a behavior in a certain circumstance cant change to a different one. Compare luke 4: 8-13.



Notice the word "something", not somebody. That second definition applies when we talk about something, while the second definition comes in when somebody/something accompanying something else.



So archangel's voice is in Jesus?

Ok, the identity of your God is a mystry. Until you get to know the almighty, the bible says you will miss alot. I know my God.



How?



1. Of course archangel didnt appear there. That doenst change the truth that michael is that archangel, cos the word appears in the singular. And he is the only one called archangel. Jude 9.

2. You right by saying that the chapter mentioned the name of Jesus and Michael separately. Of course, there is no contradiction. After satan is cast out, the kingdom has been established etc etc. however, note that the statement was made by an angel after the casting. It is a statement of joy as the devil is no longer in heaven etc, christ's authority and rulership has began.

How does this come into the point am making here?

I dont see how it conflicts with my point.

obadiah777: --

Mighty Sparrow: This kind of thread is and can only be given by JW's. All I have noticed about them is that they memorize a small brown book titled ' Reasoning from the Scriptures' and a more recent one ,which they distribute while the other is for doctrinal defence. This they do religiously. I have a few of them in my family.
My
observation is this, if you are one and honest with yourself as I asked those close to me: Have you taken time to read the Bible alone without any other books may be three to four times. While doing that, ask the Holy Spirit (Oh, you do n' t believe in His being a person)
no problem, ask Jehovah to explain the scriptures to you.
I challenge any one of you who would do this most sincerely that you will come to testify of your findings on NL
Just be honest with yourself. A no of you guys I have met, mostly those that have over thirty years in it. I ask them this simple question, ' have read the Bible cover to cover alone without any human interpretations? Of course, the answer in always 'NO'.
Until you do that you do not know the beauty of Christianity. You are just follow - follow.

philfearon: .
Which context?"Having the Trumpet of God nko"?you apply one you leave one?..So how does it sound?Jesus will be sounding the trumpet too?

And so,you are Now Jesus abi? Who is the kid here?

You are Wrong,thats nt what i mean..In The days old,God has told a Prophet to speak to dry bones and they had life,Same With Elijah...You are in misconception here..God can raise the Dead wit ur voice,it doesnt mean that it is your voice that Raised the dead;God did...

He doesnt bro..He can do it Himself,but just like you said,God has planned it so..

No...So,what else are u arguing about?

Bro, you can answer that urself "To fulfill all righteousness"...Dont know where u are going...Why does God need human allies When he has billions of angels in heaven who obey him?

Exactly... You didnt read That "1Thessalonian4:16" with other Translations,and it is showing in your constant repetition of the same line==>with the voice of the archangel..Like i said Earlier,read that passage with upto 4different translation..Diversify Yourself!!

@first bolded,stop Thinking,start knowing..

@second bolded,the Bible doesnt say so..And like i said,the Word "archangel" was not used in Revelation..Since you said John was describing according to What he saw,Why didnt he describe Michael in that scene as having any of Jesus' qualities throughout the Book of Revelation? .

Really?Seems like you didnt read the remaining Verse's in that chapter!!

Seriously bro,what were saying there?@bolded..It seems to me you are conflicting your statements..

So did Revelation say he changed to Michael?

I have been giving you detailed replies..Cant say same of You..

Bro,put it in Place of "With".....The nearest in Meaning to "With" in English language is "Accompanied by",and in that 1Thessalonia4:16,when you apply it to the two "WITH{s}" There,The sentence still retain its original Meaning...

Using your "Having"meaning,Here is what the passage luks like:
"For The Lord Himself will Descend from Heaven {Having} a shout,{Having} the Voice of an archangel,and {Having} the trumpet of God,And the Dead in Christ will rise First"
...

Mine:accompanied by;
"For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven{accompanied by} a Shout,{accompanied by} the Voice of The Archangel,{accompanied by} the trumpet of God,and the Dead in Christ will rise first"
so how does it now sound to You?
Which of them has retained the original meaning of the verse?Bro,this verse is simple to understand...Use your head! English is reali very easy to understand!!

..

Same with Jophiel too..That his name wasnt mentioned there doesnt mean it is not him who was described..Unless you are now saying there are nameless angels..
Peace!

philfearon: .
Which context?"Having the Trumpet of God nko"?you apply one you leave one?..So how does it sound?Jesus will be sounding the trumpet too?

And so,you are Now Jesus abi? Who is the kid here?

You are Wrong,thats nt what i mean..In The days old,God has told a Prophet to speak to dry bones and they had life,Same With Elijah...You are in misconception here..God can raise the Dead wit ur voice,it doesnt mean that it is your voice that Raised the dead;God did...

He doesnt bro..He can do it Himself,but just like you said,God has planned it so..

No...So,what else are u arguing about?

Bro, you can answer that urself "To fulfill all righteousness"...Dont know where u are going...Why does God need human allies When he has billions of angels in heaven who obey him?

Exactly... You didnt read That "1Thessalonian4:16" with other Translations,and it is showing in your constant repetition of the same line==>with the voice of the archangel..Like i said Earlier,read that passage with upto 4different translation..Diversify Yourself!!

@first bolded,stop Thinking,start knowing..

@second bolded,the Bible doesnt say so..And like i said,the Word "archangel" was not used in Revelation..Since you said John was describing according to What he saw,Why didnt he describe Michael in that scene as having any of Jesus' qualities throughout the Book of Revelation? .

Really?Seems like you didnt read the remaining Verse's in that chapter!!

Seriously bro,what were saying there?@bolded..It seems to me you are conflicting your statements..

So did Revelation say he changed to Michael?

I have been giving you detailed replies..Cant say same of You..

Bro,put it in Place of "With".....The nearest in Meaning to "With" in English language is "Accompanied by",and in that 1Thessalonia4:16,when you apply it to the two "WITH{s}" There,The sentence still retain its original Meaning...

Using your "Having"meaning,Here is what the passage luks like:
"For The Lord Himself will Descend from Heaven {Having} a shout,{Having} the Voice of an archangel,and {Having} the trumpet of God,And the Dead in Christ will rise First"
...

Mine:accompanied by;
"For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven{accompanied by} a Shout,{accompanied by} the Voice of The Archangel,{accompanied by} the trumpet of God,and the Dead in Christ will rise first"
so how does it now sound to You?
Which of them has retained the original meaning of the verse?Bro,this verse is simple to understand...Use your head! English is reali very easy to understand!!

..

Same with Jophiel too..That his name wasnt mentioned there doesnt mean it is not him who was described..Unless you are now saying there are nameless angels..
Peace!

Mighty Sparrow: This kind of thread is and can only be given by JW's. All I have noticed about them is that they memorize a small brown book titled ' Reasoning from the Scriptures' and a more recent one ,which they distribute while the other is for doctrinal defence. This they do religiously. I have a few of them in my family.
My
observation is this, if you are one and honest with yourself as I asked those close to me: Have you taken time to read the Bible alone without any other books may be three to four times. While doing that, ask the Holy Spirit (Oh, you do n' t believe in His being a person)
no problem, ask Jehovah to explain the scriptures to you.
I challenge any one of you who would do this most sincerely that you will come to testify of your findings on NL
Just be honest with yourself. A no of you guys I have met, mostly those that have over thirty years in it. I ask them this simple question, ' have read the Bible cover to cover alone without any human interpretations? Of course, the answer in always 'NO'.
Until you do that you do not know the beauty of Christianity. You are just follow - follow.

JMAN05:

Now what about another person who left his former religion to join them, even when his family is in another religion. what about someone who has researched about religion and finally found them to be the truth?

Good. you have read the bible cover to cover without any book. just on your own. please come up and tell me their wrong interpretation with you biblical proof, let me see how far you can go.

Since you ve discussed with someone with 30 years experience. Now you know all, and you have it all. now form a thread and lets discuss the trinity. i dont believe it and it is false. You think the witnesses are wrong? form
a thread then. with your experience, you may tell me their mistake.

obadiah777: [b][/b]

philfearon: @JMANO,i see you are full of conflicts,No need quoting you again...and i realised you are still a kid,and as such,you have turned the questions to kiddies Show!!
You brag in confusion..Did you even take out time to read the response you gave?Childish mentality at its Best!!
...
I have been trying to curtail and bear your childish responses since,but this just the height of it;cant condone it again!!
...
However,i will just give you the final chance to come to your Godgiven senses with this different translations of 1Thessalonica4:16........
GOODNEWS BIBLE{UBS}:
"There will be the shout of command,the archangels voice,the sound of Gods trumpet,and the Lord himself will come down from heaven.Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first.."
..
KJV:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,with the trumpet of God.And the dead in Christ will rise first"
...
REVISED STANDARD EDITION{HOLY BIBLE published by The Bible Societies}..
"For the Lord Himself will descend from With a cry of Command,with the Archangel's call,and with the sound of the trumpet of God.And the dead in Christ will rise first"
...
Stop reading the bible with that your reasoning from the scriptures crap or that Crappy Awake!
...When the bible was written,that crap wasnt in existence,and christians dont need that crap to understand the bible...You have already made it known that you use Logic to read the bible,so am sorry for you....The Bible doesnt need human written aid to understand,only The Spirit of God will help you understand what he inspired men to write...Peace!!
...
And dont bother quoting me,i think i have given you enough time already,and you flawed yourself!!

*Kails*:


obadizzle fo shizzle,
you know what it izzle.
my nizzle. i need some scripturizzles.

please obligizzle.

-Kailizzle

(yes; im trolling)

Mighty Sparrow:

The fellows research is a good effort. His conclusion is drawn from how much he knows now. He and such likes should research more. Truth is as much you can take. When it comes to God, no one person or a group has the monopoly of kowledge of God as you guys want to male people believe.
1. Two questions: I have been trying to lay my hand on my copy of reasoning from the scriptures I can't find it now. However, in around pages 35 or 75 it is written (paraphrased) if you are asked about a mistake made by Jw; Give this answer: no
one is above mistake. I know you will have this book be honest what is this mistake?
2. The original versions of the Scriptures are they in the custody of catholics or JW's?

philfearon: @JMANO,i see you are full of conflicts,No need quoting you again...and i realised you are still a kid,and as such,you have turned the questions to kiddies Show!!
You brag in confusion..Did you even take out time to read the response you gave?Childish mentality at its Best!!
...
I have been trying to curtail and bear your childish responses since,but this just the height of it;cant condone it again!!
...

However,i will just give you the final chance to come to your Godgiven senses with this different translations of 1Thessalonica4:16........
GOODNEWS BIBLE{UBS}:
"There will be the shout of command,the archangels voice,the sound of Gods trumpet,and the Lord himself will come down from heaven.Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first.."
..
KJV:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,with the trumpet of God.And the dead in Christ will rise first"
...
REVISED STANDARD EDITION{HOLY BIBLE published by The Bible Societies}..
"For the Lord Himself will descend from With a cry of Command,with the Archangel's call,and with the sound of the trumpet of God.And the dead in Christ will rise first"
...
Stop reading the bible with that your reasoning from the scriptures crap or that Crappy Awake!
...When the bible was written,that crap wasnt in existence,and christians dont need that crap to understand the bible...You have already made it known that you use Logic to read the bible,so am sorry for you....The Bible doesnt need human written aid to understand,only The Spirit of God will help you understand what he inspired men to write...Peace!!
...
And dont bother quoting me,i think i have given you enough time already,and you flawed yourself!!

Mighty Sparrow:

The fellows research is a good effort. His conclusion is drawn from how much he knows now. He and such likes should research more. Truth is as much you can take. When it comes to God, no one person or a group has the monopoly of kowledge of God as you guys want to male people believe.
1. Two questions: I have been trying to lay my hand on my copy of reasoning from the scriptures I can't find it now. However, in around pages 35 or 75 it is written (paraphrased) if you are asked about a mistake made by Jw; Give this answer: no
one is above mistake. I know you will have this book be honest what is this mistake?
2. The original versions of the Scriptures are they in the custody of catholics or JW's?

Mighty Sparrow:





JMAN05
I am back after three days you have not answered my question: Did you travel or something?
Question again:
1. The original scrolls of the N
Bible is whose custody, JW or Catholics?
2. In around pages 45 - 37 or 75 you wrote in Reasoning from the Scriptures about certain mistake your organization made, what is this mistake?

Mighty Sparrow:
JMAN05
I am back after three days you have not answered my question: Did you travel or something?
Question again:
1. The original scrolls of the N
Bible is whose custody, JW or Catholics?

2. In around pages 45 - 37 or 75 you wrote in Reasoning from the Scriptures about certain mistake your organization made, what is this mistake?

MrPresident1:
ARCHANGEL MICHAEL IS JESUS CHRIST

HOW? LETS SEE.

LOOK UP THE STORY OF THE STONING OF STEPHEN IN ACTS 6 AND 7.

Acts 7:55-57
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

FROM THE TWO BIBLE REFERENCES ABOVE, WE KNOW THAT ANGEL MICHAEL THE GREAT PRINCE STANDS FOR HIS PEOPLE.

ALSO, AS STEPHEN WAS BEING STONED, WE SEE THAT JESUS CHRIST HAD STOOD UP FOR HIM. WHY? JESUS DOESN’T STAND AT THE RIGHT HAND, HE SEATS AT THE RIGHT HAND.

Luke 20:42
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

ARCHANGEL MICHAEL THE GREAT PRINCE IS JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD.

Isa 63:9-10
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

1 John 2:1-3
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



The angel of His Presence...we have an advocate with The Father.

Horus:
ARK ANGEL MICHAEL

CANTICLES:
Can u comand with the president's voice if u ar not the president? Definitely no, u must be d president before u av such priviledge!!! Now lets dig truth from the scripture ! Arch - angel means " the head of all angels" or the most superior angel ! Ar u following ?? Micheal was said to be an " Arch- Angel" wich is *singular* (one person), But the post of Arch-angel is mostly given to our Lord Jesus .... Dont be suprised " ... The Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a Commanding call, with an ARCHANGEL'S VOICE " 1the 4:16 .. This shows Jesus voice is dat of an Archangel! Scripture support he is the Arch-angel Micheal ! Aftrall Peter is also known as Simon ( Matt 10:2) , Jacob is also known as Isreal ( Gen 49:1,2) so its not unusual for someone to have two names