Busy_body:

Britain is going through an economic melt-down and is in denial about credit crunch, people are striking because of high fuel cost, council workers are striking, food is getting expensive daily, mindless crime is rising daily, the prisons are full, etc Guess what does the Prime Minister Gordon Brown, the Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Alistair Darling and even the education minister want to talk about on TV You guessed it ZIMBABWE.

Why did you think Mugabe at the recent food summit gave a personal televised comment to Gordon Brown only, Is Britain the only charitable country? Is it not America that is usually the first country to help whenever there is a problem anywhere?

You can say the same for the US and pretty much any other country. Nigeria is no better, crime is worse in South Africa. The major problem with Zimbabwe is that one man has turned himself into a despot and doesnt mind dragging the entire population into the grave in his mad quest to cling unto power.
The problem with Africa is not the penchant of leaders turning the presidency into a family heirloom but that WE either fail to speak out or are willing colaborators in our haste to blame everything on the WEST.

So all this darting from one angle to another has been about you opposing those who do not see hope in Zimbabwe and Nigeria?? Great!!! I wonder what the discussion will be like when you debate those who believe the world is doomed, sigh!!!

davidylan:

You can say the same for the US and pretty much any other country. Nigeria is no better, crime is worse in South Africa.

To be fair, was this not the same logic implied in Lucabrasi's initial post.

davidylan:

The major problem with Zimbabwe is that one man has turned himself into a despot and doesnt mind dragging the entire population into the grave in his mad quest to cling unto power.

Were Abacha, Obasanjo, Babangida to name a few, not despots too? Was it not Abacha who called a presidential election where he was the only candidate in the whole 10 parties that put themselves up? At least that was the impression/ that was rammed down and is still rammed down my throat by the non-blind patriots and their ilk. Nigerians never fail to tell me otherwise so perhaps I need to broaden my horizon.

davidylan:

The problem with Africa is not the penchant of leaders turning the presidency into a family heirloom but that WE either fail to speak out or are willing colaborators in our haste to blame everything on the WEST.

Once again I don't do WEST or GOVERNMENT bashing when it comes to African's economy, see previous post.

Busy_body:

Britain is going through an economic melt-down and is in denial about credit crunch, people are striking because of high fuel cost, council workers are striking, food is getting expensive daily, mindless crime is rising daily, the prisons are full, etc Guess what does the Prime Minister Gordon Brown, the Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Alistair Darling and even the education minister want to talk about on TV You guessed it ZIMBABWE.

Why did you think Mugabe at the recent food summit gave a personal televised comment to Gordon Brown only, Is Britain the only charitable country? Is it not America that is usually the first country to help whenever there is a problem anywhere?

Again this, I believe is not the thread to talk about solutions to African's problems, otherwise . . . I am a stickler for rules, I do not want to derail the thread by going off-topic. I am a vehement opponent of people who think nothing good can come out of Africa and that there is no hope for the country, especially Nigeria. I would never put the sole blame of the demise/decay/rot of a country down to the WEST or the GOVERNMENT.

Britain has inflation of 3.3%, Zimbabwe has inflation of 10,453% and Madam Soludo is talking about Britain's economic meltdown.

People are picking holes in her arguments left and right, point after point, and she without shame just shrugs her shoulders and moves on to the next rubbish point.

She does not see any obligation on her part to make sense in a debate. How pathetic!

Busy_body:

To be fair, was this not the same logic implied in Lucabrasi's initial post.

No, his "logic" implied that since Nigeria was no better we should all keep quiet and allow Mugabe to continue ruling Zimbabwe like his fiefdorm from the grave.

Busy_body:

Were Abacha, Obasanjo, Babangida to name a few, not despots too? Was it not Abacha who called a presidential election where he was the only candidate in the whole 10 parties that put themselves up? At least that was the impression/ that was rammed down and is still rammed down my throat by the non-blind patriots and their ilk. Nigerians never fail to tell me otherwise so perhaps I need to broaden my horizon.

Correct . . . Hitler was an even worse despot . . . the world did not just sit back, fold their arms and allow them run amok as you are suggesting the WEST turns a blind eye to Mugabe and remove sanctions.
Thanks to Abacha, Nigeria virtually went under pariah status and had sanctions slammed on her . . . why are you crying loudly on behalf of the Zimbabweans?

Sagamite:

Britain has inflation of 3.3%, Zimbabwe has inflation of 10,453% and Madam Soludo is talking about Britain's economic meltdown.

Is that the CPI or the RPI, olodo? Who the heck is Madam Soluda that you keep on referring to?

Sagamite:

People are picking holes in her arguments left and right, point after point, and she without shame just shrugs her shoulders and moves on to the next rubbish point.
She does not see any obligation on her part to make sense in a debate. How pathetic!

Big deal. Design flaws travel in groups
What argument, methinks you are taking yourself too seriously and over what?  A jokey response to a jokey post 

Anyway like I said before nothing sways the stupid more than argument they cannot comprehend.

Check out my signature too odoyo.

davidylan:

No, his "logic" implied that since Nigeria was no better we should all keep quiet and allow Mugabe to continue ruling Zimbabwe like his fiefdorm from the grave.

Yes he sai[d Nigeria was no better, like you did, but he did not say Mugabe should be condoned. All he was concerned with, like me, was the know-towing Britain expected and their attempt to impose their stoodge Tsavthingy, on the Zims.

davidylan:

Correct . . . Hitler was an even worse despot . . . the world did not just sit back, fold their arms and allow them run amok as you are suggesting the WEST turns a blind eye to Mugabe and remove sanctions.

But this time It is not the WEST, just Britain, and their reason does not just wash with me, hence the reason I brought some of the other ailing west African countries into the equation.

davidylan:

Thanks to Abacha, Nigeria virtually went under pariah status and had sanctions slammed on her . . . why are you crying loudly on behalf of the Zimbabweans?

How long were the sanctions in Nigeria in place for? Months I was told, _{again by the non-blind patriots}. I have not exactly done that, telling Britain to get their grubby hands off Zimbabwe, does not mean I am crying loudly on behalf of the Zims. ^{Don't get me wrong o, I pity them o.} That is for another thread & another day.


I don't argue with people whose opinions I do not respect.

Mandela just condemned Mugabe.

So Mandela too is now a converted Western stooge and apologists according to our geniuses in this forum.

Busy_body:

Yes he sai[d Nigeria was no better, like you did, but he did not say Mugabe should be condoned. All he was concerned with, like me, was the know-towing Britain expected and their attempt to impose their stoodge Tsavthingy, on the Zims.

You and I know this is not what Lucabrasi meant. If you have followed his conversation so far, you would know that the guy is actually speaking for Mugabe and not he has made that clear as day. No one imposed Tsanvgiri on the Zimbabweans. They VOTED to have him Replace Mugabe. Why does that not even ring with you people?? Even Mugabe CONFIRMED this fact. Are the people too stupid to know what they want??

Busy_body:

How long were the sanctions in Nigeria in place for? Months I was told, _{again by the non-blind patriots}. I have not exactly done that, telling Britain to get their grubby hands off Zimbabwe, does not mean I am crying loudly on behalf of the Zims. ^{Don't get me wrong o, I pity them o.} That is for another thread & another day.
I don't argue with people whose opinions I do not respect.

I suggest you research Abacha please. I mean it is one thing to claim you were told something but a bit of research of your own won’t hurt. I actually lived through the Abacha regime myself.

I was going to let this pass but . . .

Kobojunkie:

Is this just about you trying hard to be right here??

Me, nooooooooo, only the foolish and the dead thinks such-like.

Kobojunkie:

First you claimed there were no forces in sudan.

Did I? All I meant was that there was no spotlight on Sudan who have lost hundreds of thousands, so why Zim. Besides apart from the Red Cross, who else is in Sudan?

Kobojunkie:

For that I posted a couple of links for you to see that is not true. Then you claim the Ethiopia –erithrea war was still going on and I posted another link so you could see that is not true.  What exactly do you expect from all this??

Conflict is not over in those region.

Kobojunkie:

I believe the answer to this question is very simple. If you look at and understand the history of the British in Zimbabwe, the agreements made after the country’s independence and the impact of Mugabe’s decision to kick out the white’s in Zimbabwe (Legal Zimbabweans and all), you will not continue to ask this question.

You can close your eyes to reality, not memories

Kobojunkie:

I liken this to someone coming on here to ask me why France has so much interest vested in States like Chad and some other French countries in Africa and how come the French makes noise when there are issues in those countries than it does in most others. I really don’t get why anyone would come in asking that question.

If they stop at well-meaning vested interest, all well and good, but the moment they start making demands !!! Hmmn, that is another story.

Kobojunkie:

UUmm… You can always not watch the BBC. I mean I know there are so many other stations out there you can switch on to instead of the BBC.

Hmmn, you could also subscribe to another thread, there are currently 121653 of them according to the front page of Nairaland.

FYI, the reason BBC came into the equation was because someone used it as a basis for some mind-boggling stats.

Kobojunkie:

CNN covers Zimbabwe on a daily basis and no one is going on and on about that but me thinks this is all a ruse to target all things British in this case.

If you can call my passionate vehement and vociferous stance so far, a ruse, then I believe I am well within my right to state the fact that "a fool understands in the end . . .
Don't take it to heart, it's only my opinion and everyone has one, and I believe we all know saying about opinions and ar'seholes . . .  

Kobojunkie:

I am going to guess you are a Nigerian and hence an African.

Wondering out loudly ^{Hmmn, how many brownie points am I going to give for this insightful foresight.}

Kobojunkie:

Don’t you feel shame when you ask what FOREIGN countries are doing for Africa?

When you can quote when I ever said this, perhaps I would be able to get back to you with an answer.

Kobojunkie:

How can you speak of foreign country’s pursuing their own private agenda in Africa and with the same mouth demand to know what they are doing about a situation in the same Africa? I am not sure if you see it from where you seat but it is ridiculous.

The only absurd thing here is this ambiguous insinuation of yours

Kobojunkie:

Why are you not demanding the leaders in your own Africa stand up and do their job instead??

That is a subject for another day/another thread. I am a firm believer of being one's brother's keeper, so do not wish to rely on the government as a crutch, only as a safety net as and when needed.

Kobojunkie:

The African people who so claim to care for are dying off. Zimbabweans are being taunted with food by their own leaders. This was recently the case in Somalia; the president and his prime minister in a power war .The people made to starve or support the one side or the other.

Again, another thread, another day.

Kobojunkie:

Why focus on the West when your own are being treated worse than pigs by your own people??
Are we not ashamed that to this day, we still use the WEST as excuse for stupidity in Africa??

Please speak for yourself. I am more ashamed of the non-blind patriots who continuously bad mouth my country as good for nothing.

Im getting so sick and tired of this "Look at the west" "Its not Mugarbages fault"

Will you people please get real you are a disgrace look at the facts for what they are the man is mad! The people are suffering no white man is doing this!!!!

Gosh hissssssssssssssss
The reason why we are getting so much info on this is because other places like Sudan and Co suffered in silence!

Zimbabwes are different they have had enough and they are screaming for help!!!

Kobojunkie:

You and I know this is not what Lucabrasi meant. If you have followed his conversation so far, you would know that the guy is actually speaking for Mugabe and not he has made that clear as day. No one imposed Tsanvgiri on the Zimbabweans. They VOTED to have him Replace Mugabe. Why does that not even ring with you people?? Even Mugabe CONFIRMED this fact. Are the people too stupid to know what they want??

Saying Britain should butt out and mind their own business, is not the same as saying he likes what is going on in the country, and hence he does not support the proposed change in leadership. He does not have such bad taste, and would not even wish that on his enemy.

Kobojunkie:

I suggest you research Abacha please. I mean it is one thing to claim you were told something but a bit of research of your own won’t hurt. I actually lived through the Abacha regime myself.

But what do most people in the west get confronted with? Is it not sentiments like "Nigeria is a bad country and Nigerians should be avoided", that springs out from Nigerian news headlines and fora. This is what we hear and see from the likes of you. For example you can see this Nigerian bashing from a lot of thread on this forum, and it makes both the natives in diaspora and the would-be tourists, scared of going to the country. Anyone of the opinion that Nigeria is not that bad is labelled a BLIND PATRIOT, etc. What is wrong in having a little hope?

Men my bed is calling. Tommorrow is another day, God-willing.[quote][/quote]

Off-topic

God will change the heart of the government and give the Continent people who are not power hungry and whose only interest it is to line their pockets.

In the meantime, I believe we do not need to rely on the Government to provide basic amenities for our fellow Nigerians.

Instead of erecting a whole transformer in your own compound, why not share this with your neighbourhood.

People with boreholes could link a pipe to the outside for people to come and fetch water to save them the rather tedious journey of having to go a long way of getting the water.

Do people really need 50 cars in their compound. People can offer to give others a lift to school, work, etc

It is possible to procure a land from the Baale and get together to build a school or furnish a school with the necessary stuffs they need like books, roof, etc

The lists of goodwill that we can do is endless, if we take it one street at a time, May God reward us all.

Once upon a time, my mum was moaning about the cost of having to replace her exhaust and my brother's due to the bad state of the road leading to the house. I asked why she couldn't pay the 15,000 (two lorry load of sand) that it would have cost her to refill the pothole in the road instead of forking out 21,000 every six months to repair her exhaust system. All she could do was mumble under her breath about rain . . .

                       
                      The pessimist complains about the wind.
                            The optimist expects it to change direction.
                                 The realist adjusts the sails.

Good night and God bless.

Busy_body:

Yes he sai[d Nigeria was no better, like you did, but he did not say Mugabe should be condoned. All he was concerned with, like me, was the know-towing Britain expected and their attempt to impose their stoodge Tsavthingy, on the Zims.

Now we are manufacturing just about anything to fit reality abi?
1. How is Tsvangirai a stooge of Britain?
2. Was it Britain that FORCED the Zimbabweans to vote in Tsvangirai in the last general elections?

Busy_body:

But this time It is not the WEST, just Britain, and their reason does not just wash with me, hence the reason I brought some of the other ailing west African countries into the equation.

Wrong! Pls just read what Condoleeza Rice has to say - Condoleezza Rice says Zimbabwe 'outpost of tyranny'

I'm sure you know Condi isnt British. I hope you also know that Tsvangirai took refuge in the Dutch embassy just a few days ago.

Learn to argue when you know the facts and not before. This is nothing to do with Britain but about condemning genocide and despotism.

Busy_body:

How long were the sanctions in Nigeria in place for? Months I was told

How does this help the issue? The sanctions were in place until Abacha was kicked out by death . . . did you expect sanctions to remain under a democratically elected government?
Did you know that Cuba's economic sanctions have been on for close to 40yrs?

Kobojunkie was right, we at least we'rent told about sanctions, we lived through them.

Busy_body:

telling Britain to get their grubby hands off Zimbabwe, does not mean I am crying loudly on behalf of the Zims.

This is as funny as it makes no sense. Why do you think (speculate) that Britain has a grubby hand over Zimbabwe? Does it have oil? No! What is there to grab?

Busy_body:

I don't argue with people whose opinions I do not respect.

You dont even have an oppinion, more like just making noise to show you at least know a smidgen of politics.

Busy_body:

God will change the heart of the government and give the Continent people who are not power hungry and whose only interest it is to line their pockets.

Until the people STAND UP and say NO to bad government, God will not fly down from heaven and kick out despots like Mugarbage who shockingly still have people like you sticking up for him. Was it God that gave the WEST their own governments?

I think i can safely say for a lot of folks on this thread that we are just about sick of us blaming God for our own failures to put basic things right.

Busy_body:

In the meantime, I believe we do not need to rely on the Government to provide basic amenities for our fellow Nigerians.

Why then do we pay taxes? Why do we get health insurance and other bills charged on our salaries? So that we can then go back to not depending on government? Who should provide good roads, schools, electricity, drinking water, good policing? Why then does government reel out billions in budgetary allocations if we are not to depend on them?
you live in the WEST . . . do their own citizens not rely on their governments?
Do you even know the role of a government?

Busy_body:

Instead of erecting a whole transformer in your own compound, why not share this with your neighbourhood.

So we shld all go purchase our own transformers? By the way are u suggesting we go build our own dams because u said we shld not depend on government for electricity and transformers by themselves cannot generate power?

Busy_body:

People with boreholes could link a pipe to the outside for people to come and fetch water to save them the rather tedious journey of having to go a long way of getting the water.

and how many can afford a borehole? Should we go erect our own water pumping stations and water pipes?

Busy_body:

Do people really need 50 cars in their compound. People can offer to give others a lift to school, work, etc

Since we are not to depend on government are you talking of the schools we built and the teachers we are paying from our salaries?

Busy_body:

It is possible to procure a land from the Baale and get together to build a school or furnish a school with the necessary stuffs they need like books, roof, etc

Land use act decree 1979 . . . duh Maybe we shld procure land from God.

Busy_body:

The lists of goodwill that we can do is endless, if we take it one street at a time, May God reward us all.

pls show us how many countries have survived on goodwill and government ineptitude.

Busy_body:

Once upon a time, my mum was moaning about the cost of having to replace her exhaust and my brother's due to the bad state of the road leading to the house. I asked why she couldn't pay the 15,000 (two lorry load of sand) that it would have cost her to refill the pothole in the road instead of forking out 21,000 every six months to repair her exhaust system. All she could do was mumble under her breath about rain . . .

and for how long will your mom be paying for lorry load of sand? Everytime it rains?

Busy_body:

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change direction.
The realist adjusts the sails.

Good night and God bless.

The pessimist complains about the wind
the optimist expects it to change direction
the realist expects the captain to do his job for which he is paid
and the dreamer? Well too busy expecting God to stop the wind

Good night and God bless.

Busy_body:

Saying Britain should butt out and mind their own business, is not the same as saying he likes what is going on in the country, and hence he does not support the proposed change in leadership. He does not have such bad taste, and would not even wish that on his enemy.

Saying Britain should butt out is saying “I do not know anything about Zimbabwe but because I have anti-west sentiments to spew, I will urge Britain to butt out”. Please can we please get educated and learn what the relationship is really of and how deep it goes before we spew stuff.
What @Lucabrasi has done so far is state that because Britain is involved, Mugabe is right for denying the people their right to have their voices heard. I urge you to please read his posts again to understand that you have it all wrong in the way you try to explain it to yourself.

Lost in the entire anti-west rattle, is the fact that the people actually voted for the candidate whom you all label an instrument of the west. I am sure Mugabe suspects that the people would vote the same way during the runoff elections, if he did not act, hence the reason why he decided to use force and everything he could to intimidate them. 1000 people have died so far at the hands of Mugabe and his supporters who are not the majority in this.

Please open your eyes and set aside your bias. Think first of the people and their right to choose. Coming in here to tell us the people are not ready for the west, when these same people, knowing all they know of the west (since they just came out of the hands of the west only 28 years ago), and what Mugabe has always thought of Tsvangiri, voted for him anyway. Isn’t that arrogance?? No matter how you try to slice and dice it, it still remains that he ignored the will of the people in his dislike of the west.

Busy_body:

But what do most people in the west get confronted with? Is it not sentiments like "Nigeria is a bad country and Nigerians should be avoided", that springs out from Nigerian news headlines and fora.

Now, if that is all you get confronted with, that is fine but I have never met a single person in the west who has told me he/she would NEVER visit Nigeria because some person told him it is a bad place. People know of the situation in Sudan and Chad and they still sign up to go down there. Heck, I believe there is a tour company already flying people from the west to Iraq and even with all the horrors stories we hear of the place. People go there. What makes you think people necessarily avoid Nigeria cause of bad stories?? I mean it did not stop the university here in my community from sending students down there for summer exchange program. Why do you think many Nigerians go out to tell people that Nigeria is a bad country and should be avoided??
If Lagbaja got killed by the government in Nigeria, should the Nigerian news headlines not run this story cause, I don’t know, some people are not comfortable with fact that these sorts of things happen in Nigeria?? I think there is point in life where you learn to accept that you are a Nigerian and Nigeria has a lot of issues and there is no need to want to hide it, thinking that somehow, that helps. That is the kind of Nigeria we had under Abacha. Back then, the word of the day was “ Egiri leti, eyon lo n je be” ( The walls have ears). People were being arrested left and right for opposing the government. Even in the news, you could sense there was a push to focus more on news the people knew were mostly spins on reality. Is that what Nigeria needs?? Is that what a democracy calls for?? Is that really the way forward?? Isn’t it possible to accept the truth and the problems and understand that only then can we works towards a more lasting solution?? How can you solve a problem when you choose to or continue to deny it or hide it??

Busy_body:

This is what we hear and see from the likes of you. For example you can see this Nigerian bashing from a lot of thread on this forum, and it makes both the natives in diaspora and the would-be tourists, scared of going to the country. Anyone of the opinion that Nigeria is not that bad is labelled a BLIND PATRIOT, etc. What is wrong in having a little hope?
Men my bed is calling. Tommorrow is another day, God-willing.

Do you realize that the people here are Nigerians telling other Nigerians of problems that exist in the same country?? If a man like Gani Fawehinmi came up to you and started telling you of how corrupt the government really is in Nigeria, would you tell him he was Nigeria-Bashing?? It seems the problem here is more a case of people who are over sensitive and over reactive, rushing to judge everyone who states actual problems in Nigeria today as Bashers. Are you sure you have the right mind there to conclude stating fact is same as bashing??

Here are simple questions…. Does Corruption exist in Nigeria to an extent that everyone, even those at the top are frustrated about it??YES
Are Over 75 million people living below the poverty line in an oil rich country called Nigeria?? YES
Does the average Nigerian benefit from the abundant resources that country sits on?? NO
Is the Educational System in a bad shape?? YES (Even the Federal ministry of Education States this on their website)

Why do you have a problem with people discussing what is fact as if they are making up stories or something?? Why do you have a rush when people do this?? Are you solving the problem by calling them bashers?? Why not instead of bickering about them bickering, you show them by your actions that you have a better way for them to deal with the issue?? I mean if you feel they are wrong, show them an alternative way to go about dealing with the problem. Don’t tell me there are no problems in Nigeria or start lamely comparing Nigeria with the worst countries out there to get me to be happy with what I now to be true.

Don’t come in to tell me you believe America is better and so Nigeria should not strive for best and start by condemning stupidity today. Show me what you have done, results and all to convince me that all is not as bad as I think it is. Don’t come with pink stories of hope or fantasy stories.

Best is to show me what you know you have done and all. Not come in like some “Holier than thou” preacher thinking he can convince me by condemning me. Worse, his judgment is narrow-minded understanding and views which he believes should be imposed on others around him.

Do not come in here to talk to adults as if they are to listen to you spew GAS with no substance and accept it as being valid. We get people who turn to insulting those they claim are Nigeria-Bashers as if (Bashing) + (more Bashing) will result in a positive---- ROFLMAO!!

Busy_body:

Off-topic

God will change the heart of the government and give the Continent people who are not power hungry and whose only interest it is to line their pockets.

God will NOT change that which you do not want to change. Open any holy book out there and you will see that it is the same no matter what version you pick. If you desire Change, you will do what is needed, else, you will continue to get what you get. No be curse, na reality! --- ROFLMAO!!

Busy_body:

Off-topic
In the meantime, I believe we do not need to rely on the Government to provide basic amenities for our fellow Nigerians. Instead of erecting a whole transformer in your own compound, why not share this with your neighbourhood.
People with boreholes could link a pipe to the outside for people to come and fetch water to save them the rather tedious journey of having to go a long way of getting the water.

Uumm… good ideas but am afraid to say I agree.

Busy_body:

Do people really need 50 cars in their compound. People can offer to give others a lift to school, work, etc

I so hoped it would not come to this. If 50 cars is what they want, then 50 cars is not bad for them. I don’t think society should make them guilty for having 50 cars if they work hard and earn it. I just don’t want the “PATRIOTS” coming to tell me I have no right to have 5 cars in my compound or get me labeled unpatriotic for doing that ooo--- LMAO!!!

Busy_body:

It is possible to procure a land from the Baale and get together to build a school or furnish a school with the necessary stuffs they need like books, roof, etc
The lists of goodwill that we can do is endless, if we take it one street at a time, May God reward us all.

Good ideas and only the people can make it happen. Like I mentioned on another thread, I have never actually met a “patriot” who puts his money and hand where his mouth is. I have only had to deal with many who claim to love Nigeria with all their heart and butt and as soon as they get in office or are called to act, they turn out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. So How about show us that you love this country with more than just lip service?

davidylan:

Until the people STAND UP and say NO to bad government, God will not fly down from heaven and kick out despots like Mugarbage who shockingly still have people like you sticking up for him. Was it God that gave the WEST their own governments?

I think i can safely say for a lot of folks on this thread that we are just about sick of us blaming God for our own failures to put basic things right.

Why then do we pay taxes? Why do we get health insurance and other bills charged on our salaries? So that we can then go back to not depending on government? Who should provide good roads, schools, electricity, drinking water, good policing? Why then does government reel out billions in budgetary allocations if we are not to depend on them?
you live in the WEST . . . do their own citizens not rely on their governments?
Do you even know the role of a government?

So we shld all go purchase our own transformers? By the way are u suggesting we go build our own dams because u said we shld not depend on government for electricity and transformers by themselves cannot generate power?

and how many can afford a borehole? Should we go erect our own water pumping stations and water pipes?

Since we are not to depend on government are you talking of the schools we built and the teachers we are paying from our salaries?

Land use act decree 1979 . . . duh Maybe we shld procure land from God.

please show us how many countries have survived on goodwill and government ineptitude.

and for how long will your mom be paying for lorry load of sand? Everytime it rains?

The pessimist complains about the wind
the optimist expects it to change direction
the realist expects the captain to do his job for which he is paid
and the dreamer? Well too busy expecting God to stop the wind

Good night and God bless.

seconded, adopted, accepted and recorded

davidylan:

The pessimist complains about the wind
the optimist expects it to change direction
the realist expects the captain to do his job for which he is paid
and the dreamer? Well too busy expecting God to stop the wind

Good night and God bless.

From just a few pictures, a debate arose, lol.

stillwater:

From just a few pictures, a debate arose, lol.

A picsurr apparently speaks a thousand words. A classic example that comes to mind is the DAnish cartoon palaver. Na only ma'self I blame, I for don go to jokes thread instead, if I sabi early say people get chips on their shoulder for this politics thread. God give me strength.

Busy_body:

A picsurr apparently speaks a thousand words. A classic example that comes to mind is the DAnish cartoon palaver. Na only ma'self I blame, I for don go to jokes thread instead, if I sabi early say people get chips on their shoulder for this politics thread. God give me strength.

This has nothing to do with a chip on someone's shoulder but merely getting more people to stop INJECTING propaganda into most every story and try to see things more clearly. Why the need to make it all a conspiracy even when it is clear that is not applicable

Kobojunkie:

You and I know this is not what Lucabrasi meant. If you have followed his conversation so far, you would know that the guy is actually speaking for Mugabe and not he has made that clear as day. No one imposed Tsanvgiri on the Zimbabweans. They VOTED to have him Replace Mugabe. Why does that not even ring with you people?? Even Mugabe CONFIRMED this fact. Are the people too stupid to know what they want??

pls dont jump to conclusions,i never supported mugabe,all im saying is that because bbc and other western media feeds me something on rolling news everyday will not make me automatically swallow it as the next thing to the gospel of mathew,mark,luke and john,
once again i will say it loud and clear that in as much as i oppose mugabe(check my earlier posts)i do not think tsanv s is the right person for zimbabwe because he is a western stooge,what happens a couple of years down the line if he ops out of the patnership like mugabe did??then the ppl gets into turmoil,we start getting the sound bits from western media and reactions,
@busybody
you r absolutely spot on,and thats exactly what i meant,one thing i dont do is react to sound bites and also i always like to check issues from all the angles and not just the angles presented to me,if tsv was fully independent then im sure he ll have had more support than he is having now,also news flash for nigerians mouthing off about zimbabwe and the cartoons and what not,nigeria is worse,our leaders are worse,
like an african leader said(i forget whcih one)the man said"we take 10% of contract sum and people are complaining,they should go to nigeria and see government officials take 100% of contract sum"

lucabrasi:

please don't jump to conclusions,i never supported mugabe,all im saying is that because bbc and other western media feeds me something on rolling news everyday will not make me automatically swallow it as the next thing to the gospel of mathew,mark,luke and john,

What the frell has this to do with your posts Or any other posts on here. Your posts clearly show what side of the argument you take??

lucabrasi:

once again i will say it loud and clear that in as much as i oppose mugabe(check my earlier posts)i do not think tsanv s is the right person for zimbabwe because he is a western stooge, what happens a couple of years down the line if he ops out of the patnership like mugabe did??then the people gets into turmoil,we start getting the sound bits from western media and reactions,

Who cares?? What the heck has our delusions of what the future may hold to do with current situations?? Western Stooge or not, what about the fact that the people decided the risk was worth it and voted Tsvangira in as their choice?? If the people get into turmoil, let it be of their own choice and not of some choice imposed on them by another. Can’t you see that you are saying exactly the same thing no matter how you try to twist it? Are you so anti-west that you can not see the problem in your argument?? Can you not see how you continue to do exactly what Mugabe is doing to these people by your own words( denying them their right to choose as they wish)??

Kobojunkie:

What the frell has this to do with your posts Or any other posts on here. Your posts clearly show what side of the argument you take??
Who cares?? What the heck has our delusions of what the future may hold to do with current situations?? Western Stooge or not, what about the fact that the people decided the risk was worth it and voted Tsvangira in as their choice?? If the people get into turmoil, let it be of their own choice and not of some choice imposed on them by another. Can’t you see that you are saying exactly the same thing no matter how you try to twist it? Are you so anti-west that you can not see the problem in your argument?? Can you not see how you continue to do exactly what Mugabe is doing to these people by your own words( denying them their right to choose as they wish)??

[quote][/quote]
it has a lot to do with my posts because in your haste to come to your conclusions,u barely read my post but u wrongly assumed that i was supporting mugabe,and in answer to your questions , that is the reason why i specifically answered that,and there u go again telling me what side of the argument im on.

oh now i get it,so u dont care what the future holds for zimbabwe as long as mugabe is out, hmmmn iraq somehow rings a bell,well the current situation is realli important,in fact will actually be a foundation to future events in that country because the kind of leader to a very large extent will determine how stable the country will be politically and economically,a lot of people voted in tsv as their choice yes but in case you v not been reading what is written in earlier posts,its about the west's interests in the whole thing and also whose interests tsv will be serving in addittion compared to nigeria how worse off we are while criticising zimbabwe,well tsv is partllly the people's choice but mainly america and the rest of the wests choice mainly,mugabe used to be their main choice should choices of leaders be made solely on the returns for the west?i dont think so
lets get some things straight,im not in support of mugabe,but how is the west making demands giving the people free choice?how s the western media all suddenly realising that they have to be united and with one voice root for zimbabwe not smack of self interest ?thats not free choice?thats not selfless, and then virtually putting pressure and blackmailing other african countries/au to toe their line, free choice is good but let it be practised across board

I like the debate.

4 Play, please refrain from insulting co-debaters unneccessarily

lucabrasi:

it has a lot to do with my posts because in your haste to come to your conclusions,u barely read my post but u wrongly assumed that i was supporting mugabe,and in answer to your questions , that is the reason why i specifically answered that,and there u go again telling me what side of the argument im on.

The Problem here is you keep saying the same thing only in different words and think it means something different each time. What side is Mugabe on? The side that feels it is right to deny the people their right to have their say, cause of his own private ambitions and fears. What you have been doing yourself is using your private ambitions and fears as reason why the people should be denied their right to have Tsangviri as their next president. Do you understand this now?

lucabrasi:

oh now i get it,so u don't care what the future holds for zimbabwe as long as mugabe is out,

I do care about the future of the Zimbabwean people that is why I am so open to leaving it to the people. They know what is best for them, don’t you think??

lucabrasi:

hmmmn iraq somehow rings a bell,

Please try to stay on topic.

lucabrasi:

well the current situation is realli important,in fact will actually be a foundation to future events in that country because the kind of leader to a very large extent will determine how stable the country will be politically and economically,a lot of people voted in tsv as their choice yes but in case you v not been reading what is written in earlier posts,its about the west's interests in the whole thing and also whose interests tsv will be serving

I don’t care whose interest it is, the fact is the people have spoken. They know of the west and I am sure they know of Tsangvira’s supposed connections to the west. But the most important in all this is they voted for him. So again, What point do you think you can make by telling us that because of some people’s deluded ideas of the west, the People of Zimbabwe should not be allowed to speak or choose freely? Even with all the supposed fears and gloom and doom outlooks, if the west is what the people want, why deny them that?? What justification do you think there is to deny these people their right to choose?

lucabrasi:

in addittion compared to nigeria how worse off we are while criticising zimbabwe,

What the frell has this debate to do with how worse off Nigeria is or is not? If we follow that angle then I ask you who the heck you think you are to believe you know what is best for Zimbabwe then??  

lucabrasi:

well tsv is partllly the people's choice but mainly america and the rest of the wests choice mainly,mugabe used to be their main choice should choices of leaders be made solely on the returns for the west?

There was an election. The people voted and they voted for Tsanvgira over Mugabe. Are you now saying that even with Venezuela and the other election officers down there, the US and the west managed to rig the election in favour of Tsangviri? What has Mugabe being the choice of the west to do with Tsangvirie being the people’s choice? Why continue with this seriously disconnected logic??

lucabrasi:

i don't think so
lets get some things straight,im not in support of mugabe, but how is the west making demands giving the people free choice?

Your own posts continue to betray you though.  You are spewing the same anti-west rhetoric, as Mugabe has continued to himself, as reason for why the Zimbabweans should not be give back their power to choose a leader and you come back to tell me you are not in support of Mugabe? Are you sure?

lucabrasi:


how s the western media all suddenly realising that they have to be united and with one voice root for zimbabwe not smack of self interest ?thats not free choice?thats not selfless, and then virtually putting pressure and blackmailing other african countries/au to toe their line, free choice is good but let it be practised across board

So we should now blame media companies as well for this? Is Al Jazeera in on the whole too as it does seem to broadcast the same stories on how bad things are in Zimbabwe and how Mugabe has been pushing his power down the throats of the people. So fortune 500 media houses who main jobs are to sell the public the news the people want are now controlling Zimbabwe?? Are you ok?? I mean do you read your own posts to understand how loopy these things come off?? What has Media to do with how a president chooses to run his country or not?? What had media to do with people being denied their choice?


The Situation in Zimbabwe today has nothing to do with your personal insecurities when it comes to the West. There are millions of Africans who are not as terrified of the west as you are. So I am sorry to tell you that this is all a matter of perception and nothing more.

Zimbabweans are suffering in the millions. I happen to have been down in South Africa when the first batch of refugees started flooding in to South Africa. These people are living as beggars, and working in really appalling conditions. They feel helpless. Many of them went back to their country; we are talking thousands, to cast their vote. Zimbabweans have thrown their lot in with Tsangvirae, please respect their choice regardless of your personal fears. Is this too much to ask of people?

davidylan:

Now we are manufacturing just about anything to fit reality abi?
1. How is Tsvangirai a stooge of Britain?
2. Was it Britain that FORCED the Zimbabweans to vote in Tsvangirai in the last general elections?

As long as Tony Blair can take to the stands in Parliament and declare that they would not relent on Mugabe until a regime change happens and have given full backing to the MDC.

davidylan:

Wrongon ! Please just read what Condoleeza Rice has to say - Condoleezza Rice says Zimbabwe 'outpost of tyranny'
I'm sure you know Condi isnt British. I hope you also know that Tsvangirai took refuge in the Dutch embassy just a few days ago.

Okay I have read it, and what jumped out was the fact that the US imposed sanctions ^{(ZIDERA, EO 13288, EO 13391, etcetera)} and isolated Zimbabwe from multilateral lending agencies, such as the IMF, World Bank, and the African Development Bank and were given strict instructions to veto any applications by Zimbabwe for finance, credit facilities, loan rescheduling, and international debt cancellation because the presidential election was a riddled with fraudulent malpractices. Laughable really when you think of the conspiracy clouds surrounding the US presidential election of 2002.  

Sanctions were also imposed because Mugabe decided to lay out the red carpet for the President of Iran, Bush's sworn arch enemy, who says he would not relent until Israel is wipede out off the face of the earth.
The funniest part of the article was the general statement of that Natan Sharansky's Town Square Test. Doesn't it beggar belief that the US now rely on that test as a blanket policy to decide which Country should be included in the "axis of evil" and "outlaw countries category"?

Why is Britain not on that list? Why is America not on that list? Is it possible to go to their town centre to denounce their decision to go to war in Iraq, in violation of UN resolution.  

davidylan:

Learn to argue when you know the facts and not before. This is nothing to do with Britain but about condemning genocide and despotism.

For fear of beginning to sound like a broken record, I would say this for the last time, I DO NOT CONDONE MUGABE AND HIS ZANU_PF PARTY's STANCE. Mugabe is not the only factor contributing to the economic woes of His country, even though the buck stops with him. Feel free to join the anglo band with their collective amnesia. Facts would not cease to exist because they are ignored.
My ranting everyday about Mugabe being a killer, Mugabe is an evil despot, Mugabe is a tyrant, Obasanjo is an evil person, Nigeria has gone to the dogs, etc would not solve a thing. Such sentimental anxieties does not empty tomorrow of its sorrows, but only empties today of its strength.

davidylan:

How does this help the issue? The sanctions were in place until Abacha was kicked out by death . . . did you expect sanctions to remain under a democratically elected government?

A country's vulnerability to sanction cannot be measured equally, so saying Nigeria was sanctioned, Cuba was sanctioned does not wash with me.

Sanctions depend on what international law has been violated and the threat to international peace and security. Sanctions are imposed on various reasons such as Diplomatic ground, Political ground, Humanitarian ground, etc. Sanctions are also put in place for the Government, their associates, the opposition party, the entire population, etc  

davidylan:

Did you know that Cuba's economic sanctions have been on for close to 40yrs?

In addition to the previous answer above, Yes I know how long Cuba has been on one form of sanction or the other from the US. That US wants Fidel Castro outta Cuba is no longer news.

And I also know that following the fall of the Soviet Union and a retightening of the economic blockade, Cuba was in crisis within 12 months. And as they could no longer rely on Russia paying above market price for sugar, they now relies mainly on tourism and indeed it is one of the popular tourist destination.

davidylan:

Kobojunkie was right

Please [s]clinging desperately to his knees [/s] don't even go there.  ^Grrrrrrrr

davidylan:

This is as funny as it makes no sense. Why do you think (speculate) that Britain has a grubby hand over Zimbabwe? Does it have oil? No! What is there to grab?

My sentiment too, what is there to grab?
They are lobbying Southern African Region to consider further sanctions if Tsvangirai does not win, they are on the throat of Mozambique and South Africa to impose economic blockage on vital import, they are rooting for complete trade embargoes and ban on purchase of goods, they are imploring the South African Government to switch off electricity to the country, they require China ^{(the mitigating reason they are scared of going in)} to give them a day-to-day running commentary on the country.

Blair categorically and unashamedly stated in the House of Parliament, that the British government were working with the (MDC) to effect regime change, just like they did to Kenya.    

davidylan:

You don't even have an oppinion, more like just making noise to show you at least know a smidgen of politics.

Be wiser than other people if you can by all means, but do not tell them so.  

lucabrasi:

please don't jump to conclusions,i never supported mugabe,all im saying is that because bbc and other western media feeds me something on rolling news everyday will not make me automatically swallow it as the next thing to the gospel of mathew,mark,luke and john,
once again i will say it loud and clear that in as much as i oppose mugabe(check my earlier posts)i do not think tsanv s is the right person for zimbabwe because he is a western stooge,what happens a couple of years down the line if he ops out of the patnership like mugabe did??then the people gets into turmoil,we start getting the sound bits from western media and reactions,
@busybody
you r absolutely spot on,and thats exactly what i meant,one thing i don't do is react to sound bites and also i always like to check issues from all the angles and not just the angles presented to me,if tsv was fully independent then im sure he ll have had more support than he is having now,also news flash for nigerians mouthing off about zimbabwe and the cartoons and what not,nigeria is worse,our leaders are worse,
like an african leader said(i forget whcih one)the man said"we take 10% of contract sum and people are complaining,they should go to nigeria and see government officials take 100% of contract sum"

Oh, OK, lucabrasi, now I get your point.

Basically:
- You acknowledge the people voted for and want Tsvangarai to be their next leader
- But because Tsvangarai is supported by or is a major choice of the West (Evil people)
- And people like you have a gut feeling that this support by the West might change in the future
- Then the people's wish should be denied to them or prevented from coming to fruitation? Am I right?
- So we should all back off Mugabe? Am I right?
- We should confront the West instead? Am I right?

Busy_body:

Blair categorically and unashamedly stated in the House of Parliament, that the British government were working with the (MDC) to effect regime change, just like they did to Kenya.

Be wiser than other people if you can by all means, but do not tell them so.

Just like they did in Kenya?

Where? When?

Please source or prove?

Sagamite:

Oh, OK, lucabrasi, now I get your point.

Basically:
- You acknowledge the people voted for and want Tsvangarai to be their next leader
- But because Tsvangarai is supported by or is a major choice of the West (Evil people)
- And people like you have a gut feeling that this support by the West might change in the future
- Then the people's wish should be denied to them or prevented from coming to fruitation? Am I right?
- So we should all back off Mugabe? Am I right?
- We should confront the West instead? Am I right?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT- It is a free country, so please let this not stop anyone from having their own right, mind, opinion and belief

. I, alongside Lucabrasi, have the right to ask and are asking why stop at Zimbabwe, if the ridiculous reasons being trumpeted by the WEST is regime change, fraudulent election malpractices, expropriating white farmland and human rights violations? If that is the current and standard and effective multilateral mechanism that is the precursor to sanctioning a country because it had violated international peace and security, why isn’t half the world the subject of similar “smart sanctions” - a US jargon?

Why stop at Zimbabwe?

Why not China, or Libya – the two countries currently doing roaring trade with the US and EU among others, though there is no democracy, or basic human rights observance?

Why not Uganda where President Yoweri Museveni, who introduced the "Movement" system ^{where there is no multiparty politics,} when he seized power after a five-year guerrilla struggle in 1986, and gets away with the arguement that that it is an alternate form of democracy.

Why not Ethiopia where its leader, Meles Zenawi of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front, where elections are rigged, students detained indefinitely, where torture is rife, etc? What happened to the people who believed their votes for the Coalition for Unity and Democratic Party and its leader, Hailu Shawel, were not accounted for at the polls.

Why not Pakistan where the current President, General Pervez MUSHARRAF, came to power through a coup?

Why not Egypt where the general consensus is that presidential elections are predetermined?

Why not the Middle Eastern countries where women are not allowed to vote, and people do not have freedom of speech, where there is torture, etc?

Why not half the world then since they are all equally guilty of one ill or the other? Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

The UK recently called for more economic sanction, Doesn't more mean in addition to? ^{I think I better zip it before some disgruntled element starts pontificating on the basis of my premonition.}

Sagamite:

Just like they did in Kenya?

Where? When?

Please source or prove?

I won't rise to your smarmy attempts at nit-picking.

For detailed transcript on Hansard (House of Commons Daily Debates), feel free to contact Parliament the Stationery Office, a word of warning though, it is not free.

        cheesy but cool