lucabrasi:

its common knowledge that our foreign reserves r lodged in america,i wasnt blaming america for using it to stabilise their economy cause its all our fault

Well, just wanted to be sure you were not trying to slice America into the whole now. I would not put it past you.

lucabrasi:

i don't have a government document because we don't have a freedom of information bill passed into law yet, funny zimbabwe has lol

Funny how Zimbabwe also has a democracy, right Does having something mean same as USING IT as it ought to be used? I don’t get the joke.

lucabrasi:

i didnt miss the chaos in the news and while acknowledging that  south africa sends zims back to their country,the fact remains that a lot of zimbabweans are being officially camped there in spite of south

Officially camped there? What do you mean? As in welcomed?? Where?? I have friends in South Africa, close to the border who can help us verify this.

lucabrasi:

africa's economy,which is quite commendable considering their own citizens are suffering as well which  is the spark that ignited the whole crisis

huh

lucabrasi:
 
it isnt the only true version,but at least theres no western spin to it, they can report what their people feel and in their own words ,they can report even if the united states and others do not agree with it.

So, the many times that the west media has reported over and over on issues even the United States has denied escapes you?  Well, I watch Al Jazeera and I have to say they seem to report about the same version as the BBC on Zimbabwe. What then?? Is Al Jazeera now in on the deal?? I believe I have asked this question over 3 times now.

lucabrasi:
 
remember condoleeza rice made remarks about them in connection to aiding terrorists?

Sure, does that then mean Condoleeza rice was wrong and Al Jazeera was right??  You say Al Jazeera paints the picture the way it’s own viewership, well a majority, see it.  Does that not mean it does exactly what you accuse the western media of doing?? I am waiting for you to denounce it, even as you have the western media, if you really want to be fair.

lucabrasi:
 
its not their only destination,the arabic version  is mainly heard in mid east but the english version is world wide and competing with the likes of cnn and co in just a couple of years, wouldnt u say the growth has been remarkable?shows a lot of american,british,african and the rest are listening to their version of events, just using them to illustrate my point not digressing

What has GROWTH to do with TRUTH? What point are you illustrating?? If a lot of Americans, brits and Africans are listening to Al Jazeera’s version, in addition to CNN and the rest, what has that to do with your idea of truth?? Again, does Al Jazeera’s growth mean truth?? Don’t you think the war in the middle east is biggest contributing to this growth, which seems to have started right after the war did?

davidylan:

Can someone please answer me this burning question - how is Britain interfering with Zimbabwe?

Can I please answer, hope you don't mind me regurgitating my previous post. Here goes;

As long as Tony Blair can take to the stands in Parliament and declare that they would not relent on Mugabe until a regime change happens and have given full backing to the MDC, that is undue inteference.

They are also lobbying Southern African Region to consider further sanctions if Tsvangirai does not win, they are on the throat of Mozambique and South Africa to impose economic blockage on vital import, they are rooting for complete trade embargoes and ban on purchase of goods, they are imploring the South African Government to switch off electricity to the country, they require China ^{(the mitigating reason they are scared of going in)} to give them a day-to-day running commentary on the country.

In addition to the sanctions already in place as mentioned by your honourable friend Debosky, In 2001, the US imposed sanctions ^{(ZIDERA, EO 13288, EO 13391, etcetera)} and isolated Zimbabwe from multilateral lending agencies, such as the IMF, World Bank, and the African Development Bank and were given strict instructions to veto any applications by Zimbabwe for finance, credit facilities, loan rescheduling, and international debt cancellation [b]because the presidential election was a riddled with fraudulent malpractices. This inadvertently had a knock-on effect on the out-of-this-world spiralling rate of inflation being bandied about, it also affected the strength of their currency. Not saying their economy was hunky-dory before the sanctions were imposed, but it has played a devastating part.   

Hope you have not forgotten the helpful link you provided too about Condeleeza Rice justifying why sanctions were imposed on Zimbabwe.  

Part of the reason of Mugabe's distrust of Britain stems from the fact that apart from the apartheid, Britain reneged on the "Lancaster agreement that was promised regarding land appropriation.

Sky Blue:

@lucabrasi i don't think you understood my post. You keep on speaking of britains intervention as if it is the fundamental issue and i just simply don't get it. So are you saying that it is because of britain's intervention that Zimbabweans want Mugabe out? Zimbabweans are not allowed to choose who they want and you say it is because the "democratic options" have not been "exhasuted"? So does the fact that iraq have problems justify the situation in Zimbabwe? If you want to improve at something do you compare yourself with lower standards in order to improve? Why make "the west" and whatever it chooses to do or not do or its so called hypocricy or its stance the fundamental issue when people are dying? So people are still dying in Zimbabwe, does that then make everything justified? What exactly is your stand because as far as i can see it does not connect with this discussion. Please don't take offence, just clarify if you feel you need to do that. How on earth does "the west" becomes fundamental in this affair and other african ones?
Is Mugabe a dictator who keeps on imposing himself on his people? Do the people want him? Do the will of the people count in Zimbabwe? So how on earth does iraq or Nigeria or 'the west'  become a fundamental issue?

its not the fundamental issue but ill ask you shouldnt the zims be allowed to do all that all by themselves?
ill do the answering questions with questions thing and in turn ask you, are you saying that because of the situation in zimbabwe,its justified for britain to now intervene without leaving room for them to go through all their democratic processes?

the reason why iraq was mentiones s because similar thing happened there, a dictator killing his ppl and committing all sorts of atrocities,america and britain intervened because of some perceived vendetta against the dictator on account of doing something to anger them,they use the press to justify them by passing the un and others and removed the dictator,now the country is in shambles and more ppl have died AFTER THEIR SUPPOSED LIBERATION than the amount the dictator has killed altogether, you follow?so on these horrible records alone and others,i dis agree with their meddling
i dont want to go on again about me veering off the discussion because i have stated my stance,and even busy body having read my comments on here just like you has rei terated it again so pls go through her reply
the west have become fundamental in these issue because (ill use iraq again because of its similarities, read above)they have not cleaned up the mess they made in other places and they r coming to create another one again,britain inteffering will not sort things out rather my stance is that the africa union should be allowed to sort things out instead, as for how the west comes into play concerning the rest of africa do i really need to spell it out?
they are fully involved in the conflicts in africa,its either they installed a dictator just for their vested interests who turned around to murder,pillage and the rest of it
or they passively support an illegal government in a part of africa while going all out to crush another without recourse to any form of dialogue to ease the leader out
i can go on and on about the effects of western intervention or meddlesomeness in african affairs, that alone includn their foreign affairs antecedents makes them fundamental as soon as they started taking more than normal interests in zim,
yes mugabe is a dictator,yes some people want him out,yes he is evil and yes the economy is in chaos and yes people are dieing but the fact remains that these same zimbabweans who s will are uppermost should be allowed to sort their problems out,and also their neighbours includn other african countries should be allowed to play the role britain s playing right now and iraq and the west was mentioned by myself for the reasons set out above, nigeria was mentioned because britain and america have more to worry about from the situation in nigeria than zimbabwe so how come they r not giving it same attention?mind u im not calln them out on it just one of the various reasons to show they r hypocrites

@kobojunkie
not shying away from replying the last reply addressed to me but if we r getting into al jazeera and all that,ill first like to ask if its ok to digress from the main topic then ill answer

Sky Blue:

@lucabrasi i don't think you understood my post. You keep on speaking of britains intervention as if it is the fundamental issue and i just simply don't get it.

Britain's intervention is what we are allowed to talk about until Davidylan gives us the go ahead to do otherwise. Do you not know that one of the rules states that it is forbidden to derail a thread.
 

Sky Blue:

Why make "the west" and whatever it chooses to do or not do or its so called hypocricy or its stance the fundamental issue when people are dying? So people are still dying in Zimbabwe, does that then make everything justified? What exactly is your stand because as far as i can see it does not connect with this discussion. Please don't take offence, just clarify if you feel you need to do that. How on earth does "the west" becomes fundamental in this affair and other african ones?

Another thread, another day.

Sky Blue:

Is Mugabe a dictator who keeps on imposing himself on his people? Do the people want him? Do the will of the people count in Zimbabwe? So how on earth does iraq or Nigeria or 'the west'  become a fundamental issue?

Again, another thread, another day. If you can't wait for the ultimate order from Davidylan, why don't you create a thread about any of the issues you have highlighted. My only fear is that you would not get a nay-sayer, only everyone agreeing that yes, people are suffering, and yes, Mugabe is evil. Methinks the only thread that would be interesting would be one that goes by the headline "101 ways to polish off Mugabe".  

@lucrabasi please do not liken what is happening in Zimbabwe to a democracy by saying things like 'they should go through their democratic processes'. What democratic processes?

Sky Blue:

@lucrabasi please do not liken what is happening in Zimbabwe to a democracy by saying things like 'they should go through their democratic processes'. What democratic processes?

You mean this "process"?

lucabrasi:

@kobojunkie
not shying away from replying the last reply addressed to me but if we r getting into al jazeera and all that,ill first like to ask if its ok to digress from the main topic then ill answer

No need answering those on this thread. I was just following you line, but I believe it if of no use to this topic since coverage on there and on western media has been same on this issue

davidylan:

You mean this "process"?

These satirists no go kill person ooo

davidylan:

You mean this "process"?

ROFLMAO!!! Democracy, African style !!! O ga oo!!!

lucabrasi:

i really don't know what you r on about,if you go through both mine and busy body's post, what we have been doing essentially is defending,you gys have been on the attack and im only responding to what you gys put to me,besides when you're discussing african politics, we can do comparisons because we all have the same problem which is leadership so one size fits almost all the major problems

The reason I asked for alignment of basis of comparison was that, part of the fundamentals of your arguments was that "Nigeria was worse than Zimbabwe and yet the west are only attacking Zimbabwe".

Breaking this into two points leave:
1) Nigeria is worse than Zimbabwe
2) Why is the West attacking Zimbabwe more than it attacked Nigeria

To address point (1), I gave you facts and figures about why Nigeria is nowhere close to Zimbabwe (talkless of worse) in economic and political terms. Despite you claiming we were 10 times worse.

To address point (2), I gave you a list of probabilities why the West might have chosen to attack Zimbabwe more and also gave you an insight of when the same West chose to attack Nigeria in almost the same way it is attacking Zimbabwe now when we had a similar leadership (Abasha).

To debate these two points I would think it would be reasonable to expect the arguments to be of recent affairs, not history. But when you addressed point (2) instead of using our recent elections and how the West responded, you had to go back about 20 years under Military dictatorship to compare with Mugarbage's democrazy despite the fact that we have our own democrazy that would show more relevance of your argument if you used it.

If you are going to use history, what the heck, your points would have been stronger if you used the accusers (the West) as you historical example instead of Nigeria's history.

You could easily have pointed to cases of electoral rigging in UK in the 15th century or the fact that Black people were not allowed to vote in the US in the 19th century.

Unfortunately, I am restricting myself to comparison of political violence, intimidation, rigging etc in a democratic environment (Civilian to civilian, military to civilian) that is of recent (last 5 to 10 years) and how the West responded to it.

Governments change (at least in the West  ), hence mentality changes. I am not going to say because the West did this in 1960 then that is also what the current West would do or they should not change now in 2008.

It is not a reasonable argument in my world to say that there is no difference and there would never be any difference in Gordon Brown/Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher/Edward Heath all because they are white and part of a western government. Hence I would expect and look at their policies in a mutually exclusive way because the there would be a chasm in the thinkings of their respective generations.

If I was to use the lame opposite of this argument, then I can as well say there cannot be and there would not be any difference in the political leadership of Awolowo and that of Adedibu (They are both black, from Africa and, heck, from the same tribe), there cannot be and there would not be any difference in the political leadership of IBB and Ribabu (They are both black, from Africa and, heck, from the same tribe).

At least Gordon Brown is Scottish and the last 10 Prime Ministers that have dealt with Mugabe are English. 

lucabrasi:

common now so you really think all democratic options have been exhausted in zimbabwe??in as much as i agree with you that mugabe has done all these things,by britain interfering and america,they have firstly made everything worse than it will have been,  like i said earlier there  are some options which would have caused less hassles and upheavals in zimbabwe,by riling mugabe up with all the needless pressures from britain,america and the press pushing their cases down the throats of their respective citizens, they are making mugabe more stubborn,and also making him have stuffs to latch on to,also as difficult to believe as it is,he has actually gained some anti-west supporters from africa and from his country,if you check many of his past speeches he s made a massive deal of chasing the whites out  and being the great african liberator,that on its own with the pressures,sanctions,media e,t,c wont help

The fact is that it is obvious that democratic options WOULD NOT be explored as was the case in 2000 and 2004. He is even more desperate in 2008 and is obviously willing to do worse than the last 2 elections that he got away with.

Personally, I would not excuse Mugarbage's intimidations and killings with arguments that the West provoked him or made him worse. So are you expecting me to say "well, the west started criticising him, so he only showed his defiance by sending people to beat opposition members to death and rape their wives and daughters with AIDS-infested dicks. So next time you West should better behave yourselves"?

I believe the other options you are alluding to is to persuade Africa itself to challenge Mugarbage.

Good concept, but is it a pragmatic concept. We can't just throw concepts in the air without looking at its merit against other options.

Let me start by putting across the critical success factors of this concept:
1) There are African leaders willing to do this and the main powers (nations and individuals) are willing to do this
2) The main powers (nations and individuals) have enough influence to make a difference
3) The main powers (nations and individuals) have enough credibility to make a difference

The pragmatic part:
1) How many African leaders stood up for democracy in Zimbabwe in 2000 and 2004? Did the SADC not almost pat him on the back at their annual meeting? Heck, how many crisis in Africa (the home of crisis) has the AU resolved? Superheck, how many crisis has the AU even condemned in Africa talkless of act successfully on? So why should the West rely on them again when it is still the same leaders that are on the throne and have not indicated any change in attitude?

2) The main African national powers are: SA, Nigeria, Egypt, Morocco and Kenya. The main African individual powers are: Mandela, Ghaddafi and Kofi Annan.

Out of all these, only SA and Mandela have any influence on Zimbabwe. And SA has shown it would only do camaraderie no matter what under the stupid Mbeki under the pretext of "quiet diplomacy", we only saw a change in attitude when Zuma caned the daft Mbeki in leadership of ANC.

Mandela is too old to ask to take part in this especially as it would involve sustained actions and activities. He is also a bit grateful to ZANU-PF and Mugarbage in his own struggles. Furthermore, he is a wiseman that knows he can not undermine his country's presidency. When everything failed and the SA public joined the criticism, he lent a word or two.

3)
Nigeria: Is it Yaradua with his rigged elections you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?
Egypt: Is it Mubarak that has ruled for 26 years (just 2 years less than Mugarbage) you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?
Morocco: Is it a Monarchy you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's democratic elections?
Kenya: Is it those that rigged Kenya's elections you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?

Ghaddafi: He can't even spell democracy. He doesn't know what it is and might think it is the tool one uses to clean his toilet bowl.
Kofi Annan: He will not call a spade a spade, that is diplomacy. Even Mugarbage would know I can sweep him aside.

So I am sorry, I believe Zimbabweans (lets remember them) were left with the West as their only saviours.

Even if an African nation or leader should take the lead to condemn Mugabe, are you sure you will not be the same person that will call the leader a western STOOGE?

lucabrasi:

nigeria is not in a financial mess??have you been reading the news at all?in spite of the price of a barell of oil,did you hear it in the news nigeria was considering asking opec for financial help or involving private investors in the power thing?thats the present,right from the ibb times nigeria has been in an economic crisis which s just improving with soludo but i don't want to get into that now.

What mess? Having more than $60bn in foreign reserve, when 5 years earlier they were $35bn in debt?
What mess? When they have one of the fastest economic growth rate in the world at present.
What mess? When Direct foreign investment is growing at astronomical rates and is more diversified (Oil, telecoms, banking, steel, agriculture etc).
What mess? When the stock market is becoming more robust and playing a critical part in the economy.

What criteria did you use to arrive at your categorisation of a country (1)in a above average growth phase, (2)is the second biggest economy in Sub-saharan Africa, (3)has current global economic developments in its favour and (4) has loads of cash in reserve is in a financial mess?

Homie, you got me scatching me head.

In regards to your likely 2 criteria I can see above:
Financial help from Opec: Not head of it so don't know the rational behind it.
Private investors in the power thing: Please try and read up on Public Private Partnerships (PPP) and its merit, then you will understand that this request is not a sign of financial distress but a genius approach by governments to improve productivity, reliability and efficiency.

lucabrasi:

hmmm free nigeria press, well dele giwa,george mba,kune ajibade and several pressmen killed will disagree with you from their graves, off the top of my head recent press harrassment the incident of the leadership newspapers, not forgetting that free press you r on about do not have freedom of information bill in existence and 99% of these papers are owned by these same nigerian politicians so show me an editorial board that will criticise their  chairman.

Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

Secondly, I don't see any law restricting people in setting up their own papers and reporting news as they see fit in Nigeria. Neither do I see the Nigerian journalists complaining about any restrictions of recent that is restricting them. Go to Zimbabwe and see the opposite.

lucabrasi:

i guess u should go see what happened during the abiola riots and how many lives of young men were lost,university under grads,old and young right through the abacha times and thats summarising it,you're on about the new style of rigging where our own nigeria politician always wins 99% with disregard for voters feelings at least mugabe allowed a run off,ours don't

Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

lucabrasi:

yes they did say the election was rigged but for how long,and how far did they push it,considering a good percentage of their oil is coming from us and we being considerably bigger than zim amongst other obvious reasons wonder why they gave up on us and left us to do our thing while on zim's case

Please refer to my list of "Probabilities". It is exactly the way they left Mugarbage in 2000 and 2004. I believe he did not have oil then, I may be wrong.

lucabrasi:

not been raped??well u need to go find out what happened when the army raided the niger delta during the military regime of ibb/abacha lead by a captain(forgotten his name)

Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

lucabrasi:

well several hundreds died during the mko abiola riots alone,niger delta and are still dieing, the fact that u don't hear is because bbc,fox and the rest didnt make it a rolling news see my point?

Conjecture. It was the main news on CNN, BBC, FOX, CBS, FFFFF, BOBOBO or whatever. THEY REPORTED EVERYTHING!

Abiola was influential and had global friends so please don't lie. It was a global news and THEY REPORTED EVERYTHING!

lucabrasi:

wow dude,the opposittion were not harrassed??not taken to court on treason charges??don't even let me start, what d u think ken saro wiwa and the 8 were charged for,whats happennign now if not harrassement of the highest order?if i go into opposition harrasement in nigeria ill take wayyy too much space and not be done,besides what opposition do we have?they v been crushed at least we know of zims opposition

Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.
And Nigeria was under so much pressure, we were thrown out of the Commonwealth. So what is your point?

lucabrasi:

they blocked the third term because atiku wanted power for himself,its simply politiciand fighting for their interests!

i can name some authentic made in nigeria mugabes if you want ibb,abacha,obj and these r just the president/head of states,lets not stard with the governors,e.t.c our own ministers do magic by drawing money out of banks on public holidays and she s still in her post or like abacha that ordered for foreign currency like a pizza or chinese take out,even idi amin didnt do half of their excesses

Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

Please don't degrade this debate. I hope you realise that Western government and media would have only limited time and resources? So they can only criticise the heads of state, not your local government chairmen or your salvation pastors that milk you of your tithe. That is left to you local leaders and the congression, not the Gordon Brown.

lucabrasi:

@davidlan
im not supporting mugabe,read through my postings, is this agreeing with the west meddling in zimbabwe's affairs supporting mugabe?
is britain and his ally making the situation worse helping the zimbabweans?

all im saying in summary is that zims can handle their crisis internally and if need be with the african union who are capable intervening, its a sovereign state and not under the british anymore,think about it if mugabe was that useless and a dictator and bla bla to the british how come it took them till now to strip him of his knighthood?and how come it took them this long to face the problem head on?how come they r not addressing bigger problems in other parts of africa?
sagamite said because people are dieing but are people not dieing of conflics,famine in other parts of africa?i would have though priorities will be arranged on the order of importance and urgency

I have already addressed the AU part above.

In my attempt in getting the logic here, what I am getting is (trend):

1) They should solve all problems
2) If they don't solve all problems then they should not solve any because there would be one we can point and say "how come they are trying to solve this problem when they are not attempting to solve that problem". 

This is despite the fact the foreign aid to Africa by Britain and US has more that doubled in the last 5 years. Britain as even set up a committee they fund but is run by African dignitaries like Annan and Iweala-Nkonjo to help develop Africa. They have UK government funded Private Equity firms (CDC) to help with infrastructure. But anti-western hatred blocks those kind of facts and I guess the argument we would have is "how come they are just doing it now", "how come they have not set up something to address that other problem". 

lucabrasi:

well the whole point of being a sovereign state is because a nation can handle its problems,apart from the present clashes of zim immigrants and south africans,dyu know how many people die there?there was a stage when girls were raped right in the daytime and please don't tell me circumstances are diffrent because death is death,i don't see the press highlighing these but then they wont seeing as the whites are comfortable in their properties side by side in same neighbourhood with the priviledged few blacks,the british installed some key people to head the police and other sensitive positions, go see the disaster thats blown up in their faces but of course we know that wont be reported.

all im saying is there are other places in africa that need all these attention,where situations are worse and more people are dieing,and they r not acting as they should in these places, its like leaving a dog bite to treating pimples,

they did not act in darfur because they had no vested interests,same thing in rwanda,now you're turning the whole thing on its head and putting a positive spin on it , common man!!

hmmmn, i get what you mean now,so tell me are all these conflict ridden african nations doing a better job to warrant britain and its allies not interffering?
ill use nigeria as an example yet again and say we have single digit inflatn,we have capitalisation and all the rest of it, has it translated into a better life for the average nigerian?

im saying all these are pretty bad and pathetic,sure but not enough to get involved with between how come it took the brit govt untill now to strip him of his knighthood, just a thought

This arguments are becoming more absurd.

Comparing riots in SA to election violence in Zimbabwe?

You didn't see the western media report it?

Why should they CONTINUE to focus on it:
1) When authorities swung into action immediate and quelled the crime.
2) The leadership condemned it
3) It was not an event with a vested interest. Only another case of insanity of humanity?

How does this compare to Zimbabwe? Na real wah for your comparisons.

If they continue focussing on the SA riots till today, it is the same you that would say they are just trying to make Black people look bad so that white SAcans can takeover.

Busy_body:

POLITE REQUEST TO SAGAMITE

Can you please tell your comrade (KJ) that NAIRALAND is an open democratic forum with people of differing opinion, so not every one has to have the same view. Could you also tell he/she/it that this debate centres around Lucabrassi’s stance that Britain should stop their know-towing and get their nose out of the trout .i.e They should BUTT OUT. THIS IS HIS BONE OF CONTENTION HERE. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.

Can you also tell (KJ) that on a Britain-butt-out-of-Zimbabwe debate, saying they don‘t care if any Britain is butting in, and asking the question why is the focus on Britain, means that either they do not grasp the topic of the debate or that they are just deliberately on this thread to divert attention and change the topic to HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT THE WEST WHEN NIGERIA IS F’UCKED UP. Either way, it is not smart. Feelings should be left at the door.

Busy_Body you have made it clear that you are only taking this as a joke. Some of us here don't find it as a joke to see other people being killed or suppressed EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT BLACK.

So my advise is that you should open a joke thread somewhere else where those that want to joke can join you. Seriousness has already taken over this one.

Also, please add IF to my statement. It was a typo. "Even though if they are wrong".

Enough of the 21 questions already. So what if lucabrassi has a different opinion to yours? What gives you the right to lord your opinion over his?

Sagamite:


The reason I asked for alignment of basis of comparison was that, part of the fundamentals of your arguments was that "Nigeria was worse than Zimbabwe and yet the west are only attacking Zimbabwe".

Breaking this into two points leave:
1) Nigeria is worse than Zimbabwe

To address point (1), I gave you facts and figures about why Nigeria is nowhere close to Zimbabwe (talkless of worse) in economic and political terms. Despite you claiming we were 10 times worse.

His write-up gave reasons why he felt Mugabe was ten times worse than our leaders, not why Nigeria is ten times worse than Zimbabwe, learn to read between the lines. His only crime was that he gave 12 reasons as opposed to 10, namely;

1) Mugabe does not know-tow to the west like our leader.

2) Mugabe passed the FOI bill, something we have not been able to achieve despite the fact that we gained our freedom donkey years ago.

3) Our currency is not much better, considering the resources and opportunities available to us.  

Mugabe is bad, but in terms of badness, he still has a long way to go when it comes to:

4) Abacha

5) IBB

6) Abdusalam

Yes, Mugabe does not allow opposition, but our leaders assasinated;

7) Bola Ige

Ken Saro Wiwa and the 8

9) Dele Giwa

10) Maman Vatsa

11) Mko Abiola, whom we remember later went on to be jailed and killed despite the whole world's spotlight on the coverage of the election.

12) Tsvangirai, on the other hand is not dead yet.

His only crime here is that he gave 12 reasons instead of the 10 he claimed, so what do you want from him, A pound of flesh? A medal? His head on a plate? I am open to offers if you can think of a worse punishment that befits the crime.  

In a bid to discredit his opinion, you went on to quote a taking-the-p write-up about "Access to Information & Protection of Privacy Act, from a Country whose own law is also ridiculed by the subjects intended for.

Do you know that you are not allowed to use reasonable force to defend your property? i.e if a burglar comes to your house with a gun or knife, you manage to overpower him and use his knife to defend yourself and he gets hurt, you are liable to go to jail and have to pay him compensation yes, you are not allowed to take a knife from your kitchen to defend yourself too?

Do you know that you are not allowed to use barbed wire with jagged edge as security incase you injure the thief?

Do you know that if a burglar comes to your house, gets locked in by mistake, and you happen to be on holiday, you have to pay compensation to him for lost feelings?

Do you know that a policewoman sued the Metropolitan Police for discrimination and won on the basis that they did not put into consideration that she had breasts so she should be subjected to the same numbers of press-ups as men (100) daily?

Do you know that peadophiles are demanding their human rights to be able to sleep with their sexual preference children and babies?  (okay that is in America, but you get the drift)

Even the article that Davidylan proferred in his post had Condoleeza Rice on record that the reason America (George W.Bush JNR) imposed sanctions on Zimbabwe in 2001 was as a result of the rigged election.  

Sagamite:


2) Why is the West attacking Zimbabwe more than it attacked Nigeria

To address point (2), I gave you a list of probabilities why the West might have chosen to attack Zimbabwe more and also gave you an insight of when the same West chose to attack Nigeria in almost the same way it is attacking Zimbabwe now when we had a similar leadership (Abasha).

You gave probabilities, I gave cogent reasons from the horses' mouth (the axis of evil trio ) Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and George Bush.  , but unlike some we know , I have not said anywhere that your point is invalid, disconnected or connected to a burning bush house[/b]

Sagamite:


To debate these two points I would think it would be reasonable to expect the arguments to be of recent affairs, not history. But when you addressed point (2) instead of using our recent elections and how the West responded, you had to go back about 20 years under Military dictatorship to compare with Mugarbage's democrazy despite the fact that we have our own democrazy that would show more relevance of your argument if you used it.

If you are going to use history, what the heck, your points would have been stronger if you used the accusers (the West) as you historical example instead of Nigeria's history.

His bone of contention centred around two points like you rightly mentioned, the WEST and NIGERIA, so why should he talk about one and not the other? So that you could easily dismiss his input out of hand as harebrained and half-measure?

Sagamite:

You could easily have pointed to cases of electoral rigging in UK in the 15th century or the fact that Black people were not allowed to vote in the US in the 19th century.

Another thread, another day. You already understand he was debating around two points so no need for wild speculation and the cheap point scoring?

Sagamite:

Unfortunately, I am restricting myself to comparison of political violence, intimidation, rigging etc in a democratic environment (Civilian to civilian, military to civilian) that is of recent (last 5 to 10 years) and how the West responded to it.

Your loss. By the way, your argument might not be convincing and get dismissed out of hand as lacking in substance. Not that anything's changed though.

Sagamite:

Governments change (at least in the West  ), hence mentality changes. I am not going to say because the West did this in 1960 then that is also what the current West would do or they should not change now in 2008.[/b]It is not a reasonable argument in my world to say that there is no difference and there would never be any difference in Gordon Brown/Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher/Edward Heath all because they are white and part of a western government. Hence I would expect and look at their policies in a mutually exclusive way because the there would be a chasm in the thinkings of their respective generations.

Why not? What has changed? Isn't New Labour, Conservatory in disguise, just more sly?

Sagamite:

[b]If I was to use the lame opposite of this argument, then I can as well say there cannot be and their would not be any difference in the political leadership of Awolowo and that of Adedibu, there cannot be and their would not be any difference in the political leadership of IBB and Ribabu. They are both black, from Africa and, heck, from the same tribe.

Why not, what's stopping you? It's a free country remember? As long as Nigeria is a democratic country.

Sagamite:

Busy_Body you have made it clear that you are only taking this as a joke. Some of us here don't find it as a joke to see other people being killed or suppressed EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT BLACK.

So my advise is that you should open a joke thread somewhere else where those that want to joke can join you. Seriousness has already taken over this one.

Also, please add IF to my statement. It was a typo. "Even though if they are wrong".

WHO SAID KILLING PEOPLE WAS A JOKE? WHO JOKED ABOUT KILLING PEOPLE? BEFORE YOU START DIAGNOSING SERIOUSNESS, ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT COMING DOWN WITH ANYTHING YOURSELF? ARE YOU SURE YOUR TEMPERATURE IS FINE, YOU BETTER GO AND GET YOURSELF TESTED AGAIN? AND GET YOURSELF A HUMOUR TRANSPLANT WHILST YOU ARE AT IT

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR, IT'S YOUR LOSS. I HAVE TOLD YOU AND YOUR COHORTS THAT IF YOU WANT TO START A THREAD DISCUSSING THE ILL TREATMENT OF THE ZIMS OR WHATNOT, BE MY GUEST, NAIRALAND HAS NOT RAN OUT OF WHITE SPACE YET, GO AND START ANOTHER THREAD.

As long as Davidylan posted some caricatures and the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY ET. AL DEFINES CARICATURE AS comic exaggeration: a drawing, description, or performance that exaggerates somebody's or something's characteristics for humorous or satirical effect. WE are at liberty to see it as such IF WE CHOOSE. IT IS ALL IN GOOD HUMOUR.

UNTIL DAVIDYLAN SAYS OTHERWISE If you can't wait for his decision, go and [i]"bu igi je" Ha ha, na wetin, abeg commot for road make I see better jare. What is it?

lucabrasi:

hmmm,here we go with the verbal barbs, was wondering when it ll start
intervene,meddle whatever you want to call it,doesnt matter ok?
yar adua's nta is not on zimbabwe 24/7,neither is the national focus on zimbabwe 24/7 the nigerian executive and legislative arms commented on it and spoke out against it in strong terms which they should,i don't see any mp besides britains advocating for millitary intervention, between there r a lot of dictatorship in africa even now

Have you wondered whether this might be due to NTA's incompetence?

Is it also interference when BBC is the first to pick up riots in Kano or another plane crash in Nigeria? Is that just not NTA's incompetence?

Do you have access and have watched Dutch, German, Irish, Italian, Spanish, Greek TV news before you came to your conclusion about what MPs are saying? I doubt.

Sagamite:

Have you wondered whether this might be due to NTA's incompetence?

Is it also interference when BBC is the first to pick up riots in Kano or another plane crash in Nigeria? Is that just not NTA's incompetence?

Do you have access and have watched Dutch, German, Irish, Italian, Spanish, Greek TV news before you came to your conclusion about what MPs are saying? I doubt.

first i wont go back to addressing your questions written above because busy body as done more than sufficient justice to them all one by one in its entirety.

if nta's incompetent,is ait incompetent as well?channels tv,and the rest incompetent as well?how r bout the nigerian executive,legislative arms,
i dont have acess to them and even if i did,i dont understand these languages, however i agree with you if you r to say they r all reporting on mugabe,but pray tell me why wouldnt they do?are they that diffrent from britain?im not accussing them of anything but if u want to bring them into the equation then tell me why i should be suprised if they r toeing the same line?
btw i still at am a loss why you would think busy body s takn it as a joke as from what i have read of her comments,she has not joked about any part of the zimbabwean issue or any issues addressed on here unless you have something personal against her, just wondering,
people have diffrent ways of putting their points across and ligh hearted humour is one of them,your own method is sly verbal barbs,the convener of this post used caricatures of mugabe and the zimbabwean currency,some use music and the rest,

lucabrasi:

first i wont go back to addressing your questions written above because busy body as done more than sufficient justice to them all one by one in its entirety.

if nta's incompetent,is ait incompetent as well?channels tv,and the rest incompetent as well?how r bout the nigerian executive,legislative arms,
i don't have acess to them and even if i did,i don't understand these languages, however i agree with you if you r to say they r all reporting on mugabe,but pray tell me why wouldnt they do?are they that diffrent from britain?im not accussing them of anything but if u want to bring them into the equation then tell me why i should be suprised if they r toeing the same line?

You completely missed the point he was trying to make there @Lucabrasi. Do go back and read his post please.

Kobojunkie:

You completely missed the point he was trying to make there @Lucabrasi. Do go back and read his post please.

i didnt miss his points,though i might have gone overboard, the point i was making is that we have duplicate electronic media who are doing same or even a better job than nta is doing, remember it was ait though not a government station that covered the 3rd term legislative bill life,same as the various probes e.t.c thats why i mentioned them as well as nta the most important is that i addressed his post to me u go back and read my reply

Sagamite:

The fact is that it is obvious that democratic options WOULD NOT be explored as was the case in 2000 and 2004. He is even more desperate in 2008 and is obviously willing to do worse than the last 2 elections that he got away with.

Premonitions, premonitions, as some learned friends would say.

Sagamite:

Personally, I would not excuse Mugarbage's intimidations and killings with arguments that the West provoked him or made him worse. . .

Who did? This thread is only 6 pages long, care to dredge up a particular post whereby someone justified Mugabe's killing? If you can accomplish this mission, I would eat my shorts. 

Saying the WEST has ulterior motives and should back off, surely does not mean the same as saying the WEST provoked him. 

Sagamite:

I believe the other options you are alluding to is to persuade Africa itself to challenge Mugarbage.

If their own house was in order, why not? Why not let them exhaust all the options out there before barging in? But then it would be easier for you to find a camel that can pass through the eye of a needle before you find such leader in the Africa that we have today.

Sagamite:

Nigeria: Is it Yaradua with his rigged elections you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?
Egypt: Is it Mubarak that has ruled for 26 years (just 2 years less than Mugarbage) you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?
Morocco: Is it a Monarchy you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's democratic elections?
Kenya: Is it those that rigged Kenya's elections you want the West to ask to criticise Zimbabwe's elections?
Ghaddafi: He can't even spell democracy. He doesn't know what it is and might think it is the tool one uses to clean his toilet bowl.
Kofi Annan: He will not call a spade a spade, that is diplomacy. Even Mugarbage would know I can sweep him aside.
So I am sorry, I believe Zimbabweans (lets remember them) were left with the West as their only saviours.

This, my dear, leads us to the issue at hand, Why should the WEST be the saviour of the Zimbabweans only, if the reason they want to go in is for regime change, human rights violation, and election malpractice? Like Lucabrassi said, death is death.

You don't say     

Is the life of the Zimbabweans, worth more than that of a Nigerian?

Is the life of the Zimbabwean worth more than the life of a Darfurian?

Is the life of a Zimbabwean worth more than the life of a Kenyan national?

Does the blood of the Zimbabwean have pure liquid gold cursing through its veins?

Is Zimbabwean, like Israel in the Bible, the chosen race/nation?

lucabrasi:

first i wont go back to addressing your questions written above because busy body as done more than sufficient justice to them all one by one in its entirety.

if nta's incompetent,is ait incompetent as well?channels tv,and the rest incompetent as well?how r bout the nigerian executive,legislative arms,
i don't have acess to them and even if i did,i don't understand these languages, however i agree with you if you r to say they r all reporting on mugabe,but pray tell me why wouldnt they do?are they that diffrent from britain?im not accussing them of anything but if u want to bring them into the equation then tell me why i should be suprised if they r toeing the same line?
between i still at am a loss why you would think busy body s takn it as a joke as from what i have read of her comments,she has not joked about any part of the zimbabwean issue or any issues addressed on here unless you have something personal against her, just wondering,
people have diffrent ways of putting their points across and ligh hearted humour is one of them,your own method is sly verbal barbs,the convener of this post used caricatures of mugabe and the zimbabwean currency,some use music and the rest,

Don’t even bother to refer to Busy_body. You want to be associated with her rants? She is a regular goofaholic who consistent ramp-up inane points which she obviously has not been smart enough to verify before she vomits it. And when people disprove these points with facts and figures, she would leech up to her fundamental human rights to freedom of speech/difference of opinion without any shame about the quality of or the correctness of her arguments, shrug her shoulders that her inane points has been discredited, move on and vomit more inane points. Her level of debating with facts and logic is too low to even be debating with my body waste.

That aside I don’t think Busy_body responded to most of your howlers. The are a lot of goofs I think you would still have to respond to on your own.

1) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is in financial mess. I think you got your self into this goof because you don’t inform yourself enough on financial news. If you did, then you would know that PPP is the vogue in public financial arrangements in the world today. Busy_body has not even made a sentence to refer to this so please don’t avoid defending you GOOF by hiding under the pretext she has addressed it. What you are trying to do is called "Jumping logical reasoning bail". Don't jump bail!

2) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is worse than Zimbabwe in any Economic or Political terms. I have listed the facts and logic of financial terms a country is judged on, I really don’t know how you can challenge it without sophism and conjecture which is what you used when you made the wrong assertion in the first place. And on political grounds, you could not come up with solid incidences of political violence or killings in the last decade to compare with Zimbabwe’s political brutality. We have had 3 elections of recent, compare it with Zimbabwe's elections. Your resort to quoting NON-POLITICAL killings 20 years ago is pure evidence of you attempt to grasp water whilst sinking in the ocean of your own discredited arguments.

3) It is a major league GOOF to say that Nigeria’s media is more restricted than Zimbabwe’s media when Zim’s press are restricted by government laws that assess them every year before they can get a licence to continue work. It is another evidence that you base your arguments on conjectures without looking for the basic facts that would trip your arguments. I found the facts so easily.

Apologies to Sagamite , _{for want of repeating myself ad nauseum}, until Davidylan says otherwise, I say roll on, let the games begin.

According to the Chronicles of David, Saga, and co, whomever proclaims the slightest interest in anti-west mentality is guilty of being a supporter of despotism, is wicked and heartless, and what not.

Not being one to resist a challenge, I have taken it upon myself to root out the anti-west lurkers in our mist.  

I know hell would have to freeze over before I come up trumps from KJ's camp, so I am not holding my breath. Below are the ones I have been able to dredge up so far.

Sagamite :

Well I just try my best to make things as simple as possible by being objective, use facts and logic, and give appropraite weighting to different issues based on priority.

There is no way in hell I would be talking about the West intervention patterns (even though it is wrong) . . .

                                                 _gulps

davidylan:

The Problem with Zimbabwe is a microcosm of the problem in Africa.
The whole problem is not Mugabe alone however. White Zimbabweans never consider themselves Zimbabweans, most of them consider themselves British citizens first and foremost and are only using illegally acquired lands to improve their own fortunes. After Mandela came into power in SA, thousands of white South Africans literarily left the country for England. As long as Mugabe left the white farmers alone, he was the darling of the "international community" despite his dictatorial tendencies.

Am I seeing what I'm seeing, No, my eyesight must be deceiving me. I guess I owe an apology to KJ   for questioning her eyesight, unbeknown to me that it was mine that was faulty and corroded.  

davidylan:

Unfortunately, Africa remains the only continent that is still being dictated to by foreign interests. The same foreign interests who are the reason for her backwardness in the first place.

                                                 _gulps

davidylan:

Slapping sanctions against Zimbabwe is most unfortunate as the those who will feel the pinch the most are innocent Zimbabweans who are just unfortunate to be born in that country.

My eyesight are definitely playing  tricks on me. A mere apology to KJ would not do, I need to invoke the physical presence of the elders in the house too.

What sanctions? How can the common citizen feel the impact of a travel-ban sanction imposed on Mugabe and it's cohorts only?

davidylan:

Zimbabwe recently withdrew from the commonwealth to the consternation of many South African neighbours.
Mugabe may have done the right thing at the wrong time, he is right that some nations are more equal than others.

The commonwealth has outlived it's usefullness, it started and has remained a master servant relationship between the England and her former colonies and an avenue for the British to exert undue control over the affairs of former African colonies. The commonwealth has served little or no purpose to it's African constituents and thus must be scrapped.
. . .

Shivers me timbers. You don't say. Is it my head spinning or am I caught up in a tornado, whatever the case may be, I am not playing any games anymore. I rest my case.

Sagamite:

Don’t even bother to refer to Busy_body. You want to be associated with her rants? She is a regular goofaholic who consistent ramp-up inane points which she obviously has not been smart enough to verify before she vomits it. And when people disprove these points with facts and figures, she would leech up to her fundamental human rights to freedom of speech/difference of opinion without any shame about the quality of or the correctness of her arguments, shrug her shoulders that her inane points has been discredited, move on and vomit more inane points. Her level of debating with facts and logic is too low to even be debating with my body waste.

That aside I don’t think Busy_body responded to most of your howlers. The are a lot of goofs I think you would still have to respond to on your own.

1) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is in financial mess. I think you got your self into this goof because you don’t inform yourself enough on financial news. If you did, then you would know that PPP is the vogue in public financial arrangements in the world today. Busy_body has not even made a sentence to refer to this so please don’t avoid defending you GOOF by hiding under the pretext she has addressed it. What you are trying to do is called "Jumping logical reasoning bail". Don't jump bail!

2) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is worse than Zimbabwe in any Economic or Political terms. I have listed the facts and logic of financial terms a country is judged on, I really don’t know how you can challenge it without sophism and conjecture which is what you used when you made the wrong assertion in the first place. And on political grounds, you could not come up with solid incidences of political violence or killings in the last decade to compare with Zimbabwe’s political brutality. We have had 3 elections of recent, compare it with Zimbabwe's elections. Your resort to quoting NON-POLITICAL killings 20 years ago is pure evidence of you attempt to grasp water whilst sinking in the ocean of your own discredited arguments.

3) It is a major league GOOF to say that Nigeria’s media is more restricted than Zimbabwe’s media when Zim’s press are restricted by government laws that assess them every year before they can get a licence to continue work. It is another evidence that you base your arguments on conjectures without looking for the basic facts that would trip your arguments. I found the facts so easily.

STOP CRYING WOLF. Though I tried to avoid partaking in this debate to no avail, I have been able to back up my facts, rants to you, with substantial proof. What have you done, apart from speculating and dilly-dallying. Did you not recently state that the WEST is wrong, as we have been trying to get through your thick skull all along? How is the WEST's intervention of imposing further sanctions by switching off electricity, imposing trade embargoes, etc going to help the plight of the common man?

Was it not you, in another thread that stated that;

Sagamite:

. . . When you are in government, you have to be very intelligent to be able to assess your local and global environment to understand the present state of issues, the drivers of the issues, how this drivers are changing, what are the drivers impact and how your response would impact the current state and the drivers. . .

Can you pass this message on to the WEST too, because their adopting the "we are going to impose further sanctions - which is going to affect the Zims more" stance, simply means that they don't care about the current state and only care about the land that was taken off the whites. Their “further sanction” stance, really does makes you question what their real motive is, doesn’t it?

Wasn't it you that also said;

Sagamite:

Breached agreement or no breach agreement does not mean a President should carry out actions that would destroy the economy of his country.
. . .

So you agree it’s fair too to say that the breach or no breach, does not mean the WEST should carry carry out actions that would destroy the economy of the country.

Saying otherwise simply implies that you endorse the “two wrongs makes things right” stance. 


One minute you dismiss me out of hand as a joker, the next you are telling me I am prone to goofing. Why don't you make up your mind. Sorry I forgot the humour transplant you are sheduled in for is not due yet.

If I have been goofing since like you said, how come I have been able to answer all questions put to me so far which includes, What sanction is Zimbabwe under apart from the travel imposition? Why is Zimbabwe buckling under the sanctions compared to Cuba? Where did I get my proof Britain wants to get involved stance from? [i]to mention a few. Feel free to trawl through the thread, if your memory is failing you, and if you find any question that I have left unanswered, then don't hesitate to let me know.     [/i]

Don't you think is is a bit rich of you calling someone a goofaholic, when you post a data stating that in 2003, £1 was being exchanged for 127 naira.  Osi o da ni ile pako.

Sagamite:

Don’t even bother to refer to Busy_body. You want to be associated with her rants? She is a regular goofaholic who consistent ramp-up inane points which she obviously has not been smart enough to verify before she vomits it. And when people disprove these points with facts and figures, she would leech up to her fundamental human rights to freedom of speech/difference of opinion without any shame about the quality of or the correctness of her arguments, shrug her shoulders that her inane points has been discredited, move on and vomit more inane points. Her level of debating with facts and logic is too low to even be debating with my body waste.

That aside I don’t think Busy_body responded to most of your howlers. The are a lot of goofs I think you would still have to respond to on your own.

1) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is in financial mess. I think you got your self into this goof because you don’t inform yourself enough on financial news. If you did, then you would know that PPP is the vogue in public financial arrangements in the world today. Busy_body has not even made a sentence to refer to this so please don’t avoid defending you GOOF by hiding under the pretext she has addressed it. What you are trying to do is called "Jumping logical reasoning bail". Don't jump bail!

ill disregard the first paragraph and jump straight in to address the "perceived goofs" once and for all lets do the first one
first of all please spare me the financial jargons , ppp,monetisation,capitalisation bla bla bla how has that translated into regular plate of eba and one piece of meat for the average nigerian??

also i think you should go look at our stock market and see whats going on there, first of all in case you dont know, mrs head of stock exchange has been accused of insider trading and when confronted during the tail end of obj government she ran out of the room and shouted you be witch o at the guy, as funny as it sounds,she has not come out to deny it, that she used some of the stock exchange proceeds for pdp campaign,she s involved in insider trading,price fixing , so with the stock exchange being the back bone of an economy will u say linking the head even if the allegations are partly true inspires confidence in investors??

hope you have heard people talking of the nigerian stock exchange nearing meltdown,

now to that famous recapitalisation of the banks , apart from having stronger banks what other promises have they kept which they made prior to recap??how has it strenghtened the economy and all this is IN SPITE OF A BARELL OF OIL BEING AT ITS HIGHEST

how will any ppp work if the south south is not stable?the nation is in the clutches of the oligarchy?we have a one party nation?that is not inspiring confidence for any private partnership apart from briefcase contractors who transfer the bulk of their funds abroad as soon as it gets into their accounts and the likes of tinubu and co who front with some multi nationals they own,

Sagamite:





2) It is a major league GOOF to say Nigeria is worse than Zimbabwe in any Economic or Political terms. I have listed the facts and logic of financial terms a country is judged on, I really don’t know how you can challenge it without sophism and conjecture which is what you used when you made the wrong assertion in the first place. And on political grounds, you could not come up with solid incidences of political violence or killings in the last decade to compare with Zimbabwe’s political brutality. We have had 3 elections of recent, compare it with Zimbabwe's elections. Your resort to quoting NON-POLITICAL killings 20 years ago is pure evidence of you attempt to grasp water whilst sinking in the ocean of your own discredited arguments.

ill continue with why i think nigeria is worse,as bad and as evil as mugabe is,he has not done the adedibu neither has he declared like the pdp charman they will rule for 1000 years and making do their vow,dyu know how many people died in zaki biam during obj's government??a whole village was razed to the ground just because of a single man lt gen victor malu go find that out,go find out how many people have been killed in the south south who are innocent civillians without as much as a sorry during obj s tenure not including yar adua'syou ask me to show you evidence that we r not worse than zimbabwe in economic terms and i ask you to show me what is working in economic terms in nigeria, my saying that in spite of the price of a barell of oil approaching 150dollars is enough to blow your argument to smithereens, and pls dont insult me by saying mtn and gsm
and lastly you might think the political assasinations going up and down nigeria is not much because you dont know any of them,but trust me their families feel as strongly as the zimbabweans who have lost loved ones.apart from the bola ige whose killer is in full view but the government is not doing anything because he is priviledged,marshall harry whose killers are in full view, funso williams the same thing amongst so many others, tell me where these calibre of people have been killed in zimbabwe,as early as a couple of days ago there was an assasination in either bayelsa/cross river,there was another attempt in ibadan and thats off the top of my head,the fact that nigerians are not generally violent or millitant like other parts of africa doesnt mean that worse things have not happened btw, these few i mentioned are not 20 yrs ago and purely political

Sagamite:







3) It is a major league GOOF to say that Nigeria’s media is more restricted than Zimbabwe’s media when Zim’s press are restricted by government laws that assess them every year before they can get a licence to continue work. It is another evidence that you base your arguments on conjectures without looking for the basic facts that would trip your arguments. I found the facts so easily.

you keep on saying im basing my facts on conjecture,for any informed person following the nigerian political scene,its as clear as day especially if you know people who are politicians in nigeria,nothing is hidden whtever you r not clear with you dont need to go far scroll down the politics section on here or ask,its a pity that we dont have a culture of keeping verifiable records yet in nigeria,but people will readily avail you of whatever you want to know so pls spare me,
hmmm i see, so between a press that is muffled and a press where virtually 99% is owned by these same corrupt politicians mainly to selfishly promote their selfish agendas which is fairer??and the remaining single government station you have said it yourself that they r incompetent,so that means they dont even have a clue, apart from that they toe the government line to the letter so theres even no need to muffle them, go check the nta and they have not dedicated up to 30 mins to the niger delta conflicts happening or anything that will put the government in good light,why dyu think tonnie iredia th nta dg was removed??
i dont see the facts you found so easily here,all i see are assertions from you which are not verified as well, you equally bas your arguments on conjectures too and forcing it down my throat or trying to make me believe it doesnt make it fact

Sagamite:

What mess? Having more than $60bn in foreign reserve, when 5 years earlier they were $35bn in debt?
What mess? When they have one of the fastest economic growth rate in the world at present.
What mess? When Direct foreign investment is growing at astronomical rates and is more diversified (Oil, telecoms, banking, steel, agriculture etc).
What mess? When the stock market is becoming more robust and playing a critical part in the economy.

well if having 60 billion in reserves equates to the nigerian economy being in strong shape then im lol here, was that as a result of strong economic policies or just plain old increase in the price of oil??
lets assume that it was as a result of our own gordon brown or whaever,how has that translated into a stronger economy?the price of the dollar and pound are still same give or take a few naira up or down depending on the time of the year over more than ten years now.
yes they have the fastest growing economy again because of the oil,and because of recapitalisation and people like me foolishly rushing in headlong with our money to the stock market, and DONT YOU DARE USE THAT WORD AT PRESENT PLS, untill you have gone through the stock exchange AT PRESENT and i don't mean the past few days i men weeks and months.
what direct foreign investment mr man??what foreign investment?oil??yes and we see whats happening in the niger delta clap for yourself, sooooo stable, right??plsss, told you not to mention telecoms as part of a stronger economy please don't insult me abeg,
what banking, the banking that s in dissarray??they r all floating with money laundering for politicians why dyu think uba is in trouble with the american govt??
tell me what the banks have done to strenghten the economy first before i answer your question on that nigerian bank strenghtening economy lol
you r pissing me off now, agriculture
i wont even reply that one about robust stock exchange, its not my fault if you can't click on the stock exchange section of nairaland and see whats happening

Sagamite:


What criteria did you use to arrive at your categorisation of a country (1)in a above average growth phase, (2)is the second biggest economy in Sub-saharan Africa, (3)has current global economic developments in its favour and (4) has loads of cash in reserve is in a financial mess?

Homie, you got me scatching me head.





.

honestly i can't give you any answer to all that because they r just feel good facts if they r not equating to lifting the living standards of baba basira the panel beater or iya iyabo the food seller under the bridge,i never said nigeria was not rich i said we are in a worse economic situation,apart from gsm and cash point(don't let me even start on the new c/c fraud that s going on in nigeria without checks)how has these feel good facts you r reeling out made the economy stronger
i don't want central bank figures please,its like showing me a nigerian bank statement or birth cerificate and demand i accept it as the truth when i know it can be conjured up in oluwole
so u got me scratching my head real bad too

Sagamite:


In regards to your likely 2 criteria I can see above:
Financial help from Opec: Not head of it so don't know the rational behind it.
Private investors in the power thing: Please try and read up on Public Private Partnerships (PPP) and its merit, then you will understand that this request is not a sign of financial distress but a genius approach by governments to improve productivity, reliability and efficiency.

ok then i suggest you ask people who follow the news about the opec story and by the way the rational behind it is that it the only other option is to dip their fangs into that foreign reserves you keep going on about
im not well versed in economics and that but i know enough to tell what public private partnership is and i know its merits
and if by that you r telling me the nigerian economy is not in distress then i will suggest for the umpeenth time that u should watch a nigerian financial programme startn from tmorrow,what genius approach, please i m not a financial genius but i know that private biz are vultures meanwhile please do tell me where they have invested since the govt have been sayn it i.e the private biz

Sagamite:




Secondly, I don't see any law restricting people in setting up their own papers and reporting news as they see fit in Nigeria. Neither do I see the Nigerian journalists complaining about any restrictions of recent that is restricting them. Go to Zimbabwe and see the opposite.



Please refer to my list of "Probabilities". It is exactly the way they left Mugarbage in 2000 and 2004. I believe he did not have oil then, I may be wrong.

hmmn,of course theres no law restricting people having their own media but u seem to be side stepping the issue or missing it altogether,the point is that zimbabwe have a virile press being muffled by a dictator and nigeria's press is owned by our own brand of politicians lock stock and the only state owned one have retreated into their shells because the government have planted their own people there so tell me how the two s diffrent aye??

well i beg to differ,they left mugarbe because they both had something going and was still thinking he ll see reason, i love the west for that at least they ll give you a long rope before over running you,they gave iraq enough time to kow tow before them messed them up, awwwwwww
he did not have oil but what exactly was the reason they were fighting him again

Sagamite:




Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.





Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.
And Nigeria was under so much pressure, we were thrown out of the Commonwealth. So what is your point?

hmmmn u must be patting yourself in the back for being so good at picking and choosing issue right?one one hand you r saying historical comparisons and then going on to say it was more than 15 years ago so that means we should consign it to history right,pls dont say this in front of the people that lost families,bread winners,children in final year of universities,the victims of political assasinations e.t.c or else even their daughters will deck you and knock yu to the ground, as far as they r concerned they feel same way as the zimbabwean victims,
so driving them out of the commonwealth IN YOUR OWN OPINION is the west mounting adequate pressure, rightna wa for ppl o

Sagamite:






Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

Conjecture. It was the main news on CNN, BBC, FOX, CBS, FFFFF, BOBOBO or whatever. THEY REPORTED EVERYTHING!

Abiola was influential and had global friends so please don't lie. It was a global news and THEY REPORTED EVERYTHING!

again go n tell ppl whose daughters both teenage and older,wives were raped that we v forgotten all about it because its been years ago,we only count the one in zimbabwe instead and see if they ll welcome you with a cold bottle of star beer or stout for being to honest,caring and thoughful, (speakn to myself)exactly what i said in my original post about shouting about zimbabwe rapings and what not while the rape victims in our country are there without anybody giving them interviews on cnn,fox news,bbc even then not to talk of now hmmm)go find out if the rapings and killings in choba and odi is not part of the reasons of agitations from both millitants and bonafide representstives

yes it was global news,for how long?show me where the prime minister of that time tabled it before the mps
show me where military option was considered even in spite of abiola being so close to them all??hmmmnn
show me where it was reported for the lenght of time this circus has been going on
i dont know where you reside and u can ask anybody in the whole of uk?daily mail didnt use abiola and nigeria in whatever guise or form as screen saver for like ages or if they did im sure u can prove me wrong,
as influential as abiola was,show me where they came to his aid when they sided with the government,when they came after abacha's death show me where the same pressure put on mugabe was put on the nigerian govt abeggiiii

brings me back to my point,the west dont give a flying fck about being friends with you,they will be friends with abiola,mugabe and the devil as long as their interests are being taken care of and will drop u like a hot potatoe as soon as you r not serving their interest

Sagamite:











Please refer to my "historical comparison" post above. Killings under military rules more than 15 years ago is not a valid argument or comparison in our present democratic state.

Please don't degrade this debate. I hope you realise that Western government and media would have only limited time and resources? So they can only criticise the heads of state, not your local government chairmen or your salvation pastors that milk you of your tithe. That is left to you local leaders and the congression, not the Gordon Brown.

and pls dont insult people's sensibilities by reducing their miseries which they r still going through to"killings under military rule more than 15 years ago"its very well for you to say because you have not experienced it,ill have you know killings is killing and it has no time frame thats why theres no statute of limitation on murder from my limited knowledge of law
hmmn picking and choosing yet again so now they have limited time and resources when it comes to some african nations,but when it comes to zimbabwe they have unlimited time and resources, interesting thanks for enlightening me of that
and n one is saying they should talk about the local govt and others(even though they will interview virtually anyone and do articles on anyone from mugabe to his foot soldiers)to the thugs




.

@busybody
where did you diig that up, hmmmmm
mr davidlan pls respond to these of your posts

lucabrasi:

ill disregard the first paragraph and jump straight in to address the "perceived goofs" once and for all lets do the first one
first of all please spare me the financial jargons , ppp,monetisation,capitalisation bla bla bla how has that translated into regular plate of eba and one piece of meat for the average nigerian??

This is funny.

This is hilarious.

Eh, good financial management that "financial jargon's"  like PPP, monetisation and capitalisation manifest would ensure a country does not spend more than it should on activities, reduce corruption as investors monitor their money better than governments, reduce money leaving the local economy, improve productivity, improve global competitiveness, improve efficiency, improve economic activities, increase job opportunities, reduce stress on populace which reduces the cost they pay for healthcare.

Improved healthcare and more jobs in the economy leads to more time for making money, making money leads to eba and (at least) ponmo on the table.



Considering your arguments, we can as well close down our Finance Ministry (even all Ministries) and go back to pre-colonial traditional ways because this whole education thing and financial concepts/strategies being developed by scholars in the world's best universities would not put eba on the table. 



I did not study a commercial subject but I know all these by reading the Financial Times and watching BBC financial news.

God, you made me laugh hard on this one, men. This one na super argument on your part.

lucabrasi:

also i think you should go look at our stock market and see whats going on there, first of all in case you don't know, mrs head of stock exchange has been accused of insider trading and when confronted during the tail end of obj government she ran out of the room and shouted you be witch o at the guy, as funny as it sounds,she has not come out to deny it, that she used some of the stock exchange proceeds for pdp campaign,she s involved in insider trading,price fixing , so with the stock exchange being the back bone of an economy will u say linking the head even if the allegations are partly true inspires confidence in investors??

hope you have heard people talking of the nigerian stock exchange nearing meltdown,

What is happening in the stock market? Market correction?

I have told friends and family not to put their money in the Nigerian financial market because I knew it was overpriced because of the astronomical demand hence was due for correction. Price corrections happens EVERYWHERE. IT DOES NOT MEAN A FAILURE (if that is what you are alluding to). I told friends and family that the only ones that would make serious money are those that bought IPO issues not the secondary sales market as the high demand would have priced the potential return into the sales price. When the market corrects itself, things would be back to normal and sanity. Those that are financially sophisticated would make money.

as per the DG of the NSE:
So I can see you have "allegations". Allegations?

Let me just make a point to you here. THERE IS INSIDER TRADING GOING ON IN DEVELOPED MARKETS. It is just hard and costly to prove by the authorities. Every trader in the City would tell you insider trading exists. Read up on what they call the "China Wall" in investment banking and you will see that all the regulators can depend on is a company's self-enforcement (incredibly inefficient) and whistleblowers (very few are involved/privy and have the guts).

There are worse fears to investors like accounting fraud but even Enron's large scale one can not bring a stock market down.

Go and research how the Nigerian stock market has appreciated in the last 5 years then come back and give me your arguments of how it is not a success.

Just a quick research (please you too should start trying this before putting arguments forward) shows me that the market capitalistion was N2.9 trillion in 2005 and N5.1 trillion in 2006.

Abeg do the percentage increase yourself and tell me how that is not a success/robust improvement.

lucabrasi:

now to that famous recapitalisation of the banks , apart from having stronger banks what other promises have they kept which they made prior to recap??how has it strenghtened the economy and all this is IN SPITE OF A BARELL OF OIL BEING AT ITS HIGHEST

Just off the top of my head:
- More jobs.
- Less fiscal money flightation (the money the Ngr gov spends stays in the country as now our banks can handle big deals)
- Increased foreign direct investment
- Increased access to capital by some SMEs
- Increased access to capital for populace
- More flightation of foreign funds to Nigeria (with Ngr banks opening in USA, UK and western African countries)

I hope you know all these strengthen an economy?  If you still don't get it, do a bit of research of countries and see how the strength of their economy correlates with the strength of their financial houses.

Remember, just like you, I did not do a commercial degree but know all these.

What has the price of oil got to do with recapitalisation? You go have to explain that one o. I don scratch me head for 5 mins now and still don't get it.

lucabrasi:

how will any ppp work if the south south is not stable?

Uh? The way it worked when Britain implemented it when the IRA was bombing left, right and centre in London and UK? South South palaver never even reach Lagos, which is where the commercial koko is.

lucabrasi:

the nation is in the clutches of the oligarchy?we have a one party nation?that is not inspiring confidence for any private partnership apart from briefcase contractors who transfer the bulk of their funds abroad as soon as it gets into their accounts and the likes of tinubu and co who front with some multi nationals they own,

Despite the problems and challenges, interests levels from foreign firms in PPP disproves your conjecture above.

If you want me to DO A LITTLE RESEARCH into global and reputable firms that have shown interests in PPP, I would and I am confident I would come up with a stong list but I don tire to have to be the only one doing my research in this debate. You are wasting my time because you can't be bothered to use facts and figures in your arguments. You only use conjectures.

lucabrasi:

ill continue with why i think nigeria is worse,as bad and as evil as mugabe is,he has not done the adedibu neither has he declared like the pdp charman they will rule for 1000 years and making do their vow,dyu know how many people died in zaki biam during obj's government?? a whole village was razed to the ground just because of a single man lt gen victor malu go find that out,go find out how many people have been killed in the south south who are innocent civillians without as much as a sorry during obj s tenure not including yar adua's

You show me the figures of those that have died. Or you are just not good at debating with facts and figures? Are they up to 20,000? 10,000? 5? 4? 3?

So Adedibu has killed 20,000 in Ndebeleland like Mugabe? Or has he killed even just over 85 people we saw killed in the last one month in Zim?

So what if the PDP chairman says they would rule for 50 million years? That is your strongest point against someone not releasing an election for 5 weeks when it was obvious he lost? But after beating the voters to a point of "vote for me or die", released election results in 48hrs? THIS IS YOUR STRONGEST ARGUMENT? 

lucabrasi:

you ask me to show you evidence that we r not worse than zimbabwe in economic terms and i ask you to show me what is working in economic terms in nigeria, my saying that in spite of the price of a barell of oil approaching 150dollars is enough to blow your argument to smithereens, and please don't insult me by saying mtn and gsm

This is your evidence or how we are worse off than Zimbabwe? Throwing back the question? No facts and figures? Just conjectures?  I for you!!!


Here are some of the FACTS and FIGURES I (me, moi, moi-moi) gave you earlier (please start giving yours, I can't be the only one using facts and figures in the exchange):

Our currency is not much different from the Zimbabwean currency?

Rates in 2003
$1 = N129
$1 = Z$0.824

Current Rates
$1 = N117 (appreciated)
$1 = Z$9,005,149,887 (depreciated)
(Note: The ZWD rate shown is the official rate. Actual available ZWD rates may vary significantly.)

I bet you will claim you went to school. So, Professor of Reasoning, how are the currencies similar? Which one will you invest in, Dim wit?

Inflation
Nigeria: 5.5%
Zimbabwe: 10,453% (official data; private sector estimates are much higher)

Growth Rate
Nigeria:       6.4%
Zimbabwe: -6.1%

lucabrasi:

and lastly you might think the political assasinations going up and down nigeria is not much because you don't know any of them,but trust me their families feel as strongly as the zimbabweans who have lost loved ones.apart from the bola ige whose killer is in full view but the government is not doing anything because he is priviledged,marshall harry whose killers are in full view, funso williams the same thing amongst so many others, tell me where these calibre of people have been killed in zimbabwe,as early as a couple of days ago there was an assasination in either bayelsa/cross river,there was another attempt in ibadan and thats off the top of my head,the fact that nigerians are not generally violent or millitant like other parts of africa doesnt mean that worse things have not happened between, these few i mentioned are not 20 years ago and purely politicalyou keep on saying im basing my facts on conjecture,for any informed person following the nigerian political scene,its as clear as day especially if you know people who are politicians in nigeria,nothing is hidden whtever you r not clear with you don't need to go far scroll down the politics section on here or ask,its a pity that we don't have a culture of keeping verifiable records yet in nigeria,but people will readily avail you of whatever you want to know so please spare me,

You are comparing situations where politicians from all parties are killing and are being killed by each other to a situation where the STATE APPARATUS is being used to kill politicians from the opposition IN FULL VIEW OF WORLD CAMERAS? 

Na real wah for your comparisons?

That was how you were comparing Zim political violence to SA's rights.  What kind of comparison is that? AMAZING!!!

lucabrasi:

hmmm i see, so between a press that is muffled and a press where virtually 99% is owned by these same corrupt politicians mainly to selfishly promote their selfish agendas which is fairer??and the remaining single government station you have said it yourself that they r incompetent,so that means they don't even have a clue, apart from that they toe the government line to the letter so theres even no need to muffle them, go check the nta and they have not dedicated up to 30 mins to the niger delta conflicts happening or anything that will put the government in good light,why dyu think tonnie iredia th nta dg was removed??
i don't see the facts you found so easily here,all i see are assertions from you which are not verified as well, you equally bas your arguments on conjectures too and forcing it down my throat or trying to make me believe it doesnt make it fact

LUCABRASI, HAVE YOU RESEARCHED into ownership structure of media houses in Zimbabwe? How far are you sure it is not also owned by politicians? By conjectual conclusions? 

If you are going to use something (ownership structure) as the bedrock of you arguments, research it. Compare it. Look at what percentage of the top 5 media houses in Zimbabwe is owned by politician and compare it to political ownership of the top 5 in Nigeria. Then you can make an EDUCATED guess of which one has a better, fairer ownership structure.

So the ownership structure could be the same or worse in Zimbabwe in addition to the press suppressing law of annual assessment and evaluation by government?

At least the NTA followed and mentioned AC and other parties in our elections. The MDC was banned and condemned by the HERALD and ZBC. How does that compare?


It is so shocking that despite all the time you had, you still brought an argument that gave me an opportunity to destroy or discredit EACH and EVERY one of you argument. 

lucabrasi:

well if having 60 billion in reserves equates to the nigerian economy being in strong shape then im lol here, was that as a result of strong economic policies or just plain old increase in the price of oil??

It is due to increase in oil price, better fiscal policy and improved governance. All signs of a good economic structure and policies. Init?

lucabrasi:

lets assume that it was as a result of our own gordon brown or whaever,how has that translated into a stronger economy?the price of the dollar and pound are still same give or take a few naira up or down depending on the time of the year over more than ten years now.

The exchange rate of the British Pound to the Japanese Yen is £1 = Y211. Does that mean Japan has a poor economy. This has hardly shifted (just like the Naira) in the last 15 years. So what is your point?

As a matter of fact (using facts and figures here) Japan is the (and has been for over 10 years now) second largest economy in the world. *Note a large economy virtually automatically translates into a strong economy.

Good management of budget deficit/surplus, unemployment rates, inflation/deflation rates, growth rates, import/export ratios etc play a critical factor in desired currency conversion rates.

The US in 2003 INTENTIONALLY allowed the Dollar to fall against all currencies due to the variants I listed above. Were they mad?

Contrary to your belief, it is actually a good thing Nigeria have kept the Naira steady but falling gradually because a sharp fall can negatively disrupt an economy. Hence Japan is following the same model of currency management and valuation.

Don't be arguing about something you don't know anything about based on warped assumptions. This flogging of your arguments is based on 40% previous knowledge and 60% on-the-spot research. Try and start researching on your own arguments too.

lucabrasi:

yes they have the fastest growing economy again because of the oil,and because of recapitalisation and people like me foolishly rushing in headlong with our money to the stock market, and DONT YOU DARE USE THAT WORD AT PRESENT PLS, untill you have gone through the stock exchange AT PRESENT and i don't mean the past few days i men weeks and months.
what direct foreign investment mr man??what foreign investment?oil??yes and we see whats happening in the niger delta clap for yourself, sooooo stable, right??plsss, told you not to mention telecoms as part of a stronger economy please don't insult me abeg,
what banking, the banking that s in dissarray??they r all floating with money laundering for politicians why dyu think uba is in trouble with the american govt??
tell me what the banks have done to strenghten the economy first before i answer your question on that nigerian bank strenghtening economy lol
you r pissing me off now, agriculture
i wont even reply that one about robust stock exchange, its not my fault if you can't click on the stock exchange section of nairaland and see whats happening

Yes, actually I have visited (2 days ago) the business section of nairaland ^{(admittedly once and that was by clicking on it in error  )} and I SAW your post about you losing money in the NSE and asking someone on the forum to give you some advice. I wanted to respond but I restrained myself because i felt you will feel I was stalking you as a vendetta. 

So you got burnt due to your "follow the herd" investments, and so? How does that not make Nigeria one of the fastest growing economies? You were the one that said you foolishly entered the stock market, not me. 

Abi, you didn't see the mugus that were using "follow the herd" investments to enter the buy-to-let market in the UK. I warned alot of people but some did not listen. They got BURNT. ^{How many houses did you buy?} 

Your stock market debacle which is your own fault is not a fact on its own to determine the economy of a country. Next time, invest WISELY or do not dabble in the stock market AT ALL. I don't. It is gambling, you win some, you lose some. The ones that invest wisely make money of the ones that invest foolishly.

Homeboy, a wise investor has made money of you. Live with it.

When your share portfolio hit rock bottom, I will be interested in buying it off you. If you want to sell. 


Here are the FACTS about a fast growing economy!!!

GDP
2000: $46Bn
2006: $115[/b]Bn (more than double)

[b]GDP growth rate
2000: 5.4
2006: 5.2 (above world average)

Inflation
2000: 38%
2006: 8% (drastic drop)

Market Capitalisation as a % of GDP
2000: 9.2%
2006: 28.5%

GNI per capita
2000: $1,020
2006: $1,410

External Debt
2000: $31Bn
2006: $8[/b]Bn

[b]Foreign direct investment, net inflows (BoP, current US$)
2000: $1.1Bn
2006: $5.4Bn (five times more)

I am not insulting you, I am just giving you facts and figures. No conjectures!

Unfortunately I could not get the facts and figures for our national budget. It is currently about $16Bn and I am pretty sure it used to be about $11Bn in 2003 but can't prove it so left it out.

lucabrasi:

honestly i can't give you any answer to all that because they r just feel good facts if they r not equating to lifting the living standards of baba basira the panel beater or iya iyabo the food seller under the bridge,i never said nigeria was not rich i said we are in a worse economic situation,apart from gsm and cash point(don't let me even start on the new c/c fraud that s going on in nigeria without checks)how has these feel good facts you r reeling out made the economy stronger
i don't want central bank figures please,its like showing me a nigerian bank statement or birth cerificate and demand i accept it as the truth when i know it can be conjured up in oluwole

OFF COURSE you can't give me an answer!!! How can you?

You made an argument based on conjecture when analytical rigour would have shown that it is smarter that one lists a set of criteria(Not use amala analysis) which can be universally re-used [/b]to assess the strength of [b]ANY economy, not one-dimensional analysis . Off-course you can't.

You don't want Central bank figures? What do you want to use then? Please, please, please tell me? Beer parlour statistics combined with Amala analysis, keg of palm-wine and a bowl of goat head pepper soup? Sorry mate, I don't use that.

GNI per capita reflects the average income of a country’s citizens and is used to understand the country’s economic strengths, as well as the general standard of living enjoyed by the average citizen.

GNI per capita for Nigeria in 2000 was $1,020 and in 2006 was $1,410. FACTS and  FIGURES, no amala analysis.

Mortality rates (under-5, per 1,000) which is the probability that a newborn baby will die before reaching age five in 2000 was 207 and in 2006 was 191. FACTS and  FIGURES, no amala analysis.

So even if you don't personally know baba basira whose life has changed, the average baba basira's life is gradually changing. One of the variants that affects the mortality rate is increased affordability of health care. So probably less children are dying because the average baba basira has more disposable income to pay for his child's healthcare.

Nigeria is listed as one of the Next Eleven. The Next Eleven are countries identified by Goldman Sachs investment bank as having a high potential of becoming the world's largest economies. These people at Goldman Sachs (some of the smartest in the world) used macroeconomic stability, political maturity, openness of trade and investment policies, and the quality of education as criteria not amala analysis. *Please not the keyword there: CRITERIA.

Use criteria when doing a performance analysis, YOU WILL NEVER GO WRONG!!!

lucabrasi:

so u got me scratching my head real bad toook then i suggest you ask people who follow the news about the opec story and by the way the rational behind it is that it the only other option is to dip their fangs into that foreign reserves you keep going on about
im not well versed in economics and that but i know enough to tell what public private partnership is and i know its merits
and if by that you r telling me the nigerian economy is not in distress then i will suggest for the umpeenth time that u should watch a nigerian financial programme startn from tmorrow,what genius approach, please i m not a financial genius but i know that private biz are vultures meanwhile please do tell me where they have invested since the govt have been sayn it i.e the private biz

So it was a financial strategy so as not to deep into the foreign reserve. (Just as I suspected but didn't want to put forward in ignorance).

If you don't understand the merit of this approach, try and do research on an analogous technique used by banks called "money markets". It will make you understand why Northern Rock despite having billions in people's deposit to fund their mortgage business, decided to BORROW money instead. It all has to do with current interest rates. Google it.  It is not a sign of financial distress (although can lead to it if not well targeted and managed like Northern Rock found out), it is most times a brilliant approach.

Let me give you a headstart, I don't expect you to fly in researching when you have not demonstrated crawling abilities.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/moneymarket/default.asp

lucabrasi:

hmmn,of course theres no law restricting people having their own media but u seem to be side stepping the issue or missing it altogether,the point is that zimbabwe have a virile press being muffled by a dictator and nigeria's press is owned by our own brand of politicians lock stock and the only state owned one have retreated into their shells because the government have planted their own people there so tell me how the two s diffrent aye??

Please refer to my comments above about doing research in the ownership structure in Zimbabwe before making a comparison.

lucabrasi:

well i beg to differ,they left mugarbe because they both had something going and was still thinking he ll see reason, i love the west for that at least they ll give you a long rope before over running you,they gave iraq enough time to kow tow before them messed them up, awwwwwww
he did not have oil but what exactly was the reason they were fighting him again

Conjecture probably based on deep anti-Western stance and/or hatred!!!

lucabrasi:

hmmmn u must be patting yourself in the back for being so good at picking and choosing issue right?one one hand you r saying historical comparisons and then going on to say it was more than 15 years ago so that means we should consign it to history right,please don't say this in front of the people that lost families,bread winners,children in final year of universities,the victims of political assasinations e.t.c or else even their daughters will deck you and knock yu to the ground, as far as they r concerned they feel same way as the zimbabwean victims,
so driving them out of the commonwealth IN YOUR OWN OPINION is the west mounting adequate pressure, rightna wa for people o

again go n tell people whose daughters both teenage and older,wives were raped that we v forgotten all about it because its been years ago,we only count the one in zimbabwe instead and see if they ll welcome you with a cold bottle of star beer or stout for being to honest,caring and thoughful, (speakn to myself)exactly what i said in my original post about shouting about zimbabwe rapings and what not while the rape victims in our country are there without anybody giving them interviews on cnn,fox news,bbc even then not to talk of now hmmm)go find out if the rapings and killings in choba and odi is not part of the reasons of agitations from both millitants and bonafide representstives

It does not mean I want it consigned to history. It just means that it is an inadequate tool to be used when comparing two nations. It is not like for like. You can as well go back to 1960 or even 1458.

Your point was to understand why the West was picking on Zimbabwe and do not do the same to Nigeria. So compare our RECENT political landscape to Zimbabwe's RECENT political landscape to understand why.

Like-for-like (LfL) comparisons just like economists and accountants do it to get an OBJECTIVE and UNDISTORTED point of view. I thought you were an investor in the Nigerian stock market, are you telling me you don't look at the financial statements of firms you invest in to see how they compare their perfomance with that of the preceding year?  ^{And you wonder why you got burnt?}

Commonwealth ejection: Is it not the same (along with sanctions) that they gave to Abasha that they are now giving to Mugabe? So what is your argument?

Please point us to your source of rape figures in Choba and Odi, so we can see the facts and figures ourselves. Otherwise this is just conjecture and I don't have time to come to your beer parlour for a dose of palm-wine facts and figures. Enjoy your drink with your fellow analysts. 

Every claim I make here about killings or rapes I can refer you to sources for the figures and even in some cases video interviews.

Overall, what has the Choba and Odi killings got to do with criticising political violence. Was these done by PDP to win votes? Back to your quacky comparisons?  Like for Like comparisons please. Next you will be comparing the Nigerian Police killing of conductors to Zimbabwe's political killings. 

lucabrasi:

yes it was global news,for how long?show me where the prime minister of that time tabled it before the mps
show me where military option was considered even in spite of abiola being so close to them all??hmmmnn
show me where it was reported for the lenght of time this circus has been going on
i don't know where you reside and u can ask anybody in the whole of uk?daily mail didnt use abiola and nigeria in whatever guise or form as screen saver for like ages or if they did im sure u can prove me wrong,
as influential as abiola was,show me where they came to his aid when they sided with the government,when they came after abacha's death show me where the same pressure put on mugabe was put on the nigerian govt abeggiiii

brings me back to my point,the west don't give a flying fck about being friends with you,they will be friends with abiola,mugabe and the devil as long as their interests are being taken care of and will drop u like a hot potatoe as soon as you r not serving their interestand

I have to admit here. You got me here!!!

The internet revolution was not here in June 12, 1992, so news of 1992 is hard to dig up. Rejoice on this due to the lack of infrastructure to display facts.

I am rest assured that a vast majority of readers know how CNN and BBC carried this news internationally and intensely then. And I am assured that if not for the infrastructural constraints, I would flog this your arguments with my usual facts and figures.

Rejoice, mate. One extra keg of palm-wine for you at your debating joint. Shayo lo wa yi o ye 

lucabrasi:

please don't insult people's sensibilities by reducing their miseries which they r still going through to"killings under military rule more than 15 years ago"its very well for you to say because you have not experienced it,ill have you know killings is killing and it has no time frame thats why theres no statute of limitation on murder from my limited knowledge of law
hmmn picking and choosing yet again so now they have limited time and resources when it comes to some african nations,but when it comes to zimbabwe they have unlimited time and resources, interesting thanks for enlightening me of that
and n one is saying they should talk about the local govt and others(even though they will interview virtually anyone and do articles on anyone from mugabe to his foot soldiers)to the thugs.

As I said:
"It does not mean I want it consigned to history. It just means that it is an inadequate tool to be used when comparing two nations. It is not like for like. You can as well go back to 1960 or even 1458.

Your point was to understand why the West was picking on Zimbabwe and do no do the same to Nigeria. So compare our RECENT political landscape to Zimbabwe's RECENT political landscape to understand why.
"

Busy_body:

Premonitions, premonitions, as some learned friends would say.

Who did? This thread is only 6 pages long, care to dredge up a particular post whereby someone justified Mugabe's killing? If you can accomplish this mission, I would eat my shorts.

Saying the WEST has ulterior motives and should back off, surely does not mean the same as saying the WEST provoked him.

If their own house was in order, why not? Why not let them exhaust all the options out there before barging in? But then it would be easier for you to find a camel that can pass through the eye of a needle before you find such leader in the Africa that we have today.

This, my dear, leads us to the issue at hand, Why should the WEST be the saviour of the Zimbabweans only, if the reason they want to go in is for regime change, human rights violation, and election malpractice? Like Lucabrassi said, death is death.

You don't say

Is the life of the Zimbabweans, worth more than that of a Nigerian?

Is the life of the Zimbabwean worth more than the life of a Darfurian?

Is the life of a Zimbabwean worth more than the life of a Kenyan national?

Does the blood of the Zimbabwean have pure liquid gold cursing through its veins?

Is Zimbabwean, like Israel in the Bible, the chosen race/nation?

More vomit?