Yes. A senseless question that can only come from a dishonest fanatic.

I remember you used to deny any good done by religion and its adherents too. You probalbly realized it makes one look stupid to deny the glaring.

Mazaje will get to where you are one day. Amen.

Logicboy03:


he asked you a question.....he didnt make a statement.

ThaProphet:

Good points made overall. I agree with you for the most parts.

However, have you also noticed that black groups/communities worldwide tend to be the most religious? Could the lack of direction be a result of over-religiousity? Instead of putting in work, we'd rather hope for some divine intervention. That is the utmost loss of direction if you ask me.

About certain individuals being successful regardless of their belief. Very true, most of the time, those individuals took charge of their lives. They worked more and attended church less. They did not subscribe to the "leave it all to Jesus" doctrine. That is besides the point though since we are talking about collective progress here.

This brings me to the unity issue. Religion has also contributed to disunity massively. The evidence can be seen all over the continent and even in the diaspora communities. Few of these divides: Islam vs Christianity, Christianity vs Christianity, believers vs unbelievers, condemned (unbelievers) vs Chosen (believers) light skinned vs darkskinned has its religious roots as well. So, religion has definately not made unity easier. Religion also contributes to the fear and distrust among Afrikans worldwide.

I wholeheartedly agree that religion is easy to blame. Our own first enemies are ourselves (afterall, we are the ones practicing religion). That said, religion is not the only factor responsible for all our problems but it plays a huge part, a fundamental part in the creation of our problems and our inability to solve them.

You have raised excellent points and I will certainly mull them over.

As you rightly pointed out, black groups/communities worldwide tend to be very religious, and it is because of that very state of poverty that makes them turn to religion. It is a source of hope that this world is not all that there is and that the next will be better. I don't think you would argue, as some try to do, that religion made them poor; they were already in that state even before turning to religion. And that is the point I think you and I both agree on: with or without religion man will be poor if he does not take hold of his own life.

There are two points though that I would contend with you on. The first is that I don't think that "over-religiousity", to use your words, is the cause of the lack of direction. I think it's apathy (the sense of utter hopelessness). Coming to terms with just how desperate their situation is, many lose hope in their own abilities to they can change their situation so they cling further unto their faith. Now this "over-religiousity" is only an issue if they retreat into a hope where they think one who is greater than them, i.e. Jesus, will do everything for them as though he were a genie. This is actually contrary to scripture (discussion for another day). In essence, my point is that apathy is the true cause of a lack of direction and I do not think that going to church less will give you direction. Personally, I spend a lot of time both at church and pursuing my goals.

The second issue of contention is the the unity issue. I would contend that the disunity among us as blacks for which religion takes the blame is due simply to the dark nature of man. I would say that religion is just another tool that man uses to justify conflict with his fellow man. And again, I think religion is an easy tool to use because man can appeal to a higher authority in order to justify his actions and thereby excuse himself from responsibility. Without doubt, history shows that some of the greatest atrocities have been committed in the name of God but it also shows that others had nothing to do with God. It was man being man.

I really do appreciate the civility and thoroughness with which you raised your points. It's what Nairaland needs more of if we are to get to a point where as a collective we can achieve something. I have never seen back and forth name-calling achieve anything.

God Bless.

uzoexcel: THe latino countries are deeply catholic and dont joke with their faith i.e spain, italy, france, brazil etc
The middle eastern/european countries are deeply islamic, well developed and as i said earlier serve as a source of tourism to everyone world wide i.e qatar, dubai, Abu dhabi, 'Egypt', Turkey etc
As i said, its the bastardization of religion thatz the problem with naija and not just religion

Qatar and those other Islamic countries are rich because of oil and smaller populations. However, there is serious poverty in those countries. Dont let their rich princes and govt officials fools you

I am reallly fascinated with the level of matured reasoning and discussion going on here..I have certainly had cause to reflect and meditate on so many points...Keep it cuming people

italo: Yes. A senseless question that can only come from a dishonest fanatic.

I remember you used to deny any good done by religion and its adherents too. You probalbly realized it makes one look stupid to deny the glaring.

Mazaje will get to where you are one day. Amen.

Yawn...I had a catholic education. So, stop lying by telling me that I dont see the small good religion does.


As for you, I am still 10 times more catholic than you despite being an atheist.......if you look at my old posts I defended the catholic church like an articulate bishop against muslim criticism......

uzoexcel: THe latino countries are deeply catholic and dont joke with their faith i.e spain, italy, france, brazil etc
The middle eastern/european countries are deeply islamic, well developed and as i said earlier serve as a source of tourism to everyone world wide i.e qatar, dubai, Abu dhabi, 'Egypt', Turkey etc
As i said, its the bastardization of religion thatz the problem with naija and not just religion

Spain is a secular country and is the only European country that you mentioned

Spain´s leading newspaper El Pais runs a poll today in which they ask readers if they believe that religion plays an exagerated role in society an 88% answered positively. Moreover 46% of young people in Spain declared themselves non religious (atheists, agnostics or indifferent to religion). And in the rest of Europe things seem to be moving in the same direction. Here´s the Atheist Bus Campaign according to The Guardian. - See more at: http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/atheism-going-mainstream-in-spain.html#sthash.PyunRPQx.dpuf



brazil and may south american countries are still emerging

Thats right! Any good thing must be attributed to other factors but any bad thing must be attributed to religion.

Cant you see you're making a mockery of yourself?

What about North Korea that has had an Atheist government for almost a century. See how dejected, desolate, terrorized and poor they are. Even Afghanistan is not as bad.

Cook up another excuse for North Korea!

Logicboy03:

Qatar and those other Islamic countries are rich because of oil and smaller populations. However, there is serious poverty in those countries. Dont let their rich princes and govt officials fools you

Maybe thats why Spain is in a deep economic crisis now. People are finding it hard to even eat.

It wasnt this bad 20yrs ago when the country was more religious.

Logicboy03:



Spain is a secular country and is the only European country that you mentioned

Spain´s leading newspaper El Pais runs a poll today in which they ask readers if they believe that religion plays an exagerated role in society an 88% answered positively. Moreover 46% of young people in Spain declared themselves non religious (atheists, agnostics or indifferent to religion). And in the rest of Europe things seem to be moving in the same direction. Here´s the Atheist Bus Campaign according to The Guardian. - See more at: http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/atheism-going-mainstream-in-spain.html#sthash.PyunRPQx.dpuf



brazil and may south american countries are still emerging

And that goes for much of Europe.

The more the separate themselves from God, the worse their economy and society has become.

The US too.

The more they go away from God, the worse the economy becomes.

italo: Thats right! Any good thing must be attributed to other factors but any bad thing must be attributed to religion.

Cant you see you're making a mockery of yourself?

What about North Korea that has had an Atheist government for almost a century. See how dejected, desolate, terrorized and poor they are. Even Afghanistan is not as bad.

Cook up another excuse for North Korea!

Religion cant develop a country, no matter how many times you try to spin it as such.....



North Korea is a communist country. I need not tell you that communism itself is a secular religion. Its problem comes from its extreme socialism and totalitarianism.


Out of over 15 secular countries that have a significant atheist population, you pick the one (North Korea) that is communist to make a point. Why is it different from other secular countries that rank at the top of human advancement?

italo: And that goes for much of Europe.

The more the separate themselves from God, the worse their economy and society has become.

Explain Germany? Explain Finland and Sweden who got out of the recession. Explain China who deflected the global recession that affected much of the Western countries.

The recession has nothing to do with God

God is related to the economy? How silly

italo: The US too.

The more they go away from God, the worse the economy becomes.

The financial crisis actually occurred when the US had a more religious government (no abortion, no gay marriage, claiming god told him to fight Iraq) under Bush if we are to go down your silly route of reasoning.

God has nothing to do with economy. The strongest economies remain secular countries with significant numbers of atheists

italo: Maybe thats why Spain is in a deep economic crisis now. People are finding it hard to even eat.

It wasnt this bad 20yrs ago when the country was more religious.

You do know that 20 years ago, it was their crookedness (hiding debts, reckless spending, toxic assets) that led to the current recession? lol.....ignorance on your part


Apparently, youhave confessed that religious supports crookedness and ill gotten wealth. Fail

italo: And that goes for much of Europe.

The more the separate themselves from God, the worse their economy and society has become.

That is not tru, the hole problem is america, america can make what they want.

My country has no bad economic, you don't need to run to church every sunday, and pray abd fast for the country.

With all the prayin g and fastingf i always hear from nigeria, nigeria must be the best country in the world.

But praying and fasting will not help a country when you didnot live a christian life.

Because stealing from the goverment and bring the money to the church didnot make you to a good christian and you can fast and pray but it will not help you and the country.

jackbauerspower:

Says the User whose Moniker is the name of an Egyptian God.

Oh Lord My God.....The Irony!!!

These 'wise' Nigerians will not kill me...

The 'Egyptian God' Horus (Greek spelling of Heru) is a Black African God as Black African as Anyanwu. Another Egyptian God is Amon/Amun/Amen that has been borrowed/stolen and transformed to the Caucasian prayer termination Amen/Amin. Though Hollywood has succeeded in making most Africans believe that the Ancient Egyptians were Caucasians labelled so-called 'Semites'. We import our Gods, Import our values, goods & services and end up exporting our jobs for youths to go abroad and look for work.

We have rejected God in our own image and accepted God in the image of Caucasians (of the Ice & Desert). We have been advancing in self-rejection; importing Gods, exporting Jobs;importing what we have, exporting what we do not have!

We should stop importing Weapons of Mass Destruction disguised as Religion, that never brought peace to Caucasians/Arabs. The only Peace we will get is the Peace of the Graveyard.

Logicboy03:


Religion cant develop a country, no matter how many times you try to spin it as such.....

If religion cant develop a country, then it cant underdevelop a country.

Logicboy03:

North Korea is a communist country. I need not tell you that communism itself is a secular religion. Its problem comes from its extreme socialism and totalitarianism.

Communism is NOT a secular religion. Communism is anti-religion and pro-irreligion at least the way it is practised all over the world while secular states should be neutral to either religion or irreligion.

Nigeria's problem comes from corruption, mismanagement etc.

Logicboy03:

Out of over 15 secular countries that have a significant atheist population, you pick the one (North Korea) that is communist to make a point. Why is it different from other secular countries that rank at the top of human advancement?

I dont think you are aware that Ethiopia, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Chad, Congo DR, Liberia, Nepal, Syria, Spain, Italy, Colombia are secular countries.

What is the state of their economy and society?

t

Oh! God is only related to the Nigerian situation?

Who is being silly?

Logicboy03:


Explain Germany? Explain Finland and Sweden who got out of the recession. Explain China who deflected the global recession that affected much of the Western countries.

The recession has nothing to do with God

God is related to the economy? How silly

italo: Oh! God is only related to the Nigerian situation?

Who is being silly?

You....because, I have never made3 any positive argument for God.....your god doesnt exist and hence, can not affect anything. Rather, the blief in him by certain gullible people can be dangerous because it is only a delusion.....a kind of madness

Logicboy03:


The financial crisis actually occurred when the US had a more religious government (no abortion, no gay marriage, claiming god told him to fight Iraq) under Bush if we are to go down your silly route of reasoning.

But the US was a secular country when Bush was president na...haba!

It is actually your own silly route of reasoning. It is you who started to link Religion to development and underdevelopment right from your OP.

You are suffering from memory loss?

Logicboy03:

God has nothing to do with economy. The strongest economies remain secular countries with significant numbers of atheists

Lies. Name these strongest economies.

You do know that Spain is a secular country, right?

YOU FAIL!

Logicboy03:



You do know that 20 years ago, it was their crookedness (hiding debts, reckless spending, toxic assets) that led to the current recession? lol.....ignorance on your part


Apparently, youhave confessed that religious supports crookedness and ill gotten wealth. Fail

italo:

If religion cant develop a country, then it cant underdevelop a country.



Communism is NOT a secular religion. Communism is anti-religion and pro-irreligion at least the way it is practised all over the world while secular states should be neutral to either religion or irreligion.

Nigeria's problem comes from corruption, mismanagement etc.



I dont think you are aware that Ethiopia, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Chad, Congo DR, Liberia, Nepal, Syria, Spain, Italy, Colombia are secular countries.

What is the state of their economy and society?

t

Those African countries can only claim to be "secular"....they are not.....not with the massive influence of religion on the govt. So stop being ignorant


Look, if you are ignorant about politics, why not keep quiet and go and learn? Hmm?

Communism and Buddhism have a long hiostory together....some times, a good relationship, sometimes bad. You need to read.

Furthermore, communism is a religion. One can only claim that communism is anti-religion in the sense that one can say islam is anti-religion. Can any other religion prosper with islam? No- just like communism cant support many religions...except when Buddhists agreed with its goals.

We can both agree on much of your post. Religion is not necessarily the problem but ABUSE of religion.

It is fanatics like logicboy that dont agree. They want to ascribe every bad thing to religion.

nora544:

That is not tru, the hole problem is america, america can make what they want.

My country has no bad economic, you don't need to run to church every sunday, and pray abd fast for the country.

With all the prayin g and fastingf i always hear from nigeria, nigeria must be the best country in the world.

But praying and fasting will not help a country when you didnot live a christian life.

Because stealing from the goverment and bring the money to the church didnot make you to a good christian and you can fast and pray but it will not help you and the country.

God affects you. At least he keeps you awake day and night worrying about him.

Lack of belief in God can also be dangerous.

Stay on topic. You have begun to move haphazardly like you normally do when you cannot keep up with reason.

Logicboy03:
You....because, I have never made3 any positive argument for God.....your god doesnt exist and hence, can not affect anything. Rather, the blief in him by certain gullible people can be dangerous because it is only a delusion.....a kind of madness

italo:

But the US was a secular country when Bush was president na...haba!

It is actually your own silly route of reasoning. It is you who started to link Religion to development and underdevelopment right from your OP.

You are suffering from memory loss?


Lies. Name these strongest economies.

Religion thrives in and sometimes leads underdevelopment. Especially Abrahamic ones. That is a fact. The poorest nations all have one thing in common- religion in excess (even north Korea with its religion of communism)



Strongest economies
http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/09/10/the-best-economies-in-the-world/3/

Switzerland
Singapore
Finland
Germany
USA



All secular with freedom of religion- meaning blasphemy is nonsense

God has nothing to do with economy. The strongest economies remain secular countries with significant numbers of atheists

That is not tru, in my country 8% of the people beliefe that there is no God, but our economic is good.

What more important is that you live a christian life, because that you run to the church every sunday and every day when the church is calling you didnot say that you live a christian life outside the church.

Nigerians run to the churches and mosque, pray and fast but only this didnot make you to a good person like we read it in the bible.

italo: God affects you. At least he keeps you awake day and night worrying about him.

Lack of belief in God can also be dangerous.

Stay on topic. You have begun to move haphazardly like you normally do when you cannot keep up with reason.

@ bold....false.

Lack of belief in God cant motivate you to do anything.
Lack of belief in Zeus cant motivate you to do anything.


so simple

nora544:

That is not tru, in my country 8% of the people beliefe that there is no God, but our economic is good.

What more important is that you live a christian life, because that you run to the church every sunday and every day when the church is calling you didnot say that you live a christian life outside the church.

Nigerians run to the churches and mosque, pray and fast but only this didnot make you to a good person like we read it in the bible.

Which country is this?

and italy, france, turkey

Logicboy03:



Spain is a secular country and is the only European country that you mentioned

Spain´s leading newspaper El Pais runs a poll today in which they ask readers if they believe that religion plays an exagerated role in society an 88% answered positively. Moreover 46% of young people in Spain declared themselves non religious (atheists, agnostics or indifferent to religion). And in the rest of Europe things seem to be moving in the same direction. Here´s the Atheist Bus Campaign according to The Guardian. - See more at: http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/atheism-going-mainstream-in-spain.html#sthash.PyunRPQx.dpuf



brazil and may south american countries are still emerging

NativeBoy:

You have raised excellent points and I will certainly mull them over.

As you rightly pointed out, black groups/communities worldwide tend to be very religious, and it is because of that very state of poverty that makes them turn to religion. It is a source of hope that this world is not all that there is and that the next will be better. I don't think you would argue, as some try to do, that religion made them poor; they were already in that state even before turning to religion. And that is the point I think you and I both agree on: with or without religion man will be poor if he does not take hold of his own life.

There are two points though that I would contend with you on. The first is that I don't think that "over-religiousity", to use your words, is the cause of the lack of direction. I think it's apathy (the sense of utter hopelessness). Coming to terms with just how desperate their situation is, many lose hope in their own abilities to they can change their situation so they cling further unto their faith. Now this "over-religiousity" is only an issue if they retreat into a hope where they think one who is greater than them, i.e. Jesus, will do everything for them as though he were a genie. This is actually contrary to scripture (discussion for another day). In essence, my point is that apathy is the true cause of a lack of direction and I do not think that going to church less will give you direction. Personally, I spend a lot of time both at church and pursuing my goals.

The second issue of contention is the the unity issue. I would contend that the disunity among us as blacks for which religion takes the blame is due simply to the dark nature of man. I would say that religion is just another tool that man uses to justify conflict with his fellow man. And again, I think religion is an easy tool to use because man can appeal to a higher authority in order to justify his actions and thereby excuse himself from responsibility. Without doubt, history shows that some of the greatest atrocities have been committed in the name of God but it also shows that others had nothing to do with God. It was man being man.

I really do appreciate the civility and thoroughness with which you raised your points. It's what Nairaland needs more of if we are to get to a point where as a collective we can achieve something. I have never seen back and forth name-calling achieve anything.

God Bless.

Indeed! Black communities that are extremely religious can be argued to be already poor. However, we can argue that they were already religious as well. Besides that even if religion did not directly cause their poverty, religion certainly has something to do with them remaining in poverty because.....

of apathy which is the main cause of lack of direction as you rightly pointed out. Apathy actually means the lack of interest in pursuing things that should be important, being docile when action is required or lack of interest. This is a manifestation of over-religiosity, don't you think? Like you said, over-religiosity is when people think that Jesus will do everything for them. You mentioned that it is contrary to the scripture, I 100% agree with you. Yet the scripture says "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers". Thus, many Christians refuse to engage in progressive activities like politics or protests and campaigns for example. In order to further support their resolve to not engage, scriptures like "for we fight not against flesh and blood but principalities...." are brandished. In other words, they only way to achieve change is to pray endlessly in the churches. I have to balance this, this is not meant to be an attack on Christianity. Over-religiosity can also be seen in our Islamic brothers as well. Except that it is mostly manifested in aggression and contemporarily, terrorism. It is the same over-religiosity expressed in different ways.

Both types of over-religiosity are obviously not beneficial. My point is that apathy and over-religiosity compliment each other and can lead to a lack of vision and direction. I do however agree that this is not universal as there are exceptions, just like yourself but according to my experience, it is true is most cases.

The unity aspect, I completely agree with. Humans have always had excuses and reasons to commit the most heinous acts. Which is why I think the world will probably fair better without it. Without religion, there will be less sentiments and people's acts can be seen exactly for what they are. For example slavery was about greed and economic reasons not dogmas like racism or religion. Yet, racism (invented) and Christianity were used to justify and foster it.

Brilliant observation about nairaland! You know what? Sometimes I think that the reason why the country is so messed up can be seen on Nairaland by just spending 1 hour on this forum. One one hand, you have silly people and on the other, you have people who think they are smart and because of that everybody else's opinion is worth nothing. We then end up with curses and name-calling and at the end, no one has actually managed to communicate. I do appreciate your respect and open mindedness even though we disagree on quite a lot lol.

Peace!

Logicboy03:

Those African countries can only claim to be "secular"....they are not.....not with the massive influence of religion on the govt. So stop being ignorant

They are secular! Dont try to be the judge of who is secular and who is not simply because I have shown you secular countries that are massively underdeveped.

Look, if you are ignorant about politics, why not keep quiet and go and learn? Hmm?

Communism and Buddhism have a long hiostory together....some times, a good relationship, sometimes bad. You need to read.

Furthermore, communism is a religion. One can only claim that communism is anti-religion in the sense that one can say islam is anti-religion. Can any other religion prosper with islam? No- just like communism cant support many religions...except when Buddhists agreed with its goals.

Logicboy03:
Lol...you just want to ascribe every bad government to religion. When a communist country is underdeveloped, it is because communism is a religion. When a communist country is a super power, it is not because of the communism religion anymore. It is because of other factors.

Fanatism has clouded your reasoning and you have become shameless.