Ukuts gp: so if i am making intercessary prayer for you. What name will i use. My pastor's name or the name of Jesus? Answer me.

If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven

God help us

italo:

Gal 2: 1, 2.

You must have misinterpreted that scripture.
The reason Paul went there wasn't to be guided (or confirm if he was teaching right as you said). He visited them (going to their leaders first) so as to be sure they had not changed what Paul initially preached to them, he wanted to be sure about this because if they had been taught something else, all His efforts would have been in vain.

I suggest you read it in a simpler translation
Check this:
1 Then fourteen years later I went back to Jerusalem again, this time with Barnabas; and Titus came along, too.
2 I went there because God revealed to me that I should go. While I was there I met privately with those considered to be leaders of the church and shared with them the message I had been preaching to the Gentiles. I wanted to make sure that we were in agreement, for fear that all my efforts had been wasted and I was running the race for nothing. (Contemporary English Version CEV)

italo:

Good. Mary and I believe that you can only go to the Father through Jesus. That is why I say Mother Mary, please let me go with you to JESUS so that I can get to the Father through him.

Mary doesnt take us away from Jesus. She takes us to him.

Ignorance at its peak. Where did jesus say that mary can accompany u to him? Then three of you will then go and meet God. Can you provide scriptural reference to this ur watery claims. Pls dnt make me laugh my ribs out.ok

Ukuts gp: so if i am making intercessary prayer for you. What name will i use. My pastor's name or the name of Jesus? Answer me.

The same name Mary will use when she is making intercessory prayer for me.

But wait, I thought you considered intercession a sin. You people said we must go directly to Jesus.

You people are obviously confused.

Which one is it?

Intercession is a sin or not?

Ukuts gp: now tell me. Are they doing according to the bible that they claim that they compiled? If only that is true.

First agree that they compiled it or tell us who did.

m.k.o2005:

If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven

God help us

But you said it is ignorance to ask anyone to pray for you.

You said Jesus wants us to come directly.

You said it was a sin.

Why are you continuing in this "sin" and "ignorance?"

italo:

But you said it is ignorance to ask anyone to pray for you.

You said Jesus wants us to come directly.

You said it was a sin.

Why are you continuing in this "sin" and "ignorance?"

See my quote below and know when you have sinned especially if you do the highlighted :

''If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven ''

God help us

tete7000:

Man I insist on what I earlier wrote and if you want to have a better understanding, check Rev 21:10-14 to learn more about upon what foundation even the heavenly Jerusalem was built on. Kindly stop twisting words and give them meaning the speaker never intended. Jesus turn Simon to Peter which means rock and went further to insist that upon 'THIS ROCK' I will built my Church. You are not Jesus and you can't claim you re in a better position to reinterprete what He said. The words are clear enough. Peter became rock because he was aware who Jesus is while He was yet to be revealed and Jesus told him, it wasn't flesh that revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven. This special priviledge of being a repository of divine knowledge then entitled him to being called a Rock- He was born and ordained for this purpose. What is happening regarding your interpretation is what happen when scripture is open to individual rather than Church interpretation. Church chose which books should be in the bible, compiled the bible, keeps the bible and only the Church has the right to interprete the bible. Before bible was compiled into a single book as we know it now, Church had existed and had been preaching the gospel.

Bros your quote on Rev 21:10 those not collaborate your arguement o. John in his revelation was talking about a heavenly state. Whenever the bible uses a holy jerusalem- the city of the living God it clearly referes to a place of total holliness which definitely is not earthly.
Pls try to have a spirit of understanding when reading the bible. Cos the bible says " its only the holy spirit that interpretes the word to us" go beyond the contestual meaning. - bible is not novel or newspaper-
2. So which church was founded on peter? Catholic? Methodist? Anglican? Penticostal or which?

italo:

How does this make any sense?

I said:

So if you are not really sure who compiled the bible or when, how are you sure the compilers didnt include books that were not inspired and exclude inspired books?

I once again put it to you that the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. If the Catholic Church wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this, the Bible cannot be trusted. If you disagree please answer the above question.

Also, since you are sure that some books were removed, who removed them, when were they removed...and by what authority were they removed?

Sorry, the initial wasn't supposed to be my response because it happened after the compilation.
Martin Luther did and it was in the 16th century by the same authority the catholic church had to compile it.

You are in a better position to answer your initial question because you are a catholic. However, if the Catholic church never bothered to compile these scriptures, others would have done it.

Review my reply @ the top this page, I'll like to hear from you.

m.k.o2005:

See my quote below and know when you have sinned especially if you do the highlighted :

''If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven ''

God help us

According to you, it is a sin to ask anyone to pray for you. It doesnt matter how you say it. Jesus wants you to go to him directly.

Why do you continue this ignorance and sin?

chidachris:


2. So which church was founded on peter? Catholic? Methodist? Anglican? Penticostal or which?

The church of Christ that knows no denomination ! All godly denominations are the church of Christ ! God will pick from all of the churches scattered abroad ! No one will be picked based on his denomination ! The church of Christ was founded By Christ himself and he asked peter then to teach the rest after he has been fully fed ! I laugh sometimes wen i hear people saying peter is the first pope of the rcc and i laugh at much ignorance ! Peter the first pope yet he was married ! Peter the first pope yet he never prayed the rosary one day ! Peter the first pope yet he never baptized any infant ! Peter the first pope yet he never prayed to God through Mary at any time ! Peter the first pope yet he never stopped any one who took bread(body of Christ) from taking the wine(blood of Jesus)! Peter the first pope yet he never said some believing Christians are saint and the rest believers are not. peter the first pope yet he never said some christians are priest and the rest are not ! Peter the first pope yet he never stopped any bishop from getting married ! Peter the first pope yet he never worshiped or bowed down to any image whatsoever ! Peter the first pope yet he never sprinkled any believer and call it baptism ! May be after the death of the 'first pope of the rcc' things drastically changed !
God will continue to help us untill we all leave the roman catholic institution !

God help us

italo:

According to you, it is a sin to ask anyone to pray for you. It doesnt matter how you say it. Jesus wants you to go to him directly.

Why do you continue this ignorance and sin?

I can see now that it is with lies and misquoting that you try to correct people ba ? God help us all

God help me

italo:

But you said it is ignorance to ask anyone to pray for you.

You said Jesus wants us to come directly.

You said it was a sin.

Why are you continuing in this "sin" and "ignorance?"

i can tell my pastor to pray for me being the servant of God. My pastor will then pray in the name of jesus for me. Now tell me when you say mary should pray for you, is she hearing ur plea? Is she alive? Can a dead person hear you? Or u want to tell me that mary did not die?
By the ways, cant i pray to God on my own? If i want to pray must i call on my pastor who is not there or my dead grandfather to pray for me when he cannot hear me at that time? As u people do always. You need to understand this things.
Pls answer me?

adsonstone:

Sorry, the initial wasn't supposed to be my response because it was after the compilation.
Martin Luther did and it was in the 16th century by the same authority the catholic church had to compile it.

I see that you are talking before learning and thinking things over.

The Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit compiled it by the Authority Given the Church by Jesus. How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit make the Church include the books and make Martin Luther remove them. Do you think God is a confusionist like you and Martin Luther.

Do you know that Martin Luther once removed the book of James because it didnt agree with his false doctrine, only to include it later in his version?

Is it God that is authorizing that anarchy?

adsonstone:
You are in a better position to answer your initial question because you are a catholic. However, if the Catholic church never bothered to compile these scriptures, others would have done it.

The Catholic Church compiled the Bible with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. If not it could not have compiled God's inerrant book.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

When it tells us that a writing is true, we believe.

When it tells us that a teaching is true, we believe.

Okay?

So stop talking until you know what you are talking about.

As for whether other would have compiled it, this just goes to expose your ignorance on this matter the more.

Just keep quiet when you're ignorant of something...or ask those who know.

That is not a sin.

Y av d catholic guys been ignoring enigma? D guy has some points

m.k.o2005:

I can see now that it is with lies and misquoting that you try to correct people ba ? God help us all

God help me

Sorry, it was mufikings and ukuts gp, not you.

Why dont you correct them that asking people to pray for you is not a sin, child of God.

You leave them to continue in ignorance while taking up issues with Catholics.

I told you, you were just a fanatic.

You just attack what you dont like.

What matters to you is not what's right or wrong.

m.k.o2005:

The church of Christ that knows no denomination ! All godly denominations are the church of Christ ! God will pick from all of the churches scattered abroad ! No one will be picked based on his denomination ! The church of Christ was founded By Christ himself and he asked peter then to teach the rest after he has been fully fed ! I laugh sometimes wen i hear people saying peter is the first pope of the rcc and i laugh at much ignorance ! Peter the first pope yet he was married ! Peter the first pope yet he never prayed the rosary one day ! Peter the first pope yet he never baptized any infant ! Peter the first pope yet he never prayed to God through Mary at any time ! Peter the first pope yet he never stopped any one who took bread(body of Christ) from taking the wine(blood of Jesus)! Peter the first pope yet he never said some believing Christians are saint and the rest believers are not. peter the first pope yet he never said some christians are priest and the rest are not ! Peter the first pope yet he never stopped any bishop from getting married ! Peter the first pope yet he never worshiped or bowed down to any image whatsoever ! Peter the first pope yet he never sprinkled any believer and call it baptism ! May be after the death of the 'first pope of the rcc' things drastically changed !
God will continue to help us untill we all leave the roman catholic institution !

God help us

you see how he is displaying his ignorance on this forum. He simply knows nothing about the bible he and his colleague claimed that they compiled. Pity!

cntabs: Y av d catholic guys been ignoring enigma? D guy has some points

Because we have known him over time to be a dubious and double mouthed debater.

E.g he answers questions that dont threaten his position but when you ask him a question that will prove him wrong, he will say or do anything in the world but answer that question.

Another example: he quotes one line in St. Ignatius letter to prove his point. When I quote the continuation of the letter to prove that he deliberately twisted the meaning of that one line, he simply says "wetin concern me."

Many many examples like that...

Will you honestly advise us to argue with such a person?

tete7000:
The word 'CATHOLIC' means universal and the word 'CHURCH' means body of believers. So Catholic Church means a universal body of believers. The appendage ROMAN was introduced after the Reformation by a one-time Catholic Monk. It was simply intoduced by the Protestants to Identify the Church from whom they broke away. The original Church stood and remains while the Lutheran Church continues defragmetizing and resulted in many denomination we have today. Many denominations apart from Anglican and East orthodox Church which still share semblance with Catholic Church started after the Reformation. Maybe you have never even heard of Reformation. Kindly read up

So if "catholic" means universal body of believers, then my little fellowship of five people who believe in Jesus Christ is also part of the catholic Church, is it not?

It also means that the Eastern Orthodox is part of the catholic Church, is it not?

It also means that the Oriental Orthodox is part of the catholic Church, is it not?

It also means for example that Billy Graham's church is also part of the catholic Church, is it not?

My friend, you really need to educate yourself on that my thread! Here again: https://www.nairaland.com/1257440/catholic-catholic-back-catholic

cntabs: Y av d catholic guys been ignoring enigma? D guy has some points

Because they are liars and pitiful crybabies; they are also zombies esconced to the fraud of their Roman Catholic denomination.

italo:

I see that you are talking before learning and thinking things over.

That was an error which anyone could have made.
That's the reason for my 'sorry' that began the
post.

italo:
The Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit compiled it by the Authority Given the Church by Jesus. How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit make the Church include the books and make Martin Luther remove them. Do you think God is a confusionist like you and Martin Luther.

Do you know that Martin Luther once removed the book of James because it didnt agree with his false doctrine, only to include it later in his version?

Is it God that is authorizing that anarchy?

Yes, I am aware that happened but do you know that the books that were removed still exist in some bible versions so anyone going for a good study will study them too.

italo:
The Catholic Church compiled the Bible with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. If not it could not have compiled God's inerrant book.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

When it tells us that a writing is true, we believe.

When it tells us that a teaching is true, we believe.

Okay?

Jesus (and all churches that preaches Jesus' messages without alterations and additions) is the foundation and pillar of the truth and not the catholic church as you claim.

italo:
So stop talking until you know what you are talking about.

As for whether other would have compiled it, this just goes to expose your ignorance on this matter the more.

Just keep quiet when you're ignorant of something...or ask those who know.

That is not a sin.

And now, these final words shows you have resorted to insulting comments like the ones who are ignorant and perhaps, negligent of clear reasons which I believe you are not one.

adsonstone: .... I'm sure some books were have been removed. 7 books or thereabout..

Don't let them mislead you! Even one of their "popes" said that the Apocrypha do not belong in the canon; even "their" Jerome" said the same thing. Even their "Bishop" Cajetan (Luther's opponent) said the same thing.

If those people had lived after the Roman Catholic denomination's idiotic Vatican I and Trent, all those people would have been declared "anathema" and excommunicated.

Follow up

Also please don't let them mislead you that Roman Catholics compiled the Bible in some 4th century. It is a LIE.

We have debunked that lie on various threads and I posted some of the material on the previous page.

See especially these three threads

https://www.nairaland.com/1447015/catholic-church-compiled-bible

https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

https://www.nairaland.com/1257440/catholic-catholic-back-catholic


Summary:

1. The Roman Catholics did not finally decide on their own Bible until as late as the 16th century around AD 1546. Because it is an undeniable historical fact, the Roman Catholics sometimes gently admit this but try to twist other facts and things.

See an example of Roman Catholics admitting with style style that their own Bible was only finalised as late as the 16th century.

The statement below is taken from them very own Roman Catholic Encyclopaedia.

"The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council." {Note the "Tridentine Council" took place from AD 1546 onwards. }


2. This second one is more important than when the Roman Catholics made their own Bible. The point here is that by the end of the first century approximately, the books of the Bible had already been written and were already being "compiled" --- by Christians. At this time there was no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church or even "The Catholic Church". What we had then was the Church of Christ or the Christian Church. As an aside you may find it helpful to skim the Wikipedia entry on the Christian Church (well let's hope the Roman Catholics are not allowed to manipulate it beyond the pale with their propaganda).

This Christian Church is universal and thus catholic in that small 'c' sense meaning "universal". But the Christian Church had loooooooong been in existence before either the Roman Catholic Church or even "The Catholic Church".

To further simplify things, here is a statement I made in one of my older posts:

From here https://www.nairaland.com/1104124/problem-catholism-an-introspection/20#15107836

We already had "the Bible" waaaaaaay before the 4th century; Christians who were mostly not Roman Catholics had already seen to that.

Enigma:

So if "catholic" means universal body of believers, then my little fellowship of five people who believe in Jesus Christ is also part of the catholic Church, is it not?

Roman catholic's meaning of catholic isn't universally believing in Christ but universally believing in the rcc doctrine which is very clear to all even the roman catholics as contrary to the bible ! It is only the rcc i know who claim to be Christians and tell me they do not believe in scriptures as written in the bible !

God help us

God help us indeed!

Compare and contrast!

Roman Catholic Church

Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior." (per "pope" Pius IX; this time let Roman Catholics themselves tell us whether this statement was made fallibly or ‘infallibly’)

Versus

Jesus Christ

“For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." (Matthew 18:20)

adsonstone:

That was an error which anyone could have made.
That's the reason for my 'sorry' that began the
post.

Yes, I am aware that happened but do you know that the books that were removed still exist in some bible versions so anyone going for a good study will study them too.

Lol...my friend, go and read about the history of the bible and stop wasting my precious time.

adsonstone:
Jesus (and all churches that preaches Jesus' messages without alterations and additions) is the foundation and pillar of the truth and not the catholic church as you claim.

The Holy Spirit says "Church." You say "all churches..."

I leave you to the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone:
And now, these final words shows you have resorted to insulting comments like the ones who are ignorant and perhaps, negligent of clear reasons which I believe you are not one.

Sorry if it sounded insulting. But I genuinely believe that you are talking before learning and thinking over these things which you are ignorant about.

I dont know how else to put it...neither do I see the insult in that.

Learn before you teach.

m.k.o2005:

Roman catholic's meaning of catholic isn't universally believing in Christ but universally believing in the rcc doctrine which is very clear to all even the roman catholics as contrary to the bible ! It is only the rcc i know who claim to be Christians and tell me they do not believe in scriptures as written in the bible !

God help us

Please supply evidence of the bold...that we might know who the liar is.

The Roman Catholic church denomination speaking with two mouths: https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic#15210206


In the Introduction to Ut Unum Sint, we read;

The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century, including members of Churches and Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church, gives new vigour to the Council's call and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice its exhortation.

What is the point of speaking of one Church, when you say there are other "Churches" (capital) and you say yet others are not even Churches at all but merely "ecclessial communities"?

Pointless!

@Italo.

A final question for you which calls for no debate or whatever.

Does the present day Catholic Church teach and practice exactly what Jesus taught and practised when He was on earth (I just need a response)?

italo:

Please supply evidence of the bold...that we might know who the liar is.

Why should i be lying ? I got married to a roman catholic. I did the 4 months marriage course and i can tell you more of the things i heard from the teachers there ! Besides, we can see the evidences from ur coments and that of other rcc members on line !

God help us all

adsonstone:

The church in Rome (possibly Catholic)
I don't know exactly when it was compiled...probably in the early centuries.

Christ establish a book, but He established a Church. Christ did not leave us any book, but He left us His Church

Before a line in the New Testament was written
1; Christ established the Church
2; Apostles preached and taught the Gospel
3; Peter had converted 3000 Jews
4; The Council of Jerusalem had assembled
5; The Jewish ceremonial laws abrogated

Before the last book of the New Testament was written
1; The Catholic (Universal) Church had celebrated 100 years
2; Eleven Apostles had died.

Christianity existed and thrieved morte than 300 years without the Bible.

In 367 AD Pope Damasus compiled the books which he felt were genuine and divinely inspired (after the Council of Laodecia were permited to produce the first canon of books) and order St. Jerome to translate them to Latin the official language of the Roman Empire. It took St. Jerome 30 yrs finish and he called it the "Latin Vulgate". In 397 AD Pope Sirius name the canon of books the "Bible". Few of the books like the Revelation/ Apocalypse were not accepted by all Early Christian scholars as genuine but infallible decision of Pope Damasus made them acceptable by all.

Enigma: The Roman Catholic church denomination speaking with two mouths: https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic#15210206


In the Introduction to Ut Unum Sint, we read;



What is the point of speaking of one Church, when you say there are other "Churches" (capital) and you say yet others are not even Churches at all but merely "ecclessial communities"?

Pointless!

dont u think that those link u provided is a waste of time, as they wud nt even bother to look at it Cos they dnt want to learn and acquire knowledge?