Syncan:

Yeah, guess what? He also told the "confession" to feed his sheep. This people no go kill me o.

D penalty of twisting d scripture is destruction. Just leave dem to continue. I pray dey find out quickly n recant.

adsonstone:

My answer: Jesus is. (His teaching)
I'll appreciate it if you also answer this question.

My answer: The Church.

Do you disagree?

*note that we both agree that the foundation and pillar of truth is not the Bible*

What do you think your Bible says about this?

adsonstone:

I don't doubt the Bible.

Why?

italo:

My answer: The Church.

Do you disagree?

*note that we both agree that the foundation and pillar of truth is not the Bible*

What do you think your Bible says about this?

Correlation between both answers (in my own opinion though): The Church is part of Christ (the body of Christ). My conclusion: They are one.

Now, the bible is the guide for the (earthly) Church.
Why?
Reason: That's where the teaching of Christ can be found.
Do you disagree?

italo:

Why?

What else will serve as a guide for my Christian life if I doubt the bible? Its totally awful if I doubt the Bible.
By the way, do You doubt it (the Bible)?

Enigma:

You mean you can't see my other contributions! And how many times have I posted this? Or is it because what the "cardinal" said is true --- that we do not need "popes"?

And what do you have to say about the Roman Catholic posters and their posts?

By the way, I pose this question to you too!

Question:

Myself and two other friends believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and God the Son born of virgin Mary. We meet regularly to pray and sing hymns together. Would you call us {your} brothers or would you call us {your} "separated brethren"?


{Please, kindly give reasons/explanation for your answer, thanks.}

You answered your own question. You meet with your friends, how does that not make you my seperated brethren? I know you are obessed with the seperated aspect of it, but you should rather happy that you are still a brother.

adsonstone:

My answer: Jesus is. (His teaching)
I'll appreciate it if you also answer this question.

Absolutely!

There is a hymn which starts "The Church's one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord"

Also, see the points made on the same issue in this thread of mine: https://www.nairaland.com/1229310/infallibility-christian-church-simple-approach

tete7000:
You must know more than Christ himself who first changed Simon name to Peter which means the rock and then went on to say 'Upon this rock I will build my Church'. Did you hear him say 'Upon this testimony I will build my Church?'. Olodo, confusionist, liar. Go back and reread that account of the gospel well.

My brother b4 u call someone olodo you must have first done a wide range of research and holistic review of the subject matter.
1. Jesus was not talking about a physical rock neither did he build the church upon testimony.
But rather was refering to himself as Petra- (meaning Bedrock) which was as a result of the revelation that He is God made by peter.
2. Remember the bible was translated and Jesus did not speak english. If you check the greek translation of the bible, you will discover that jesus called simon 'petros' -meaning rock stone. And he said "upon this Petra (meaning bedrock- talking about himself) - I will build an Ekklecia (meaning assembly) and the gates of 'hades' (meaning hell) shall not prevail against it.
3. The word church which u see in english translations is as a result of translating the bible. Jesus never meant a particular denomination
4. The word 'church' is gotten from a greek word 'kuriakê [oikia]' meaning The Lords House
5. I will not go into details on the origin of the word 'church' cos it was first used by roman emporor constantine who was a servant of 'Lord Mithras' - let's leave that for later.
6. It may also interest to note that apostle peter was never in rome so the first church was not in rome.
7. Finally the word church as seen in mt 16:18 does not mean a physical church but an assembly of saints.
So if you want to be in the assembly of Gods people who the gate of hell shall not prevail against then live like a saint and don't be bound by the religious dogma many denominations use in claiming ownership of the church

adsonstone:
Correlation between both answers (in my own opinion though): The Church is part of Christ (the body of Christ). My conclusion: They are one.

So if the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, can it then teach false doctrine?

adsonstone:
Now, the bible is the guide for the (earthly) Church.
Why?
Reason: That's where the teaching of Christ can be found.
Do you disagree?

I disagree. If the Bible were the guide for the earthly Church, Stephen, Titus, Paul, Luke would have mentioned the Bible.

On the contrary, all these men never had a Bible.

Instead, Paul tells us where to go to be guided in the truth.- The Church.

And that is exactly what he did in Acts 15, when there was a doctrinal issue.

He went to the Church for guidance...not the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit, Paul...and even the Bible itself says 'go to the church for the truth,' why are you adamant that it must be the bible, not the church?

Sal C: You answered your own question. You meet with your friends, how does that not make you my seperated brethren? I know you rare obessed with the seperated aspect of it, but you should rather happy that you are still a brother.

So how am I "separated" from you?

On what basis?

Do I meet with Christians in Jerusalem? Am I their "separated brethren"?

Do I meet with Christians in Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople? Am I their "separated brethren"?

OK, for my part I am willing to call you my sister ---- as long as you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son incarnate of the virgin Mary.

Another question I asked of woky:

are the people on the Christian Chat thread also your "separated brethren" and "separated sistren"?

Remember that they just see you as a sister!

And my final question that I also asked woky: who then is causing division?

chidachris:

My brother b4 u call someone olodo you must have first done a wide range of research and holistic review of the subject matter.
1. Jesus was not talking about a physical rock neither did he build the church upon testimony.
But rather was refering to himself as Petra- (meaning Bedrock) which was as a result of the revelation that He is God made by peter.
2. Remember the bible was translated and Jesus did not speak english. If you check the greek translation of the bible, you will discover that jesus called simon 'petros' -meaning rock stone. And he said "upon this Petra (meaning bedrock- talking about himself) - I will build an Ekklecia (meaning assembly) and the gates of 'hades' (meaning hell) shall not prevail against it.
3. The word church which u see in english translations is as a result of translating the bible. Jesus never meant a particular denomination
4. The word 'church' is gotten from a greek word 'kuriakê [oikia]' meaning The Lords House
5. I will not go into details on the origin of the word 'church' cos it was first used by roman emporor constantine who was a servant of 'Lord Mithras' - let's leave that for later.
6. It may also interest to note that apostle peter was never in rome so the first church was not in rome.
7. Finally the word church as seen in mt 16:18 does not mean a physical church but an assembly of saints.
So if you want to be in the assembly of Gods people who the gate of hell shall not prevail against then live like a saint and don't be bound by the religious dogma many denominations use in claiming ownership of the church

They don't even know who is their own first "pope"!

The "church fathers" have conflicting accounts of who the first three "popes" were including whether na Linus or Anacletus (abi na Clarus sef)!



(I could have got a name wrong; I'll check later)

adsonstone:

What else will serve as a guide for my Christian life if I doubt the bible? Its totally awful if I doubt the Bible.
By the way, do You doubt it (the Bible)?

I dont doubt the Bible...because I believe when the Church (the pillar and foundation of truth) says it is Gods word and the apostles wrote those letters. I believe the bible because I believe the Church that compiled and canonized it.

Jesus wasnt recorded to ever tell anyone to write any book.

He just picked 12men and built his Church on them with Peter as head.

When did a book become the basis of Christian faith?

italo:
So if the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, can it then teach false doctrine?


I disagree. If the Bible were the guide for the earthly Church, Stephen, Titus, Paul, Luke would have mentioned the Bible.

On the contrary, all these men never had a Bible.

Instead, Paul tells us where to go to be guided in the truth.- The Church.

And that is exactly what he did in Acts 15, when there was a doctrinal issue.

He went to the Church for guidance...not the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit, Paul...and even the Bible itself says 'go to the church for the truth,' why are you adamant that it must be the bible, not the church?

Answer: Yes it can. (If it has refused to go in line with the teaching of Christ).

Another thing you should note is that the bible never existed then (as it is today) so, they could not have had one. They only had scriptures and scrolls written by the prophets which Jesus and the Apostles always referred to in their teaching (because they were inspired of God).

You should also note that the Epistles of the Apostle Paul were written to the Churches in different locations to guide them. Why: because they had issues that needed to be attended to which they couldn't tackle....so they needed the Epistles.



By the way, I'll like you to answer this:
What is the relevance of the bible to the church?

italo:

I dont doubt the Bible...because I believe when the Church (the pillar and foundation of truth) says it is Gods word and the apostles wrote those letters. I believe the bible because I believe the Church that compiled and canonized it.

Jesus wasnt recorded to ever tell anyone to write any book.

He just picked 12men and built his Church on them with Peter as head.

When did a book become the basis of Christian faith?

The book is not the basis, its the guide to Christian living and where we can learn from.

The basis for the Christian faith is simply:
Believing in Jesus as the Son of God, born of a virgin (Mary), Crucified (Died to save us), and Resurrected

Enigma:

So how am I "separated" from you?

On what basis?

Do I meet with Christians in Jerusalem? Am I their "separated brethren"?

Do I meet with Christians in Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople? Am I their "separated brethren"?

OK, for my part I am willing to call you my sister ---- as long as you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son incarnate of the virgin Mary.

Another question I asked of woky:

are the people on the Christian Chat thread also your "separated brethren" and "separated sistren"?

Remember that they just see you as a sister!

And my final question that I also asked woky: who then is causing division?

When you mentioned followshiping with your two friend, did you mention me?

italo:
So if the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, can it then teach false doctrine?


I disagree. If the Bible were the guide for the earthly Church, Stephen, Titus, Paul, Luke would have mentioned the Bible.

On the contrary, all these men never had a Bible.

Instead, Paul tells us where to go to be guided in the truth.- The Church.

And that is exactly what he did in Acts 15, when there was a doctrinal issue.

He went to the Church for guidance...not the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit, Paul...and even the Bible itself says 'go to the church for the truth,' why are you adamant that it must be the bible, not the church?

Its quite unbelievable that you say the apostles didn't know the bible. Even though it wasn't called bible in those days but "scriptures" which were contained in scrolls, on many occasions both jesus and the apostles in their teachings quoted the books of moses, isiah, daniel, samuel, psalms and all other prophets. So how did they know all this if they didn't have the scriptures?
The guide to a christian life is the bible cos it contains the word of God.
Jesus christ didn't preach doctrines but salvation and apostle paul said "we are saved by grace not by works that no man should boast in himself"
The only way to salvation is jesus christ and not a church.
The bible says " in those days the commandments were written on tablets of stone but now its written our hearts.
And lots more

adsonstone:

Hello, that portion quoted by Jude is what you need for your Christian walk. Going to research for the whole Book of Enoch will be awful. However, I'm quite sure you'll get more wrong things than right ones in your research (if you do).

Hahaha ok, so the book of enoch is the word of God or not? if jude quoted from it, why is it not in your bible?

adsonstone:

Answer: Yes it can. (If it has refused to go in line with the teaching of Christ).

Another thing you should note is that the bible never existed then (as it is today) so, they could not have had one. They only had scriptures and scrolls written by the prophets which Jesus and the Apostles always referred to in their teaching (because they were inspired of God).

You should also note that the Epistles of the Apostle Paul were written to the Churches in different locations to guide them. Why: because they had issues that needed to be attended to which they couldn't tackle....so they needed the Epistles.



By the way, I'll like you to answer this:
What is the relevance of the bible to the church?

Haba oga, you said the church and Jesus is same, now you say the church (Jesus) can teach falsely, "if it has refused to go in line with the teaching of christ". So according to you, simply put, Jesus can teach falsely if he refuses to go in line with the teaching of Jesus.

Nothing we no go hear for this place!

Pastor Olu T:

And the church is Roman catholic i guess?

cant be the Roman Catholic

Syncan:

Hahaha ok, so the book of enoch is the word of God or not? if jude quoted from it, why is it not in your bible?

Yes, it is.
Simple, Its not there cos you don't need it (or not available when it was compiled). Love what you have and value it...its complete enough for you to learn from.

chidachris:

Its quite unbelievable that you say the apostles didn't know the bible. Even though it wasn't called bible in those days but "scriptures" which were contained in scrolls, on many occasions both jesus and the apostles in their teachings quoted the books of moses, isiah, daniel, samuel, psalms and all other prophets. So how did they know all this if they didn't have the scriptures?
The guide to a christian life is the bible cos it contains the word of God.
Jesus christ didn't preach doctrines but salvation and apostle paul said "we are saved by grace not by works that no man should boast in himself"
The only way to salvation is jesus christ and not a church.
The bible says " in those days the commandments were written on tablets of stone but now its written our hearts.
And lots more

If scripture was daniel, psalm etc (old testament books) when and why was peter, corinthians, romans ,etc, added and by who, under what authority?

adsonstone:

Yes, it is.
Simple, Its not there cos you don't need it (or not available when it was compiled). Love what you have and value it...its complete enough for you to learn from.

A book an apostle quoted from, you tell me it is not needed? who said it is not needed and by which authority?

adsonstone:

Answer: Yes it can. (If it has refused to go in line with the teaching of Christ).

If the apostles' church (pillar and foundation of truth) could teach error, you're saying the apostles also could have taught error in their letters.

See the confusion you're in?

adsonstone:
Another thing you should note is that the bible never existed then (as it is today) so, they could not have had one. They only had scriptures and scrolls written by the prophets which Jesus and the Apostles always referred to in their teaching (because they were inspired of God).

Who then made the Bible as it is today and where did God command that any such thing should be made?

adsonstone:
You should also note that the Epistles of the Apostle Paul were written to the Churches in different locations to guide them. Why: because they had issues that needed to be attended to which they couldn't tackle....so they needed the Epistles.

You should also note that Peter (the one who holds the keys to the kingdom) said many misinterpret Paul's epistles to their own destruction. This shows that a letter or book cannot be an authority in itself. The Church interprets it so that you dont use it to destroy your soul.

If even the writer, Paul, had to go to the Church to be sure he wasnt writing error, why should you doubt the believe the letter and doubt the Church that guides the author of the letter?

adsonstone:
By the way, I'll like you to answer this:
What is the relevance of the bible to the church?

The Bible is part of the teaching of the Church that was put down in writing. The Church existed before it and would still exist if it never made a Bible.

chidachris:

My brother b4 u call someone olodo you must have first done a wide range of research and holistic review of the subject matter.
1. Jesus was not talking about a physical rock neither did he build the church upon testimony.
But rather was refering to himself as Petra- (meaning Bedrock) which was as a result of the revelation that He is God made by peter.
2. Remember the bible was translated and Jesus did not speak english. If you check the greek translation of the bible, you will discover that jesus called simon 'petros' -meaning rock stone. And he said "upon this Petra (meaning bedrock- talking about himself) - I will build an Ekklecia (meaning assembly) and the gates of 'hades' (meaning hell) shall not prevail against it.
3. The word church which u see in english translations is as a result of translating the bible. Jesus never meant a particular denomination
4. The word 'church' is gotten from a greek word 'kuriakê [oikia]' meaning The Lords House
5. I will not go into details on the origin of the word 'church' cos it was first used by roman emporor constantine who was a servant of 'Lord Mithras' - let's leave that for later.
6. It may also interest to note that apostle peter was never in rome so the first church was not in rome.
7. Finally the word church as seen in mt 16:18 does not mean a physical church but an assembly of saints.
So if you want to be in the assembly of Gods people who the gate of hell shall not prevail against then live like a saint and don't be bound by the religious dogma many denominations use in claiming ownership of the church

Man I insist on what I earlier wrote and if you want to have a better understanding, check Rev 21:10-14 to learn more about upon what foundation even the heavenly Jerusalem was built on. Kindly stop twisting words and give them meaning the speaker never intended. Jesus turn Simon to Peter which means rock and went further to insist that upon 'THIS ROCK' I will built my Church. You are not Jesus and you can't claim you re in a better position to reinterprete what He said. The words are clear enough. Peter became rock because he was aware who Jesus is while He was yet to be revealed and Jesus told him, it wasn't flesh that revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven. This special priviledge of being a repository of divine knowledge then entitled him to being called a Rock- He was born and ordained for this purpose. What is happening regarding your interpretation is what happen when scripture is open to individual rather than Church interpretation. Church chose which books should be in the bible, compiled the bible, keeps the bible and only the Church has the right to interprete the bible. Before bible was compiled into a single book as we know it now, Church had existed and had been preaching the gospel.

Syncan:


Haba oga, you said the church and Jesus is same, now you say the church (Jesus) can teach falsely, "if it has refused to go in line with the teaching of christ". So according to you, simply put, Jesus can teach falsely if he refuses to go in line with the teaching of Jesus.

Nothing we no go hear for this place!

Nothing we no go hear, I tell you.

Syncan:


Haba oga, you said the church and Jesus is same, now you say the church (Jesus) can teach falsely, "if it has refused to go in line with the teaching of christ". So according to you, simply put, Jesus can teach falsely if he refuses to go in line with the teaching of Jesus.

Nothing we no go hear for this place!

When I say 'the Church' can teach falsely, You should understand that I mean 'earthly gatherings.' Jesus has what he has laid down for us to follow (cos He's the head), now the body (the true Church) is the one that follow His teaching exactly as He has laid them down which definitely won't teach false things...furthermore, any denomination that teaches what's not in line with Christs' lessons is not his body therefore, not a Church.

adsonstone:

The book is not the basis, its the guide to Christian living and where we can learn from.

The basis for the Christian faith is simply:
Believing in Jesus as the Son of God, born of a virgin (Mary), Crucified (Died to save us), and Resurrected

At what point in time did a book take over the Church as the guide and who made it so?

At least we know a book wasnt the guide in the Acts 15 story. It was the Church.

Sal C: When you mentioned followshiping with your two friend, did you mention me?

OK my sister, I don't mind changing my example to accommodate what you are asking. So here:

Me and two friends believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son incarnate of the virgin Mary. We meet regularly to pray together and sing hymns. We invite you to join us whenever you are able anytime that we are meeting together.

Will you join us and will you see us as your brothers or simply as your separated brethren?

chidachris:

Its quite unbelievable that you say the apostles didn't know the bible. Even though it wasn't called bible in those days but "scriptures" which were contained in scrolls, on many occasions both jesus and the apostles in their teachings quoted the books of moses, isiah, daniel, samuel, psalms and all other prophets. So how did they know all this if they didn't have the scriptures?
The guide to a christian life is the bible cos it contains the word of God.
Jesus christ didn't preach doctrines but salvation and apostle paul said "we are saved by grace not by works that no man should boast in himself"
The only way to salvation is jesus christ and not a church.
The bible says " in those days the commandments were written on tablets of stone but now its written our hearts.
And lots more

My friend, go and learn what you dont know.

The apostles never knew a bible.

Almost all the apostles died before the Revelation was written.

You dont know and you wont be quiet.

adsonstone:

When I say 'the Church' can teach falsely, You should understand that I mean 'earthly gatherings.' Jesus has what he has laid down for us to follow (cos He's the head), now the body (the true Church) is the one that follow His teaching exactly as He has laid them down which definitely won't teach false things...furthermore, any denomination that teaches what's not in line with Christs' lessons is not his body therefore, not a Church.

Ha oga meeee! So we also need the Holy spirit to understand your conflicting statements abi?

Ok, now,

1.by "the church" you mean earthly gathering, and this can teach falsely.

Not like 2. "the true church" that cannot teach falsely.

Again, 3. any denomination teaching falsely is not the church

all these na you talk am, abeg which one we go take as true.

chidachris:

Its quite unbelievable that you say the apostles didn't know the bible. Even though it wasn't called bible in those days but "scriptures" which were contained in scrolls, on many occasions both jesus and the apostles in their teachings quoted the books of moses, isiah, daniel, samuel, psalms and all other prophets. So how did they know all this if they didn't have the scriptures?
The guide to a christian life is the bible cos it contains the word of God.
Jesus christ didn't preach doctrines but salvation and apostle paul said "we are saved by grace not by works that no man should boast in himself"
The only way to salvation is jesus christ and not a church.
The bible says " in those days the commandments were written on tablets of stone but now its written our hearts.
And lots more

The apostle Paul is believed to have quoted from Luke in 1 Timothy 5:18.

The apostle Peter referred to Paul's epistles; not only that, he referred to them as scriptures.

And also see more info on this threads:

https://www.nairaland.com/1257440/catholic-catholic-back-catholic

https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

And Amen at the Blue bolded!

Jesus said "I am the Way"

One denomination says: no person can be saved unless s/he submits to the Roman Pontiff!

So who is a Christian to believe?

adsonstone:

Yes, it is.
Simple, Its not there cos you don't need it (or not available when it was compiled). Love what you have and value it...its complete enough for you to learn from.

...compiled by who...and when?