BERNIMOORE: @italo

why do catholics reverence Mary as their “Supreme Pontiff.” because [size=14pt]It is a documented fact that the late Pope John Paul II relied more on Mary for salvation than on Jesus.[/size]

Pope John Paul made more than 40 pilgrimages to her shrines at Lourdes and Fatima. He wrote in his Apostolic Letter of Oct. 16, 2002, the following words:

[size=18pt]“I entrust this Apostolic Letter to the loving hands of the Virgin Mary, prostrating myself in spirit before her image in the splendid Shrine built for her by Blessed Bartolo Longo, the apostle of the Rosary.”
[/size]


Embroidered inside all of Pope John Paul’s robes was the phrase[/i], “Totus tuus sum Maria,” which means, “Mary, I am all yours.”

The Catholic Rosary concludes:
[size=18pt]“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!”[/size]

It is of interest when we ponder Roman Catholicism’s popular “15 Promises of Mary.” Among them we find:

[size=18pt]“The soul which recommends itself to me [Mary] by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish...I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall…at the moment of death…participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.”[/size]

It is obvious, then, that not only did the late pope worship Mary and place his eternal security in her, but it is equally obvious that “the faithful” follow in his footsteps. When Catholics turn from faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation to trusting Mary and the Rosary, as did Pope John Paul II, they place their eternal salvation in jeopardy why? because for Jesus Himself declared;

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)


If Jesus spoke the truth, and He did, there is zero security and salvation in Mary and the Rosary. In the pope’s “Prayer For The Marian Year,” he prayed:

[size=18pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”[/size]

do you see this above as normal? im just asking

italo: It so pleased the Holy Spirit to teach us through his Church...using the human faculties of the leaders of his Church in unison with the mind of the Church. If the Holy Spirit wanted to reach everybody directly, there'd be no need for a Church, Apostles or Bible.

If you decide to side-step the Church, your business.

italo:
Just like it pleased God to bring us to himself through his Son...but Muslims side-step the Son. There business too.

BERNIMOORE: @italo



why do catholics reverence Mary as their “Supreme Pontiff.” because [size=14pt]It is a documented fact that the late Pope John Paul II relied more on Mary for salvation than on Jesus.[/size]

Pope John Paul made more than 40 pilgrimages to her shrines at Lourdes and Fatima. He wrote in his Apostolic Letter of Oct. 16, 2002, the following words:

[size=14pt]“I entrust this Apostolic Letter to the loving hands of the Virgin Mary, prostrating myself in spirit before her image in the splendid Shrine built for her by Blessed Bartolo Longo, the apostle of the Rosary.”
[/size]


Embroidered inside all of Pope John Paul’s robes was the phrase[/i], “Totus tuus sum Maria,” which means, “Mary, I am all yours.”

The Catholic Rosary concludes:
“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!”

It is of interest when we ponder Roman Catholicism’s popular “15 Promises of Mary.” Among them we find:

“The soul which recommends itself to me [Mary] by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish...I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall…at the moment of death…participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.”

It is obvious, then, that not only did the late pope worship Mary and place his eternal security in her, but it is equally obvious that “the faithful” follow in his footsteps. When Catholics turn from faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation to trusting Mary and the Rosary, as did Pope John Paul II, they place their eternal salvation in jeopardy why? because for Jesus Himself declared;

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)


If Jesus spoke the truth, and He did, there is zero security and salvation in Mary and the Rosary. In the pope’s “Prayer For The Marian Year,” he prayed:

[size=14pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”[/size]

do you see this above as normal? im just asking

adsonstone:

David is NOT God, He is a man.

Jesus, Son of Man.
Jesus, Son of God.

Calling David God is blasphemy as we both know.

Mary, mother of Jesus, (mother of God according to Rcc)

All women that do God's will, mother of Jesus (according to Jesus Himself).
I wonder why the RCC has refused to accept them as 'mother of God' too....infact, worse of all, they are called 'CROWD'.

If Jesus is Son of God and Son of Man according to you, are you then saying man is God?

Also, Jesus said anything you do to the least of his brothers has been done to him.

Does that mean the least of his brothers are The Christ -The Messiah -The Almighty Father?

*more trolling to come*

the problem is that you have taken another mediator with the sole mediator that exist between God and Man.

adsonstone:

thats not the point.
The point is that there's a possibility of error in other matters outside faith and morals since they are fallible in them...

Yes or No?

BERNIMOORE:

bolded above, i concur! because in a desperate bid to justify the Trinity , and the catholic as a church in their bid to fashion a mediator between God and man outside Gods command, and since they equal God with jesus, mary has to rise to the challenge and position of jesus as "salvator"

adsonstone:
do you mean the Holy Spirit does not reach people directly but through the church?
Then of what use is the Holy Spirit given to individuals?

oh! I see.
If the Holy Spirit isn't useful to other christians, God would not even have given them the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps, He wud have just given it to the 'church leaders'....however, because It so pleased God to teach christians as individuals, He gave everyone the Holy spirit.
However, the church (assembly of christians) is there to strengthen our faith and Knowledge.

adsonstone: but your pope declared that muslims were on a way to God (knowing they side-step the Son)...

adsonstone: True or false?

italo:

You say so.

I ask: what was Christ's work on earth?

italo:

You failed to answer my question: are you infallible in every human field?

italo: The Holy Spirit can reach people outside the Church. He can even reach people who dont believe in God. Does it mean these people are in possession of the fullness of the truth? No!

italo:
It is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth. So says the same Holy Spirit.

italo:
You disagree? You think they, like all of you who possess partial truth cannot make heaven?

italo:
I dont know, until you show proof.

adsonstone:

Christ's mission??

To reconcile God and Man.

italo:

Is this "mediation" and/or "redemption?"

adsonstone:

no, you failed to answer mine and instead, you asked yours.

When you answer mine, I'll attend to yours.

Paul's advice to Timothy on health: does it have a possibility of being wrong (Since the RCC says Paul was fallible in that aspect)?

Just answer honestly, you wont die.

adsonstone:
the problem is that you have taken another mediator with the sole mediator that exist between God and Man.

italo: what was Christ's work on earth?

adsonstone:

Christ's mission??

To reconcile God and Man.

italo:

Is this "mediation" and/or "redemption?"

adsonstone:

Both.

Redemption and Mediation.

italo:

The doctrine of infallibility has nothing to do with matters outside doctrinal matters of faith and morals.

The very definition of infallibility by the Church provides that the matter is one of faith and morals.

Simple and short!

Do you want anything else before you answer me?

adsonstone:

Yes, that's true.

For Christians, the Holy Spirit is our 'personal' teacher.

Or is that false?

adsonstone: Yes, I agree.

If I may ask, what exactly is 'the truth'?

adsonstone: I don't, neither do I agree because I DON'T KNOW.

What I know, I will say. There's only one source of salvation which is Christ.

adsonstone: I hope you won't reject proof.

www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm

adsonstone:

wait, wait.
Syncan said the infallibility doctrine talks about only infallibility in matters of faith and morals....and He said, outside that, they're fallible.

Are you saying that is wrong....because I have believed him.

If thats wrong, tell me so I'd believe the infallibility doctrine is silent about matters outside faith and morals so, I can safely conclude that the doctrine doesnt even know the popes' position (of fallibility) in other matters...

italo:
You see that even St. Paul saw himself as God's co-worker. And since God's work on earth was to redeem man and mediate between man and God, Paul was co-redeemer and co-mediator.

italo:

1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building

italo:
What else is your problem with Catholics calling Mary "co-redemtrix?"

italo:
I dont know about that. Show me where the Bible says that.

italo:
That is a broad question. The truth is many things. What matters to me now is that The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (whatever "the truth" means).

italo:
It is the Holy Spirit that said so.

So you also believe it is possible for God to save people who are in error. If he can do that, then the Holy Spirit acting on/through someone is not a guarantee that he is not in error. Do we agree on this?

italo:
I have already given proof of this from Romans 2 and destroyed what appeared to be your earlier thinking that only people who believe what you believe will be saved.

italo:

Are you still ready to talk about Catholic doctrine?

Do you want to provide the teaching of infallibility as stated by any reputable Catholic source?

Let us see what you are challenging.

Read...read before you challenge.

adsonstone:

Now, this is perhaps the worst (so far) of all...from the RCC

Jesus Christ is not the sole redeemer of man.
Paul (and other Christians) are also redeemers of man and mediators between God and man.

Paul Himself needed to be saved and He was saved....by our Lord Jesus Christ.

adsonstone: yes, we are fellow labourers with God, we are God's tools.
Our part of that labour is the evangelism ie preaching the Gospel of Christ to all and telling them about the finished work of Christ.

Do you want us to go through this study?

adsonstone: The Holy Spirit says ONE and He names the ONE...Jesus Christ.

Yet, you claim you're inspired by Him.....is the Holy Spirit then contradicting Himself?

adsonstone:
talking to 'Christians'
Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes, He'll guide us into all truth.

adsonstone: since the truth is 'many things', kindly state some of these 'many things'.

adsonstone: no, we dont.
The Holy Spirit does not guide one into error.
If one is in error, once He comes, He guide the person into truth.

adsonstone: Destroyed?

So, this also applies to those who know the Son but side-step Him....right?

adsonstone:

Syncan defined infallibility, you defined infallibility....they were slightly different.

I asked you for which one to believe.....and you have given no reply.

Kamsy10: Normally I don't criticize churches, I just walk away from a church when I hear sermons that are hypocritical and certainly meant for selfish interests.
People that criticize the catholic church apparently dont know jack about the catholic church.
For me I am a catholic who once left the faith and joined other churches to see if there's a better church.Note I was a devoted worker in each church I went but after hearing and learning the stuff some of those pastors preach, MEHN, I quietly went back to the catholic faith. Catholic might have some shortcomings but it's unrivalled compared to the churches I've been to. I'm so happy I retraced my steps.

Here are some of the lies you'll hear from the pulpit:



1. Tithe/offering will take you to heaven since we live in the new testament now and God keeps no record of sins. Therefore tithe/offering is what really matters now.
(Meanwhile tithing was ONLY mentioned in the old testament)
2. If you need a job, car, child etc and you're not tithing, God will not bless you. (False)
(Haba. Even pro.sti.tutes get pregnant and have children.Many CEOs don't even go to church not to talk of tithe.Rom9:15 says 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,...etc. Matt 7:7 says ask and you shall receive. Check with the richest men in the world. Again pastors have to chose which one to emphasize and which ones not to. I don't blame them sha)

3. If you tithe, you cant be sick, loose your job, get into an accident or get robbed.
(So why do they run to the bank immediately after collecting tithes and offerings to avoid robbery. And they travel oversees for medical checkups, and fly jets and move around with heavy security guards)

4. God asked me to do this, God asked me to do that . Even to the point that God asked them to divorce and marry another one.
(1cor 6:9 says no adulterer shall see the kingdom of God. God has asked you to marry and divorce 2times and heading for the third one)

5. We now live in the new testament, the old testament doesn't count anymore. so dress however you like, men perm your hair if you like to church, youths can fornicate and it doesn't count, girls can come to church naked if it makes them comfortable, just do whatever you like, since Christ has died, you don't have any problem. We now live under grace.
(ok. so why is tithe the center of the sermon everyday knowing that tithe was only mentioned in the old testament. The funny part is the same pastors will say you should not add or remove from the word of God)

6. We are the true Christians, we're emulating Christ, we're Christ-like cos we're born again.
(ok. so why is this rule not applicable to the jet flying pastors. Last time I checked, Christ didn't have a private jet and he drove those who were turning the church into a money making venture but alas our pastors will be identifying with politicians so they too can get a brown envelope. Instead of preaching to them to help create employment for the jobless youths in the church, they simply shower prayers for them and collect offering. Doesn't sound like what the Christ I know will do)

7. Christ was very rich and he wore an expensive robe that is why they cast lots on his robe to decide who should have it.
(ok. Even if the robe was expensive, so your definition of a rich man is a person who has one expensive robe. Why fabricating lies such as these against Christ just to justify the acquisition of an aircraft.

8. We need jets cos we're spreading the gospel to china,japan,america etc
(How come all your pastors in those countries are not able to run the branches for you and then report to you. I guess you're the only one called by God. Nothing is wrong with visting once in a while. Why travelling there every week or month as the case may be or are you worried about them not giving you proper account of the money they're collecting.
Also I used to think they were actually converting the indigenes of those countries, but I discovered that in most of those churches,its mostly their tribal people that actually worship there. In other words,you'll only find only Africans there. Note: I've been to a few countries,and they've bn the same so far)

9.Catholics are doing confessions, blessing holy water, burning incense, worshipping images, and giving holy communion, therefore they are hell bound.
(Why do they have counseling sessions on a particular day of the week where the member tells them about his past life and and how they want God to forgive them and they want to turn a new live and They pray for him/her. Sorry that is not confession, it is called counseling. Did I mention that they carry the stickers of their pastor and his family on their cars, pictures in their homes, offices EVEN ON THEIR BIBLES. Did I mention that they now bless and give holy communion. Confirm from redeemed and winners chapel.
Also they bless handkerchiefs and carry them around like juju or otumokpor

10. God told me to start my own church that's why I started this church
( No problem but why do you become a stumbling block when one of your pastors receives the same vision and wants to start his own. Some even go as far as cursing the person. )



My point is "the last day will be full of surprises but I pray that God will have mercy on all of us" AMEN

Enigma: ^^ Paul and Mary died for mankind, perhaps?

italo:

Is it the Catholic Church that made Paul a "co-worker" with God? No. It was God

Is it the Catholic Church that alluded to the fact that God's work on earth was redemption and mediation on this thread? No. It was you.

Jesus is the sole high priest but all Christians share in his priesthood.



Which yeye study? Why not show me the Bible verses that say that our only part of the labour is preaching?

1Pet 4:13 says "But rejoice insofar as you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, so that you may also be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed."

And "suffering" there wasn't talking about preaching.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Did you see that?

2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation; if we are being consoled, it is for your consolation, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are also suffering.

Did you see that?! Paul suffered for your salvation...and it wasn't mere "preaching."

RCC says she's a co-redemtrix contrary to the Holy Spirit



I seriously dont know what your problem is. I am beginning to think it is plain hatred and envy.

Jesus is the only Son of God, yet we are all sons of God.

Jesus is the only High Priest, yet we all share his priesthood.

Jesus is the only one who "worked"(redeemed/saved us), yet Paul says he is a "co-worker" and he suffered for our salvation.
.

italo: 1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Haphazard-thinking anti-Catholic sees that St. Paul wrote something, yet he desperately tries to make it look like a Catholic 'invention.'

Well...if St. Paul sounds so Catholic, it's because he is Catholic!

italo:

You're losing the plot.

Read the definition of the Catholic Church...then let us have your issues with it.

It's no use discussing what you see as disparities between my definition and Syncan's.

Is it hard for you to read about what you're criticizing?

italo:
Jesus was talking to the Apostles - the leaders of his Church. And the Holy Spirit confirmed what I'm saying when he came. He said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth."

I dont know what you're still fighting for.

italo:
Jesus, his teachings, his death and resurrection, God etc.

italo:
The Holy Spirit can act on/through people in error. THIS IS TRUE!

The working of the Holy Spirit on/through an individual is not proof that the person is not in error. THIS IS TRUE!

italo:
You said that, not me.

All I know is that I have already thrashed that rubbish view that only those who believe what you believe are heaven-bound.

There is no need to clutch at straws.