Been real busy but,suffice it to say I'd post a rejoinder soon.Blessed be.

Sorry I've not been able to keep up with the posts here.
I've been quite busy over the weekend.

Friday: Preparation for the experience
Saturday; an outreach meeting in the morning and a wedding later in the day....itz just been 'tight'.

.....but I'm here now.
Hope you're all good.

4C2215131: Been following the arguments of these gentlemen. Well,from an intellectual standpoint without recourse to emotions,bias,and 'denominational bigotry' I daresay the onus is more on the catholics to elucidate further their points. Same thing applies to the opposition as I see a lot of contextual misinterpretation of scriptures,lack of proper biblical exegesis and more of eisegesis coupled with a flagrant dis-regard to the principle of hermeneutics.

Bottom line,there has been a lot of semantic maneuvering from both sides in other to score a point. Would want to ask the permission of the original thread owners to allow a brother make a submission now and then...un-biased,devoid of insult,and dispassionate of course.

You're most welcome sir.

You're always free to post your opinions/questions/comments/suggestions concerning the topic.

God Bless You.

italo:

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 

No be me write am for Holy Spirit.

Later, you'd say I'm interpreting literally.

Is this your non-literal interpretation?

If it is, indicate and let us continue.

italo:
If I pray to God on your behalf, I have mediated between you and God. The grammar and logic are as simple as ABC for any being with even an iota of honesty...but you make it seem difficult.

Christ's priesthood is mediatory! Who shares in it shares in mediation. Shikena!

Christ is the sole mediator between God and Man....according to the Holy Spirit.

I don't know why you and the RCC want to 'forcefully' include other mediators.

italo:
Paul knows that God can save people who dont believe in Jesus. The Pope knows too.

Yes, I also know the bold that the Apostle Paul knows and states in Romans 2.

Afterall, everyone even knows that nothing is impossible for God.


It is so pathetic that the RCC has twisted the message of 'God can Save' people outside Christ to 'God WILL save' people outside Christ.....as if they are God.

Smh.

italo:
You haven't shown where I said "man redeems man."

Why do you keep telling lies against me? Why the desperation?

Wait!

Are you trying to deny what you declared?
Or are you scared you will be further exposed that you said such?

italo:
St. Paul saw himself as God's co-worker. And since God's work on earth was to redeem man and mediate between man and God,Paul was co-redeemer and co-mediator.

italo:
Paul says he and his associates suffer for our
salvation i.e (by your very poor logical
application) they save - redeem us.

italo:
So any "co-worker" is a "co-redeemer.

Or will you deny saying all these again?

It is just so sad that you (may) still choose to deny what you say even before all the witnesses on this thread and even, you say that I lie against you.


Anyway, perhaps its not your fault.
Its the usual thing you do when you are exposed___try to deny and ask where you said that.

You have been saying men are redeemers/co-redeemers of men (as shown in the posts above) until you were exposed by Truthislight.

Thanks to Truthislight that showed where the Psalmist said men cannot redeem men....and suddenly, you changed your speech to 'I'm lying against you', 'show me where you/the RCC said that' and all sort of denial.

italo:
Oh! You mean the writer of Col 1:24 was a Buddhist?

Just own up and say you don't understand what that verse means but just stating it as you think it is.

If you really understand; state what is 'lacking' in the afflictions of Christ (for redemption) that Paul was filling.

italo:
And the Holy Spirit says pray and suffer for the salvation of men. That is mediation. I believe the Holy Spirit on both accounts.

That is mediation from your own imagination.....not necessarily of the Holy
Spirit.

italo:
Wait a minute! I thought you were infallible. The Holy Spirit deserted you then?.

In the first place; what did I claim 'infallibility' in? (Just answer honestly)

and what if I wasn't speaking infallibly....like the Pope...

Yawns

I like your spirit tho ..keep trying

italo:

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth! Twist it all you want.



The Holy Spirit can speak one truth or more through someone who is in error in other matters.

You didn't know this until I told you of Caiaphas...acknowledge it.

The bold is true.

I agree with it.

When the Holy Spirit uses someone, the person becomes infallible in doing/saying what the Holy Spirit has inspired/is inspiring.



The Holy Spirit used Caiaphas to prophesy of Jesus' sacrifice, so Caiaphas wasn't wrong....just as He the Apostles to write the Epistles and other inspired men to write other scriptures....who (perhaps), may be wrong in other things.

italo:

It is not my assumptions. Romans 2 shows that the teaching that only people who believe what adsonstone and Chris Okotie believe will be saved is wrong.

Now to Romans 2 that you have been talking over and over about.

What does it mean?

POPE II: Yawns

I like your spirit tho ..keep trying

Roman Catholic 'Pope',

Do you have anything to contribute?

If you do, pls contribute.

Adsonstone, since man cannot deny sin just the way the fishes In the water cannot deny water, on that note wat make's you think dat any man will go to heaven since noting unclean can go into the kingdom of God. Now this is the place where purgatory plays its role of purging people of their venial sin. Since noting unclean can enter the kingdom of God. Now wat is venial sin venial sin, is the sin that dis pleases God but does not kill the soul while mortal sin is the sin that does not only dis pleases God but also kill the soul while original sin is the sin that we inherited from adam and eve, now apart from that those little baby dat was killed thru abortion where do you think they go to? Heaven? Of course not because they have original sin with them, hell off course dat will be too wicked because they were not given the opportunity to live so they end up in a place the holy roman catholic church calls the limbo (protestants bring your heads down and learn)

adsonstone:

Later, you'd say I'm interpreting literally.

Is this your non-literal interpretation?

If it is, indicate and let us continue.

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

adsonstone: Christ is the sole mediator between God and Man....according to the Holy Spirit.

I don't know why you and the RCC want to 'forcefully' include other mediators.

Christ's priesthood is mediatory. Anyone who shares in it shares in mediation.

Praying to God for a man is mediation between God and man.

adsonstone: Yes, I also know the bold that the Apostle Paul knows and states in Romans 2.

Afterall, everyone even knows that nothing is impossible for God.


It is so pathetic that the RCC has twisted the message of 'God can Save' people outside Christ to 'God WILL save' people outside Christ.....as if they are God.

Smh.

Another LIE!

Show me where the Catholic Church says "God will save" and not "God can save."

And you didn't know it until I showed you...and it took you ages to acknowledge it. At some point you were even saying I was misinterpreting Rom 2.

adsonstone: Wait!

Are you trying to deny what you declared?
Or are you scared you will be further exposed that you said such?

Or will you deny saying all these again?

It is just so sad that you (may) still choose to deny what you say even before all the witnesses on this thread and even, you say that I lie against you.


Anyway, perhaps its not your fault.
Its the usual thing you do when you are exposed___try to deny and ask where you said that.

You have been saying men are redeemers/co-redeemers of men (as shown in the posts above) until you were exposed by Truthislight.

Thanks to Truthislight that showed where the Psalmist said men cannot redeem men....and suddenly, you changed your speech to 'I'm lying against you', 'show me where you/the RCC said that' and all sort of denial.

I never said "men redeem men." And you haven't shown me where I said that.

The Holy Spirit says men suffer for the salvation of men.

...And any co-worker with God's work is a co-redeemer, since God's work on earth is redemption.

adsonstone: Just own up and say you don't understand what that verse means but just stating it as you think it is.

If you really understand; state what is 'lacking' in the afflictions of Christ (for redemption) that Paul was filling.

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Direct your questions to St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: That is mediation from your own imagination.....not necessarily of the Holy
Spirit.

Praying to God on man's behalf and suffering for his salvation by God is mediation.

adsonstone: In the first place; what did I claim 'infallibility' in? (Just answer honestly)

and what if I wasn't speaking infallibly....like the Pope...

You claimed to be infallible.

You claimed to be always right when you interprete scripture or teach on matters of faith and morals.

You were wrong when you taught about the Bible.

It means you lied...as is your custom.

And while you taught wrong, you made us believe you were certain of what you were saying since you were being guided by the Holy Spirit...as you're doing now.

You just proved that you're just one of those who teach false doctrine and say it's the Holy Spirit.

Remember what happens to those who sin against the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone:

The bold is true.

I agree with it.

When the Holy Spirit uses someone, the person becomes infallible in doing/saying what the Holy Spirit has inspired/is inspiring.

The person doesn't necessarily become infallible. The Holy Spirit can speak through the High priest, a donkey or even fire. It doesn't mean they understand it, much less teaching it.

Infallibility entails the totality of revealed truths.

Anyone can speak a truth even without the influence of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't make them infallible on any matter.

adsonstone:
The Holy Spirit used Caiaphas to prophesy of Jesus' sacrifice, so Caiaphas wasn't wrong....just as He the Apostles to write the Epistles and other inspired men to write other scriptures....who (perhaps), may be wrong in other things.

Oh! At least you have finally shown you've learnt one thing from me: that the Holy Spirit can speak through one who is in error on other truths of faith and morals.

However, the Church, unlike Caiaphas cannot teach error on any matter of faith and morals. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

adsonstone: Now to Romans 2 that you have been talking over and over about.

What does it mean?

That the teaching that only people who believe like you and Chris Okotie will be saved is a lie.

adsonstone:


Roman Catholic 'Pope',

Do you have anything to contribute?

If you do, pls contribute.

I like the way we knock u but you keep coming back

4C2215131: Been following the arguments of these gentlemen. Well,from an intellectual standpoint without recourse to emotions,bias,and 'denominational bigotry' I daresay the onus is more on the catholics to elucidate further their points. Same thing applies to the opposition as I see a lot of contextual misinterpretation of scriptures,lack of proper biblical exegesis and more of eisegesis coupled with a flagrant dis-regard to the principle of hermeneutics.

Bottom line,there has been a lot of semantic maneuvering from both sides in other to score a point. Would want to ask the permission of the original thread owners to allow a brother make a submission now and then...un-biased,devoid of insult,and dispassionate of course.

Two of them can decide whether any one is to make a submission. as for me, this is not what I had in mind when I formed the thread. I formed it with a view to being an active participant before Italo started his trick.

The bold is true, and I know that Italo is more guilty of this just to prove his point. the italized bold says it all.

JMAN05:

Two of them can decide whether any one is to make a submission. as for me, this is not what I had in mind when I formed the thread. I formed it with a view to being an active participant before Italo started his trick.

The bold is true, and I know that Italo is more guilty of this just to prove his point. the italized bold says it all.

What did you have in mind?

An SSS interrogation room where you the special agent gets to cross-examine Italo the suspect without having to answer any of Italo's questions...

...or a thread where you can just vomit you frustration, envy and hatred for Catholicism without any regard for reason, logic, scripture and history?

italo:

What did you have in mind?

An SSS interrogation room where you the special agent gets to cross-examine Italo the suspect without having to answer any of Italo's questions...

...or a thread where you can just vomit you frustration, envy and hatred for Catholicism without any regard for reason, logic, scripture and history?

Anyone honesthearted person should go to page one to see whether I didnt give answer to his history, logic and reason. Oga I was not even talking to you in that comment. Just face your katata and stop complaining. When you are serious, I will know.

https://www.nairaland.com/1522201/defend-catholic-teachings-here/1

JMAN05:

Two of them can decide whether any one is to make a submission. as for me, this is not what I had in mind when I formed the thread. I formed it with a view to being an active participant before Italo started his trick.

The bold is true, and I know that Italo is more guilty of this just to prove his point. the italized bold says it all

And then..

JMAN05:

Anyone honesthearted person should go to page one to see whether I didnt give answer to his history, logic and reason. Oga I was not even talking to you in that comment. Just face your katata and stop complaining. When you are serious, I will know.

https://www.nairaland.com/1522201/defend-catholic-teachings-here/1

How__to_catch_a_ christian liar 101

try69:

And then..



How__to_catch_a_ christian liar 101

oga I said 'not talking "to"'. I dont want to be teaching people english here pls.

For record purposes, after I answered JMAN's 9 questions, I asked him just 1:

Are you fallible or infallible?

Almost 900 posts later, still no answer.

That is if the Bible teaches that "soul is Imortal", then and only then can you ever think to proceed with what you posted below.

Dont you see that the teaching of imortal soul means that satan was right in saying that "Adam will not die" ? Cant you see it is a teaching that supports satans stance in Eden ?

hisxlency: Adsonstone, since man cannot deny sin just the way the fishes In the water cannot deny water, on that note wat make's you think dat any man will go to heaven since noting unclean can go into the kingdom of God. Now this is the place where purgatory plays its role of purging people of their venial sin. Since noting unclean can enter the kingdom of God. Now wat is venial sin venial sin, is the sin that dis pleases God but does not kill the soul while mortal sin is the sin that does not only dis pleases God but also kill the soul while original sin is the sin that we inherited from adam and eve, now apart from that those little baby dat was killed thru abortion where do you think they go to? Heaven? Of course not because they have original sin with them, hell off course dat will be too wicked because they were not given the opportunity to live so they end up in a place the holy roman catholic church calls the limbo (protestants bring your heads down and learn)

We should leave the debate for "imortality of the soul" for another day, cause all you have said up there hangs on the doctrine that soul is Imortal.

Make your personal research in the bible and see what its stand is on soul befor even going to purgatory.

If you belief that Yahweh exist and he cannot lie, then take his side and believe him when he told Adam that he will die if he ate the fruit, unless you have decided to believe satan that said he will not die.

italo:


Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Christ's priesthood is mediatory. Anyone who shares in it shares in mediation.

Praying to God for a man is mediation between God and man.

Another LIE!

Show me where the Catholic Church says "God will save" and not "God can save."

And you didn't know it until I showed you...and it took you ages to acknowledge it. At some point you were even saying I was misinterpreting Rom 2.

I never said "men redeem men." And you haven't shown me where I said that.

The Holy Spirit says men suffer for the salvation of men.

...And any co-worker with God's work is a co-redeemer, since God's work on earth is redemption.

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Direct your questions to St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

Praying to God on man's behalf and suffering for his salvation by God is mediation.


You claimed to be infallible.

You claimed to be always right when you interprete scripture or teach on matters of faith and morals.

You were wrong when you taught about the Bible.

It means you lied...as is your custom.

And while you taught wrong, you made us believe you were certain of what you were saying since you were being guided by the Holy Spirit...as you're doing now.

You just proved that you're just one of those who teach false doctrine and say it's the Holy Spirit.

Remember what happens to those who sin against the Holy Spirit.

You are misrepresenting that Col. 1:24.

Read from verses 20 below:

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; 'by him', I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:" (Colossians 1:20-24).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;" (Colossians 1:25).
.......................

Take note of that ^, paul suffering was in the ministry of preaching the gospel. He was not the one that made reconciliation possible, but christ deed via his death, "him alone" ^.

The commision that was given to christian is very clear enough, and in it apostle paul had a great shear even to the point of suffering.

See the work below:

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit: " (Matthew 28:19).
..............................

That ^ is the work and the part apostle paul had a shear, and that is the work that Jesus left behind, and it is that ^ work of Jesus that he is fulfulling and completing.

All christians are to have a shear in that ^ work.

Redemption of mankind and buying them back was an exclussive of Jesus christ, we only builth on that opportunity by bringing people into that fevour and opportunity that is opened up when we preach to other people about it like paul did and follow his example just as he followed christ example and christ followed Yahweh's example.

^^^

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Try harder!

2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION.

Try harder!

italo: ^^^

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Try harder!

No. I have nothing to "try", apostle paul talked about the ministry he was given and that is what he was talking about, hence his letters was to the church and he preached to the gentiles too.

If he paid for the ransom of man like christ did, you are yet to show it.

He urged christians to imitate him just as he imitates christ. Simple!
Does that now men that we also paid the ransom and redeem mankind also ?

All the apostles suffered and most were killed like apostle paul, does that mean that they all paid for the ransom ? No.

In your effort to Justify whatever you people do with mary, you had to go thriugh this, really ?

You have to do a better work friend.

You cannot justify what your whole RCC does as a procedure with an out of context scripture.

We are waiting please.

italo: 2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION.

Yeah!

The apostles suffered and went through a great deal for the sake of the ministry of christ.

But in no way did that make them the ransomers.

The bible said it was through one man that sin entered into the world, and death spread to all men because of the action of that one man Adam.

So also, through the action of 'one' man, all men are set on and have the privilage of reconciliation to God.

But Italo and RCC says No, it is done through all men, hence, Jesus effort is being erased and rubbished, to enable them to install mary, the queen of heaven. Smh.

People should better shine their eyes for their own life sake.

JMAN05:

oga I said 'not talking "to"'. I dont want to be teaching people english here pls.

Abeg go sleep.. How do you mention someone and don't refer to him

I'd teach you contextual english instead

italo: 2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION.

Try harder!

He needs more people to help him do the twisting

try69:

Abeg go sleep.. How do you mention someone and don't refer to him

I'd teach you contextual english instead

I know you want me to teach you what "talking to" means. go to school, you will learn it.

JMAN05:

I know you want me to teach you what "talking to" means. go to school, you will learn it.

Thank you..though if I accuse Jman05 of twisting scriptures while talking to italo , it is assumed I "referred to" jman05. It's all good, you win.

Oya, help your brothers twist 2 Cor 1:5, 6 let the thread move on without derail

You still have not successfully twisted the following verses. They still remain as they are.

Maybe you should try rewriting the Bible...

Or take St. Paul to court...

2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION.

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

try69:

Thank you..though if I accuse Jman05 of twisting scriptures while talking to italo , it is assumed I "referred to" jman05. It's all good, you win.

Oya, help your brothers twist 2 Cor 1:5, 6 let the thread move on without derail

Habah!! what is wrong with your brain? I was talking to someone else not Italo. why still doubt simple things like this?

replace that "referred to" with "talked to", if your eye remains blocked, then forget the matter abeg ooo.

Italo has justified the 'expression' he made with Col. 1:24, there is no need of pressing the issue. But if the argument is on redeeming people with his blood, Christ's sacrifice has done that completely, it was'nt incomplete. That colosians doesnt contradict this at all. But some are not acquainted with this provision. here is where we come in, to preach the word, so that people will benefit. With our preaching alone, aside from his blood, those we preach to cant be redeemed. inshort our preaching is so that they will put faith in him and be redeemed.

On the issue of mediating the new covenant, Christ did it alone. On the issue of reaching God with our prayers, Christ does it alone, ie it must pass through Christ before reaching God. He is the high Priest. He alone. I think this is the issue under discussion. I think they are battling the word co-mediator by Mary. I dont want to get involved fully in this until my earlier words are attended to.

^^^

Haters be making a fool of themselves.

They dont know the Catholic Church doesn't call Mary "co-mediator"...and they "battling against the word."

Battling against something that doesn't exist.

That's what hatred and envy does to their brains.

LMAO! "Protestants will keep protesting," they say.

POPE II: I like the way we knock u but you keep coming back

Perhaps, Plato was right when He said (from his philosophical view) that; "wise people talk because they have something to say but unwise people talk because they have to say something"

italo:


Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Yes, Paul had to suffer....because He MUST suffer.

My point is Paul was not suffering ANYTHING that has to do with Redemption as you said.
Christ suffered ALL for redemption.

Or do you still want to say something else.

italo:
Christ's priesthood is mediatory. Anyone who shares in it shares in mediation.

Praying to God for a man is mediation between God and man.

That's your own opinion, not necessarily of the Holy Spirit----I repeat.

italo:
Another LIE!

Show me where the Catholic Church says "God will save" and not "God can save."

I still can't believe that you say this.

Have you forgotten that the RCC says 'God will save muslims' (and I showed you the evidence of that statement--from a RCC source) knowing fully well that they are outside Christ and you even said that they sidestep the Son....


Now, being a fraud (just as the RCC), you want to change the message back to 'God can Save'.

italo:
And you didn't know it until I showed you...and it took you ages to acknowledge it. At some point you were even saying I was misinterpreting Rom 2.

The bold---- , you can lie sha....
What a pity!

italo:
I never said "men redeem men." And you haven't shown me where I said that.

But you said this abi...

italo:
...And any co-worker with God's work is a co-redeemer

...and this

italo:
Paul says he and his associates suffer for our
salvation i.e (by your very poor logical
application) they save - redeem us.

So, what do you mean if not 'men redeem/co-redeem mankind'?

Oya, twist/change your own words to suit circumstances

italo:
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Direct your questions to St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

If you can't say what is lacking in Christ's suffering, then you don't understand what that verse is talking about.

italo:
You claimed to be infallible.

You claimed to be always right when you interprete scripture or teach on matters of faith and morals.

You were wrong when you taught about the Bible.

It means you lied...as is your custom.

And while you taught wrong, you made us believe you were certain of what you were saying since you were being guided by the Holy Spirit...as you're doing now.

You just proved that you're just one of those who teach false doctrine and say it's the Holy Spirit.

Remember what happens to those who sin against the Holy Spirit.

The bold is a lie (and I request an evidence for your allegation regarding the bold).

Why do you love mixing lies with truth....so much?

Anyway, it is a custom of the RCC.

Remember what will happen to liars as stated in Revelation 21:8