Joshthefirst: no, the final cause is not arbitrary, simple reasoning and pondering would show his attributes in creation. The universe or multiverse cannot be the final cause, as it is not conscious, the energy within it cannot be physically created from nothing, etc. All around us, our surroundings, we see purposelessness, but in our immediate vicinity, we see the blunt intelligence and direction on and of earth and our solar system. Why would you ignore and blindly deny all these things because of the desperation and tenacity with which you value your highly "convenient" atheistic worldview?

You should be better than that.

RoyPCain: @Olaochi; so if you can't even understand the bold, a language you as a hybrid is, how then do you categorically claim that Allah is not Oluwa, Olorun, Chineke, indeed is His Personal Name as Ibrahim [AS] is His Intimate Friend? What i wrote that i will say in Sajda [Position of prostration in Prayer], while my Salah [Ritualistic Prayer] is valid is an indication that Muslims worship God in their languages, when the option is made available. You see, obedience is willingly obeying command, whether so simple that it is effortless or complicated that you have to struggle to do it with great amount of effort.

while i agree with you about the bold, in reality not all Gods are Truly Gods because The True God is 1. Allah says in the Quran that if God is more than 1 each would have been trying to overcome the other, trying to weaken Him and they would have made alliances coming together trying to compete with The Irresistible. Allah in the verse destroys the possibility of any competitor or equal. Allah says in another verse a similitude about how easy is the life and objective responsibility of a servant with One Master against the impossible and difficult life of another servant which has Masters of equal Power, each sending him errant of His own, all at the same time. The slave with One Master will carry out his duties in the order the Master states them while the slave with many Master will be punished by the other master[s] whose command[s] was/were carried out after the first command from another Master. In short, it is Mercy on creation that knows God is One because obedience and worship is easier. Those who made up obedience and worship create their own more than 1 God, no God, etc.

I worship Olorun The Irresistible Allah. I ma not an idolater so the Orisha is not for me. You should know that idolatry is the work of satan and i am not a follower of the accursed satan.

OlaoChi:

English Bible is pure poo, Yoruba Bible would be worse.

One thing is you shouldn't claim Olorun has same with Jehovah because they are not

Kay 17:

Ok, then what made God conscious and intelligent? Because conscious and intelligent beings don't drop from the sky.

Joshthefirst: go and read the convo between me and plaetton. God is self-existent and eternal. You're bringing in infinite regression once more.

plaetton:

Yeah. God self-existent and eternal only because he lives deep inside your convoluted brain.

Enigma:

You want to buy a vote for the poster of the year award thing?

Joshthefirst: go and read the convo between me and plaetton. God is self-existent and eternal. You're bringing in infinite regression once more.

Kay 17:

You mean to say God was always intelligent, always conscious, and super! Yet a gas that lacks all that complexity, basic and simple must caused?!

Why can't something simpler be the final cause? How do we conceptualise life (that of God) to be without cause?

Joshthefirst: how is the bible poo?

What are the attributes of the Olorun or Olofin?

OlaoChi:

I have read the Bible very well and it's just Jewish men feeling proud that's why they are so racist. They think only them are Gods people when African nations have had their own Gods.

Even in the Bible it states that "Every nation should walk in the name of it's God"

Yahweh is to Israel, Olorun is to Yoruba.
Before Christianity got to West Africa, people have been Worshiping a God so why force them to worship your own God?


We know Olorun is the Supreme God of Yoruba people and Is worshipped through Orisa or Osa just like Christians worship Jehovah through Jesus

But to Christians and Muslims you try to force your concept of God on people
How can you say you worship Olorun when you don't recognize His Orisha children?
That's like saying you worship Jehovah but call Jesus(his son) a worthless demon

by OlaoChi(f): 10:57pm On Dec 21
Mr. Islam Allah is to Arabs alone, he has been there from the beginning of the Arabian race as their God and they had others until Mohammed came along

Ibrahim was from Ur kasdim in Iraq it's impossible for him to have called his God "Allah" and according to the Bible, Yahweh is his God and he choose.Israel alone above all nations

That I call a big lie because No God the creator of everything and everyone would choose only one people, but upon the fact that Yahweh choose them what did they achieve? Israel were often humiliated in war, one would guessed that a nation that 'only God' has chosen would be the greatest nation But that wasn't the case

The Israelites were only feeling high and proud so they created a God for themselves who was against other nations

It's a big lie, Muslims pray and do almost everything in Arabic and in the Arabian way

while i agree with you about the bold, in reality not all Gods are Truly Gods because The True God is 1. Allah says in the Quran that if God is more than 1 each would have been trying to overcome the other, trying to weaken Him and they would have made alliances coming together trying to compete with The Irresistible. Allah in the verse destroys the possibility of any competitor or equal. Allah says in another verse a similitude about how easy is the life and objective responsibility of a servant with One Master against the impossible and difficult life of another servant which has Masters of equal Power, each sending him errant of His own, all at the same time. The slave with One Master will carry out his duties in the order the Master states them while the slave with many Master will be punished by the other master[s] whose command[s] was/were carried out after the first command from another Master. In short, it is Mercy on creation that knows God is One because obedience and worship is easier. Those who made up obedience and worship create their own more than 1 God, no God, etc.


You can't say Any persons God isn't true because u have no proof for your God

That's more lies from Quran, In Greek religion Numerous Gods exist and they coexist peacefully with Zeus making all the rules, nobody tries to compete with Zeus not even Hades can.

Easiness is not a basis for 'one God'. Numerous Gods is every easy and it's nor as if the servant worships all at ones, the servant is born in a family that acknowledged one master has being more prevalent in their lives for instance Fishermen would serve the Sea God and Hunters serve the Hunt God

Wat makes u think Olorun is the same with Allah? Because I know those two well enough to see more difference than similarities. So give a list of their attributes and state why u think their the same

Idolatry is part of the Yoruba customs and if u are Yoruba and want to live as a Yoruba u must be idolatrous because that's how the Yoruba worship their God

Yoruba don't believe in Satan, Esu is not Satan

Joshthefirst: God is not a concept. And this leads me to the next part;

Although men percieved God and acknowledged his attributes and himself. We always try to make false images of the creator to suit our consciences. Because the fact remains that if this creator exists, our very existence will bear its hinges on him. And his purpose.

Men always made false images of God, so God chose to reveal himself. He started with a faithful man, and made a nation for himself, and expanded to the ends of the earth.



Today, anyone can call on the creator. He has revealed himself. He has reconciled man to himself once more. He commands people to repent and change their ways and seek him.


Merry Christmas.

Joshthefirst: what do you mean? we see complexity and balance in everything in existence.

because the complexity and direction is oposed to a simple cause. There is a creator. His touch show his attributes of power and intelligence.

Your second question is a repeat question again. Carefully read the op. The world cannot be self-existent from infinity, because the world itself is tending to disorder.

RoyPCain: @Olaochi; either deception or half cup info is your problem. actually, it may be both. Every human starting from Adam [AS] knows there is 1 God Who is The Creator. even the atheist knows, but tries hard to hide the truth, except that when he is under pressure, his inner self cries out to God. Before Arab paganism, God Almighty Allah is known to them because they didn't say Yahweh or your favorite Zeus. The very 'way' yorubas know Olorun, the arabs know Allah. the others you said they have are idols, imported concept and not authentic to monotheistic believers. The first ever idols were preached against by prophet Noah [AS], who prayed for destruction of the idolaters of his time, hence the flood.

Today the home original of Ibrahim [AS] say Allah when the people mean God Almighty Creator. There is a ring of truth there for those who reflect. they are not saying what the Bible says. Allah is in Absolute Control. Islam of Muhammad [SA] won hand's down.

the muslims are in the same situation, now. we say it is a test, separating the believers in hard times, being patient and hopeful and exposed the the secret disbelievers by their hypocrisy because under pressure the crack, abandoning faith.

we will not behave like the jews. We shall continue to supplicate to God to relieve us of the hardship. We are certain that the end will be great by His Mercy.

olaochi. i make personal prayers in yoruba during my ritualistic prayer known as salat. I tell you what i do, you say its a big lie as if you are the one doing it. may be you should ask a knowledgeable delta muslim about making supplication in his/her language during salah. Sheikh Musa Menk even has a video on youtube making supplication in english during salat in south africa.

Allah my God took the soul of Pharaoh of Moses [AS] and ordered the preservation of his body for future generation to see the end of the tyrannical pharaoh. Old Testament didn't mention it. The Quran is the only Book of Guidance that says this. This is an evidence that my God, Allah is Certainly The God Who Alone Creates. Allah says He is our Creator and all that we create.

i provide info you should think about. instead of pondering, you decide to give opinion, first. now go back and think about it; make it 2 core course classes in two different departments at the same time. How easy is it for a student to be present in both at the same time? consider the easy of the student that has just 1 class at that time. are their easy the same or neither is in difficulty?

remember i am yoruba and you are not? i know my people; what they worship that i will not worship. what we say of same name [Olorun] to mean Allah to Muslim, but at least One of the Trinitarian Gods to Christian.

Not all that is yoruba culture that is correct. some need to be abandoned altogether; facial marks, body marks, female circumcision, etc. Idolatry is worse than any of these; the height of what must be abandoned.

esu is satan. idolater worships it. it is esu that makes idolaters or athiest worship other than Solely Allah or adopt their intellect falsely arguing against God.

OlaoChi:

You say God is not a concept, how come the Japanese God is different from the Roman God, how come the Yoruba God is different from the Hindu God

Everyone has his concept of God and None should be scrutinized and labeled false for being different from yours

You believe in the Israel God but to a Japanese your God is false, how can u prove Israel's stories of God is the truth and not another false image?

Kay 17:
My question was God is far more complex than a simple gas (oxygen), and yet you expect such a gas to be necessarily created. Same goes for artificial intelligence, you would be unable to accept that such can arise naturally without any designs, yet God being far more complex has no cause?!

If so, the concept of causality is put into question! That causality is not generally applicable!

Kay 17: @joshthefirst

BUT this throws away your premise that everything is caused, in the light of what you are saying, not everything is caused ie God and probably artificial intelligence.

Now the suggestion that God caused everything becomes doubtful, as its not everything that is caused.

OlaoChi: So You mean a person needs to show the works of his God in his life? So wat do you say about Christians who embezzled money from the government and spread corruption in the country, is that Jehovah showing himself through his followers

Or Christians who are living in poor conditions with different problems Jehovah has not solved, is that how he shows he is the true image of the creator?

aManFromMars: Of course. There is no TRUE christian. All Christians are hypocrites.

On one hand, you illustrate the qualities of the ideal Christian. But you're unwilling and unable to point at one because there's none. What's that old saying about God judging the heart while men judge by looks?

Can a Christian sin and falter? Yes, they can. Yes, they will. Yes, they do. Over and over again.

Joshthefirst: nonsense. Go and look around. They're everywhere. By their fruits you know them. By their sacrifice.

aManFromMars: Of course. There is no TRUE christian. All Christians are hypocrites.

On one hand, you illustrate the qualities of the ideal Christian. But you're unwilling and unable to point at one because there's none. What's that old saying about God judging the heart while men judge by looks?

Can a Christian sin and falter? Yes, they can. Yes, they will. Yes, they do. Over and over again.

aManFromMars:
Hypocrite. When a person does good, he's Christian. When he does wrong, he isn't. What then does he become? An atheist? A Muslim? Unbeliever?

The prodigal son remained the son of his father, despite the mistakes he made. He never lost his 'sonship'. Maybe you should spend a little time studying that parable.

Joshthefirst: my stand is that God is the starter. The one who "caused" all things into existence in the beginning.

no it isn't. Why will you blame hypocrisy on God's followers, why would you ignore what is being done by Gods followers showing his nature and look at other people's hypocrisy and use their hypocrisy as an excuse? That's just biased and even pathetic.

my stand is that God is the starter. The one who "caused" all things into existence in the beginning.

aManFromMars:
Hypocrite. When a person does good, he's Christian. When he does wrong, he isn't. What then does he become? An atheist? A Muslim? Unbeliever?

The prodigal son remained the son of his father, despite the mistakes he made. He never lost his 'sonship'. Maybe you should spend a little time studying that parable.

OlaoChi:

Ok so those ones with the features I mentioned are not Jehovah's followers even though they claim christianity?

So give the attributes of a Christian who isn't hypocritical and a true Jehovah follower

Kay 17: @joshthefirst



Ok, I would let you go on the causality premise. Still it is hypocrisy to believe the Universe requires a cause as a result of its complexity and in the face of a greater complexity (God) blindly deny the necessity of its cause. *EDITED

Kay 17: To my next objection, from what did God create the Universe and everything?

Joshthefirst:
when a person derails and still makes the bold claim of being in the right with God, he is a hypocrite. The prodigal son realized he was wrong and repented. Wise people did not use his wrong-doing as an excuse to rebel against his father.

Be wise and think before speaking in ignorance.



Galatians 5:22 But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives.


It doesn't mean he is perfect of himself, but as he walks in God, God works in him until the perfect day.

texanomaly:

Wow Josh...you go Buddy!

aManFromMars: goot, goot. Same way a Christian can misbehave, be a rebel and still repent. Doesn't mean he ever stopped being a Christian.

But I don't understand you to get this.