rationalmind:

Saying God is uncaused, uncreated, self existent is actually a logical fallacy called Begging the Question a.ka. Pettitio principii

BEGGING THE QUESTION



here is another that drives home the point better



in essence, you have just assumed God is uncaused, uncreated, bla bla bla, without any single evidence or logic to back it up. Saying its an implied attribute of the starter also begs the question and means nothing.

The implication of your argument is, anyone can simply say any uncaused, uncreated thing caused the universe. I might say, Zeus is the uncaused, uncreated being, platteon might also say, the spaghetti meatball is the uncaused, uncreated being. We all will end up begging the question

no actually, you and your people will end up being foolish. Did you read the op? It doesn't matter the language we use to describe God, for this universe implies its creators attributes. We call him olorun in yoruba(or olofin), we call him chineke, in hausa, he's called allah(I speak of the supreme being). He is eternal and almighty. The universe itself bears witness to the fact of its creator. Anyone who calls upon this creator sincerely will find him.
Unfortunately, people like you foolishly look at the universe and its diversity and conclude there is no creator, and even go about broadcasting your foolishness. How does people adressing God in different ways nihilize his being?
Let me show you an example of someone calling on God according to his attributes, and making him his lord, his personal God and master.

Genesis 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Abraham did not just call on any Lord or God, he named Gods attribute, he named God; THE LORD, the ETERNAL GOD. The creator is eternal. All through Genesis, we see God revealing himself to people, and people calling on his name, calling on the God of abraham, calling on the almighty God


And please don't say "sphagetti meatball" in any quote of me anymore, unless you want to be ignored.

The next step is description and alignment with life and religious systems, or irreligious systems.

plaetton: @josh
So, for fear of infinite regression,we must, as a Necessity, create a god.
Is that what you are saying?

no, for the necessity of a source, implied by creation, and the stupidity of infinite regression, we acknowledge God

OlaoChi:

I won't argue with you

But answer this.... give me one name for the God u believe in

the Eternal God, the Almighty God, the One who Created all Things.

Next part:

Now, the fact of the creator and his attributes such as Power, his eternal nature, his all-knowing nature etc, which are obvious to the critical eye observing nature leads us to the next step.

The "why's",
Why would this creator create us? What is his purpose? To sit back and watch? What have we got to do with him?

the reason the genesis account tells the most realistic account of the creator and his purpose is because it explains our purpose and the reason there is so much evil and suffering on earth.

Back later.

Joshthefirst: no actually, you and your people will end up being foolish. Did you read the op? It doesn't matter the language we use to describe God, for this universe implies its creators attributes. We call him olorun in yoruba(or olofin), we call him chineke, in hausa, he's called allah(I speak of the supreme being). He is eternal and almighty. The universe itself bears witness to the fact of its creator. Anyone who calls upon this creator sincerely will find him.
Unfortunately, people like you foolishly look at the universe and its diversity and conclude there is no creator, and even go about broadcasting your foolishness. How does people adressing God in different ways nihilize his being?
Let me show you an example of someone calling on God according to his attributes, and making him his lord, his personal God and master.

Genesis 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Abraham did not just call on any Lord or God, he named Gods attribute, he named God; THE LORD, the ETERNAL GOD. The creator is eternal. All through Genesis, we see God revealing himself to people, and people calling on his name, calling on the God of abraham, calling on the almighty God


And please don't say "sphagetti meatball" in any quote of me anymore, unless you want to be ignored.

The next step is description and alignment with life and religious systems, or irreligious systems.

I should had known better. Sorry for replying you

Joshthefirst: no actually, you and your people will end up being foolish. Did you read the op? It doesn't matter the language we use to describe God, for this universe implies its creators attributes. We call him olorun in yoruba(or olofin), we call him chineke, in hausa, he's called allah(I speak of the supreme being). He is eternal and almighty. The universe itself bears witness to the fact of its creator. Anyone who calls upon this creator sincerely will find him.
Unfortunately, people like you foolishly look at the universe and its diversity and conclude there is no creator, and even go about broadcasting your foolishness. How does people adressing God in different ways nihilize his being?
Let me show you an example of someone calling on God according to his attributes, and making him his lord, his personal God and master.

Genesis 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Abraham did not just call on any Lord or God, he named Gods attribute, he named God; THE LORD, the ETERNAL GOD. The creator is eternal. All through Genesis, we see God revealing himself to people, and people calling on his name, calling on the God of abraham, calling on the almighty God


And please don't say "sphagetti meatball" in any quote of me anymore, unless you want to be ignored.

The next step is description and alignment with life and religious systems, or irreligious systems.

Allah is not Hausa it's Arabic stop forcing a God on people

Allah is very different from the Hausa God

And why don't u serve Olorun(A Nigerian God) since u know He is the creator why sell out your country for Israel?

You talk of Abraham, wats Olorun's business with Abraham?

Joshthefirst: no, for the necessity of a source, implied by creation, and the stupidity of infinite regression, we acknowledge God

the Eternal God, the Almighty God, the One who Created all Things.

Anybody can be called the creator even Satan can be called creator and Jehovah called the rebellious son

Which Almighty God are u talking about?
1. Olorun
2. Chineke
3. Zeus
5. Odin
6. Izanagi
7. Jehovah
8. Allah

There's many almighty God so choose one

Kay 17:

Assuming there is no fun in that, designing presumes a preexisting world with its own physical laws, which the designer must observe. For example a car manufacturer can not build a car if he does not consider the laws and principles of motion

@ the bolded...I agree

We have no way of knowing the laws and parameters of a preexistence. Except for that in scripture, mythology and folk lore, there is no proof of such. You do not believe in a preexistence and you do not believe the bible to be true. With those facts in mind, it is pointless to engage in a debate with you. We both know I have no way of proving my belief in a creator. Fortunately for me, your permission to continue believing as I do is not a priority for me. I am, however, grateful that you have the right to believe or not to believe what you wish. I kinda like you. You are intelligent, and not pushy. I'm uncertain of your gender. I've made the mistake of going by names before. You are an okay...person.

texanomaly:

@ the bolded...I agree

We have no way of knowing the laws and parameters of a preexistence. Except for that in scripture, mythology and folk lore, there is no proof of such. You do not believe in a preexistence and you do not believe the bible to be true. With those facts in mind, it is pointless to engage in a debate with you. We both know I have no way of proving my belief in a creator. Fortunately for me, your permission to continue believing as I do is not a priority for me. I am, however, grateful that you have the right to believe or not to believe what you wish. I kinda like you. You are intelligent, and not pushy. I'm uncertain of your gender. I've made the mistake of going by names before. You are an okay...person.

So, erm.....err .....ehem.......err......what the fawk is this comment supposed to mean?



Are you trying to praise Kay, or disagree with his/her point or what? What does being an okay person have to do with his/her point?


Sorry, just trying to understand you

@Olaochi; i was just passing by and i got a whiff of your post, so i stop to response. its your name and i hope its not a yoruba because we dont have ch?

and to those who say why can't The True God 'wills' instead of 'create', Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala 'wills' things to existence by saying "Be" {Kun}. It automatically "so it becomes" {Fa ye Kun}. Allah does not do work, implied or manual, but commands. Allah says He brought things out of nothing, all living things out of water [though there are other ingredients; soil in the case of man and of course the soul/spirit created which He allows to be breath into man so that the mere soil and water become flesh, bone, blood, etc and a living man].

Allah says He make jinn and man to exist with free will among creation so that they can worship Him. it is the freedom to obey and worship or refuse to worship by disobedience will be the basis of Judgement, under the Mercy of God.

by OlaoChi(f): 12:40pm
I believe there is a creator, the problem is the true identity of the creator

Is it
1. Allah
2. Jehovah
3. Chineke
4. Olorun
5. Zeus
6. Odin


Wat if all these are not even the true identity but just Human beings being imaginative and creative to form a God amongst their society

I can come and claim the true God is Kazami but how can I prove my belief over others?

Pls don't force a name of a God upon people, that's why I don't like all this Islam and Jesus people because they praise the name of a God that is not from their land.

if you believe there is a Creator, what unique Quality do you think the Creator should have, except what He says about Himself? Will God have qualities that are defective, unGodly and not Unique and Superior in every way? should He worship or all true worship belongs to Him?

so the Name of God must be from your land? I agree. When i prostrate in Salat, i make personal request to The One Who creates and created among the creation in yoruba. Here is an example that i will say sometimes in my future: Olorun o. Jowo omo olaochi to wa ni Nairaland yi, bami so di muslima, ko le fori bale fun Iwo to ta nkon gbo.

Logicboy03:


So, erm.....err .....ehem.......err......what the fawk is this comment supposed to mean?



Are you trying to praise Kay, or disagree with his/her point or what? What does being an okay person have to do with his/her point?


Sorry, just trying to understand you

I said I agree with the bolded. We both know that any comment or question, is to draw me into a debate where I will lay my beliefs out and she/he cross examines me and ultimately declares insufficient evidence. I'm not interested in debating any of you. I'm not interested in changing my belief. I don't care if that is all they are (beliefs). They are mine, and I am protective of them. So back off LB! With all due respect.

texanomaly:

I said I agree with the bolded. We both know that any comment or question, is to draw me into a debate where I will lay my beliefs out and she/he cross examines me and ultimately declares insufficient evidence. I'm not interested in debating any of you. I'm not interested in changing my belief. I don't care if that is all they are (beliefs). They are mine, and I am protective of them. So back off LB! With all due respect.

OH.....okay. No worries


Was just trying to understand....

Logicboy03:


OH.....okay. No worries


Was just trying to understand....

Hey LB...How are you today?











I see you sKeeter...

Are you going to make me take on Uj or what?

Joshthefirst: sorry, but this thread is for people who put effort in thinking.

People who actually think would realize that ignoring a first starter who must be "God" would have us end up in infinite regression. Figure it out, or move out.

Now we are at an important junction. We both agree an infinite regression would occur except there is a final cause. Most atheists are of the belief that such a final cause is arbitrary because its complexity goes unexplained. So atheists say the final cause can easily be God as well as the Universe or a Multiverse, since such a cause is arbitrary.

texanomaly:

Hey LB...How are you today?

I'm cool today.


Just thinking of how to be a billionaire in this God-forsaken country called Nigeria.

Logicboy03:


I'm cool today.


Just thinking of how to be a billionaire in this God-forsaken country called Nigeria.

My suggestion...Start smaller and work your way up. Set short term attainable goals that will get you a 1st down, and continue until you reach the endzone. I'm not sure if you get American football metaphors.

texanomaly:

My suggestion...Start smaller and work your way up. Set short term attainable goals that will get you a 1st down, and continue until you reach the endzone. I'm not sure if you get American football metaphors.

Dont worry....I have been studying up on my American for our date....

Endzone....the last part of the field for a touchdown in American football

I could be your quarterback, babey................

RoyPCain: @Olaochi; i was just passing by and i got a whiff of your post, so i stop to response. its your name and i hope its not a yoruba because we dont have ch?

and to those who say why can't The True God 'wills' instead of 'create', Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala 'wills' things to existence by saying "Be" {Kun}. It automatically "so it becomes" {Fa ye Kun}. Allah does not do work, implied or manual, but commands. Allah says He brought things out of nothing, all living things out of water [though there are other ingredients; soil in the case of man and of course the soul/spirit created which He allows to be breath into man so that the mere soil and water become flesh, bone, blood, etc and a living man].

Allah says He make jinn and man to exist with free will among creation so that they can worship Him. it is the freedom to obey and worship or refuse to worship by disobedience will be the basis of Judgement, under the Mercy of God.


if you believe there is a Creator, what unique Quality do you think the Creator should have, except what He says about Himself? Will God have qualities that are defective, unGodly and not Unique and Superior in every way? should He worship or all true worship belongs to Him?

so the Name of God must be from your land? I agree. When i prostrate in Salat, i make personal request to The One Who creates and created among the creation in yoruba. Here is an example that i will say sometimes in my future: Olorun o. Jowo omo olaochi to wa ni Nairaland yi, bami so di muslima, ko le fori bale fun Iwo to ta nkon gbo.

I don't even understand all this
All am saying is All Gods are true to the people who believe them and No one should force his own upon other people. Wat are u are doing is claiming Allah to be only true God when there are thousands of Gods in the whole world and this is not just about name but character and way of worship is very different.

I heard nobody worships Olorun directly only through the Osa and you claim you are Yoruba why then do u not worship like a Yoruba instead you doing the Arab things

Wats that

oh and Ola is wealth, Chi is short for God. Am an hybrid of Delta and Yoruba

RoyPCain: Allah says He brought things out of nothing, all living things out of water [though there are other ingredients; soil in the case of man and of course the soul/spirit created which He allows to be breath into man so that the mere soil and water become flesh, bone, blood, etc and a living man].
Allah says He make jinn and man to exist with free will among creation so that they can worship Him. it is the freedom to obey and worship or refuse to worship by disobedience will be the basis of Judgement, under the Mercy of God

Your post is riddled with Allah says this and Allah says that.

Please, note that such responses are not sensible but senseless to those of rational minds.

I'll stop here in order not to derail the thread.

OlaoChi:

Anybody can be called the creator even Satan can be called creator and Jehovah called the rebellious son

Which Almighty God are u talking about?
1. Olorun
2. Chineke
3. Zeus
5. Odin
6. Izanagi
7. Jehovah
8. Allah

There's many almighty God so choose one

sorry, but did you read the post? The attributes of God are percieved by people. Just because you call him different names in different languages does not mean he is different. There's one almighty creator. Check many religious cultures and see for yourself.

OlaoChi:

Allah is not Hausa it's Arabic stop forcing a God on people

Allah is very different from the Hausa God

And why don't u serve Olorun(A Nigerian God) since u know He is the creator why sell out your country for Israel?

You talk of Abraham, wats Olorun's business with Abraham?

please go and read the yoruba translation of the bible and see the names they called God the eternal creator there.

Logicboy03:


Dont worry....I have been studying up on my American for our date....

Endzone....the last part of the field for a touchdown in American football

I could be your quarterback, babey................

You are really adorable sometimes. You know that?




I wasn't aware we had a date on the books though. I know several of us plan to get together. I'm not sure that makes me your "receiver".

Kay 17:

Now we are at an important junction. We both agree an infinite regression would occur except there is a final cause. Most atheists are of the belief that such a final cause is arbitrary because its complexity goes unexplained. So atheists say the final cause can easily be God as well as the Universe or a Multiverse, since such a cause is arbitrary.

no, the final cause is not arbitrary, simple reasoning and pondering would show his attributes in creation. The universe or multiverse cannot be the final cause, as it is not conscious, the energy within it cannot be physically created from nothing, etc. All around us, our surroundings, we see purposelessness, but in our immediate vicinity, we see the blunt intelligence and direction on and of earth and our solar system. Why would you ignore and blindly deny all these things because of the desperation and tenacity with which you value your highly "convenient" atheistic worldview?

You should be better than that.

texanomaly:

You are really adorable sometimes. You know that?




I wasn't aware we had a date on the books though. I know several of us plan to get together. I'm not sure that makes me your "receiver".

haha lol........that's nice


I'm just kidding about the date. I dont even email people off nairaland. The only person that I actually email is Muskeeto and I regretted it.

Logicboy03:


haha lol........that's nice


I'm just kidding about the date. I dont even email people off nairaland. The only person that I actually email is Muskeeto and I regretted it.

stop derailing my thread. Last warning.

@Olaochi;

by OlaoChi(f): 8:24pm

Olorun o. Jowo omo olaochi to wa ni Nairaland yi, bami so di muslima, ko le fori bale fun Iwo to ta nkon gbo.

I don't even understand all this

so if you can't even understand the bold, a language you as a hybrid is, how then do you categorically claim that Allah is not Oluwa, Olorun, Chineke, indeed is His Personal Name as Ibrahim [AS] is His Intimate Friend? What i wrote that i will say in Sajda [Position of prostration in Prayer], while my Salah [Ritualistic Prayer] is valid is an indication that Muslims worship God in their languages, when the option is made available. You see, obedience is willingly obeying command, whether so simple that it is effortless or complicated that you have to struggle to do it with great amount of effort.

All am saying is[b] All Gods are true to the people who believe them and No one should force his own upon other people[/b]. Wat are u are doing is claiming Allah to be only true God when there are thousands of Gods in the whole world and this is not just about name but character and way of worship is very different.

while i agree with you about the bold, in reality not all Gods are Truly Gods because The True God is 1. Allah says in the Quran that if God is more than 1 each would have been trying to overcome the other, trying to weaken Him and they would have made alliances coming together trying to compete with The Irresistible. Allah in the verse destroys the possibility of any competitor or equal. Allah says in another verse a similitude about how easy is the life and objective responsibility of a servant with One Master against the impossible and difficult life of another servant which has Masters of equal Power, each sending him errant of His own, all at the same time. The slave with One Master will carry out his duties in the order the Master states them while the slave with many Master will be punished by the other master[s] whose command[s] was/were carried out after the first command from another Master. In short, it is Mercy on creation that knows God is One because obedience and worship is easier. Those who made up obedience and worship create their own more than 1 God, no God, etc.

I heard nobody worships Olorun directly only through the Osa and you claim you are Yoruba why then do u not worship like a Yoruba instead you doing the Arab things

I worship Olorun The Irresistible Allah. I ma not an idolater so the Orisha is not for me. You should know that idolatry is the work of satan and i am not a follower of the accursed satan.

Wats that

oh and Ola is wealth, Chi is short for God. Am an hybrid of Delta and Yoruba tongue

why the o between ola and chi? the yorubas know what i am talking about if the chi is shi. Pele.

Logicboy03:


haha lol........that's nice


I'm just kidding about the date. I dont even email people off nairaland. The only person that I actually email is Muskeeto and I regretted it.

You two need to kiss and make up. I could do that for you if you like. The kissing part anyway.




*looks around to see if Uj is listening*

Hi Josh. How are you?

Kindly stop derailing my thread tex and lb. Thank you.


Please we would like comments on the topic.

Joshthefirst: stop derailing my thread. Last warning.

I agree. I will stop derailing. But you should have asked Tex to stop derailing first. Hypocrite.


*unfollowing

Joshthefirst: Kindly stop derailing my thread tex and lb. Thank you.


Please we would like comments on the topic.

sorry Josh

texanomaly: Hi Josh. How are you?

I'm fine ma'am.

Please we would like comments on the topic. Thank you.

So some guys won't say I'm hypocritical

I see I was too late. No one is gonna beg you to comment

Joshthefirst: sorry, but did you read the post? The attributes of God are percieved by people. Just because you call him different names in different languages does not mean he is different. There's one almighty creator. Check many religious cultures and see for yourself.please go and read the yoruba translation of the bible and see the names they called God the eternal creator there.

English Bible is pure poo, Yoruba Bible would be worse.

One thing is you shouldn't claim Olorun has same with Jehovah because they are not