davidylan:

Sometimes we all want to think we are not biased. However it is a thing of the mind. In case you forgot, there is also something called "denial"!

with that can i also say your bias.


Anyways nothwithstanding i keep telling you b/c i dont support Israel does not mean i support Hezbollah. And when i say the only reason why i am commenting is because of the innocent people that are dying, you tell me i dont really care about them. You mention other innocent victims like the ones in Israel (under the hands of hezbollah) and the hungry and dying children in Africa. Davidylan you don't know everything about me so you would not know whether i have any concerns for them or not, or even whether i do anything about it.

But i always try to bring it back to what this thread is about (Israel vs. Lebanon).
i dont think i am biased b/c of the following reasons
 i am not Lebanese
 i am not a Lebanese ally
 i am not a member or financer of Hezbollah
 i am not an enemy of Israel
 i am not an enemy of Israel's allies
 i am not a muslim
 i am not an arab
 i do not stand to gain anything from the downfall of Israel
 i do not stand to gain anything from the progress of lebanon or hezbollah

But you can say Israel is not flaunting their dead. no body said they should not or should.
the fact is Lebanon has more casualties whether flaunted or not.

I know Israel has dead innocent people too (i feel sorry for them).

But i still think started this war so thats their fault.

You say Israel has a right to defend itself. Rightfully so. every country has a right to defend themselves. everybody has a right to defend themselves.

I am sure if you ask hezbollah what they are doing they will tell you they are trying to protect their own people.


if yo go back to hezbollah attacking israel for 6 years, i will still ask you why it took israel about 20 years to leave lebanon.


i have told you you have a right to your opinions and views, and so do other people.

It took israel that time cuzz the lebanese govt refused and is still refusing to control its territory and prevent people (PLO, hisbollah, hamas) using its land to attack sovereign countries. even with that situation, they left, hoping that the lebanese will do the right thing and police their land. they didnt.

six years of sporadic attacks, followed by CROSSING THE BORDER TO ATTACK PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST AT THEIR POST. if they just sat back and watched, don't u think hisbollah wdve gained even more confidence and done worse?

until the lebanese see that it is NOT in their interest to have hisbollah, they will continue to suffer UNNECESSARY pain BECAUSE of hisbollah. those are the people who need to wake up and smell the coffee, israel isnt the enemy of lebanon, hisbollah IS.

agreed Nilla that you have your own oppinion but like debosky said i would implore you to look at the BIG PICTURE!

Why did Isreal occupy Lebanon for 20 yrs? Constant rocket attacks by the PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah! That was the only way they could at least minimise the number of rockets fired daily into Isreal.

How did Isreal start the war in your view? Who attacked first, killing 3 soldiers and capturing 2? I think that was hizbollah! That is the big picture you need to see and not let your emotions run away anytime you see dead children!

Of course Hizbollah will claim they are protecting their people but the truth is they dont care for the same people you are expending so much energy on! These men would not mind killing 20 lebanese if it means the death of 1 Isreali soldier! These men are only about the destruction of isreal not peace, dialogue or co existence!

debosky:

hmm i've been observing so far, i'll make a few comments

nilla you aren't biased, but you're not looking at the big picture - why did israel invade lebanon in 1982? PLO attacks - they wanted to destroy israel

I have never claimed to know a lot about the history of Israel and Lebanon. I didn't know why Israel attacked Lebanon. If they did so for right reasons, why did they stay that long. even if they think they had good reasons to, it does not mean the world or israel should expect lebanon to be fine with it.

debosky your point is well taken, but there is a big picture your also not seeing which is. If Israel permanently eliminates Hezbollah, it does not mean there will be lasting peace, because there will be other groups that will spring up (and some of them will probably say their reason for doing that is to avenging the lebanese innocent that died). so this is something that is a continuous circle.

nilla:

Idebosky your point is well taken, but there is a big picture your also not seeing which is. If Israel permanently eliminates Hezbollah, it does not mean there will be lasting peace, because there will be other groups that will spring up (and some of them will probably say their reason for doing that is to avenging the lebanese innocent that died). so this is something that is a continuously circle.

And it is to prevent this endless cycle that the present war is painful but necesary. The Egyptians and jordanians are at peace with Isreal today because they have tasted the bitter pill of defeat at the hands of Isreal. Remember the 6-day war? The Egyptians have never forgotteen till this day. This war serves as a detterent to others that Isreal will not forever fold its hands. This is a reminder that patience does have its limits too. the constant "new terrorists wil spring up" rhetoric has been rehashed only by those who want to frighten others into doing nothing! Now that USA has clipped part of Al-quades wings, we have had less attacks in the last 2 yrs!

maybe it is a continuous cycle, but no country will stand idle and watch others hurt and want to destroy them, and not respond or try to defend themselves. that is the truth, israel made peace with jordan and egypt, if the lebanese and syrians wish to make peace i know it is possible. their staunch refusal is the only reason this cycle continues.

All i can say is Israel should PLEASE do all they can to limit civillian casualties.

debosky:

It took israel that time cuzz the lebanese govt refused and is still refusing to control its territory and prevent people (PLO, hisbollah, hamas) using its land to attack sovereign countries. even with that situation, they left, hoping that the lebanese will do the right thing and police their land. they didnt.

Shebi you guys remember dictatorship rule in nigeria. nobody liked it but there was nothing anyone could do about it. And during that time, the UN etc. would sanction us on different things, but who were the people suffering it (the civilians not the military). So if the lebanon govt. is weak, it doesnt mean the lebanese people should suffer it.

davidylan:



How did Isreal start the war in your view? Who attacked first, killing 3 soldiers and capturing 2? I think that was hizbollah! That is the big picture you need to see and not let your emotions run away anytime you see dead children!

Looks like i dont get the same news you get. all this while i know of only capturing 2 soldiers (didn't know bout 3 dead soldiers). in this recent crisis, hezbollah did not attack the civilians first.

If people want to fight war, they might as well go by the rules of just war.

Infact i propose we should have a place or an arena just for war, just like olympics etc. but i am sure humans would still find a way to cheat  

Now that USA has clipped part of Al-quades wings, we have had less attacks in the last 2 years!

that does not mean i feel safe in the US. they made more enemies by invading Iraq.

nilla:

hezbollah did not attack the civilians first.

who do you think they've been firing rockets at for the past 6 years?? Kiriyat Shemona, and the whole of Galilee had to build bomb shelters FOR CIVILLIANS because of hisbollah rockets

nilla:



that does not mean i feel safe in the US. they made more enemies by invading Iraq.

I'm sure you'd rather be there than Iran, Jordan or Lebanon right now

davidylan:

I'm sure you'd rather be there than Iran, Jordan or Lebanon right now

NO NO NO NO
i'd rather be in Nigeria.

debosky:

who do you think they've been firing rockets at for the past 6 years?? Kiriyat Shemona, and the whole of Galilee had to build bomb shelters FOR CIVILLIANS because of hisbollah rockets

we would go around in circles once again oh. i said recent crisis.


Anyways I will agree with all of you that say Israel has a right to defend itself. But i still wont support them. Like davidylan said i get emotional when i see the dead children. That i can't help its too painful.
But you guys know there wont be long term peace in Israel right. Because this circle is going to continue.

The Root Causes of the Mid-East Conflicts

It's easy for many of us to sit in our living room, and being the arm-chair quarterback. I can deduce that our respective bias is predicated by our religious beliefs, while very few of us can stand above the fray and analyze the situation objectively. I can care less for either side, but that does not preclude one from doing a root cause analysis on this age old time bomb, if not nicked at the bud guarantees a WW3, a nuclear Armageddon. In which case, none of us will be around to know the outcome.

The Shiites are expecting their Mahdi, the Jews are expecting their Messiah while Christians are waiting for the return of Yeshua Ben Joseph ~ Jesus Christ. All of them wants an Armageddon to precipitate the coming. If Mahdi comes, will the other two accept him? what of if Jewish messiah arrives, will the other two accept him? What of Jesus? Will the other two accept him? By the way, Hindus, Buddhists, Native American Indians are all waiting for their respective messiah. In Yoruba ifa, Orunmila is supposed to return. So, how many messiahs are out there? All tend not to be compatible.

How could one agree with the fatwa issuing Imams that would not send their children to the war fronts, or Rabbi saying their God condones the killing of women and children, or the Christian leaders here, that act as the vanguard of war? And they are all using their respective koran, talmud and bible to justify their action. So who is following the ten commandments? None.

Reflecting on the past and present cataclysm events, it seems as if mankind lives in a Zoo called Earth and some advanced people from advanced civilizations are just watching for non-interference reason, as we mire in this cesspool of ignorance, deceit, lies and wanton destruction, which by the way is the basis of these three major religions. History is set of lies agreed upon, since mankind can not handle the truth.

Check this link on the root causes of the Mid-East conflicts:

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2449.htm#001

Another important link here:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

War is not for the timid. We should all start learning how to shoot AK-47 or M-16 because canon fodders are needed by each respective side we support. The psychological training begins here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/wounded/gallery.htm

the Christian leaders here, that act as the vanguard of war?

please can you shed more light.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/wounded/gallery.htm

reason i dont like war.

nilla ~ Some of those Christian leaders, that are vanguard of war, just like their Muslim counterparts, are Pat Robertson, Rev. Dr. Jerry Falwell, Pastor John C. Hagee, and Pastor George Morrison.

Kabiyesi

thanks for the info will check them out later

all this talk of the Mahdi coming or Jesus coming is moot. the jews are not fighting because they want to 'precipitate an armageddon'. they are fighting because they must defend themselves against some people are intent on DESTROYING them. if that 'precipitates the armageddon' as you put it, then so be it.

mr kabiyesi you can go on with your philosophical musings that all history is a lie made up because some people can't handle the truth, that is an opinion you are free to have. My argument or point of view is not based on religion. (I am a Christian) If it was, then i would support Bush in iraq. But the Us has no place whatsoever in iraq.

coming back to topic, the jews have stated time withiout number 'every lebanese woman and child that dies is considered a terrible tradgedy'

hisbollah's view? 'every israeli killed - woman, child, man, soldier, it doesn't matter, as long as they die it is a victory for us'

that is the bottom line, as long as one side is willing to kill people because they don't want them to exist, the other side has no choice but to defend itself

that, nilla is the objective of hezbollah, the annihilation of israel. http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3101

I don't like war anymore than you nilla, but if someone threatens my family and wants to destroy me, i will have no option but to defend myself

Thanks debosky,

my support for Isreal agreed might be in light of religous bias but i support them right now based on their right to self determination. There is a limit to whihc i can take my neighbor ocnstantly pelting my children with stones, one day i'd be forced to go down and beat him up! let no one accuse me of "disporportionate force"!

@ kabiyesi, Debosky has said it all. It is not a matter of the Jews fighting because they are expecting the Messiah. It is a matter of guaranteeing the continued existence of their nation, I do not support the USA in Iraq too for as far as i'm concerned that was the worst move made by Bush neither do i see any reason for our being in Afghanistan. Why must 19 yr olds be used as cannon fodder by Arabs who dont care for the sanctity of life? All in the name of protecting democracy?

Isreal has tried to ignore hizbollah for 6yrs, now it is time to wipe them out for good. Western powers are reluctant to call for an immediate cease fire because they know Isreal is indirectly fighting this war on their behalf, it will be one less terrorist group to worry about and would send a strong signal that Isreal and its western allies are not as easy a foe after all!

I don't like war anymore than you nilla, but if someone threatens my family and wants to destroy me, i will have no option but to defend myself

thats why i am saying its a circle that will continue b/c the relatives of those children that have holes in their bodies from bullets or missiles (whatever) are going to be doing some avenging.

Its a pity cuzz it doesnt have to be that way

the Frech and the English fought wars and killed each other and each others kids but they are all friends now, Till the arab side decides they can live in peace with israel, it will continue, let them decide or at least TRY to live side by side first, then see waht happens

I have contributed to this theread earlier, but have been absent for the last 4 pages. In this post I will like to ask a few questions for people like @davidylan, @shango, @texazzpete and all those with the same sense of direction in argument and expect some decent non-bias answers:

1) Fair enough, Hezbollah is wrong by taking 2 soldiers or invading Israel, but basically at the end of the day they are required disarm. Now is it only, Israel, US, UK, China, Russia and few other nations in the world that are allowed to acquire weapons for national or regional protection?

2) Considering, the US invaded Iraq because of imaginary WMDs and links between Saddam and the WTC bombing, why haven't they invaded or instructed Israel to invade Syria and Iran whom they have confirmed are the sponsors and backers of Hezbollah?

3) If it is the armed wing of Hezbollah that Israel is after, why bombing of Beirut Airport, bridges, GSM towers, roads, infrastructure belonging to Lebanon who have done nothing at all?

4) Why kill over 19 members of the Lebanese Armed Forces who have not been involved at all (and that is by directly hitting the base of the Lebanese Armed Forces) even though another nation has invaded a soveriegn state under the auspices of cleaning out a terrorrist group that is claimed to be financed by 2 other nations, Lebanon not being one?

5) If it were the state of Israel that invaded Lebanon and took 2 Hezbollah soldiers and Hezbollah did what Israel is doing, would the world just sit down and watch as it is doing?

6) What is the actual strength of the United Nations at present when on several issues it was left to make irrelevant decisions because the United States was involved and over powered it? I heard someone earlier on this thread write that it is because the United States is the most supporter and financer of the UN, then why not change the name from the UN of many nations to the USN for it and all its allies?

7) Lat but not least. This Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein that were whatever, who made them?

the Israel Lebanon thing is too complicated. There is just too many factors. the religion factor ofcourse always fuels things. the factor of who originaly owns the land.

who knows the verse in the bible that talks about Israel not having peace?
I am not sure,but i think there is sth like that in the bible.

Till the arab side decides they can live in peace with israel

has Israel decided to live in peace with the arabs?

debosky ~ Read the first two links that I posted. And we can then meet on that Intellectual plane. We can't 've any discussion on it if you failed to read those articles. Is not a matter of glancing through. Check those links out. And we can discuss further.

nilla:

who knows the verse in the bible that talks about Israel not having peace?
I am not sure,but i think there is sth like that in the bible.

I have already said that before. it is said in the Bible that Israel shall never know peace and shall never see the promised land? What they are fighting for, I dont know

@ Medube

nice points from 1 to 6.

I love the comment below especially

Now is it only, Israel, US, UK, China, Russia and few other nations in the world that are allowed to acquire weapons for national or regional protection?

I think it would make a good discussion thread. While i personally would not like any country to have WMD (one simple reason would be because humans are funny beings and not predictable), I believe if some countries have them, any country that has the resources had better have them too.
The countries that don't want others to have them had better set good examples and disarm theirs   . Or else, they can keep quiet and let this be a free world.

medube:

I have already said that before. it is said in the Bible that Israel shall never know peace and shall never see the promised land? What they are fighting for, I don't know

Please do you know the verse?

medube

1. All sovereign countries are allowed to have weapons and defend themselves and have weapons, Hisbollah is not a country, it has o bizness having weapons, leave the defence of Lebanon ot the Lebanese army, the army has weapons

2. Because Israel is not a war-monger, they left lebanon 6 years ago. they are going back in ONLY because hisbollah CROSSED INTO ISRAEL killed and kidnapped citizens of a sovereign nation.


3. If the airport, bridges, tv stations, etc are being used by Hisbollah to get arms or to take away israeli soldiers, they have turned themselves into targets


4. If you allow a madman to throw stones at someone else from your compound and don't do anything to stop him, don't be suprised if when retaliation comes you get hit


5. Israel would do that only if under threat from Hisbollah. Hisbollah is set up for destruction of Israel, Israel is NOT set up for destruction of anybody, just for defence of themselves, Hisbollah is a terrorist organisation that has been asked to disarm, it has no right to have 'soldiers' unless it is a sovereign state

6. Since the UN has failed to do its role and disarm Hisbollah as wanted by the US and all other peace loving nations, then Israel will do it for them, till they come to their senses

nilla:

has Israel decided to live in peace with the arabs?

They have a long time ago, they made peace with Egypt and Jordan, there are ARAB ISRAELIS in israel's parliament, staying in the very cities hisbollah is bombing,

@debosky you have answered nothing but nonsense. I am going to take you ON one by one, though u didnt answer number 7:

debosky:

1. All sovereign countries are allowed to have weapons and defend themselves and have weapons, Hisbollah is not a country, it has o bizness having weapons, leave the defence of Lebanon ot the Lebanese army, the army has weapons

If you say all sovereign states are allowed to have their own weapons, then let me start by asking you are Iran, North Korea, Iraq, Syria, amongst other Sovereign States or terrorist organisations? Afterall these nukes that we are talking about, which is the first and last country to use a nuke during war?

this is one interesting thread.

@ dondele, it sure is.

dondele:

this is one interesting thread.

Yes o, @dondele. At least we get to learn more

dude all these countries have their weapons. If some choose to use theirs to threaten the existence of other nations then it is unacceptable. ALL these countries signed up to the UN charter, saying they are subject to security council decisions, so if the world body says they shdnt have some weapons then they should comply or else pull out of the UN since they do not want to play by its rules

the question about who first used nuclear weapons is moot, the US isn't pointing nukes at anybody or using them as bargaining chips, or calling for the annihilation of any other nation

nukes have absolutely nothing to do with the curent situation, it is basically the unbridled hatred some arabs/persians have for israel