Bush's ratings is over 50% with regards to his defence of the homeland, it is the overall ratings that is at 40%.

So why don't they respect our faith and secularities too? 

I've never said all Moslems are terrorists.  I've only said the religion and the founder of the religion led a bloody campaign during his time.  All who commit attrocities in the name of the religion will have an excuse in Muhammad for their action.

No man who claims to be a Christian can lay any blame of violence on Jesus Christ.  It just wont stick.

Islam has a violent streak which is not helped by the refusal of so-called moderate Muslims to unconditionally disavow the atrocities perpetrated in the name of Islam.

What get on my nerves is the persecution complex of most muslims.There is a cult of victimology in Islam and this is used as excuse to carry out all sorts of atrocities in the name of lashing out against injustice

@Browneyes

The issue is not that all muslims are terrorists but that the overwhelming majority of religiously motivated terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims.

@4_Play,

What get on my nerves is the persecution complex of most muslims.There is a cult of victimology in Islam and this is used as excuse to carry out all sorts of atrocities in the name of lashing out against injustice

Your statement above is so true. I have often wondered if they are the only once who suffer injustice around the world. There is injustice everywhere. If we should all take a look within our nuclear (not to talk of extended) families, I am sure some will feel and see some trace of injustcie as well. So at what point and who regulates which injustice deserves to be attacked by the use of terrorism? At what point and to what extent is terrorism a solution? So does every case of injustice deserve an armed response? And is their a perceived reward for those who engage in terrorism? Will terrorism bring justice out of injustice?

Unfortunately, no one within the religion of Islam is asking hard questions, and when those on the outside are trying to engage them in dialogue as the Pope as just done, they just flare up again in wild rage. If this is a religion of peace, I just can't imagine what a religion of conflict will bring.

TayoD:

If this is a religion of peace, I just can't imagine what a religion of conflict will bring.

Islam is a religion that not only preaches but "practices" peace! The problem is many of us are not aware of how to achieve that peace! If everyone were muslim then there would be "peace"! But then Sunnis are killing shiites as we speak in baghdad, ok maybe if we all became sunnis or shiites! then there would be "peace"!

4 Play:

Islam has a violent streak which is not helped by the refusal of so-called moderate Muslims to unconditionally disavow the atrocities perpetrated in the name of Islam.

There are no muslim "moderates"! If by moderates we mean those who are living in the US and Europe thanks to the magnanimity of those we accuse of war crimes! For where the US and Europe to operate a system of government like the middle east, no muslim of Arab descent will ever be allowed on the shores of the western countries whose flags they are so quick to burn, embassies they are quick to bomb and whose poor citizens are daily harrassed and killed for ambigous US foreign policy!

The so-called "moderates" where in Lebanon burning US flags, soon as the Isreal-Hizballah conflict started, the hypocrites were so eager to wave US and british passports in a bid to escape the fighting!

4 Play:

What get on my nerves is the persecution complex of most muslims.There is a cult of victimology in Islam and this is used as excuse to carry out all sorts of atrocities in the name of lashing out against injustice

They have been crying "injustice" for centuries even going as far as quoting the crusades in the 12th century, what should all black people do after centuries of being slaves to the whole world, resources pillaged, cultures destroyed and history lost? Why are we not suicide bombing everyone since then yrs as we are yet to recover from the after effects?

What of the jews? After the holocaust, it is a miracle Germany is still standing today. If the holocaust had been perpetrated towards muslims only God knows if anyone would still be living in Germany today.

Here is your typical muslim "moderate"!

Hey TayoD where you live

I just finished watching SPOOKS. Very Interesting. Aired the same points i raised about creating propoganda in order to establish a set of goals.

@4play

If you wage war on Islam who do you think is going to come to its defence?

4 Play:

What get on my nerves is the persecution complex of most muslims.There is a cult of victimology in Islam and this is used as excuse to carry out all sorts of atrocities in the name of lashing out against injustice

Yes i feel you there where innocent people are involved but when it comes to dealing with predators then they have the right to fight with all their might. In my opinion Islam sprung up at a time when there was a lot of wars hence the calls to arms whenever they feel threatened.

One of the main reasons Christianity is not so violent as its predecessor, Judaism, was due to the Romans nipping revolutionary ideas in the bud and incorporated the religion into its system. Islam was never tamed, despite the numerous attempts of the Crusaders, and various 'Prophets' were allowed to use the religion and manipulate the believers how they saw fit mainly to defend their lands.

Islam on a whole is a very dedicated religion and i admire the discipline of the people that follow it in its pure form.

Listen to moderate muslims:

“I keep hearing, ‘Why are liberals silent?’ ” said Said al-Ashmawy, an Egyptian judge and author of books on political Islam. “How can we write? Who is going to protect me? Who is going to publish for me in the first place? With the Islamization of the society, the list of taboos has been increasing daily. You should not write about religion. You should not write about politics or women. Then what is left?”

So, here we are: part of the Muslim community is in the thrall of a totalitarian ideology which turns young Muslims into human bombs. Photos of Muslim and non Muslim civilian body parts flying in the middle of markets, mosques, discos and hotels have become routine. Beheadings of Christian and Jewish men and women are no longer surprising. And what do the ever-silent and passive-defensive Muslim countries, Organization of Islamic Conference and the Arab League vociferously condemn? They are condemning the publication of cartoons featuring Muhammad in a Danish paper. The absurdity of this action is only matched by its hypocrisy.

(1) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia or in UAE. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the
ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.

Instead of confronting these problems, too many of you deny them. Muslims call my radio show to tell me that even
speaking of Muslim or Islamic terrorists is wrong. After all, they argue, Timothy McVeigh is never labeled a "Christian terrorist." As if McVeigh committed his terror as a churchgoing Christian and in the name of Christ, and as if there were Christian-based terror groups around the world.

i'm no longer a part of this discussion but i just thought i should drop this in

CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida in iraq warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will[b] go on[/b] (not starts) until Islam takes over the world, and Iran's supreme leader called for more protests over the pontiff's remarks on Islam.

see link

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_re_mi_ea/muslims_pope

let thos ewho feel this isnt about religion continue.

Whenever Israel attacks Palestine why is it that it is only the Moslems that respond though we have non moslem Palestinians we have never had one as a suicide bomber to protest Israeli occupation since the fight is not about religion just for occupied territories??

And the pure form of Islam is the one practised and encouraged by Moh'D in Sura 9:5 says,
Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.
Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam: Their punishment is, execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land

@ Brown eyes
The purest form of Islam as preached by prophet Moh'D goes ahead to say:

[b]Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.” [/b]

And those moderate moslems who do not obey these are what? The bad Muslim not following the dictate of the prophet

Thank God for the internet never knew the Koran was this rich in content!!

Great points guys. They will ignore it however, and we will come back full circle to repeat the same thing.

Can anyone of you read Arabic? Did anyone of you pick up the Quran and read Mohammed's teachings? Many people contributed to the Quran just like many people contributed to the bible so dont get quotes left right and centre to justify the reason you dislike Islam.

As i keep on saying all religions started off peacefully at one stage before mankind put his big toe in it. As you guys keep stressing how much you love facts, i am surprised with all this copy and paste material from other sites that think the same way as you. Go to the source, the Quran, and begin your research from there.

Until then all your posts on 70 virgins in the sky when you die etc is poppycock.

You are all getting caught up with this religion mania. This is what is expected of you by those who make a living out of wars. Obviously you won't support war for oil and personal gain but if it is against Islamic terrorists who are forever planning to bomb the world, then support will be overflowing.

We are supposed to be discussing the politics i.e the generals behind the war and their tactics.

Over 30 minutes for my previous post to come true. Hmmm a little disappointed.

@Mariory

Well can you read Arabic? Judging from your post, i take it as no.

What does knowing and understanding Arabic does as long as the translation is adequate and right

As Salam Alaykum in Arabic means
Peace be unto you in English So why do you have to understand Arabic if someone can translate a language to you properly

Brown-Eyes:

Can anyone of you read Arabic? Did anyone of you pick up the Quran and read Muhammad's teachings? Many people contributed to the Quran just like many people contributed to the bible so don't get quotes left right and centre to justify the reason you dislike Islam.

As i keep on saying all religions started off peacefully at one stage before mankind put his big toe in it. As you guys keep stressing how much you love facts, i am surprised with all this copy and paste material from other sites that think the same way as you. Go to the source, the Quran, and begin your research from there.

Until then all your posts on 70 virgins in the sky when you die etc is poppycock.

You are all getting caught up with this religion mania. This is what is expected of you by those who make a living out of wars. Obviously you won't support war for oil and personal gain but if it is against Islamic terrorists who are forever planning to bomb the world, then support will be overflowing.

We are supposed to be discussing the politics i.e the generals behind the war and their tactics.

C'mon, can't you do better'n this lame line of argument? How come you believe what's in the bible if you can't read aramaic or hebrew? The Quran has been translated into english by muslim scholars of repute, so don't even get started there.
You show your lack of knowledge of all things islam by saying many people contributed to the Book, so some things in it should be disregarded. Muslims the world over revere the book as the word of God, through his chosen prophets. A muslim on this same forum (one mr. Olabowale) said this to me.

Of course anyone'd be daft or evil not to support a war against Islamic terrorists who are 'forever plotting to blow up the world' in your own words. There should be no quarter given to anyone who deliberatly targets women and children all in the name of holy war.

Don't be naive. You cry that people here are biased and unjust. Ok, if we're supposed to be discussing the generals and the politics behind these wars, why have you not equally weighed in against the 'generals and politics' from the middle east?
Speaking of politics, i wonder how you feel when you rile against the US's custom of selling weapons and providing backing to Israel (a facility it extends to several other countries like Taiwan) and then say nothing when the President of Iran calls for violent protests against the Pope, calls for the massacre of 10 million jews.


Perhaps the Iraqi war was fought for Oil, or for vengeance (post 9/11) or for juicy defense contracts. We'll never be sure. What's sure is that the war declared over with far far less than expected Iraqi civillian and millitary casualties. The resulting losses of life can be placed firmly in the hands of the 'Islamo-fascist' terrorist.
Perhaps the US invasion is the indirect cause of the chaos in Iraq. But i dont see GIs kidnapping and torturing Iraqis as a matter of policy. Generals in Iran and in the mountains of Pakistan are behind the recent chaos. So when you cast blame on the US, ask yourself if thet're the cause of the simmering discontent between the shiites and the sunnis in Iraq.

Ask yourself if you're in a position to call other people biased.

OFF TOPIC: A somali cleric has called for muslims the world over to kill the pope. I hear no voices from the OIC, from the mullahs and imams condemning this call, none at all. Silence is complicity in my book. I shall hold all muslims responsible if something happens to my pope.
Still doesn't mean i'll go around shooting muslims everywhere i see them. That, i believe, seperates me from them.

it is simple that we pray that those who did not support the killing of other will not be killed or linked to killings but for those who support the idea will get their fair shares as the Bible made it clear that those who live by guns will die by gun.

well the religionof peace is at it again

tell me do we really really think we can have peace at all, this is sure getting out of hand
am tired

http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/news/article06

interesting

religion is like prison, keeping people locked up in different divisions.

cool talk otokx

Over 2 months after the unnecessary bloodshed in both Lebanon and Palestine the Israeli PM has finally agreed to what those of us that are "politically correct" have been saying from the moment the first shot was fired in Lebanon after Hezbollah killed and kidnapped some Israeli soldiers - do a prisoner exchange

Watching the Israeli PM ask the Palestines to return the kidnapped Israeli soldier in exchange for release of prisoners in Israel is welcome even though very late considering the number of deaths that have been recorded since the kidnapping incident.

The Israelis are also negotiating (though not directly) with Hezbollah for the release of kidnapped soldiers.

The killing of innocent ones in any conflict is wrong regardless of the person, group or country carrying out the killing.

We can not have peace without justice and fair play.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_olmert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the response from terrorists
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061129/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflict_061129104124
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061128/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgaza_061128205758

Like we have been trying to get you self confessed "politically correct" people to understand. Terrorists have no interest in peace and you cannot expect a country to just sit back and do nothing but offer themselves as sacrifice in the name of peace. The same peace that in the eyes of terrorists means that country ceases to exist.

Maybe those of you that are politically incorrect and even morally wrong can tell the Israeli PM not to do a prisoner exchange and wage a full scale war.

Just as Bush is being humbled by the reality on ground, Olmert may be seeking a workable solution as he even stated that Israel would not retaliate even when the Palestinians breached the cease fire.

The bottomline is that justice, fairplay and peace will be close at hand when all the parties involved decide to seek genuine peace.

Afam:

Maybe those of you that are politically incorrect and even morally wrong can tell the Israeli PM not to do a prisoner exchange and wage a full scale war.

Just as Bush is being humbled by the reality on ground, Olmert may be seeking a workable solution as he even stated that Israel would not retaliate even when the Palestinians breached the cease fire.

The bottomline is that justice, fairplay and peace will be close at hand when all the parties involved decide to seek genuine peace.

1. No one ever said a prisoner exchange shouldn't happen. However, I want to preempt the useless noise that will develop should Israel rightfully retaliate to protect itself.

2. Lord knows why you keep bringing Bush and the Iraq war into this. Two totally different situations.

3.Yes that is indeed what will be close at hand once the terrorists are neutralized. Indeed it will.

@afam

we agree peace could be achieved without firing a bullet
but we also know that the arabs don't honour their end of any bargain

few hours after the seize fire agreement some groups started firing missiles back into isreal
now u tell me is that part of the agreement?

until the arabs learn to keep to their words we should not blame isreal for responding

probably if the Arabs had known better they wont had kidnapped the soldier cos end of the day we know who was worse off

@Kaecy5,

Happy new year.

I agree that the Palestinians broke the cease fire just as I condemn the killing of innocent ones even by the Palestinians inspite of the injustices.

My point is that we have wasted enough innocent lives in the course of trying to defend and it is not doing anyone any good.

@Mariory,

Not ready to go in an endless debate over very clear issues.

hopefully, we are not forgetful of the fact that the Government in Palestine is nothing but a lame duck. It cant even control it's own people.

The west refused to recognise it despite being a democracy. How do you expect a govt which cannot control it's own people to have enough resources to stop every palestinian from attacking Israel.

Maybe if the west did not apply double standards after free and fair elections brought in a democratic government for the palestinian people, the govt would be stronger and more able to enforce such a ceasefire. The issue is that Israel is being attcked by undesirable elements within the Palestinian State but IT IS the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT which always attacks Palestinians.

If we say that Israel is being attacked by Palestine, then we can also conclude that Americans occupied Iraq and raped Iraqi men and women.

Easyy:

hopefully, we are not forgetful of the fact that the Government in Palestine is nothing but a lame duck. It can't even control it's own people.

The west refused to recognise it despite being a democracy. How do you expect a govt which cannot control it's own people to have enough resources to stop every palestinian from attacking Israel.

Maybe if the west did not apply double standards after free and fair elections brought in a democratic government for the palestinian people, the govt would be stronger and more able to enforce such a ceasefire. The issue is that Israel is being attcked by undesirable elements within the Palestinian State but IT IS the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT which always attacks Palestinians.

You clearly don't understand. Go back and research it again. Find out why the situation changed when Hamas took over power from Fatah. Most importantly, read up on Hamas for your own good.

Easyy:

If we say that Israel is being attacked by Palestine, then we can also conclude that Americans occupied Iraq and raped Iraqi men and women.

Oh Lord here we go again with a totally irrelevant situation. Sheesh!

are we still here?

Easyy:

Maybe if the west did not apply double standards after free and fair elections brought in a democratic government for the palestinian people, the govt would be stronger and more able to enforce such a ceasefire. The issue is that Israel is being attcked by undesirable elements within the Palestinian State but IT IS the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT which always attacks Palestinians.

If we say that Israel is being attacked by Palestine, then we can also conclude that Americans occupied Iraq and raped Iraqi men and women.

Which double standard did the west apply? Refusing to recognize the legitimacy of a terrorist organisation that also refuses to recognize the right of Isreal as a nation?
How would a Hamas led government enforce a ceasefire with a sworn enemy it does not recognize?

Isreal is indeed being attacked by "undesirable elements"? Undesirable elements in power? Undersirable elements in Iran, Lebanon and Syria? Undersirable elements with enormous funds to purchase rockets and rocket launchers?

So you want Isreali "undesirable elements" to do the retaliation?

How can people say that the elections in Palestine were free and fair when 2 of the main parties are armed groups.This from the same people who deny the legitimacy of the Iraqi elections.

Let us not forget,all that has happened is that certain Govts have refused to deal with the Palestinian Govt especially in terms of trade and aid.Surely each nation on the planet in exercise of its sovereignty can decide who to trade with and who spend their taxpayers money on.The United States reserves the right to refuse to spend their money,I repeat their money,on Palestinians who have nothing but hostility towards them