ihedinobi2:
I agree that they did. And I have pointed out that Jesus Himself addressed multitude circumstances directly too. And one does not have to look too far in Acts to find examples of the apostles doing the same. Does this addressing of circumstances that are adverse to you count as looking to God to resolve difficulties?

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

truthislight: This is what I call deliberate distraction and being a distraction.

The sooner the posters/discussants remember that they are free moral agent the better for them and the thread, and the earlier this thread will move forward and faster and the interest kept alive.

Thanks a lot for this. We actually felt like you noted above. We'll be moving forward.

trustman:

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

I was rendered speechless by the above, I freely admit. I honestly had to take some time to re-examine everything I know from the Scriptures about the authority of the believer. Even now, I find it rather painful that I should have to answer an argument like the above.

Is @truthislight really correct in calling this examination a distraction? Are you responding correctly in choosing to ignore it seeing that you yourself are also examining a theology at your own behest? Shall your objections not be judged by the Scriptures only because they are objections and yours at that? Are you and the others here above the judgment of the Scriptures? Is that why you can say the things in the quoted post above?

I sorrow.

About delegated and "inherent" authority, delegated authority is "inherent" authority conveyed by a medium other than the source itself. In other words, disregarding the command of a messenger of a king is disregarding the command of the king himself.

About what the believer can and cannot do,

1. Paul said that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus far above every power and dominion thus sharing His Authority with Him and having power over everything and everyone over whom He too has power.

2. Jesus Himself said that He had given us power over all the power of the enemy. He Himself said that after He had gone we would do greater things than He had ever done. He Himself said that those who believe would have whatever they say.

3. The Apostles were special in their calling indeed. You will not find me in disagreement here. Yet, there was Stephen and there was Philip neither of whom were apostles.

trustman:

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

Thank you Brother , we have derived authority through obedience to the faith.

frosbel:

Thank you Brother , we have derived authority through obedience to the faith.

Spot on!

Nice to see you on this thread frosbel. I had missed your contribution in the "defunct" one. But here you are now.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]

What is 3 John:2?

3 John:2 is the famous and favorite verse WoF likes to band about when teaching about wealth/prosperity

3 John:2 innocently, is a verse in the bible.
It is part of the body of a letter written by John
addressed and mailed to a friend and brother in Christ called Gaius

It is safe to say, John was kind of a mentor to Gaius in the body of Christ

The following are various translation of the original text:

Beloved, I wish above all things that you may prosper
and be in health, even as your soul prospers
- 3 John:2 King James 2000 Bible

My dear friend, I pray that you may in all respects prosper
and enjoy good health, just as your soul already prospers
- 3 John:2 Weymouth New Testament

If you like a bit of Greek salad dressings with this
then you've come to the right place
because here is a bit of Greek Text analysis for you to feast on as you munch this meat

The Greek word εὐοδοῦσθαι for “prosper” in this verse does not refer specifically to financial prosperity
εὐοδοῦσθαι is to prosper

Now "prosper" there in the Greek simply means something like "to go well with you"
and this Greek for “prosper” (i.e. εὐοδοῦσθαι) means exactly to "have a good career"

So, it is a private prayer or well wish for the person Gaius mentioned in 3 John:2
it is a wish from a mentor to a mentee (i.e. a mentor interested in the spiritual career as it were, well being of his mentee)

We should not become ignorant that the verse says prosper, the prosper there, is not financial.
There is more to prosper, prosper is huge as it envelopes all areas of our lives.

Now touching on wealth/prosperity
Contrary to what is believed in the church, wealth is meant to be for the the advancement of the gospel,
and is not something to flaunt, boast about or to have to live lavish lifestyles.
Wealth is about James 1:27
- for looking after orphans and widows in their distress
and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
for funding the preaching of the gospel, helping the poor etc

So, this is another exhibit where WoF movement and its adherents
knowingly or unknowingly get it wrong.

3 John:2 is not a public or authoritative promise of wealth or riches for all Christians
but is just a simple prayer of a mentor to his mentee
but the WoF movement and its adherents have latched on it to validate a claim to wealth/prosperity

Why is this perverse:
This is a teaching with unreasonable or unacceptable interpretation of scripture
deliberately taught like that to hoodwink unsuspecting, the impressionable easily influenced,
or unguarded fallen-on-hard-times christians of their hard-earned cash

Who mainly & primarily benefits from this:
101% of the times, it is the purveyors
It is the WoF movement and its adherents,
the person or group within the movement who spreads or promotes this teaching that mainly & primarily benefit

What happens when this is taught this way:
Disappointment galore, that is what often happens.
Disappointment resulting from discovering that the teaching is a sham
It is something not as good as one was led to believe in
and it is totally not what it was believed it to be.

Sadness, depression or displeasure then happens or occurs afterwards too
this obviously caused by the non-fulfilment of the promised and expected wealth/prosperity
People's hopes or expectations are dashed

How dangerous or damaging:
The unsuspecting or vulnerable get drawn and sucked in by the salesman pitch of this teaching
Some end up in financial ruins after listening to this teaching
they are worse off than they were before hearing the teaching
It is a fantasy, and if there is an El Dorado at all, the pot of gold and silver there is not for the hearer of the teaching

The hidden agenda:
The reason for teaching this the way it is taught, is to make money with scriptures in a greedy or dishonest fashion
It primarily is to line pockets with money

The ridiculous:
There are too many to mention
but there is one incident which tipped the scale
it caused public outcry or condemnation
and led to frantic meetings of who-is-who in the WoF movement be called with invitations to Tulsa.
It was the tasteless pulpit display involving two major WoF movement adherents
where they were whooping with laughter and shrieks
dancing on, sliding on, jumping up and down on envelopes of people's money
placed on the altar stage or floor and shouting "Money Cometh to Me Now!"

Who are the winners and losers:
The winners are the teachers of this doctrine
and unfortunately the losers are the unsuspecting Christians who listen to them with itchy ears

What REALLY is God's will for us concerning "...above all...":
First before tackling this, it must be said that,
we need to be careful of whom we hold in high esteem
some in the body of Christ have visions etc after their own desires
and somehow to validate their teachings or ministries
announce their visions and visitations as revelations from God.

Now, this is a very good question, Jeremiah 29:11 is ideal to start with:

NIV
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD,
"plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord,
thoughts of peace, and not of affliction,
to give you an end and patience.

This is God's plan for us all, similar to what John prayed for Gauis.
God's plan is for things to go well with us
And was achieved through Jesus Christ our Hope and Glory

Now God, is engaging us and above all expects 1 Peter 4:8 from us:

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins
- 1 Peter 4:8 NIV

If the church loves each other, we'll not defraud each other
would not be obtaining penuary advantage by deception
and doing so using scripture, especially incorrectly interpreted verses

Colossians 3:14 is hankering on love (i.e. charity) again
that it binds everything together in perfect harmony

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
- Colossians 3:14 KJ Bible

Now we are at Matthew 7:12-14,
it actually is meant to be Matthew 7:15-20 and not Matthew 7:12-14

It is by their fruit (i.e. tree and it's fruit(s)) that will know who is teaching false for ulterior motives
and Matthew 7:15-20 enumerates on this for us

¹⁵“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
¹⁶“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
¹⁷“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
¹⁸“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
¹⁹“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
²⁰“So then, you will know them by their fruits

We'll close with the below verse,
and hope we've become wiser and learned a thing or two:

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child,
nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
- 1 John 3:10 NIV

So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.
Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.
- 1 John 3:10 NLT

I REST MY CASE ON F3, FOR NOW.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]

https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents/2#24485507

@BabaGnoni, excellent submission.

Following Jesus' litmus test of knowing a false prophet in Matthew 7, I believe that God has put enough in every Christian to discern who is true and who is false. Its simple: what fruit are they bearing?

Some of the most outrageous practices in Christendom is found in WOF churches. If Christians in these churches have ears to hear, they ought to be asking questions. Take the Nigerian case in point: COZA. Ese Walters disclosure remains an allegation until Biodun Fatoyinbo gives us his "robust" reply. Nonetheless if you are a member of that church, you should be asking questions. If you are like Japhet Omojuwa, a former member of COZA Abuja, you would be writing probing articles. If you are like me, DrummaBoy, you would be perusing the theological liberty that permits the kind of super grace Fatoyinbo allegedly finds security in.

Whatever kind of Christian you are, God by his Spirit has given us enough to discern the fruit of men's action and to ascertain that they are true prophets. Someone here claims that he is of the same family with WOFs. I do not doubt the fact that some are genuine Christians. What I am certain of is that anyone under the spell of WOF is a deceived Christian.

This is my point: the only reason one might not be able to learn that the WOF doctrine is falsehood is if such a person is not a Christian at all. One might not discover in many years of being under the spell, but one day, one will find out the source of these obnoxious fruits.

The blessing of a thread like this is that it quickens the process of discovery. I believe if any true seeker goes through the 20 points to be discussed on this thread, such a person is certain to be liberated. That is the edification I trust will come to our readers.

I replicate this fine post here to crown discussions on F3 up and for readers who might have missed it before.

trustman: [size=16pt]MY ADDITIONAL SUBMISSION ON F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]


The Problem With The Prosperity Gospel

“Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” Luke 12:15

“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.” Hebrews 13:14

Word of Faith promises its followers wealth and prosperity. WoF preachers teach their followers that they can use their faith to acquire material abundance. According to them, financial blessing is a guaranteed result of faith in God.

To them man has creative power with our spoken words because we are “little gods” and God has delegated sovereignty to us. In their ‘theology’ God cannot act on His own; He needs man’s ‘faith’ expressed through words to act. In fact, they believe man is the master of his destiny and can get what he wants by applying the ‘right’ formula. So getting wealth too is hinged on ‘using’ the right system.

Kenneth HagIn said: "Believe it in your heart, say it with your mouth, that's the principal of faith and you can have what you say."

The following are from the website of Kenneth Copeland Ministry (www.kcm.org):

“Throughout the Word, God plainly shows that His will is for His covenant people to have a surplus of prosperity.’

“Physical prosperity is twofold—health and wealth. Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law—sickness, poverty and death (Deuteronomy 28: 15-61). Health and wealth belong to the believer.”

Kenneth Copeland has also said:
- "The man who holds to poverty rejects the establishment of the covenant. The man who
holds to the covenant rejects poverty”.
- “Poverty is an evil spirit”
- "Prosperity is a major requirement in the establishment of God’s will,"
and "God’s will for His people today is abundance"


The following is from Joel & Victoria Osteen’s Blog

Don’t Settle for Beans and Rice
Posted by Joel Osteen on 3/28/2014
One time, I received a letter from a young couple. They had both been raised in low-income families. All they saw modeled growing up was lack and struggle. Their families had accepted this lifestyle, but not this couple. They had been coming to Lakewood. They didn't have a "not enough" mentality; they had an abundance mentality. They knew God had a Promised Land of blessing in store for them. So, they took a step of faith. … … …

According to Joel Osteen in his book YOUR BEST LIFE NOW:
- “God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and
creativity” (p. 5),
- “He wants you to live in abundance. He wants to give you the desires of your
heart…God is turning things around in your favor” (p. 78).

Does Scripture agree with these positions?
Another major issue is this: did the Lord Jesus and the Apostles put a lot of emphasis on financial prosperity?

The Lord Jesus warned in Luke 12: 15 –“Then he said to them, “Watch out and guard yourself from all types of greed, because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
In Matthew 6:19 – 21, He also said: “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”.

Apostle Paul had these to say:
A true Christian leader must not be a lover of money (1 Timothy 3:2-3).
The Christian is to be content with whatever he has (1 Timothy 6: 6-.
The Christian is warned of the danger of the desire to get rich and to flee (1Timothy 6:9-11).

James tells us:
Being poor is a high position while being rich is a low position (James 1:9-10).

What we see is that, in sharp contrast to the WoF's emphasis on gaining money and possessions, the Christian is challenged to regard worldly riches as secondary to things of eternal value. The MAJOR REASON Jesus came was to take care of man’s greatest problem and that problem is not physical but spiritual. Concentrating on the physical issues of life belittles the work Christ came to do. A look at the life of Jesus, the apostles and the early church (a look at the book of Acts is a good starting point) and their stance on wealth and prosperity should show not only how they viewed these but also what the pattern for the Christian and church today should be. The focus of the Christian should be on who and what God is, not on the things we can get from Him. True riches are things money cannot buy; that is what the Lord and the Apostles encourage the Christian to seek for.

Now, did the disciples and apostles receive an abundant life the way the WoF preachers of today proclaim?
Was it that they somehow did not have the ‘revelation knowledge’ for prosperity gospel?
So where and how did these prosperity preachers of WoF get their understanding from? From “fresh revelations”, given to them by who?

Satan’s Strategy
One of the strategies of Satan is to get the believer to have his eyes on wealth and possessions. When he succeeds the believer becomes a casualty in his Christian life. Like someone aptly noted:
“Hastening for wealth is MATERIALISM – the excessive desire for things, whether for a more expensive car, a more ostentatious home, designer clothes, or just more money. … … … Much like an addictive drug, the snare of materialism amounts to a ceaseless roller coaster ride between exhilaration and misery”.

Lusting after material things is in reality shifting of focus from God to things. The WoF movement encourages this. It should be clear to any discerning Christian that that shift of focus is in fact sin.

The promise to make wealthy through a quick route excites the average person and the WoF preachers capitalize on this. The attractive viewpoint of divinely created wealth easy to get by all who will follow the ‘right formula’ is also a major subject matter of many a metaphysical school of thought to which WoF has been linked. The Bible teaches radically different things about what prosperity is, and how believers are to think of and go after material wealth.

There is certainly something wrong with building doctrines on twisted interpretations and applications of scriptural passages. This is what the WoF teachers do in order to support their erroneous position on acquisition of wealth. The Bible is full of passages warning about the deceitfulness of riches and money, yet the WoF preachers drive Christians down that same route.
A major problem with the wealth/prosperity gospel is that is seeks to apply a ‘theology’ that is really no theology at all. Instead it has incorporated metaphysical ideas into Christianity and with ‘Christian language’ lures many away from the true gospel into that which is not the gospel at all. Unlike what the WoF preachers teach, it is God, in the exercise of his sovereign will, who bestows on the believer what he wants. Ultimately we receive from him in GRACE and do not create our own world.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]

Introduction

It is worrying enough that many claims that are unscriptural are coming out of the Faith movement. What is of greater concern however is the fact that they have been all too readily accepted as Christian teaching, which should make any discerning believer wonder just what is happening in Christianity today.

The next increment which we are going to look at their claim that - Christians are little “gods”.


Creflo Dollar said: “And if God produces man and everything produces after its own kind…if horses get together they produce what? If dogs get together they produce what? If cats get together they produce what? But if the Godhead gets together and says, ‘Let us make man’ then what are they producing? They are producing gods….You are gods because you came from God and you are gods, you are not just human…” (Creflo Dollar, “Made After His Kind”, September 15,2002)


Creflo Dollars also wrote: “The Holy Spirit dwells in your born-again spirit, so it is perfect, flawless. It’s just like God!” (From Creflodollarministries website (Articles: ‘No Longer Mere Men’, 23rd April, 2013)


So, according to this man God ‘got together’ like other animals do to produce man?

Incredibly, the WoF theology deifies man to the status of a god and demotes God to the status of a man. In WoF theology man was created as an exact duplicate of God, including size and shape.

By proclaiming ourselves to be "little gods" we try to place ourselves on the same level with God. Without doubt, this is the very height of arrogance and is nothing more than self-worship and self-glorification.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4(Contd): THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]


Are Christians Little gods like Word of Faith Preachers proclaim?

“Contend earnestly for the faith” – Jude 3

You may have read it or watched it preached that ‘Ye Are Gods’


Is the teaching that men were created to be “gods” biblical?

The WoF proponents teach that God created man in “God’s class” and so as “little gods” man is cable of exercising power like God does.

See some of the claims by WoF teachers:
Benny Hinn: “… …You are a little god on earth running around”
Kenneth Copeland: “Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh”
Kenneth Copeland: “You don’t have a God living in you, you are one!”
Kenneth Hagin: “The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth”
Paul Crouch (TBN): “I am a little god! Critics be gone!”
Creflo Dollars: “ I’m going to say something, WE are gods, in this earth, and it’s about time we start operating like gods instead of a bunch of mere powerless humans”

The Scriptural Position
The Bible clearly teaches that God is unique and above and beyond all other beings. All his attributes are infinite – limitless. He is in a class of his own.

So when men say that men are “gods” in the same ‘class’ as the supreme God are they saying it based on clear interpretation of passages that appear to suggest such or on a faulty interpretation?

The key portions of scripture used by WoF followers to justify their claim are Psalm 82:6 (I said, ‘You are gods’), and John 10:34-35 (Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came – and scripture cannot be broken – do you say of him who the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming’, because I said ‘I am the Son of God’?)

Looked at in context Psalm 82 begins with God presiding to execute judgment. He then went on to indict those who, when they too ought to be just in their delivery of justice, have more or less perverted justice. When in verse 7b we read: “… … you will fall like every other ruler” we see clearly the position of those who were being addressed. To the extent then that this Psalm has to do with rulership and administration of justice, it clearly does not stand to support the teaching that it applies to Christians in general.

The statement in verse 7a should also be an eye-opener: “But you will die like mere men". It is a pointer to condemnation of those being addressed. It is like God was employing what may be termed ‘divine sarcasm’ in the use of the word ‘gods’ throughout this passage.

In the John 10 passage Jesus’ argument is that if God can use the term ‘gods’ to refer to mere mortals then who better qualifies to be referred to as (and why should the Jews object to his calling himself) “the Son of God”? It was pointer to himself, to let the Jews know who he really was. It was not a declaration that all men (or believers in particular) are “gods”.

Another passage usually used by those who teach the deification of man is Genesis 1: 26-27 where God created man in his “image”.
Questions to consider include:
1. What is an image?
2. Is an image always an exact representation of the actual thing it represents?

While an image, say a statue, may be a representation of someone, it is obvious that in terms of ‘personality’, ability and capability, that image and the actual person cannot be placed on the same ‘class’.

So just using the term ‘image’ to assume that man is now in ‘God class’ is either a failure to see from other scriptural statements the very sharp distinction between God and man or an attempt to be mischievous. The only person who can be termed to be in the God Class is the Lord Jesus Christ who is described in the book of Hebrews as being “the exact representation of his being” or “express image of his (God’s) person” – Hebrews 1:3.

In 2 Peter 1:4 (another passage used by claimants of ‘You are gods’) we are said to “be partakers of the divine nature”. However that same portion goes on to state that it is for the purpose of the Christian escaping the corruption that is in the world through sinful lust. So what we see here is that the believer shares in God’s character in order to live free of the world’s corrupting influence. That is the purpose of sharing in the ‘nature’ of God: Not for the exhibition of some ‘God class’ power, but an enablement to live away from the power of the fallen world. Again there is no support here nor justification to use this portion of scripture to claim that man has been made ‘god’.

Why Did Apostle Paul Miss This Opportunity To Teach Us About “Little gods”?
In Acts chapter 14:8 – 15 after Paul healed a man the people said, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" If there was anything like the doctrine of ‘Ye are gods’ here was an ideal opportunity for the apostle Paul to teach the doctrine. But what did Paul say, "But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and earth and the sea and all that is in them"

The apostles were outraged at being called "gods" yet this is what WoF teachers preach today. This was a great opportunity for God to use them to teach us that we are gods: instead of doing that they tore their clothes and told them that they were also men just like them.

These people in the Acts passage had it in their ‘theology’ that men could be gods. But Paul didn’t buy that. He didn’t say “Yes, I’m made in God’s ‘image’ so let me use this as an opportunity to explain this ‘doctrine’ to them”

Now how does this line up with the teachings of popular WoF preachers today? I wonder if they were the ones involved what their reactions would have been. Do they ‘know’ more today than Paul and the other Apostles knew?

The teaching that believers in Christ are "little gods," is clearly unscriptural. It is a flawed interpretation of the Scriptures propagated largely by teachers of the Word of Faith movement.

Hi everyone.

I think we can safely assume that the objection to addressing circumstances vocally is not Bible-based. I'm judging by the fact that the Bible clearly states that the extent of the Christian's authority covers exactly what the Lord Jesus's does and that the believer can vocally address circumstances and have them obey him or her.


If anyone is willing, we can check another objection. This time, it is prosperity. The questions are:

1. What kind of prosperity is biblical and what kind is not?

2. Is it biblical to deliberately and actively pursue this kind above?

3. If it is, what is the biblical way to pursue it?




PS. As I said before, if any post has already addressed these questions, links and culls from the post where they were addressed would do just as good as any fresh composition. There is no need to compose new posts if you feel that some post has already answered them.

ihedinobi2:
Hi everyone.

I think we can safely assume that the objection to addressing circumstances vocally is not Bible-based.
I'm judging by the fact that the Bible clearly states that the extent of the Christian's authority covers exactly what the Lord Jesus's does
and that the believer can vocally address circumstances and have them obey him or her.

If anyone is willing, we can check another objection.

This time, it is prosperity. The questions are:

1. What kind of prosperity is biblical and what kind is not?

2. Is it biblical to deliberately and actively pursue this kind above?

3. If it is, what is the biblical way to pursue it?


PS. As I said before, if any post has already addressed these questions, links and culls from the post where they were addressed would do just as good as any fresh composition. There is no need to compose new posts if you feel that some post has already answered them.

Hi ihedinobi2. Your #1 is ambiguous and not explicit enough
It is open to more than one interpretation (i.e. it doesn't have one obvious meaning)
You need to state clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt what "prosperity" is or means to you
Defining "prosperity" (i.e. to the best of your honest & sincere understanding) along the line too might help.
List all your verses you back "prosperity with
or all your verses you believe and understand "prosperity is based on

This is very important too, "prosper" needs to be referenced
and/or be aligned with the context of what is written in the OT or NT
(i.e. the original texts, whether Aramaic or Greek)

After all is said and done with #1, then, we can have a look at #2 & #3,
though already, a little voice in my head is saying Matthew 6:25, Luke 12:22, Philippians 4:6 etc addresses them

PS: Can you explain what you are driving at and/or on about with this:
"I think we can safely assume that the objection to addressing circumstances vocally is not Bible-based.
I'm judging by the fact that the Bible clearly states that the extent of the Christian's authority covers exactly what the Lord Jesus's does
and that the believer can vocally address circumstances and have them obey him or her"

What in relation to, what so far's been on this thread, brought this on?
What so far on this thread, is it in connection with?

BabaGnoni:

Hi ihedinobi2. Your #1 is ambiguous and not explicit enough
It is open to more than one interpretation (i.e. it doesn't have one obvious meaning)
You need to state clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt what "prosperity" is or means to you
Defining "prosperity" (i.e. to the best of your honest & sincere understanding) along the line too might help.
List all your verses you back "prosperity with
or all your verses you believe and understand "prosperity is based on

This is very important too, "prosper" needs to be referenced
and/or be aligned with the context of what is written in the OT or NT
(i.e. the original texts, whether Aramaic or Greek)

After all is said and done with #1, then, we can have a look at #2 & #3,
though already, a little voice in my head is saying Matthew 6:25, Luke 12:22, Philippians 4:6 etc addresses them

PS: Can you explain what you are driving at and/or on about with this:
"I think we can safely assume that the objection to addressing circumstances vocally is not Bible-based.
I'm judging by the fact that the Bible clearly states that the extent of the Christian's authority covers exactly what the Lord Jesus's does
and that the believer can vocally address circumstances and have them obey him or her"

What in relation to, what so far's been on this thread, brought this on?
What so far on this thread, is it in connection with?

BabaGnoni, engage me productively if you will engage me at all or else I will ignore you. By asking what kind of prosperity is biblical I have given every potential respondent the right to define prosperity as they please. It will be my part to ask them to clarify any inconsistencies.

Also, I have not offered any argument that requires any kind of backing up so don't waste your time and energy asking me for Scriptures to back anything up. You must learn to differentiate between examinations and debates. If I were debating any objection here, I would be presenting a counter-argument to it. I have done so earlier in the course of examination and will do it again if the need arises. I have not done so right now, so don't ask me for any verses. When I do so, you have every right to demand for backing authority to my claims.

If you think you have an answer to any question, clearly state it like @trustman did and I will consider it. I don't know if the little voice in your head is giving me answers or if it's telling you to check those places and see if the answer is there.

Finally, I request that you desist from incessantly asking me to explain things I write. Shall I write a comprehensive summary on every statement I make? You should be able to point out what problems you have with any statement I make.

Nevertheless, thank you for responding at all.

In addition, I have stated severally thar the visuals of the posts on this thread make them difficult to read. You do have a right to write how you want but if you expect me to read, please substantially minimize your use of the "underline", "italics", "bold text" and "color". They make your posts too tedious for my eyes.

This is just to say that if you respond to me with posts written up like that, I may be unable to respond appreciably, if at all, to you because I may be unable to read them appreciably, if at all.

ihedinobi2:

BabaGnoni, engage me productively if you will engage me at all or else I will ignore you. By asking what kind of prosperity is biblical I have given every potential respondent the right to define prosperity as they please. It will be my part to ask them to clarify any inconsistencies.

Also, I have not offered any argument that requires any kind of backing up so don't waste your time and energy asking me for Scriptures to back anything up. You must learn to differentiate between examinations and debates. If I were debating any objection here, I would be presenting a counter-argument to it. I have done so earlier in the course of examination and will do it again if the need arises. I have not done so right now, so don't ask me for any verses. When I do so, you have every right to demand for backing authority to my claims.

If you think you have an answer to any question, clearly state it like @trustman did and I will consider it. I don't know if the little voice in your head is giving me answers or if it's telling you to check those places and see if the answer is there.

Finally, I request that you desist from incessantly asking me to explain things I write. Shall I write a comprehensive summary on every statement I make? You should be able to point out what problems you have with any statement I make.

Nevertheless, thank you for responding at all.

ihedinobi2: In addition, I have stated severally thar the visuals of the posts on this thread make them difficult to read. You do have a right to write how you want but if you expect me to read, please substantially minimize your use of the "underline", "italics", "bold text" and "color". They make your posts too tedious for my eyes.

This is just to say that if you respond to me with posts written up like that, I may be unable to respond appreciably, if at all, to you because I may be unable to read them appreciably, if at all.

You actually need to be providing verses concerning all you're talking about though now,
no one is going to be doing a guessing game with your "authority" claim
or without evidences be making assumption(s) and/or inferences on your behalf

but if you're referring to taking authority, stepping or trampling on snakes and scorpions etc (i.e. Luke 10:19 or Mark 16:18),
well, then you're in for a shocker because those verses are not meant for or addressed to 21st Christians
[size=2pt]shdemidemi this meat is too tough for some to chew, your comments on this is needed desperately here please[/size]
All you now need do, is read those verses loudly slow
for good measure, you can catch up with Acts 28:3 to have the penny drop
I forgot to add, beforehand, you might want read up on what Greek aorist tenses are all about
as this will help with better understanding the above read verses

and thinking about this now and properly, I presume, the link below is where all this authority objection stemmed from
(i.e. where trustman was right about "...The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers...'')
https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents/4#24509810

Like you're the only one following and reading the thread
Is this post, published the way it is, good enough for you? (i.e. no "underline", "italics", "bold text" and "color'')
Yeah, I thought as much. I thought it'll be good for you.
Enjoy it whilst it lasts, because next post will be back to business as usual.
If you happen to have difficulties reading I am sorry then.

You're so uncooperative...
All you're good at is, whinge, whinge, whinge and whinge
This is like Déjà vu. Pftt. SMH.
I am done with you, you've successfully worn my patience thin
if it is not about shielding or protecting sacred cows and not naming and shaming
it'll be about "names on a phantom enemies list",
if not then, it'll be "engage me productively if you will engage me at all or else I will ignore you" or whatnot.
As far as I know, you're now talking with brick walls.

Thank you but no thank you.

trustman:

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

eweeeeeeeeee, just tuned in to check what's up here being a bit bored waiting for someone. See calamity escapism that I was welcomed with!! This dummy excuse can be used to not do anything or live a christlike life. Who is a disciple. Talk about biblical prescribed way, what an irony. Show them Genesis-Malachi, you go hear the story of your life and mumbo jumbo about Judaism. Show them Matthew-Revelation, na still tales by moonlight like the above quote. They may respond well to trite verbose weblinks though.

trustman:

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

Image123:

eweeeeeeeeee, just tuned in to check what's up here being a bit bored waiting for someone. See calamity escapism that I was welcomed with!! This dummy excuse can be used to not do anything or live a christlike life. Who is a disciple. Talk about biblical prescribed way, what an irony. Show them Genesis-Malachi, you go hear the story of your life and mumbo jumbo about Judaism. Show them Matthew-Revelation, na still tales by moonlight like the above quote. They may respond well to trite verbose weblinks though.

^^^
Talking of Genesis, some authority Adam had in Eden, that's even before the fall.

Everyone knows the rest of the story
that Adam did; "choose to handle it on your own way"
preferred not to: "address and depend on God seeking his intervention"
and the rest is history.

Good heavens!

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN[/size]

INTRODUCTION

We will find out what WoF teaches concerning this "The Deification of Man" doctrine

Then, we will be putting under the microscope, two famous and favorite verses (i.e. Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34)
which WoF often uses, to prove the accuracy of this teaching (i.e. THE DEIFICATION OF MAN)

We will zero the microscope's lens on to "...gods..."
We will zoom in on it to find out whether or not "...gods..." has anything at all to do with God
(i.e. we will cross check with the original Aramaic and Greek render)

We should be able to find out if the "...gods..." in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34, are interpreted and translated correctly or not.

Are Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34, scriptural but erroneously interpreted?
Is "...gods..." in the verse calling Christians, God with a small "g" (i.e. as in the same league as God but with a small "g")
or is it referring to something else completely different (i.e. sharing the same word god but has nothing actually, to do with the other God, the Noun)

It is hoped that after all the F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN submissions,
we all (i.e. posters and readers) would have learned a thing or two, would have become wiser and be:

- able to see WHY this perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine is taught the way it is by the perpetrators
(i.e. Luke 12:15, 1 Peter 5:2 and 2 Peter 2:15)
- able to see HOW/WHERE/WHEN/WHO first taught this perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine (i.e. Genesis 3:5)
- able to see WHAT is the correct meaning of "...gods..." in Psalm 82:6 or John 10:34
as opposed to WoF perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine and interpretation
(i.e. Exodus 7:1 Exodus 4:16, *Exodus 21:6, *Exodus 22:8-9 and Exodus 22:28)
- able to see the hidden agenda (i.e. the ulterior motives) as it is taught the way it is, behind this perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine (i.e. 1 Timothy 6:10)
- able to do an inspection (i.e. self-examination or self-analysis) of your conscience
to find out if you've ever done the chest thumping "...I am a god..." prideful declaration,
(i.e. maybe as a result of knowingly or unknowingly being influenced by this WoF's "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine)
and later see how, why, where, when did it possibly happen (i.e. Psalm 51:6, Matthew 7:15, 2 Corinthians 11:13 and 2 Peter 2:1)
- able to see, in the true sense, what REALLY God calls us or how He see us (i.e. John 1:12, 2 Corinthians 6:18, Galatians 3:26 and 1 John 3:1)

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN[/size]

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN[/size]

It is worth giving advance warning before discussing this WoF doctrine,
not to expect names to be mentioned
this is because of unfortunate claims alleging the thread is destroying or naming to shame individuals

Now that we've gotten that out of the way,
let's start with finding out what deity is, before asking what is deification

A deity is believed to have powers greater than those of ordinary humans
It is divine and worshiped as a god, goddess or God; whichever is applicable

Deification is raising something or someone to a higher rank or position of a deity,
simply it means to make a god of something or someone

WoF movement DEIFICATION of MAN doctrine teaches that
Christians are gods, that is a god with a small "g", in a "God class" with all the powers or authority of God.

Now let's read one or two WoF preachers explaining this doctrine and its meaning:

First is this popular WoF preacher on TV stating:
" Am I a god? Man was created in the god class, was not created in the animal class, it was the god class.
He has a uniqueness about him that even angels do not have...
Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises,
you become partakers of the divine nature. Alright, are we gods? We are a class of gods."
(Praise the Lord, TBN, 2/5/1986)

Now its the other WoF preacher teaching the "little gods" doctrine to his congregation
basing it on the notion that "everything reproduces after its own kind"

WoF preacher: "If horses get together, they produce what?"
Congregation: "Horses!"
WoF preacher:: "If dogs get together, they produce what?"
Congregation: "Dogs!"
WoF preacher:: "If cats get together, they produce what?"
Congregation: "Cats!"
WoF preacher:: "So if the Godhead says 'Let us make man in our image',
and everything produces after its own kind, then they produce what?"
Congregation: "gods!"
WoF preacher: "gods. Little "g" gods. You're not human. Only human part of you is this flesh you're wearing."

We know that God hasn't got a class because God is classless
God is incomparable. What we going to compare God with? Nothing!
Who is God like? No one!
So those two WoF preachers are talking no sense then,

To whom can you compare God? What image can you find to resemble him?
- Isaiah 40:18NLT

but no, WoF don't agree, because as far as they care, we are "gods" according to Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34

Since it is these verses, that they attribute and hinge this doctrine on, let's give both verses a quick look over:

I say, 'You are gods; you are all children of the Most High.
- Psalms 82.6 NLT

Jesus replied, "It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, 'I say, you are gods!'
- John 10:34 NLT

We'll put them under the microscope, and zoom on to "gods"

"gods" in Psalms 82.6 is elohim in the Hebrew text whilst
"gods" in John 10:34 is theoi in Greek text

We've noticed that elohim is translated to "gods".
This is OK, because apart from using Elohim for God,
elohim (i.e. elohim with small "e'') actually is also used for judges
(i.e. Psalms 82:1-4 shows this, and *Exodus 21:6, *Exodus 22:8-9 and Exodus 22:28 too translates elohim as judges)
or for other people who hold positions of authority and rule
(e.g. for Moses in Exodus 7:1, Exodus 4:16 or others mentioned in the Book of Judges)

It is becoming evident that "...gods..." in the Psalms 82.6
is not calling Christians, God with a small "g" (i.e. as be in the same league as God but with a small "g'')
The verse has nothing to do whatsoever with Christians at all, at all
Christians have no business attaching with the verse
as it is about judges, judges given authority to perform martial and judicial duties

So how come WoF openly and unashamedly teach this doctrine, the way they teach it (i.e. wilfully misinterpret Psalms 82:6)
Why? What for? What's the gain?

It is because of greed, that is why

He told the people, "Be careful to guard yourselves from every kind of greed.
Life is not about having a lot of material possessions."
- Luke 12:15 GOD'S WORD Translation

It also, is for dishonest gain and what they can get out of teaching it

Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you.
Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly
- not for what you will get out of it,
but because you are eager to serve God.
- 1 Peter 5:2 NLT

and lastly, the trail leads up to money, money is, that's what is the gain.
It is WHY this perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine is taught the way it is by the perpetrators, for accumulation of wealth

They have wandered off the right road
and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor,
who loved to earn money by doing wrong.
- 2 Peter 2:15 NLT

It was the serpent who in the garden of Eden with Eve
first taught this lie of "...you will be like God..."
(i.e. an earlier form of this perverse "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine)
Whatever authority Adan & Eve had before the lie was lost after believing it,
So we can imagine what a lie this doctrine too is
and that there is more to lose than gain in believing it

"God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it,
and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil."
- Gen 3:5 NLT

The underlying common theme, as with most WoF doctrines is not absent here.
Money is the hidden agenda, kerching
Twisting a verse to get a buck, is no big deal. It is a cash cow

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
Some people, eager for money,
have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 NIV

The abuse and violation of Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34 is an assault on the body of Christ
It is very sad. This is not ABH (i.e. actual body harm) but rather, it is GBH (i.e. grievous bodily harm)

This doctrine has so much permeated the church, that some of us have innocently
one time or the other chest thumped "...I am a god..." and done in a prideful declaration manner
knowingly or unknowingly influenced by this WoF's "THE DEIFICATION OF MAN" doctrine
and the incorrectly construed meaning of "...gods.." in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34.

Only God can heal, impart wisdom and discernment

Yet, you desire truth and sincerity.
Deep down inside me you teach me wisdom
- Psalm 51:6 GOD'S WORD Translation

"Beware of the false teachers
--men who come to you in sheep's fleeces,
but beneath that disguise they are ravenous wolves
- Matthew 7:15 Weymouth New Testament

People who brag like this are false apostles.
They are dishonest workers, since they disguise themselves as Christ's apostles.
- 2 Corinthians 11:13 GOD'S WORD Translation

And there did come also false prophets among the people,
as also among you there shall be false teachers,
who shall bring in besides destructive sects,
and the Master who bought them denying,
bringing to themselves quick destruction,
2 Peter 2:1 Young's Literal Translation

So what REALLY does God calls us or how does He see us
God calls us and see us His children and does not see us as "...gods..." or "... little gods..."

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God
- John 1:12 NIV

And, "I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."
- 2 Corinthians 6:18 NIV

For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
- Galatians 3:26 NLT

See how very much our Father loves us,
for he calls us his children, and that is what we are!
But the people who belong to this world don't recognize
that we are God's children because they don't know him.
- 1 John 3:1 NLT

I REST MY CASE ON F4, FOR NOW.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN[/size]

This is a quick reply typed on my way to work.....I have been very busy of late: my response to F1 is still halfway typed since two sundays ago but it appears the thread has moved on. This is good.

I must say that I love what I have been reading and seriously, I don't think there is much I can add but upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread, I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame.

@Ihedinobi, consider this question: If you saw your brothers sheep for whom Christ our shepherd gave his life being led killed by wolves in sheepskin. How would you warn them of the danger? Will you not expose the wolf?

These false teachers do not teach in secret, why then should we protect their identities? I believe it is upon us to bring to God's light both the false message and it's teachers so that our brethren are not ensnared by the evil message of death.

@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

MrAnony1: This is a quick reply typed on my way to work.....I have been very busy of late: my response to F1 is still halfway typed since two sundays ago but it appears the thread has moved on. This is good.

I must say that I love what I have been reading and seriously, I don't think there is much I can add but upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread, I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame.

@Ihedinobi, consider this question: If you saw your brothers sheep for whom Christ our shepherd gave his life being led killed by wolves in sheepskin. How would you warn them of the danger? Will you not expose the wolf?

These false teachers do not teach in secret, why then should we protect their identities? I believe it is upon us to bring to God's light both the false message and it's teachers so that our brethren are not ensnared by the evil message of death.

@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

Thank you for your observations and suggestions.
We'll do our best.
I think we live in the days and times when Christians
have, and are still been 'programmed' to think differently
from how the Scripture will have them think. This is in reality grievous like BabaGnoni will say: I think it is EVIL.

MrAnony1:
@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

Thank you sir for your admonition. I take it as a word to myself too.

Indeed it was to avoid such "petty fight" that I thought it good to discontinue my conversation with Ihedinobi.

One of the realities some of our brethren who live outside the shores of this country might have lost touch with (this is not intended for Ihedinobi; I don't know where he lives) is that they do not realize the extent of the damage these teachings are doing to our national life at the moment, especially the thinking of our young people.

That's why the objective of this thread must be pursued to a logical end.

[size=16pt]F4: A THOUGHT ON THE DEIFICATION OF BELIEVERS[/size]

One of the greatest blessings of sound preaching is that it brings light. Gospel preaching is not entertainment, it is not a "feel good" talk, it's not motivational speaking; neither is it a message of condemnation. Gospel preaching is light. You know you've heard the gospel when you leave with understanding. Such understanding that births strength in the inward man. It comes with renewed inner vigour and a richer appreciation of the works of Jesus on the cross - a renewed love for the Savior. Gospel preaching should also produce repentance and a God enabled commitment to new living. At the height of it all, true gospel preaching will leave the listener with a sense of indebtedness. Such that one cannot repay - so we leave with a great feeling of humility and thankfulness.

On the other hand, a message on the deity of a Christian produces fruits that are miles away from these. Where one is supposed to find humility, it is replaced with pride. Where you ought to find gratitude, the individual is full of pompous talk and boasts, imitating the minister whose message is forever annotated with anecdotes and fables - true and false. Were you ought to find repentance, there is a marked indifference to sin. In fact non Christians love such sermons because it helps build fleshly ego. Where there should be a clear picture of the cross, the listener remembers only the ministers stories and testimonies. The end result is disastrous, because then we have Christians running the street in name alone.

Romans 12 depicts the Christian lifestyle. After a rich evaluation of the cross of Christ and its blessing to the church, Paul in this chapter reminds us of practical Christian duties. Many of the things he said cannot be practised by the Christian who thinks he is a god. He commands believers not to mind high things but associate with men of low estate. A Christan who is a god cannot do this. He says that believers should not think of themselves above what they really are: so much for a doctrine that teaches believers are gods. He says Christians must not curse but bless. The very reason why Christians go cursing around is simply based a false belief that they are more than what they really are, they are gods, their words carry power and thus they can curse. It is a big shame. Paul ends that chapter by admonishing Christians to leave vengeance to God. A Christian who thinks he is a god does not need to obey this; he simply does what deities do: determine an awful judgement on those who offends him. I see how many of them behave; how these preachers talk. One of them went a-witch-slapping-crusade the other day. It's so demeaning.

Today it is the world that is reminding Christians how to behave. Since we no longer have role models in church. My father, who is still a Muslim, tells me that when Pentecostalism started in the early 70s with the SU revivals, they used to be critical of orthodox churches devotion to buildings, ecclesiastical clothing's and heriachies, and their all round "deadness". Today the Pentecostals, under the influence of WOF, are doing worse. Chief among these is the deity of the believer.

Someone wishes to know the extent of a Christians authority. Indeed our authority is derived first from who we are in Christ and our knowledge of these (that has nothing to do with deification of saints) and then our obedience. When the believer faces a situation of challenge, which can include satanic ones, God is faithful to his word to give us a mouth, a wisdom, a scripture and the anointing to still Satan in his tracks. This situation is very different from a situation where the Christian, with a warped understanding of his deity, walks the street, hands akimbo, thinking he can defeat all demons in hell. Stories abound of many who have seen their untimely deaths this way. We trust God to save us in a time of need; we have no confidence in ourselves. This is how Christians have lived for centuries and these are the examples we see in scripture. Nothing more.

The doctrine of the deification of the Christian is only one of the doctrines of demons we have today. It is however about the oldest doctrine because it was part of the message the devil preached to Eve that led to the fall of man. Unfortunately this is the gospel WOF will still have us believe.

DrummaBoy: [size=16pt]F4: A THOUGHT ON THE DEIFICATION OF BELIEVERS[/size]

One of the greatest blessings of sound preaching is that it brings light. Gospel preaching is not entertainment, it is not a "feel good" talk, it's not motivational speaking; neither is it a message of condemnation. Gospel preaching is light. You know you've heard the gospel when you leave with understanding. Such understanding that births strength in the inward man. It comes with renewed inner vigour and a richer appreciation of the works of Jesus on the cross - a renewed love for the Savior. Gospel preaching should also produce repentance and a God enabled commitment to new living. At the height of it all, true gospel preaching will leave the listener with a sense of indebtedness. Such that one cannot repay - so we leave with a great feeling of humility and thankfulness.

On the other hand, a message on the deity of a Christian produces fruits that are miles away from these. Where one is supposed to find humility, it is replaced with pride. Where you ought to find gratitude, the individual is full of pompous talk and boasts, imitating the minister whose message is forever annotated with anecdotes and fables - true and false. Were you ought to find repentance, there is a marked indifference to sin. In fact non Christians love such sermons because it helps build fleshly ego. Where there should be a clear picture of the cross, the listener remembers only the ministers stories and testimonies. The end result is disastrous, because then we have Christians running the street in name alone.

Romans 12 depicts the Christian lifestyle. After a rich evaluation of the cross of Christ and its blessing to the church, Paul in this chapter reminds us of practical Christian duties. Many of the things he said cannot be practised by the Christian who thinks he is a god. He commands believers not to mind high things but associate with men of low estate. A Christan who is a god cannot do this. He says that believers should not think of themselves above what they really are: so much for a doctrine that teaches believers are gods. He says Christians must not curse but bless. The very reason why Christians go cursing around is simply based a false belief that they are more than what they really are, they are gods, their words carry power and thus they can curse. It is a big shame. Paul ends that chapter by admonishing Christians to leave vengeance to God. A Christian who thinks he is a god does not need to obey this; he simply does what deities do: determine an awful judgement on those who offends him. I see how many of them behave; how these preachers talk. One of them went a-witch-slapping-crusade the other day. It's so demeaning.

Today it is the world that is reminding Christians how to behave. Since we no longer have role models in church. My father, who is still a Muslim, tells me that when Pentecostalism started in the early 70s with the SU revivals, they used to be critical of orthodox churches devotion to buildings, ecclesiastical clothing's and heriachies, and their all round "deadness". Today the Pentecostals, under the influence of WOF, are doing worse. Chief among these is the deity of the believer.

Someone wishes to know the extent of a Christians authority. Indeed our authority is derived first from who we are in Christ and our knowledge of these (that has nothing to do with deification of saints) and then our obedience. When the believer faces a situation of challenge, which can include satanic ones, God is faithful to his word to give us a mouth, a wisdom, a scripture and the anointing to still Satan in his tracks. This situation is very different from a situation where the Christian, with a warped understanding of his deity, walks the street, hands akimbo, thinking he can defeat all demons in hell. Stories abound of many who have seen their untimely deaths this way. We trust God to save us in a time of need; we have no confidence in ourselves. This is how Christians have lived for centuries and these are the examples we see in scripture. Nothing more.

The doctrine of the deification of the Christian is only one of the doctrines of demons we have today. It is however about the oldest doctrine because it was part of the message the devil preached to Eve that led to the fall of man. Unfortunately this is the gospel WOF will still have us believe.

The bolded does not seem to matter to WoF adherents. You show them Scripture rightly divided they refuse it. You show them how even in the lives of their proponents things don't work out exactly like they claim, they still find reasons to give. I guess when people have itching ears anything goes!

DrummaBoy:

Thank you sir for your admonition. I take it as a word to myself too.

Indeed it was to avoid such "petty fight" that I thought it good to discontinue my conversation with Ihedinobi.

One of the realities some of our brethren who live outside the shores of this country might have lost touch with (this is not intended for Ihedinobi; I don't know where he lives) is that they do not realize the extent of the damage these teachings are doing to our national life at the moment, especially the thinking of our young people.

That's why the objective of this thread must be pursued to a logical end.

To be honest, it has damaged us. The church used to be the last place where corruption would be traced but not, it's like the church is at the epicenter of financial impropiety. I never believed my ear when I heard that some people, in my church at home, were involved in inflating the cost of getting land for a project. I was highly ashamed. I heard the senior pastor in my mom's church, although not part of the WoF movement, say that sometimes they get disappointed in giving an unbeliever work to do because they won't have complaints with them unlike the members of the same household of faith now that they will be begging to get things done correctly. An issue that relates to perpetuating fraud was witnessed recently, something that involves a deacon, and one would wonder why these are happening to us? The church, that should be complementing each other, is now competing against each other. If not building, it is membership, and if not membership, it is income. It's like the church is moving away from what it used to be before and one would always ask WHY?
Our campus fellowships are now turning into something else, as some of these teachings are what believers are now fed with.

trustman:

The bolded does not seem to matter to WoF adherents.
You show them Scripture rightly divided they refuse it.

You show them how even in the lives of their proponents things don't work out exactly like they claim,
they still find reasons to give.

I guess when people have itching ears, anything goes!

RedReact:

To be honest, it has damaged us.

The church used to be the last place where corruption would be traced
but not, it's like the church is at the epicenter of financial impropiety.

I never believed my ear when I heard that some people, in my church at home, were involved in inflating the cost of getting land for a project. I was highly ashamed. I heard the senior pastor in my mom's church, although not part of the WoF movement, say that sometimes they get disappointed in giving an unbeliever work to do because they won't have complaints with them unlike the members of the same household of faith now that they will be begging to get things done correctly. An issue that relates to perpetuating fraud was witnessed recently, something that involves a deacon,
and one would wonder why these are happening to us?

The church, that should be complementing each other, is now competing against each other.
If not building, it is membership, and if not membership, it is income.

It's like the church is moving away from what it used to be before and one would always ask WHY?

Our campus fellowships are now turning into something else,
as some of these teachings are what believers are now fed with.

^^^

Too bad. So sad.

When falsehood persisted for ages and the truth suddenly show up, people who had being wrongly taught will attack the truth and call it falsehood. Many Christian had being wrongly taught and instead of them to flush out the old wine and allow the new to flow into them by emptying themselves, we try to defend what is not sound doctrine. The Master had spoken, listen to the words of the Master:

New American Standard Bible
"A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me."

To understand the words of the Master, you will need to fit everything the Master stands for and is known for into "...you will no longer see ME" and also, again..."you will see me".

For instance, the Master is the Life. At a time, in the church, you will not see Life except but dead messages from the pulpit and that is what you see in most churches today. But again, ....you will see me....The Master is working through a remnant to restore Life to the church. The Master is the Truth and The Way, at at time you will NOT see truth in the church but lies and falsehood and when truth is missing, na make people dey miss road remain because he's also The Way. But we have hope that again, we will see Truth and Christ's way coming back into the body of Christ. Every doctrine is going to be re-checked and double checked.

MrAnony1: This is a quick reply typed on my way to work.....I have been very busy of late: my response to F1 is still halfway typed since two sundays ago but it appears the thread has moved on. This is good.

I must say that I love what I have been reading and seriously, I don't think there is much I can add but upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread, I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame.

@Ihedinobi, consider this question: If you saw your brothers sheep for whom Christ our shepherd gave his life being led killed by wolves in sheepskin. How would you warn them of the danger? Will you not expose the wolf?

These false teachers do not teach in secret, why then should we protect their identities? I believe it is upon us to bring to God's light both the false message and it's teachers so that our brethren are not ensnared by the evil message of death.

@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

Twin bro, good to see you. I'd actually already unfollowed this thread so I only saw your comment in my "following" tab.

You may be asking the wrong question. You see, if Jesus is to be believed and the rest of the Scriptures to be accepted as true, then the question here would be: 'what should we do when we find a plague attacking our Master's crops?'

The current approach makes the human preachers the enemy (I'm still deliberately refusing to examine their works to pass judgment because of the audience here). Paul said in no uncertain terms that our warfare is never against men but against spiritual authorities. And what the Lord told us to judge is "every spirit" and "every doctrine". In no place were we told to judge men in the manner that I see here. I do see a judgment of a man in 1 Corinthians 5 and in verse 11, extortioners are to be refused fellowship too and I can see how that would be relevant to the brothers on this thread. But, the question is how to ascertain that one is an extortioner, right? By the doctrine, no?

This is why all the emotion being hurled about does not impress me. I want to see that the doctrine has been examined and found wanting spiritually. This is why I came here. Don't forget that I know this side quite well. I have had my own issues with structured religion in the past that you are well aware of. If one wants to judge righteously, they cannot make the person the issue. If they do, their judgment will be false. As I have shown already, Jesus was not tame in his denouncement of the Pharisees, yet He did not decline their hospitality nor did He reject their visits nor did He fail to plead for them before God. If He had issues with themselves, He would not have done as He did.

Paul in his own time had real trouble with false apostles. We have clear evidence that he did not make it a personal warfare. You remember that he even said that some people preached the gospel out of envy for their own gain but what did he do about it? What you see on display on this thread is petty squabbling that is not meant at all to build up the House of God for, you see, how do you know that one is a false teacher and not a true teacher making honest mistakes? This was why Jesus said that the tares are not to be rooted up before the harvest because you will mistake some wheat for tares and some tares for wheat. If you focused instead on the doctrine itself you would deliver even the true teachers who are walking in error. This method only destroys those who belong in the Kingdom but have been captured by some lie of the enemy.

To close, I will quote Paul, I think: "judge nothing before the time." Let us study the Bible. Let us learn to discover falsehood and thus show those caught in it the light. Let us expose wickedness and in doing so give the wicked a chance to escape. As for protecting the Church, by exposing error itself, you preserve the Church far more than you would by causing this kind of strife.


CAVEAT: I do not necessarily consider any or all of the men named here to be in any kind of error nor do I necessarily consider all or any of the teachings objected to here to be erroneous. I have offered the principals of this thread an opportunity to examine their objections and they have rejected it therefore I neither endorse them nor their work by anything I have said above.

MrAnony1: This is a quick reply typed on my way to work.....I have been very busy of late: my response to F1 is still halfway typed since two sundays ago but it appears the thread has moved on. This is good.

I must say that I love what I have been reading and seriously, I don't think there is much I can add but upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread, I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame.

@Ihedinobi, consider this question: If you saw your brothers sheep for whom Christ our shepherd gave his life being led killed by wolves in sheepskin. How would you warn them of the danger? Will you not expose the wolf?

These false teachers do not teach in secret, why then should we protect their identities? I believe it is upon us to bring to God's light both the false message and it's teachers so that our brethren are not ensnared by the evil message of death.

@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

It's apparently civil only because it is largely ignored by opposing views. i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice. I'm adding this passage to the mix.
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.