Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 3:26pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size] From the first submission, we learned that the father of WoF movement received a revelation of faith and came across Mark 11:22–24 which he then used as the backbone verses of his Word of Faith ministry The secular world on the other hand are content to use just Mark 11:24 Like we previously established the scripture or verses used by WoF in regards to their "Faith in faith or Faith as a force" doctrine we now also need to establish the verses WoF uses to credit "Guaranteed health" doctrine with. We need to know their source. If from the bible, then what are the verse(s) used, what verses do they hinge or attribute their "Guaranteed health" doctrine to. PS: Hiya FOLYKAZE  ah, kila ri, we are looking looking1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by FOLYKAZE(m): 3:36pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: From the first submission, we learned that the father of WoF movement received a revelation of faith Sorry o I just realise say I miss road. Enjoy the discussion guys. Bye 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 7:17pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
tribeofdavid: pls keep this thread going, it has been revealing so far! the heretic TBN station is all about this movement. bt i wonder, why are some other KENNETH HAGIN book so spiritual and having sound doctrine? I would encourage that you pay attention to the thread topics discussed. The thread is not out to pull down any individual. That was the downside of the last one. This one seeks to compare WOF with scriptures, like the Bereans compared Paul teachings with scriptures. At the end of discussing the 20 points, I hope you will come to understand what is SOUND or what true SPIRITUALITY is all about. John warns that many spirits have gone into the world. Its our duty to find out which ones is of Jesus. Everyone of those spirits will give a seeming spirituality. We are not to believe every spirit or spirituality, we are to test evert spirit. Not every oratory speaking is sound teaching; we are to weigh it all with scriptures. The thread is not going to be a sprint; its meant to be a marathon. And we have all the time to do justice to the topic, that will become reference point for discusses on thus forum tomorrow. Again, I encourage you to sit back, relax and savour all the post on the thread; you are in to learn some gospel truths. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 9:27pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
I am yet to complete my submission on F2. I trust God to do so tomorrow. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by MrAnony1(m): 10:21pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
Oh my Lord. Threads like this are what makes me love Nairaland sometimes. Still reading the comments. Big Ups to BabaGnoni, Trustman, and Drummaboy for diligently going through this topic. I am still reading, haven't caught up yet but just wanted to say: May God thoroughly bless you guys. 5 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:31pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
Mr_Anony: Oh my Lord. Threads like this are what makes me love Nairaland sometimes. Still reading the comments. Big Ups to BabaGnoni, Trustman, and Drummaboy for diligently going through this topic. I am still reading, haven't caught up yet but just wanted to say: May God thoroughly bless you guys. I look forward to your contributions to the thread. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by MrAnony1(m): 10:43pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
DrummaBoy:Lol, typing one as we speak. (By the way, it may interest you to know that I have replied Deep Sight on Philoversity. Please accept my apologies for the delay) |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:53pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
Mr_Anony: I will check it out. I also thought you continued the debate here on nairaland or possibly the hacking affected it. I owe it to Deep Sight for the wisdom in numbering points on threads with letters. This is the second thread I am using it. That trinity thread of yours is a blessing indeed. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by MrAnony1(m): 11:04pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
DrummaBoy:The data for thread was lost so I posted my reply on philoversity pending when/if Seun recovers the missing data. Deep Sight deserves a lot of kudos for starting that thread and numbering it the way he did. It still remains one of the most civil threads on this forum. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by truthislight: 8:16am On Jul 01, 2014 |
Mr_Anony: Very interesting. Thanks Drummaboy for bringing up Napoleon Hill. It shows us how the WOF movement is more fluffy new age motivational speech than it is Christian. It is sad that many of our brethren have been deceived in this way.  |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 9:36am On Jul 01, 2014 |
Mr_Anony: tribeofdavid: truthislight: ^^^ This is another snippet of the father of WoF movement, Hagin's "History of Ministry", it shows how WoF movement's idea of God's gift for a fee came about and where the now widespread practice originated from - snippet of Hagin's "History of Ministry" - Year May 1966—Tape Ministry Begins For the first time, Rev. Hagin made sermon recordings available for purchase. Of course, they were available in both 5- and 7-inch reel-to-reel formats! http://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9%3A..&showall=1 - /snippet of Hagin's "History of Ministry" - |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 10:02am On Jul 01, 2014 |
tribeofdavid: pls keep this thread going, it has been revealing so far! the heretic TBN station is all about this movement. bt i wonder, why are some other KENNETH HAGIN book so spiritual and having sound doctrine?In their association with sound Christian groups/churches (and even literature) it is quite possible for WoF preachers to have taken up some authentic teachings. However, the distorted Biblical truths which are alluring and appeal to many unsuspecting Christians, and to which many Christians focus more on, do more harm to believers' spiritual life than whatever other sound teachings they offer. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 12:07pm On Jul 01, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size] After man has secured his food, clothing and shelter, the very next port of call for him is to ensure good health for himself and his loved ones. The Word of Faith doctrine, which has already been shown to be a gospel that seeks the physical well being of man, panders to these basic human desire to teach a lie that the cross of Jesus has guaranteed good health for all those who believe. Of course, this good health will not just fall on anyone's lap; rather, we must get into the know of how to achieve this. The doctrine is more appropriately defined as the doctrine of Divine Health. Like most themes in their teachings, WOF teachers make us to understand that God in Jesus was never sick and we can also exercise our faith to ensure that we also have this God-type of health or divine health. The proof of this, for many WOF preachers, is a regular boast they make of going without drugs for long period of time. When you hear a minister say "the last time I used drugs was 20 years ago", that person is most likely a WOF minister. What they do not tell us is that many leading WOF preachers have died of various diseases, many of them are secretly on life long medication, and many of them resort to medical sciences to solve medical problems that their faith is insufficient to take care of for themselves and their families. The effect of their messages on the flock, however, is terrible because many people hear these teachings, refuse medication and simply die preventable deaths. Others will only take advantage of medical science when their case is way too late, and end up loosing their lives. And some others end up handicaps for life. All of these happening to the flock of a pastor who ensures that he and his family has access to the best medical care around the world. The question that need be answered is this: does the cross of Jesus include divine health in the things Christ has secured for the saints? The simple answer to this is NO. The Christian church needs to be reminded the reason why Jesus Christ died. Jesus Christ died to redeem man from sin. Period. The consequences of which is two fold: 1. That man may live in victory over sin; that is, he may walk in holiness before a holy God on the face of the earth. 2. That man may be delivered from the eternal consequences of sin; that is he may be saved from eternal damnation. The result is again two fold in this life: the born-again man of God has access to the blessing of the righteousness of God by which he has confidence to draw to the throne of grace. This is necessary to take care of the imperfection every human being is beleaguered with as a result of being a child of Adam. So while he is born-again, he is not perfect but Christ gives him his righteousness by which God sees him as perfect and thus he can draw near to God, with a conscience devoid of offence. The other blessing is that when the end comes, and such a man closes his eyes in death or the trumpet sounds, God will take such a person home to be with him not because he was good in himself but because of his Son Jesus Christ. Scriptures call the people of God saints (2 Corinthias1:1). They are not saints because they are good in themselves but saints because God through Christ is good. And since we are in union with him, we enjoy all the benefits that God accrues to Christ through him. God's grouse with human beings is not that they are poor or sick, God's grouse with humanity has been because men are unholy or sinners. And since we could not help ourselves, God sent Jesus to us to solve the problem of sin. And when Christ died and rose again, our Lord solved the problem of sin once and for all. So that the redeemed man can walk in holiness before a holy God, though held down by his own weaknesses, but clothed in the righteousness of Christ; and the redeemed man can have confidence that because Christ died, heaven, a holy place, can be his home after death. That is all that the cross of Jesus came to secure for us and a few scriptures with basic explanation with suffice for this: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins - Matthew 1:21 This is the reason Jesus came. Not to make us rich; not to give us guaranteed health; but to save us from our sins. 46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.- Luke 24 Please let us note verse 47, the message that is given to the church to preach is not prosperity or guaranteed health but that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name. This preaching is a direct consequence of the cross of Jesus. He died that the sin problem of humanity be solved. 23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus - Romans 3 The redemption the cross brought was to solve the sin trouble of all men. 8 but God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us . But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord - Romans 5 The text above shows beyond doubt the the grace of God came to solve the question of sin and sin alone. 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 and the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting - 1 Timothy 1 Paul tells us here that Christ came to save sinners and that the same mercy which he has received, He is ready to show to any other person who believes. The whole of the New Testament is a gospel meassage preached to sinners to come to the saving knowledge of Christ. It is not a message to be rich, neither is it a message to be healthy. It is sin, sin and sin, the cross came to solve. The scripture that WOF adherents stand on to prove that the cross has given us guaranteed health, Isaiah 53, was also basically speaking of the question of sin. Let抯 see the text: [b] 4燬surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11he shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.牋 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. [/b] V5, which says by his stripes we are healed, is the central text for WOF guaranteed health doctrine. But the healing in that text was not talking about healing of diseases. V. 5 had spoken of our transgressions and our iniquity and in the light of a plethora of other New Testament text on what the cross of Jesus actually came to do, we must of a necessity see that the healing here refers to our sins. The remaining verse of the above text buttresses this point. V.6 speaks of God laying the iniquity of us all on Christ. V. 7 compares the cross to the Old Testament practice of sacrificing animals. Any Jew reading this text would certainly realize that it was for sin those animals were sacrificed and thus Christ was sacrificed for the sin of the whole world. It would be preposterous to say that those old testament lambs were sacrificed for people抯 healing from illnesses. V.8 speaks of Christ抯 future suffering for the transgression of people. V. 10 speaks of Christ offered for sin. V.11 speaks of Christ bearing our iniquity. V. 12 speaks of Christ bearing the sins of many and interceding for trangressors. The whole text obviously is speaking of the cross of Jesus and it how it offers solution to the trouble of humanity's sins. Various synonyms for sin are used in the text that includes iniquity and transgression. There is nowhere in the text where healing to diseases is mentioned. 1 Peter 2: 24 helps us comprehend the Isaiah text according to New Testament doctrine better: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.牋 25 for ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Again when Peter mentions the matter of healing from Christ抯 stripes, he definitely was speaking about the process of being dead to sins and the need to live unto righteousness. There is nothing like healing of diseases here either. There is one final scripture where Isaiah 53 is again replayed: 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side - Matthew 8 Matthew interprets Isaiah 53 to mean healing to sicknesses. But we cannot overlook the context in which he used it. Jesus is here carrying out his messianic ministry to the nation of Israel. For this to happen, he healed the people. But does this text really mean guaranteed health for all men? The answer is obvious in verse 18: When people began to hear of this healing ministry, they came thronging him. Rather than sit around and guarantee healing to all the sick, Jesus leaves them and departs somewhere else. The same Jesus would visit a pool and heal only one person among many sick laying there in John 5. So much for something that is guaranteed. Thus we must understand that this healing of Matthew 8, is peculiar to the ministry of Jesus alone. So many things happened in our Lord抯 lifetime that was prophesied in the Old Testament, with the aim of fulfilling scriptures to confirm the Messianic ministry of Jesus. Those things did not happen in any other person's life. This will include the virgin birth; the fleeing to Egypt; his ministry starting in Galilee; the above incidence of healing; Jesus' crucifixion and so many others. Therefore this scripture was not talking about guaranteed health. And the proper interpretation of Isaiah 53 would be 1 Peter 2:24 and not Matthew 8:17. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 12:13pm On Jul 01, 2014 |
Having said that, scripture recognizes the fact that godliness is profitable for this life and for the life to come. What this means is simple: the godly man, who obeys the voice of the Spirit and enjoy the power of God in him that gives life to his mortal body, is more likely to live victoriously above illness than the ungodly. Example: all things being equal, a godly man who does not smoke nor inhale passive smoke is not likely to have lung cancer, like the ungodly man who indulges these habits. The same goes for drinking alcohol, inhabiting bitterness and living in un-forgiveness, etc. The diseases that might occur from these actions are not likely to be found in saints. Notwithstanding, the human body is mortal and thus subject to sickness. This mortality is due not necessarily to the sin of the individual but to the fact that we all descend from Adam, our first father who sinned and whom God declared will die as a result. From that point on, anyone with a human body, carries mortality on him. This mortality manifest itself in many ways and one of them is sickness. When Jesus Christ came, our Lord reversed the curse on Adam, but not in a physical sense but in the spiritual alone. Therefore, anyone who believes in Jesus would never die. He would not die not in the sense of physical death but in the sense of a spiritual death. The proof of this is in the fact that every godly person since after Jesus resurrection has paid the price of death. If Jesus death and resurrection came to deliver us from physical death and sickness, then since the cross, it would be expected that Christians would not die. But the fact that Christians do die, shows to us that Christ did not guarantee eternal life to us in a physical sense but a spiritual one; and by extension Christ has not guaranteed a life without sickness, since sickness is a fruit of death. Therefore just as every Christian must die, every Christian is susceptible to sickness. However, our hope and joy is the fact that nothing is impossible with God. Therefore, if a Christian is sick, according to James 5, he can call on the name of the Lord and our God can heal him. That is how far divine health is taught in scriptures. Scripture does not teach guaranteed health; if it does, then we should also have guaranteed physical and eternal life. The joy of the cross for the believer is that Christ抯 cross has solved the trouble of sin. If sin took men to hell before, the one who has put his trust in Christ will be saved from hell. If sin made men to live unholy lives, the one who has put his trust in Christ can also trust God to live holy. This is the message of the cross: solution to sin. This is the message of the church: Christ and him crucified. That is why the gospel is a message to sinners: rich or poor sinners; healthy or sick sinners. This is the message to the redeemed church of Christ. We are to be taught Sunday after Sunday, the victory of the cross over sin. How believers must look forward to a sure hope in heaven and not rejoice in earthly things. How believers must trust God and cooperate with his Holy Spirit to find victory over sin. The cross of Jesus does not guarantee health for anyone. It guarantees our eternal life and victory over sin in this life. END. 5 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 6:48pm On Jul 01, 2014 |
 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 8:50pm On Jul 01, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH OR THE HEALTH GOSPEL (2ND INSTALMENT)[/size] STILL ON TWISTING OF BIBLE VERSES[b] [b]We have seen in the last submissions on F2 how Bible verses are misinterpreted and subsequently misapplied by WoF preachers and devotees. Another one of such is what we will examine below. One of the Bible verses you'll find most WoF Christians use to try to prove that God's will is that believers be always in good health is 3 John 2: "Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul". The verse is taken to straight away mean: "God wants your soul to prosper, and when it does, it's going to affect even your health life positively". The Position of the Bible: When considered in proper context, it can be seen without difficulty that 3 John 2 contains the personal wish or prayer of the Apostle John towards the beloved Gaius. "When considered in proper context, it can be seen without difficulty that 3 John 2 contains the personal wish or prayer of the Apostle John towards the beloved Gaius. "[b]Beloved, I wish ... ..." or "Beloved, I pray ... ..." [/b]should certainly not be seen or interpreted as a PROMISE from God. Rather it is a wish or prayer for Gaius to be in health. should certainly not be seen or interpreted as a PROMISE from God. Rather it is a wish or prayer for Gaius to be in health. WoF preachers are reading more into this text than was intended by the author. They end up coming up with the exact opposite of what a sound Biblical interpretation of the verse should be. The correct interpretation of John's desire that Gaius's physical well-being be as abundant as his spiritual prosperity, for some strange reason, is not seen by WoF preachers who would rather see it as a blank cheque for guarantee of divine health. The Christian is expected to remain steadfast in God whether in sickness or in good health. He should be like Apostle Paul who said in Philippians 4:11 "I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content". Note the words "in whatever situation": it means life situations will vary; it is not just going to be in a particular way. No matter how it presents itself the Christian is to remain focussed on God. Frantic Search for Solutions It would appear that the frantic search for solutions to problems (including health problems) is a major reason why many churches in Nigeria burst at the seams today. WoF preachers and devotees have promised people that they can speak a "word of healing" on them and end their sickness or restore them to health. Millions of desperate people flock to these WoF men hoping for the divine intervention that would end their misery. Countless others pursue daily personal routine of confession "capsules" that are to be engaged in when a physical symptom or attack hits them, hoping their healing will come, refusing to admit or "speak negative language of defeat" by even acknowledging their condition. They put up a positive face, refusing to admit physical difficulties or a condition that is evidently present. In all these, what we again see is man's resort to using 'systems' or 'formulas' to find solutions to issues outside of God's prescribed way. So there is faith that is placed in the magical ability of "words" to change physical reality, the refusal to admit defeat or say anything that is 'negative', and the meticulous and intentional confession of Bible verses in order to transform natural situations. (More on the lies of Guaranteed Health coming) 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 10:13pm On Jul 01, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size] God never promised or guaranteed a problem free life on earth but rather said to them to subdue it, overcome it or bring it under control (i.e. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it - Genesis 1:28) In like manner, God never dangled the prospect of guaranteed health to/for anyone on earth The only time God guarantees health is in heaven, where there are no or will not be disease, sickness etc (i.e. Revelation 21:4) And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and from now on there shall not be death, neither grieving, nor clamor, neither shall there be disease again, for His sake. - Revelation 21:4 Aramaic Bible in Plain English WoF likes to band about Isaiah 53:5, which is about atonement of sin at the cross (i.e. the hanging and death of Jesus on the cross, is how we got redeemed from the law of sin and death) But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, it is a place of defeat and failure and by his wounds we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5 NIV This is actually laughable, especially when one considers how WoF proponents perceive the cross (i.e. asserting that the cross is a place of defeat and failure etc) and now, watch them here, clinging on the cross with Isaiah 53:5 for guaranteed health. What insincerity. Pfttt. SMH. When Isaiah 53:5 is read in context, it is glaring that, what we are healed of at the cross, is sin Jesus was pierced for our sins, crushed for our sins and by His wounds we are healed of sin so in effect, the healing that took place at the cross is not healing over sickness or disease that WoF would like the church to believe Yes, we have been healed of sin but we are still living in a fallen world and so would have to contend with occurrence of sickness, diseases, evil and even death, until when Jesus returns. Another scripture, used or thrown about by WoF to support this sham guaranteed healing theology is 3 John 2 Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well - 3 John 2 NIV Beloved, I wish above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers - 3 John 2 King James 2000 Bible When 3 John 2 is read objectively, just like we did with Isaiah 53:5 earlier above, it is easily noticed that, 3 John 2 is not a guaranteed health promise nor is it anything remotely like guaranteed health 3 John 2 is just a wishful thought, it is just as it were, nothing more than a prayer. Now, audience, do not read this or take it wrongly, no one is implying that God does not heal No one is implying that God does not grant healing. No one in their right mind will for any moment imply the above last two sentences or doubt God heals, whether in the past, now or future. Never, not especially when one of the names of God is Jehovah Rapha - The LORD our Healer (i.e. Exodus 15:26) As He says, in Exodus 15:26, God is the healer of all diseases, sickness etc He said, "If you will listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what he considers right, if you pay attention to his commands and obey all his laws, I will never make you suffer any of the diseases I made the Egyptians suffer, because I am the LORD, who heals you." - Exodus 15:26 GOD'S WORD® Translation Let's cut to the chase, as we are not going to dwell too much, so as not to overwhelm ourselves Most people are looked for healing(s) in the wrong place or from the wrong people Most healing(s) people are expecting, will never be obtained from the pulpit, crusades or healing schools and the WoF movement (e.g. Benny Hill etc) know this This is why WoF movement ushers beforehand play safe they first screen people looking and hoping for healing before allowing them to approach the WoF faith healers. Anyone that looks iffy or challenging for the healer, gets relegated and not given the time of day anymore or any further Hagin, the father of WoF movement, started the whole WoF movement with "health" teaching and later incorporated "name it...claim it" which were backed up with outlandish claims or statements about visiting hell etc and also supported with books such as "How To Write Your Own Ticket with God" Now, this was way before the "too many (e.g. Kenneth Copeland, Leroy Thompson, faith healer Benny Hinn etc) came on scene to add financial prosperity teachings, healing school scams etc to the fold People are waiting on God for healing when God is waiting on the people God is waiting on people, to birth out all the technological or medical breakthrough(s) medical discoveries, medical advances giftings He's desposited in them The gifts He deposited in them for the benefit, well being and good health of His people Some people are not called to be preachers or pastors some are not even called to be near the pulpit, talkless of be in the pulpit but rather, were called to be in the medical fields, in the frontiers of medical research etc Someone's healing is lying dormant in a cemetery somewhere because someone insisted on being a pastor etc and refused their original calling and so thereby allowed the gifting (i.e. discoveries, answers etc for the healings) to die with them, untapped and unexploited The body is a complex system and structure Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous --how well I know it. - Psalm 139.14 NLT Except Jesus is on Earth again, one won't see a sliced off ear or cut off leg put back on Putting back limbs, recreating limbs etc will happen as miracles in the medical arenas The body is so fearfully and wonderfully made that God grants divine healing for sickness or diseases Bottom line is that some healing, God will play His part and grant it and as for the other healings, God has already blessed certain people with the knowledge to succeed in achieving these healings for the benefit of mankind and all On closing, this is not meant to dampen anyone’s faith in healing because of course, cancer etc gets healed with faith by God just like that and without medical interferences Now it must be said that, it is God's prerogative to heal It is God that gives faith for healing or to receive healing Faith for healing needs to be used, the right way, the right moment or time and used at right standing with God I sense I've left gaps in this post, this can be put down to not having enough time right now to dwell too much on this submission Exodus 15:26 however sums the submission up. I REST MY CASE ON F2, FOR NOW. [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size] 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by RedReact: 1:11am On Jul 02, 2014 |
Although I would have been part of the discourse all these while, but the kind of insults and counter-insults by the proponents of WoF and those against it are not what describes a believer at all. We grow in understanding on daily basis, even in the secular world, we have no full knowledge/understandings of things we see daily; how much more the things not seen at all. Even some of the early apostles didn't fully comprehend the salvation agenda, which was made available to both Jews and Gentiles, and that in God's agenda segregation is been done away with, until The Father had to raise Paul, the Apostle. That said, I will still lay the blame of errancy of any creed, WoF or Word of Power (if anything were like that) to the people that follow it without following the Scriptures. The problem is that we are not behaving like the Berean Christians at all, and many of us are looking for those things that suit us, which is why I will always respect the Christians in communist China or few-existent ones in North Korea or the ones in Arabian countries where persecution is like a food to them, compared to us. Having been/being with a ministry that has Rev'd Kenneth E Hagin (of blessed memory) as one of its mentors, I know about the WoF very well. However, I can say that many parts of the Scriptures are being misused, among which include 3 John 2. May God help His church and also we help ourselves too. 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 1:55pm On Jul 02, 2014 |
 If one is given tea stirred with just a teeny weeny dash of poison, it then becomes impossible to drink just tea! Have nothing to do with the useless works that darkness produces. Instead, expose them for what they are - Ephesians 5:11 GOD'S WORD Translation 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 5:33pm On Jul 02, 2014 |
I introduce the question of Paul's thorn in the flesh to this discuss. I present for your reading to point an issue concerning the believer in illness. Question: "What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?" Answer: Paul speaks of a “thorn in the flesh” in 2 Corinthians 12:7. He calls it “a messenger of Satan” that had a purpose of “torment.” Many explanations have been put forward, but whether Paul is referring to a physical, spiritual, or emotional affliction—or something else entirely—has never been answered with satisfaction. Since he was not talking of a literal thorn, he must have been speaking metaphorically. Some of the more popular theories of the thorn’s interpretation include temptation, a chronic eye problem, malaria, migraines, epilepsy, and a speech disability. Some even say that the thorn refers to a person, such as Alexander the coppersmith, who did Paul “a great deal of harm” (2 Timothy 4:14). No one can say for sure what Paul’s thorn in the flesh was, but it was a source of real pain in the apostle’s life. Paul clues us in concerning the thorn’s purpose: “To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations.” So, God’s goal in allowing the thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble. Anyone who had encountered Jesus and was commissioned personally by Him (Acts 9:2- would, in his natural state, become “puffed up.” Add to that the fact that Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to write much of the New Testament, and it is easy to see how Paul could become “haughty” (KJV) or “exalted above measure” (NKJV) or “too proud” (NCV).Paul also says that the affliction came from or by a “messenger of Satan.” Just as God allowed Satan to torment Job (Job 1:1-12), God allowed Satan to torment Paul for God’s own good purpose. No one likes to live in pain. Paul sought the Lord three times to remove this source of pain from him (2 Corinthians 12: . He probably had many good reasons why he should be pain-free: he could have a more effective ministry; he could reach more people with the gospel; he could glorify God even more! But the Lord was more concerned with building Paul’s character and preventing pride. Instead of removing the problem, whatever it was, God gave Paul more overwhelming grace and more compensating strength. Paul learned that God’s “power is made perfect in weakness” (verse 9).The exact nature of Paul’s thorn in the flesh is uncertain. There is probably a good reason that we don’t know. God likely wanted Paul’s difficulty to be described in general enough terms to apply to any difficulty we may face now. Whether the “thorn” we struggle with today is physical, emotional, or spiritual, we can know that God has a purpose and that His grace is all-sufficient. Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Paul-thorn-flesh.html#ixzz36KTEQuBO 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 6:07pm On Jul 02, 2014 |
[size=16pt]PAUL'S THORN IN THE FLESH[/size] The matter of divine healing began to take centre stage in evangecalism following disease epidemics. What I believe was a legimitimate move of God in healing diseased people, seem to have taken an extreme position in "divine health" - that is the doctrine that says there are some truth you learn that will ensure you are never sick. We have seen from what has been aforementioned that this is not biblical truth. Nonetheless God still heals and my hope is that anyone who seeks him in regards to healing, in prayer, will find it. However, the story of Paul's thorn in the flesh can offer tremendous comfort and strenght as we face difficulties including times of sickness and ecen death. I agree with many biblical commentaries that Paul's thorn was not sickness, but I also believe we cannot say for sure what it was. The lessons he learnt and wrote on from that experience should however comfort any saint experiencing afliction. Whatever Paul thorn was, we see that like Paul, if we are ill, we can besought the Lord. As that passage shows we see that the answer to the prayer lies, not with the authority to command God, but on the good sovereignity of God. Our hope is that our prayers will be answered. But if it is not, may God grant us ears to hear him tell us the reason why the afliction lingers so that like Paul we can even glory in our infirmity and enjoy a renewed grace of God. Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones died in 1981 at 81 years. On his death bed he instructed his family and doctors to discontinue further medication. His words: "Do not keep me from glory..." The late Pastor R B Thieme teaches a concept of dying grace. He says whatever state in which the saint dies, God grants dying grace. So that the Holy Ghost comforts through death unto glory. It is not for nought that Paul states that death has lost its sting, including its sting in sickness! One of the sorriest times in WOF churches (atleast the one I worshipped at before) are members reaction to fellow members death. They are usually devastated. Having been taught a sugar candy doctrine of health and wealth, with long life; if anyone dies, the church have no answers. Does not the bible teach of eternal life? What's this preoccupation with living till 120? Did the Master not die at 33? What is life purpose: is it how long or how well? Is God not able to work all things, including sickness and death for our good? Why should WOF adherents teach a concept of divine health when everyone of their apostles died of sickness? Kenyon died of brain tumour. Hagin had a bad heart and eventually succumbed to it. Etc. Why not teach the truth of God word which is that God can heal if he pleases. When he doesnt, it for a good purpose and not because people lack faith? Whatever Paul afflictions were, he was afflicted like any other Christian may be afflicted and this can even inluclude sickness. We trust God for a long and fruitful life but even more for us to fulfill God's purposes and go home in his own time. Some instructive scriptures in regards to sick Christians in Scripture: 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by RedReact: 7:04am On Jul 03, 2014 |
If the Church of Christ is not going to learn now, she is going to learn the hard way. I desire and pray for a great and prosperous Nigeria, where developmental and economic challenges will be at the lowest ebb, but we should know that should Nigeria attain that status, by His grace we will, then the church is going to learn the hard way. Many people will abandon church and the pews we are seeing today will become scanty. WoF has succeeded in doing one thing; seeking God for His favours and promise of fanciful things,taking the center stage. Not that in those things are not good, but we must remember that the way God does His things are beyond the doings of man, faith or no faith apart. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 12:05pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
[size=16pt] Scriptures that relate to Christians being sick in the bible:[/size] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me – Matthew 25 Jesus, the Master himself, who WOF claim was never sick, say here “I was sick…” Now I understand that our Lord was speaking metaphorically but we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus was not ashamed to identify with the sick among his people to the extent of saying that when they were sick, he himself was sick. Again, it brings to question the language that many WOF adherents use, when they refuse to say they are “sick” but would rather say they are “strong”. Apparently Jesus had no time for such positive speaking nonsense. 13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh [/i]I preached the gospel unto you at the first. 14 [i]And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me – Galatians 4 Paul is speaking to the Galatian church about his “infirmity in the flesh” or “temptation” in the flesh. Some believe that because he referred to the Galatians plucking out their eyes, h might have sustained an eye injury from an incidence where he was stoned. Whatever it was, it is safe to say that the great apostle was not well physically (“infirmity in the flesh”) and was possibly sick. 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick – 2 Timothy 4 Paul, in his usual remarks/greetings to close his epistle, speaks of one of his assistants, Trophimus, who he left sick at Miletum. The questions that this short but incisive scripture begs are: Was Paul, as anointed as he was, unable to heal his assistant? Did Trophimus not know enough of the gospel of “divine health”, if indeed that was the kind of gospel Paul preached, to be well? It seem to me that it was not uncommon for Christians in the first century to see strong members fall sick and to say so without feeling ashamed or think they are speaking negatively. 25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. 26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow – Phillipians 2 Another of Paul’s companions/assistant is here said to be sick. In fact his own sickness was near unto death. Paul speaks of his possible healing as God having mercy on them both. Not that he commanded the illness to go. Not that Epaphroditus suddenly found a revelation in Mark 11:24 and was healed. It was simply that God had mercy on them and spared Paul of sorrow. Which is the right attitude a Christian should have: a heart of thanksgiving for mercy, not one of "right" or proprietary that the doctrine of guaranteed health conveys. 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities – 1 Timothy 5 Timothy is said here to have often/frequent illness. The one who probably succeeded Paul in ministry is said to be sick often. It is clear from the foregoing that the doctrine of divine health was foreign to New Testament. Indeed there were healing, such that we would call divine healing. But to claim that Christians could attain to a level of knowledge of God’s word and confess them long enough to dwell in divine health is foreign to the bible. Some other New Age doctrines might teach it, and it could be working for them. But the fact that it works is not enough to claim that it is gospel truth. We see from the account of scriptures that there is no such thing as a doctrine of divine health. We see from the experiences of first century Christians that some of them were sick, and it did not make them any less a Christian nor prove that they were weak Christians. I said all this to prove the theses that the gospel of “guaranteed health” or divine health is not a gospel or doctrine of the New Testament. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by loveroftruth: 4:43pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size] As much as i will agree that people eyes are opening up to the fraud and lies in what is called "Christianity" in churches today and the effort that is being directed to exposed such here, i will want participtants like @BabaGnoni to stick to the purpose of the thread and not make unverifiable claims on scriptures that has nothing to do with what he had said. Sticking to the aims of this thread will help desist the need for people to come to make a correction on issues that are unrelated to the topic. BabaGnoni: that ^ statement is insinuating that the Garden of eden, a paradis was to be filled with trouble for Adam and his children even though Adam had not sin. Now, that ^ statement is just your vain opinion as far as scriptures are concern, their troubles and struggling started after Adam sinned and God cursed them, pls, stick to the topic and post only what the bible says, and dont speak into scriptures. BabaGnoni: The key word in that ^ 'SUBDUE' above is > to have control over everything on the earth perpetually. How you came about it meaning that they where to have problems perpetually in Eden beats me. BabaGnoni: You can say that about the promises in the new testament, but when you extend it to the garden of Eden, then you have lost the bible there. Your best bet is to Stick to just what the bible says. Keep your opinion at home, or, at best throw it away. BabaGnoni: Now, that ^ is pure nonsens! How can you say that that Rev 21:4 is talking about Heaven ? Did you not read in vers 2 that the "New Jerusalem" is coming down out of Heaven to earth ? How can vers 4 be talking about Heaven again ? Vers 2 determines where that vers 4 is talking about. Again, was there death in Heaven befor then ?since that vers 4 says "death will be no more" ? What exactly in that revelation 21 makes you think it is talking about Heaven in vers 4 ? You also watch it, you also need to also completely purge yourself of some more of the poisons you have eaten all along. BabaGnoni: Read that ^ again. BabaGnoni: You still also have to purge yourself of certain errors also. Now, read vers 2 of Revelation 21: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2). Death will be no more 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 5:02pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
loveroftruth: ^^^ I agree to all above 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by loveroftruth: 5:06pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: Interesting. Very Good of You to allow the bible to stand. "Though all men be found a liar, let God be found true". Respect to you men! 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 5:31pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
loveroftruth: I agreed to disagree besides the fact that I am also strong conflict is unnecessary or undesirable for me at the moment Having mentioned that, now where has God promised a problem free life (i.e. a guaranteed health) Garden of Eden is an outpost (i.e. a place to guard against surprise attacks) Besides Gen 1:28 is a blessing with a prophetic slant Where you got "...perpetually in Eden..." equally beats me The fact and truth of the matter is that, God never promised a problem free life on earth If He did, Eve would never had to grapple with the serpent in a problem of fight of the minds She falls at the first Overwhelmed by the first (e.g. the "if we touch we will die" control when what God said was if you eat you'll die) No sir, you do err. Contrary to what you think is a vain opinion as far as scriptures are concerned and what you wrote after that the "vain opinion" thought sir, trouble and struggling did not start after Adam sinned or when God cursed. We are sticking to the topic and we are posting only what the bible says, and we do not speak into scriptures Ah. Facepalm. "New Jerusalem". OK, where did "New Jerusalem" pop out from? Out of Hell, from Heaven or out of thin air by means of some abracadabra? 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 7:04pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
BabaGnoni:I agree that there are obviously things that are still for the future including this which you posted earlier: "And God will wipe away every tear from their (believers') eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things (including sickness and ill-health) have passed away" (Rev. 21: 4). What should be noted is "God will..." or "God shall...". This forms part of the believer's HOPE. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 11:02pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
[size=16pt]A Fitting Quote[/size] Here's a quote from an article by Kingsley Larbi in African Bible Commentary edited by Tokunboh Adeyemo (WorldAlive Publishers & Zondervan, 2006) "The traditional understanding of the cause of disease has survived in African Christianity, as is clear from the popularity of prophets and faith healers. The clergy are expected, whether justifiably or not, to authenticate their ministry by exercising powers traditionally credited to religious persons, such as healing, unveiling hidden things, predicting the future, and being able to bless and curse effectively. When such powers are not present, members drift to other churches, attend other healing services, and consult spiritualists and fetish priests. African Christians must realize that God reserves the sole prerogative to heal. Not all the sick in the days of Jesus were healed, nor were all the dead raised to life like Lazarus. Whether Jesus chooses to heal or not does not change the fact that he is Saviour and Lord. Consequently, we must seek him for who he is and not merely for healing". 5 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by loveroftruth: 11:05pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
BabaGnoni:  |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by loveroftruth: 11:06pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
trustman: Better. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 11:15pm On Jul 03, 2014 |
trustman: [size=16pt]A Fitting Quote[/size] BabaGnoni: |
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