Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile - Foreign Affairs (13) - Nairaland
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| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Christoskurion: 6:32pm On Jul 19, 2014 |
hiroz: wtf!!so because malaysia doesnt have jesus thats why they have lost 2 planes with over 500 people in a year.smh for you.what about plane crashes in nigeria with all our churches.yeye=Beloved,be it in Malaysia or in Nigeria,the Prince of Peace and the Fountain of Life is absolutely dependable. He proves the efficacy of His strength wherever the acceptance is given Him. He niether act subtly nor forceful but His working power through the Holy Ghost is sheerly ineffable on our our acceptance. "Righteousness exalt a nation but sin is a reproach to any people". |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by myhero4eva: 7:31pm On Jul 19, 2014 |
No no no! Not again, this is so tragic and highly a targeted act on a country believed to be their enemy. Its time to get down on Russian/Ukrainian soil and sweep into actn, nt afta MH370 MYSTRY |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by homeboy232(m): 12:23am On Jul 20, 2014 |
sexylogan:see dis mumu? To come russia and buy flat within a year u tink say na beans? Waiting u don achieve 4ur life? I be landlord both home and abroad, u wey stil dey live wit ur parents, u fit buy house for europe? Mumu, una go just dey blab online..wen i speak, i speak wit fact and point..barrack boy like me no need any guideline to meet up in diaspora, dat is d reason why God favour me plus my barrack wisdom..i am happy in Russia.. |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:14am On Jul 20, 2014 |
The headlines regarding MH17 emanating from the West are the most outrageous, irresponsible, hate-driven, dangerous propaganda I have ever read. "Putin's Missile," "Putin Killed My Son," "With Jet’s Fall, War in Ukraine Becomes Global," - the headlines ... penned with absolutely no evidence at all to back up any of the claims ... echo the vitriolic war propaganda that inundated the global public when NATO gassed thousands of Syrians in Damascus in August 2013 - now confirmed to be a false flag. Remember these headlines? "Bashar al-Assad kills 1,300 in Syrian nerve gas attack," "French president accuses Syria’s Assad of gassing his own citizens," and "Obama: Syria changed when Assad gassed citizens." When it turned out NATO's regional partners had supplied terrorists with sarin and they were the ones behind the attack, the incident, despite allegedly killing over a thousand people and leaving many more ill, disappeared from headlines and is rarely if ever mentioned again. The "evidence" promised by the West never materialized and the UN NEVER determined who carried it out. I will say that right now there is very little evidence to say what happened in Ukraine with flight MH17 - all I can do is look at what is most probable and wait for real evidence to emerge. What I am CERTAIN of however, is what the West is claiming - without evidence - are fabrications, lies, propaganda, and all fitting precisely the same diseased distortions used in their attempts to justify military intervention in Syria. Remember how close it came? Imagine if they succeeded in launching an attack on Syria with what we now know about Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar's involvement in arming terrorists with sarin to carry out the August 2013 attack... 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:14am On Jul 20, 2014 |
The size of the propaganda campaign vs. Russia regarding the downing of MH17 is absolutely, utterly, unprecedented - without equal. The size of the online assets they have mobilized alone is something to behold. This has all been planned ahead of time - and this makes it 100% a NATO false flag operation. You have "audio" released immediately after the plane went down ... videos of the Buk launcher allegedly coming into Ukraine AND leaving (despite alternate theories that the launcher was taken from Ukraine)! Do you believe this was all incidentally caught on video and pieced together this fast? They tried this with the Damascus Ghouta sarin gas attack too - which later was confirmed to be a false flag attack. NATO mass murdered 300 innocent men, women, and children to get a "leg up" on Russia. These are dangerously insane people - we must not stop, rather redouble our efforts to bury this menace to humanity - no matter what it takes - once and for all. I have never seen them go through so much effort. It is always darkest before the dawn and I believe the level of effort we see here is directly proportional to their desperation. Don't waver, rather, fight harder. 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by HolyHolla(m): 6:31am On Jul 20, 2014 |
More evidences linking pro-Russian separatists to the downing of Malasian airline. www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-airline-evidence-russia-2014-7?utm_content=buffera5d54&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/index.html?sr=fb072014ukraineweapons3pstorylink 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by bookface: 2:00pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
NairaMinted: The size of the propaganda campaign vs. Russia regarding the downing of MH17 is absolutely, utterly, unprecedented - without equal. The size of the online assets they have mobilized alone is something to behold. This has all been planned ahead of time - and this makes it 100% a NATO false flag operation. Oh shut up and stop making Russia out to be the victim! - Everyone with an iota of common sense know that this is nothing short of an informational war to sway public opinion ! Russia is engage in a similar misinformation propaganda on State run media where more than 90% of Russians rely on for their news source. There has been speculations on RT that Ukrainian jet fighters tailed the doomed Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17. Of course, that will make sense if the Ukrainian government, while it already has near total global support, would prefer to set itself up to be hated and condemned by everyone. "An aviation source cited by Kremlin-owned news outlet RT also pushed the idea that Ukrainian forces may have fired a rocket at the Malaysian Boeing, mistaking it for Putin's jet returning from a summit in Brazil." This is the dumbest one i will think. Forget that Kiev will instantly declare war on itself by killing the President of a country with more than 10,000 nuclear weapons and an approval rating above 85%, i will doubt that Putin is expected to be dumb enough to fly over Ukraine, a country he's hoping to wreck. There have also been other wacky Kremlin-drone "explanations"… which remind me of the "CIA are everywhere!!!" loony conspiracy theorists. "Putin has also pointed the finger of blame at his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko, saying it would not have happened if Kiev had not ended a ceasefire with the separatists." Of course. Who else could he blame? His standard scapegoat – blaming the US government – would have been too much of a stretch, even for Putin. "Russian media drew parallels with a Russian passenger jet carrying 78 people which was mistakenly shot down by the Ukrainian military in 2001 as it flew over the Black Sea." This is a very good old Soviet whataboutism. Putin loves those. Surely part of basic training for KGB officers. "China, where the state news agency said in a commentary that officials from the U.S., Australia and other Western countries had jumped to conclusions in pointing their fingers at the rebels in eastern Ukraine or blaming Russia." This I agree with. The Chinese are generally reasonable people. While Putin's thugs are the most likely suspects, it would be better to wait until the investigation is over before making official accusations. The fact that the so-called "rebels" are actively trying to hamper the investigation is just more evidence against them. But not surprising either. Criminals often try to destroy or hide evidence of their crimes. 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Nobody: 2:11pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
NairaMinted: The size of the propaganda campaign vs. Russia regarding the downing of MH17 is absolutely, utterly, unprecedented - without equal. The size of the online assets they have mobilized alone is something to behold. This has all been planned ahead of time - and this makes it 100% a NATO false flag operation. That is total BS! You are back with your usual bullcrap! That is nonsensical! I find it interesting when you go sentimental and resort to all forms of conspiracy theories to support your views. That is the most disturbing part of your post. |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Olaone1: 2:29pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
bookface:I just love the way you managed to exonerate America; while futilely trying to remain neutral as well. Your last line gave you up. You called these separatists criminals. That's fair, uhn? Think about this: Some people occupied government buildings in January and they were called pro-democracy activists. Also, some people occupied government buildings in April and, to the all-knowing, just neutrals like you, they are terrorists/criminals. Again, fair, uhn? Keep munching your sugary popcorn as you stay fixated in front of your TV watching hate/propaganda-filled news-items on Western news channels. 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by bookface: 2:38pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
Olaone1: I will - and you stick to your Soviet TV channels that is completely devoid of hate/propaganda filled news-items |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Olaone1: 2:39pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
bookface:    No hard feeling bro Jesus loves you  |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by tobtap: 2:42pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
u are right.....lies from western propaganda machine... NairaMinted: The headlines regarding MH17 emanating from the West are the most outrageous, irresponsible, hate-driven, dangerous propaganda I have ever read. |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Nobody: 3:08pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
tobtap: u are right.....lies from western propaganda machine...Does it mean only the western nations tell lies the poor nations don't?   |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Underground: 3:21pm On Jul 20, 2014 |
NairaMinted, I am a great admirer of Putin most especially the way he stands up to the hegemony of the West and most recently the victory scored recently with the BRICS bank however the onus is on him to show that he or the separatists are not responsible for this tragedy. I want to believe he is already presenting his case & like you, I await a proper investigation. 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:40am On Jul 21, 2014 |
Whilst I do admit that my views lean strongly towards the anti-west camp, it is for justified reasons. Just look at some of the precedence that the West has set: - The subsequently discredited Ghouta chemical attacks August last year in which the West - without providing any shred of evidence - rushed into pinning on the SYrian goverment, conveniently overlooking the fact that a senior UN weapons inspector had blamed a similar attack at Khan-Assal, March of that same year on insurgents. - The fabricated "slam-dunk evidence" that Colin Powell presented to the UN security council back in 2003 as the Bush administration built a case for an unprovoked and unjustified war against Iraq, a country which today I must add is now a cesspool of sectarian violence and instability, a situation very much in contrast to the peace, stability and liberation that the West promised. What of Libya? How is the "liberation" of the Libyan people post Ghaddafi working out? And Syria? Do you really believe that the crisis unfolding in Syria and now Iraq is as a result of Assad's refusal to meet the demands of peaceful protesters? You should keep in mind that Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh in his article, "The Redirection: Is the Administration's new policy benefiting our enemies in the war on terrorism?" prophetically stated (emphasis added): "To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda." This was in 2007! Are you even aware that high ranking Turkish officials (a NATO member country) were caught discussing how to stage a false flag attack as a pretext for military intervention in Syria sometime last year? And how this was leaked thereby leading to Youtube being blocked in Turkey? All these is what makes me highly skeptical of whatever the West presents as "evidence". It's lies and falsifications continues to get exposed and it's insidious creation and support of extreme, barbaric elements while duplicitously dorning a garment of peace, prosperity and freedom is exactly what makes me suspicious of the West's intentions. Did you, my friend even bother to look up the things I mentioned in my last post, that you have now dismissed as conspiracy theories? Which is the conspiracy? Are you aware that the "evidence" promised by the West with regards to Ghouta never materialized and the UN NEVER determined who carried it out. Why have you decided to avoid some of my posts? Please by all means, join the discussion and air your views as I always look forward to an engaging discourse with intelligent, critical thinking and progressive individuals. The kind that are incapable of a such thought provoking and analytical discussion but rather resort to going off topic, citing irrelevant accounts, continually displaying their bigoted, uncompromising beliefs and trading insults, I simply ignore. I do however appreciate your agreement with me on a host of issues and yes, my post heavily swung in favour of a conspiracy from the West but based the antecedents of the West, why wouldn't I? Finally, read my post again. I never concluded that this downing was a false flag. I only asked pertinent questions and reminded readers of the past manipulations, distortions and deceptions of the West when it provided falsified, fictitious and fabricated evidence that weighed so heavily against the accused so much so that it seemed that the accused was irretractably nailed? I subscribe to Business Insider and I have read ALL those articles you sent prior to you even posting them. It follows the same pattern of unrelenting, unabated, irresponsbile and heavily biased propaganda that ensued after the chemical attack in Syria even though nothing is yet to be confirmed and 'evidence" provided so far is all circumstantial - and whether you accept it or not, can be rebuffed. Russia too is very much capable of its own propaganda and I must admit that some of the actions of the separatists has been suspicious but like I said before, we should all wait for the outcome of a full indepedent investigation rather than rush into a hasty conclusion as we have several times in the past and should the separatists be found to be the guilty party, I would be the first to own up that I had wrong with my suspicions. 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:47am On Jul 21, 2014 |
Just look at this propaganda fail from the Ukranian government. Caught out squarely in their lies. The supposed same truck within a space of a minute and 10 secs has a completely different kind of bumper stickers. Compare the first pictures with the 4th one! Also the truck in the 6th picture (from a report a few days ago) is even totally different altogether! The lies are so poorly constructed that it is laughalble! This is a complete fail..You can see what I mean when I say the torrent of propaganda is unprecedented and suspicious? [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699170/Is-BUK-missile-launcher-shot-MH17-smuggled- Russia-Motorist-captures-military-truck-carrying-BUK-M1-border-town.html[/url] 2 Likes
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| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:48am On Jul 21, 2014 |
By the way, has any one even asked if it was actually a Buk battery that downed plane? Think about it! Did a Buk missisle battery actually bring down a plane? How can we be sure of what was used? WHERE’S THE MISSILE? No eyewitnesses at all have seen the missile trail. They heard loud explosions; they saw not one but two shadowing fighter jets; they saw stuff and even body parts falling out of the sky. But NOBODY saw the missile trail. A BUK missile leaves a quite GRAPHIC AND THICK trail. Ukraine's SUB security confiscated all Air Control Tower records and ground radar tracks. Thus the extremely credible possibility that the shadowing fighter jets were flying over Donbass under the cover of MH17 – as directed by Kiev’s traffic control – to get recon on how the federalists are shaping up on the ground. And this also could open to yet another credible possibility - that the MH17’s transponder was tampered with or shut down. What’s certain is that Kiev, under CIA orders, WON’T release these records – which would be able to explain A LOT. 2 Likes
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| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:48am On Jul 21, 2014 |
all4naija: Oh yes indeed! In hindsight I can tell that I was sentimental with that last post. Did I actually lay blame directly at NATOs's feet in the las post? wOW! I shouldn't have allowed my sentiments get the better of me. I was just typing passionately. I rather meant to say NATO/West is as well very capable of such an act as their past acions show. I however don't peddle conspiracy theories. Look up all I have posted. |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 1:58am On Jul 21, 2014 |
This is a video of the trail a Buk missile leaves in its wake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPtDy18Nk5I 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by bookface: 12:26pm On Jul 21, 2014 |
NairaMinted: By the way, has any one even asked if it was actually a Buk battery that downed plane? Think about it! "NOBODY saw the missile trail" - - I don't know where you live, but my wild guess tells me you don't live anywhere near Eastern Ukraine and you are not likely to have had a friend/relative who witnessed the incident. Therefore the only way you could have obtained this information is through Russian sources! This destroys the integrity of your argument! You can't conclude that no one saw the missile trail unless dozens of witnesses have been interviewed by independent parties. "they saw not one but two shadowing fighter jets"- How come only the Russians/the rebels saw two shadowing fighter jets? One Russian news source claimed Ukraine shot the BUK missile hoping to target President Putin's plane - Another news source claimed the Jet was bought down by Fighter jets - I'm confused, which is which? "WHERE’S THE MISSILE?" Seriously? Let's assume YOU were the one who shot the missile - and you have access to the crime scene three consecutive days afterwards, i suppose you will simply leave the missile casings lying about on the floor for the world to see how guilty you are? Let's not ask silly questions - If a country as big as Russia wishes to mop out a crime scene, it wouldn't really take too much effort to do so. "Ukraine's SUB security confiscated all Air Control Tower records and ground radar tracks." You are the head of the SUB security - a plane has just been shot down within your airspace - What do you do? a) Confiscate all air control records and tower tracks which will serve as vital pieces of evidence b) Give in to Russian demands and provide them with your air control records and radar tracks to prove you are innocent c) Do nothing - leave the data as it is and let anyone have access to any information they want to prove you are open and transparent 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 2:18am On Jul 22, 2014 |
I would respond to your questions and remarks. bookface: I don't live in that region, yes. Neither do I have friends in that area as well. Do you? I really don't see how that is relevant to this topic. And speaking of sources. What are yours? I am guessing yours are sources that aren't Russian so does that automatically make yours credible and mine not trustworthy? Is that what you are insinuating? Well, it may interest you to know that my sources are mostly American - yes, American!. Sources that are generally known as the Alternative News Media. Sources that generally are rich in material; sources that provide a fair assessment of events; sources that are independent and mostly seek the truth as they are not owned by or affiliated with some big corporation or government; sources that provide a deeper insight into matters. Paul Craig Roberts, Ray McGovern, Robert Parry, Paul R. Pillar, Tom Engelhardt, Prof Michel Chossudovsky, Seymour Hersch, Prof Stephen Cohen, and so many others, some of which have held positions in the CIA and government and/or currently work in or write papers for prestigious American institutions and news media such as Globalresearch, New Eastern Outlook, TomDispatch, ConsortiumNews and so many others are my RUSSIAN SOURCES and in conclusion, from your definition, my Its been 5 days since MH17 was downed. We still await witnesses that witnessed that smoke trail to step forward.... bookface: "they saw not one but two shadowing fighter jets"- That Ukranian jets trailed the plane is at all not in dispute. See, some of your Western sources have even reported this... http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7 And about the matter of what exactly was used to bring down the plane. What the Russian authorities initially said that if indeed the plane was brought down by Buk missile as the West is claiming, it must have been from the Ukranian authorities as they had just recently moved such a battery to the region some days before. Intelligence later revealed that two figther jets escorted the plane. bookface: "WHERE’S THE MISSILE?" a) my friend BUT have the Ukranian authorities turned over these recordings to anyone including independent investigators? NO they have not! Question remains: How do you know a Buk missile battery brought down MH17? I really need an answer to that question......The Russians have made their presentation. Where is that of the Ukranians?? 2 Likes |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by Underground: 3:11am On Jul 22, 2014 |
NairaMinted: I would respond to your questions and remarks. I follow your posts and I must say you do have a compelling argument. The shadowing fighter jets, the Buk batteries deployed days before, the lies such as the Buk carrying trucks that have been exposed, etc.... You are though quite a character. Someone must be really be at his A game to tango with you. I can tell from your posts that you are intelligent. Perhaps a little overly paranoid but very intelligent I must say.... 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by bookface: 9:59am On Jul 22, 2014 |
NairaMinted: I would respond to your questions and remarks. No! You miss the point! - I am not here to debate Western vs Anti-western news sources. My point is that the credibility of your argument suffers because you presented as a fact - "Nobody saw the missile trails" - an important piece of information that is most likely to have been derived from Russian sources which are widely expected to show a biased reporting. In order words, you and i will probably not be having this debate if you have mentioned: "According to Russia News sources, nobody saw the missile trails". This will allow readers to judge themselves how much truthfulness they will assign to that information. It will also let readers distinguish between facts, opinion and propaganda. The last thing we need is someone presenting propaganda as facts. NairaMinted: Again I am not here to debate Western vs Anti-western news sources. The fact that this information appears on a Western media does not make it true or as you argue, indisputable. Also, the fact that it doesn't appear on BBC or CNN does not mean it is not true! Most news media are expected to be tools to sway public opinions. BBC has had a very biased coverage of the GAZA crises since it started and i even joined a public protest at their London office during the past weekend. Same way Russian media blatantly lied that a child was crucified by Ukrainian Authorities.
So you do agree that you will also have confiscated the materials just the same way the Ukrainian Authorities have done? And how have you come to the conclusion that Ukrainian Authorities, up to this moment, have not turned those pieces of evidence over to Independent investigators? Let me guess: a) Because the Russians say so b) Because Independent Investigators complained that Ukrainian Authorities haven't been co-operative with evidence c) Because i just feel so d) Other Again, if you are an RT reporter or have reasons to promote the Russian side of the story then you should clearly disclose this. But for the purpose of debate, it is important to separate facts, opinions and propaganda. Question remains: How do you know a Buk missile battery brought down MH17? I really need an answer to that question......The Russians have made their presentation. Where is that of the Ukranians?? I simply don't know for sure that it is definitely a BUK missile. But so far, the theories making the grounds are a) The Russians shot it down with a SAM: I believe that this is the most improbable scenarios as the Russians do not have any objective to achieve by doing so. b) Ukraine shot it down either with Fighter Jets or with a SAM This is a probable scenario and Russia claims it could prove that Ukrainian Jets were scrambled around the time the Jet was brought down. It also claims that Ukraine activated its radar station during this period. I find this version of the story difficult to believe because following are likely to be true: - Since the conflict started Ukraine has not shot at malicious objects in its airspace -The rebels don't have planes so Ukraine shouldn't have a reason to deploy SAMs -Even when Ukraine claimed Russia violated its airspace several times, it wouldn't take the risk of shooting down a Russian aircraft since this will mean war and Kiev will fall within 2 days While it may be claimed that Ukraine has the motives to attract the world's sympathy - it doesn't make sense to me that it will deliberately choose to do so by shooting down a civilian plane. It already has the support of Western governments. It knows it is not likely to get the support of China or India. So why shoot down an airplane? I think the rewards (of making Russia/rebels look bad) pales in comparison to the risk (of loosing Western support and loosing the war if discovered) so on the balance of probabilities, i think this scenario is not likely to have been the case c) The rebels mistook the airplane for an Ukrainian military airplane and shot it down We know that they following are likely to be true: - that the rebels have shot down Ukrainian military aircraft in the past. -that the rebels have the will and something to gain by shooting down an Ukrainian military aircraft. -that the rebels may not have sophisticated military training as a conventional army and may be unable to distinguish between a civilian carrier and a military aircraft. -that the rebels are not likely have known that a civilian aircraft is within Ukrainian airspace as Ukraine tower control is not likely to have shared that information with them -the rebels denied independent investigators access to the crash site for more than 3 days On the balance of probabilities, this third theory looks more convincing. d) The Americans shot it down This is a long shot. But you can't put anything past conspiracy theorists. |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 7:00pm On Jul 22, 2014 |
Alas! I see some objective and methodical approach from you. First let me say kudos to you for participating in the protest in London. The Israel/Palestine conflict is too touchy an issue for me to share my opinions on. It is a conlict that this steeped in fanatical and illogical support for or hatred for either side. It will be very difficult, if not impossible to discuss the issue with a bigoted supporter. I however know war crimes and genocide when I see one. I also know one-sided, biased news coverage when I see one. Good thing you protested - although the BBC hardly provided coverage of the protest . So there! I'll jump straight to who is most likely behind the downing of MH17. The question you have to ask is cui bono? Who stands to gain from it? Scenarios: a) "The Russians shot it down with a SAM:" Highly improbable! Let's not even delve into this. "b) Ukraine shot it down either with Fighter Jets or with a SAM" Very possible! Why? Because their military campaign was losing traction. They could have staged a false flag - only with the blessing of the CIA, I might add - to draw the world's sympathy to their cause. Granted, the rebels do not have planes so the Ukranian authorities seemingly wouldn't have a reason to deploys SAMs to that area but still, the question remains: what if they did just that for the purpose of staging a false flag attack? Nazis and fascists in power? It is not beyond them my friend! And why do you assume the Ukranians wouldn't deploy SAMs to shoot down Russian planes? Because they are afraid of Russia you say? It's not like Russia was making it known publicly that they had their planes flying over Ukranian airspace - if they actually did - aiding the rebels, so I don't see what stops Ukraine from taking a shot at Russian planes and even using such a victory to their advantage as they can then show the whole world that, "Look! Putin says he isn't aiding the rebels but here is a Russian jet we shot down. Here are the Russian pilots we captured!" . This will undoubtedly serve as a huge propaganda advantage to the Ukranians eventually forcing those European countries that have been hesistant to impose tough sanctions on Russia to finally take action. Sanctions that will really hit hard at Russia, such as France not delivering Russia's Mistral warships and so forth - not these light weight one such as travel bans targetting certain high ranking Russian officials! "c) The rebels mistook the airplane for an Ukrainian military airplane and shot it down" Highly probable. - 'that the rebels have shot down Ukrainian military aircraft in the past.'' Very true. Confirmed using MANPADs -'that the rebels have the will and something to gain by shooting down an Ukrainian military aircraft." Absolutely correct! -"that the rebels may not have sophisticated military training as a conventional army and may be unable to distinguish between a civilian carrier and a military aircraft." Very possible but the onus will be on you to prove that the rebels had these sophisticated hardware to be able to take down a plane at such a height. So far the videos of rebels allegedly transporting these lauchers back to Russia have gaping holes in them and till today CANNOT be verified! Nor have those audio recordings incredidly provided in record time! Just yesterday the best the deputy spokesperson of the State Department, Marie Harf could offer was a “preponderance of evidence” pointing to the fact that militia in eastern Ukraine downed flight MH17. That the US government’s suspicions were based on information gathered from social media sites. “We saw in social media afterwards, we saw videos, we saw photos of the pro-Russian separatists bragging about shooting down an aircraft,” Wow! Just, wow! The US government want to impose sanctions and possibly go to war based on evidence from social media sites?? Shame, shame, shame!! -"the rebels denied independent investigators access to the crash site for more than 3 days ." This is a blatant lie. I personally watched coverage switching between Sky News and CNN and I can categorically tell you that OSCE monitors were on site by the following morning! A Western independent news reporter - can't remember his name - was there even earlier and more specilized investigators followed the OSCE monitors by the following day, I think. This I watched with my own korokoro eyes! "d) The Americans shot it down" My dear friend, nothing is beyond the CIA. For an institution that has assassinated or overthrown the leaders of soverign countries - many democratic and sowed the seeds of destablization & destruction in stable but non-conformist countries more than all other countries combined, i wouldn't put it past them. When John Brennan visited the Nazi dominated government back in April am sure it wasn't because he was on vacation 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by nora544: 7:16pm On Jul 22, 2014 |
-"that the rebels may not have sophisticated military training as a conventional army and may be unable to distinguish between a civilian carrier and a military aircraft." I hear from an Austrian military man (we didnot belong to the nato) that normaly for this missile they have to learn on the system for about 6 month that they make no mistakes, so he told that it is possibe that the rebells make it but they have not the information how to use it right. I know that a news man from my country was very fast at this place, to tell us what happen and OSCE, which is based in Vienna, Austria where theire the next day. What I know is that America, Russia, Israel, Ukraine all make the mistake to send missile to civilian plains and that is fact. Malasian Airline the other plane who got lost at the same time america make a test in this place to test something, if they can make some changes in the civil air control. For America all is possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 12:04am On Jul 23, 2014 |
Updates: Desperate, desperate West A few minutes ago on CNN Breaking News, the US State Department (probably taking a cue from their Russian counterparts) made a truly atrocious and pitiful press briefing in which "new evidence" with regards to MH17 was presented ONLY that as expected they repeated pretty much what they have been saying all along: that the separatists most likely fired the SA-11 (Buk) missile, blah, blah, blah. The only difference this time around in the accusations from the US authorities (perhaps due to they realizing their narrative is falling apart at the seams) is that they are yet to determine if the Russians themselves had any direct involvement in the alleged attack. This is a remarkable change of tune consisdering what they have already accussed Russia of: transporting the missile batteries back to Russia, consfisticating the black boxes, hindering the investigators on site and so much other crap! The only other item of note that was presented was satellite images of these Russian training camps right over the border in Rostov, Russia. Like duh! If these camps truly do exist (and that is if they are not actually legitimate Russain military installations), of course it's known to everyone one that the Moscow has supported the separatists from day one. That was a open secret. Duh! You can see how the US authorities have tried to play a fast one and insult our intelligence by presenting evidence of support from Russia for the rebels as "new evidence" that the separatists lauched a Buk missisle..... Just how stu.p.id do they think people are?? Really? Just how stu.p.id? Lol! Mind you, with reagrds to a Buk missile being used by the separatist, till today, no satellige images has been presented. No radar tracks as well. Nothing! Zilch! Nada! Those "unconfrirmed", "unverified" YouTube videos and audio recodrdings which the West is pinning its hopes on have been discredited! The Ukranian authorities also are yet to answer the questions posed by their Russian counterparts. 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 12:09am On Jul 23, 2014 |
Remember the same frenzied reaction and demonizing of Asasd post that chemical attack in Ghouta August last year? The same "We have got evidence", "We have recordings of Syrian commanders discussing the attack", blah, blah, blah........Till today the US has failed to provide this evidence and what is the verdict today? One of the most prestigious American institutions released a report pointing their fingers - following a proper investogation o! - in the direction of the Summary is this: some people so badly want a war to cover their tracks hence the rush to war based on lousy, weak, unverified, unsubstantiated and completely fabricated "evidence" 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by HolyHolla(m): 8:50am On Jul 25, 2014 |
A much more practical and intelligent analysis of doubt of Russia's culpability in the shooting down of the Malasian airline: thediplomat.com/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-what-if-russia-wasnt-involved/ "Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: What If Russia Wasn’t Involved? There is an increasing amount of evidence that Russia wasn’t necessarily directly involved in the tragedy. Nearly immediately after MalaysianAirlines Flight 17 was downed by a surface-to-air missile on Thursday, all eyes in the West turned to Russia. Ukrainianand Western officials, along with most of the Western press, have all but blamed the incident on Russia. Even if Russian agents weren’t directly involved in the incident, Russia is accused of providing the rebels with the material and technical support necessary to carry out the attack. For Ukrainian and Western officials, this is a smart strategy. If I was an adviser to the U.S. or Ukrainiangovernment, I would undoubtedly advocate that trying to leverage the tragedy to pressure Russia to abandon its support for the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine (albeit, I would advise against making falsifiable accusations before the facts were in). I would also advise that the American or Ukrainian government seek to use the situation to rally greater European support for sanctions against Russia if Moscow did not back down. There are good reasons to think that this strategy would work and the downing of MH17 will end up being a game changer in the ongoing civil war in the Ukraine. That being said, the Pacific Realist is not on the payrolls of the U.S., Ukraine or any government. As such, I feel at liberty to state what seems to be increasingly obvious but largely ignored: namely, that it’s quite possible that Russia wasn’t directly involved in the MH17 incident. Which isn’t to say that it is not possible that it did play some role. U.S. and other intelligence seem to confirm that the surface-to-air missile was fired from rebel-controlled areas of the Ukraine, not from Russian soil. Still, Russia has non-uniformed military and intelligence officers on the ground in eastern Ukraine, and some of these forces could have participated in the operation that shot down the plane. Alternatively (or additionally), Russia could have provided the rebels with the Buk surface-to-air missile system that was used to shoot down the plane. Even if Moscow didn’t provide the system itself, it could have provided the rebels with technical training to allow them to operate the system. Still, it seems increasingly likely that Russia wasn’t involved at all (at least directly). While Russia certainly has some military and intelligence officers on the ground, it’s difficult to believe they’d be incompetent enough to think it’s a good idea to shoot down an aircraft flying at a high altitude without having any idea whether it is a military or civilian plane. I understand that many in the West see Russia as an adversary, and rightly so. But it is foolish to assume that one’s adversaries are stupid. It’s more likely that Russia provided the rebels with the Buk surface-to-air missile system that was used in the attack. After all, Moscow has been providing the rebels with anti-aircraft weaponry for some time now. At the same time, there’s good reasons to doubt the system used against MH17 came from Russia. To begin with, it’s not clear what Russia would stand to gain from providing the rebels with such sophisticated AA systems. Russia clearly has an interest in disrupting and neutralizing Kiev’s ability to use air power against the rebels. However, given the fairly limited air capabilities of the Ukraine military, the rebels could significantly disrupt air operations using more rudimentary anti-aircraft weaponry like MANPADS. Transferring these to the rebels would carryfar less risk for Russia than giving them more sophisticated systems (for example, MANPADS can’t shoot down civilian aircraft flying at high altitudes). More importantly, the Ukraine military also operates Buk surface-to-air systems, and there were reports last month that the rebels had captured at least one of these systems from the Ukraine military. Thus, while it wouldn’t be shocking to learn Russia had provided the Buk system that shot down MH17, it seems at least as likely that the system originated from Ukrainian forces. Russia would be most likely to have provided technical training to the rebels to enable them to operate a Buk system they had captured. Although the system is fairly easy to use relative to other sophisticated anti-aircraft missile systems, the individuals operating the system would have to have had some training. And training the rebels to use a Buk system would be less detectable and less egregious if Russia was caught red handed doing it (at least, it would have been seen as less egregious had the rebels not shot down a civilian aircraft.) Moreover, Gen. Philip Breedlove, head of U.S. European Command, told reporters last month that Russia has training the rebels in using anti-aircraft weapons. For all these reasons, it’s more likely that Russia provided training to the rebels rather than provided them with the actual Buk systems. However, there is an equally plausible alternative explanation; namely, the rebels using the Buk system had been trained by the Ukraine military. Of course, the Ukraine military wouldn’t have trained them to use the system while they were rebels. However, it stands to reason that some of the current pro-Russian Ukrainianrebels formerly served in the Ukrainian military. After all, only a few short months ago the Ukraine government was controlled by Viktor Yanukovych. Not only is Yanukovych pro-Russian, but he was born in Donetsk Oblast (the province where the plane was shot down), became its Vice-Head in 1996 and then served as its governor for five years between 1997 and 2002. In other words, the plane was shot down in Yanukovych’s home base. It’s hardly unthinkable that some members of the Ukraine military were loyal to the Yanukovych government and Russia, and therefore left the armed forces to join the rebels when the former government was overthrown by western Ukrainians. Thus, some of the rebel forces most likely have prior experience operating the Buk systems from their days serving in the Ukraine military. Since rebel forces reportedly acquired the Buk missile systems from retreating Ukraine forces last month, but only started using them earlier this week, it’s possible it took the rebel leaders two weeks or so to locate former military men who had experience operating the systems, and/or spent time having them train other rebels in how to use the system. Three points are worth (re)emphasizing. First, none of the above rules out the possibility that Russia was involved directly in downing MH17. It merely suggests that Russia wasn’t necessarily involved directly in the incident, as many in the Western media seem to assume. Second, regardless of whether Russia was directly involved or not, American officials should continue to try and blame Russia for it in order to get Moscow to withdraw its support for the rebels or convince Europe to increase pressure against Russia. In doing so, the Obama administration should be careful to avoid making accusations that Moscow can later disprove conclusively. However, the situation is murky enough that the White House has adequate ammunition to use against Russia, especially if its charges are more general and vague. Finally, even if Russia wasn’t directly involved in the downing of MH17, it is not altogether faultless. In fact, it shoulders a significant amount of blame simply because it has been giving the rebels enough support to allow the conflict to continue to escalate this far. TheMH17 tragedy has underscored the risks states incur when arming non-state actors. Hopefully this lesson will be taken to heart not only by Russian officials, but also by their counterparts in other states that arm or are considering arming non-state actors– including Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Turkey, the EU, the U.S and many, many others..." |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 2:11pm On Jul 25, 2014 |
HollyHolla, I am glad you posted this article yourself as you have now obviously contradicted your previous stance. Your stance of assuredness that the rebels indeed were responsible for the downing of MH17. You can see how this pathetic writer has attempted to backtrack on the narrative that Washington was previously drumming into our ears: "We have evidence that the separatist are responsible", "our assets on the ground indicate that the separatists had an operational missile battery", "Putin's missile!", etc.... The tune this shameless writer is singing now - obviously in light of exposure of fabricated "evidence" or lack thereof - is that "Russia may not be directly" involved BUT regardless the US should continue to try and blame Russia in order to get Moscow to withdraw it's support for the rebels or convince Europe to increase pressure against Russia" Who write this kind of c.r.a.p? HollyHolla, I know you are a smart guy and see through B.S. when its thrown in your face..... And let me finish by predicting how this whole thing will go down eventually: the outcome of the investigation will be inconclusive just like the case of the dodgy "evidence" (never revealed by the way) the US goverment claimed to have indicting the government of Syria in the aftermath of the Al-Nusra orchestrated chemical attacks in Ghouta last year. And just like that incident, the outcome of the investigation will be forgotten; never to be mentioned again... PS: The only area I and the write find common ground though is this: Hopefully this lesson will be taken to heart not only by Russian officials, but also by their counterparts in other states that arm or are considering arming non-state actors– including Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Turkey, the EU, the U.S and many, many others..." The US should take the lead in this regard... 1 Like |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by HolyHolla(m): 4:18pm On Jul 25, 2014 |
Nairaminted, why do you need to always argue from position of falacies? Can you indicate anywhere where I have stated a "...stance of assuredness that the rebels indeed were responsible for the downing of MH17..."? Must you always fabricate to prove your points? |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by NairaMinted: 4:50pm On Jul 25, 2014 |
HolyHolla: Nairaminted, why do you need to always argue from position of falacies? Can you indicate anywhere where I have stated a "...stance of assuredness that the rebels indeed were responsible for the downing of MH17..."? Must you always fabricate to prove your points? Hmmmmm....Perhaps because you posted this: HolyHolla: and then this: HolyHolla: More evidences linking pro-Russian separatists to the downing of Malasian airline. No vex o oga if you feel I "fabricated" your opinion. Truly, no vex... But then again, you nitpick what to respond to....... I think I will just post my views and news articles and quietly allow whoever is reading to digest, investigate and arrive at their own conclusions rather than "arguing" |
| Re: Malaysian Passenger Plane Shot Down In Donetsk By Ground To Air Missile by HolyHolla(m): 5:52pm On Jul 25, 2014 |
Well then, Nairaminted. It's my bad to say, "I believe...", perhaps carried away in argumentation against your 'conclusive evidences' justifying claims of western culpability, and your incessant initiation of false flag and conspiracy theories. I admit that error. But my subsequent posts suggest more of waiting to get all facts right before concluding. Your second reference however is just an 'evidence' put forward by others which I posted to balance up your side, not a conclusion by me. In any case, my posts from now will even center more on critiques of western methods, and their past complicity in similar disasters, just as I will not spare the Russians and their protege separatists if I have more reason to believe they may have been culpable in the matter. I have already done a post in which in The Diplomat, someone analysed a more realistic critique of western conclusions and sought a benefit of doubt to Russian direct involvement. (ref. thediplomat.com/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-what-if-russia-wasnt-involved/ ). That is the way I believe a truly independent observer should think, question inconclusive argumentations and give others the leverage to think for themselves and not necessarily jumping into conclusions in support of any side. That amounts to nothing but propaganda. If you have followed my posts in the past, that has always been my personal style and never do I stand in dogmatic support of any side. I believe that we are all involved in academic discourse that will permit readers to make up their own minds, not propaganda in support of any myopic opinion(s). I just read another viewpoint in which the US was evidently culpable in similar incident in the past and was going to share when I saw your reply to my last post to you. Hoping that I'm not giving you the poetic licence to use it as a booster to your false flag and conspiracy thories, I post; enjoy it! www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/the_vincennes_downing_of_iran_air_flight_655_the_united_states_tried_to.html "America’s Flight 17 - The time the United States blew up a passenger plane—and tried to cover it up. ByFred Kaplan Fury and frustration still mount over the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and justly so. But before accusing Russian President Vladimir Putin of war crimes or dismissing the entire episode as a tragic fluke, it’s worth looking back at another doomed passenger plane—Iran Air Flight 655—shot down on July 3, 1988, not by some scruffy rebel on contested soil but by a U.S. Navy captain in command of an Aegis-class cruiser called the Vincennes. Fred Kaplan is the author of The Insurgents: David Petraeus and the Plot to Change the American Way of War and 1959: The Year Everything Changed. A quarter-century later, the Vincennesis almost completely forgotten, but it still ranks as the world’s seventh deadliest air disaster (Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is the sixth) and one of the Pentagon’s most inexcusable disgraces. In several ways, the two calamities are similar. The Malaysian Boeing 777 wandered into a messy civil war in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border; the Iranian Airbus A300 wandered into a naval skirmish—one of many clashes in the ongoing “Tanker War” (another forgotten conflict)—in the Strait of Hormuz. The likely pro-Russia rebel thought that he was shooting at a Ukrainian military-transport plane; the U.S. Navy captain, Will Rogers III, mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet. The Russian SA-11 surface-to-air missile that downed the Malaysian plane killed 298 passengers, including 80 children; the American SM-2 surface-to-air missile that downed the Iranian plane killed 290 passengers, including 66 children. After last week’s incident, Russian officials told various lies to cover up their culpability and blamed the Ukrainian government; after the 1988 incident, American officials told various lies and blamed the Iranian pilot. Not until eight years later did the U.S. government compensate the victims’ families, and even then expressed “deep regret,” not an apology. As the Boston Globe’s defense correspondent at the time, I reported on the Vincennesshoot-down, and I have gone back over my clips, chronicling the official lies and misstatements as they unraveled. Here’s the truly dismaying part of the story. On Aug. 19, 1988, nearly seven weeks after the event, the Pentagon issued a 53-page report on the incident. Though the text didn’t say so directly, it found that nearly all the initial details about the shoot-down—the “facts” that senior officials cited to put all the blame on Iran Air’s pilot—were wrong. And yet the August report still concluded that the captain and all the other Vincennes officers acted properly. For example, on July 3, at the first Pentagon press conference on the incident, Adm. William Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the Iranian plane had been flying at 9,000 feet and descending at a “high speed” of 450 knots, “headed directly” for the Vincennes . In fact, however, the Aug. 19 report—written by Rear Adm. William Fogarty of U.S. Central Command—concluded (from computer tapes found inside the ship’s combat information center) that the plane was “ascending through 12,000 feet” at the much slower speed of 380 knots. “At no time” did the Airbus “actually descend in altitude,” the report stated. When I pointed out this discrepancy at the press conference where the report was handed out, Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci waved me away and said, “It’s really questionable whether a different reading would have affected the judgment” to shoot down the plane. (I still find this astonishing.) There were other equally disturbing discrepancies between Crowe’s July 3 press conference (which struck me as suspicious even at the time) and Fogarty’s Aug. 19 report. Crowe had said the plane was flying “outside the prescribed commercial air route”; the report said it was flying “within the established air route.” Crowe had said the plane’s transponder was “squawking” a code over the “Mode 2” military channel; the report stated that it was squawking over the “Mode 3” civilian channel. Crowe had said the Vincennesissued several warnings; the report confirmed this, but noted, “Due to heavy pilot workload during take-off and climb-out, and the requirement to communicate with” two air traffic control centers, the pilot “probably was not monitoring” the international air-distress channel. Adm. George B. Crist, head of U.S. Central Command, issued a “non-punitive letter of censure” to the ship’s anti–air warfare officer, but Secretary of Defense Carlucci withdrew the letter. Not only that, but two years later, Capt. Rogers was issued the Legion of Merit “for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service” as the Vincennes ’ commander “from April 1987 to May 1989.”" |
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