WinsomeX:
@nannymcphee,

I have two questions for you and I want you to believe me that they are not meant to spite you.

1. Are you still a member of Christ Embassy?

2. If you are, can you explain why you are still a member of that church seeing that your views are at variance with theirs?

Thanks in advance.

Hello Drummaboy, No Oyakhilome or CEC headlines lately huh?

Apparently, the stance of mbaemeka, gombs et al here, is that:

The riches of Christ = Material wealth/Prosperity aka Lots of money, Affluence
Correct me if I perceive y'all wrong.

Out of curiousity, I decided to do a word search for 'riches' in the New Testament.
Here are a few excerpts and a few thoughts appended to them.

'And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.' Mark 4:19
So riches can be deceitful? How then do we escape this deceitfulness and the unfruitfulness that results from the lust for riches thereof? Before someone hurriedly suggests that the 'riches of Christ' or the 'riches that Christ gives' (as defined by the above mentioned) pose no such threat, also explain why Jesus while on earth never said anything about these riches? And why he disapproved so much of the quest for more money and worldly affluence all through His ministry?

'Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;' 1 Timothy 6:17
If God's intention is to make EVERYONE rich unconditionally, why would He tempt (if He does tempt) us with riches that are uncertain and can cause us to be highminded - a condition He doesn't want us to be in?

'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;' Ephesians 3:8
So Paul's ministry to the Gentiles was only about raising their awareness of the extent of affluence they were entitled to by believing in Christ, as evident in this statement?

'Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.' Hebrews 11:26
So reproaches can be riches too? How come nobody is aspiring to enter into and relish or languish in these riches as well?

Honest answers only, please.

Ooops, almost forgot this part;
'But godliness with contentment is great gain.
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.' 1 Timothy 6:6-10
At least, this is an explicit teaching on riches aka money. I think all the bases are covered. The Bible encourages diligence. If lots of money accrue to you thereby, all's well and good. But should it be the motive or the end of life especially when by God's wisdom you are able to with contentment, use what you earn to meet our daily needs, without unnecessary waste?

^^^^

You are wrong. God is not trying to make anyone rich. We inherited riches when we came into Christ. Btw riches doesn't only mean material prosperity. The inheritance is a total package including health, enlightenment, wisdom, well-being etc.

nannymcphee:


Really!!! You think the true riches the bible was talking about is material acquisition

You are misunderstanding my posts (hopefully unintentionally). True riches includes material acquisition but it is not limited to it. What stands anything out- whether health, wealth, wisdom etc. to be true is if derived from God. That's all I have said.

The verses up there has nothing to do with material prosperity

Really? Maybe we should examine that verse well so you can understand my position a little better. Revelations 3

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy unclothedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Jesus is saying to the church at Laodicia that their works are Lukewarm because they are inbetween serving him and attributing all their achievements to themselves i.e like saying I believe God but I can prosper without him. Jesus says it is lukewarm because a christian should be fully in God and depend on him FOR ALL thereby making them Cold, or you can be a sinner and depend fully on the system of the world to succeed and be therefore Hot. But these group of people were mixing it kinda like *coughs* some Christians on here.

The church was RICH, INCREASED IN GOODS and HAVING NEED OF NOTHING or so they thought, but in the Lord's eye because they did not acquire it by him they were wretched, miserable, POOR, blind etc. Then he counseled them to buy from him gold tried by fire. What is gold tried by fire in the scriptures? FAITH

1 Peter 1:7King James Version (KJV)
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

That's why he said they should have faith in him (buy gold tried by fire from him) so that they would truly be rich, meaning Jesus doesn't regard Bill Gates as rich nor will he regard any christian that chooses to prosper away from God's word as one. So those who try to compare Christian prosperity to worldy prosperity and even claim they are the same, should guess again.

you folks keep saying the the poor Christian is in that state because of choice or lack of knowledge yet you can't show where it was stated in the NT

Poverty out of choice is clearly taught in the bible. Paul was "poor" by choice, yet the gospel he preached made many rich.

2 Corinthians 6:10King James Version (KJV)
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Poverty by lack of knowledge is very NT too

Hosea 4:6King James Version (KJV)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:

I know you would say this is the OT but I would ask only one question: Who are God's people today: Israel by the flesh or Israel by the spirit? Also take note that God himself said "MY people". So it is possible for God's children to still be destroyed and suffer because of a lack of knowledge and that knowledge can be in the area of their finances, health, marital life etc.

Paul acknowledged the poor & nowhere did he prescribe that they give so that they will have

Please read this slowly. It is from Philippians 2.

17 Not that I seek or am eager for [your] gift, but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit [the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account].

Paul is saying he is not so much interested in the money that they gave to him. He is eager for the HARVEST OF BLESSINGS that is accumulating to their accounts. This harvest of blessings includes material prosperity and Paul has told us why he is certain to see it in their lives. It is because they sowed it into his life, they gave it to him. Look at this:

Psalm 126:6Amplified Bible (AMP)
6 He who goes forth bearing seed and weeping [at needing his precious supply of grain for sowing] shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

The bible clearly shows that anyone who sows any form of seeds while weeping (because it is a sacrifice) will DOUBTLESS come back with his HARVEST. DOUBTLESS means WITHOUT A DOUBT. Just in case someone didn't understand and I didn't say it- the Bible clearly says so.

No one lacked because those that had gave, who were these that lacked prior to the giving? Weren't they Christians? Do you find the apostles teaching these folks that lack was bad

Sister, those that lacked prior to the giving were poor people who newly became christians. Same way someone who Just gave his heart to christ can come in and start small (probably still making mistakes). As long as he keeps renewing his mind by the word he would grow. As per whether lack is bad you tell me. Lack out of penury is bad. If you are to lack let it be out of your own volition or a sacrifice you made to help someone or to meet someone's need. A brother was stealing in the church in Ephesus. Why did he steal if not that he was conscious of a lack? Remember this brother was already a christian and a member of Paul's church!

What about the widows that were neglected that led to the office of deacons? Why did they need the ministration if they had? Do you find the apostles teaching them on how it's their right to have becos Christ died for them

The early church wasn't perfect ma. At this point they didn't even know Gentiles would be called into the fold let alone what the full inheritance was. When Paul came on the scene he even recommended that only Old widows should be fed. He instructed the younger ones to get remarried and get a means of livelihood to cater to their own personal needs and stop bothering the church. You tell me, a christian that has any means of livelihood and meets all the provisions of say Psalms 1:1-3, will such a one not prosper? Did Isaac not begin average and then prosper?

See how lengthy I made my post just so you would see that the gospel is entire and not just about any isolated portions. I hope you noticed that no man alive wrote these things but by men of God who were led by the Holy spirit to do so. I only rightly divided it.

A Christian is as likely to be rich or get rich and prosper materially as the next Budhist/Muslim. Only spiritually does he exceed others. This is why it is reckless to dangle materialism or health to prospective believer or ignorant believers. You set them up for disappointment and then shift the blame by telling them they lack faith,or they are actually prosperous only that somewhat the prosperity has been released in the spiritual realm and it will manifest in due time and such other retarded excuses

WinsomeX:
@nannymcphee,

I have two questions for you and I want you to believe me that they are not meant to spite you.

1. Are you still a member of Christ Embassy?

2. If you are, can you explain why you are still a member of that church seeing that your views are at variance with theirs?

Thanks in advance.

Yes I'm still a member but I'm biding my time to leave

why am I still there?

the Christian growth is in phases, before joining CE, I had already developed the habit of reading books by Pentecostals & after joining, the practiced continued so this helped me put the CE teaching in balance, but at the same time seeds were being sown as a result of these teachings from other ministers(books/messages)

At the fullness of time, questions began to arise in my heart & I began to put away some practices(all this I will attribute to the seeds I referred to)

but the WOF thread triggered the full realization of the wrong practices, you will notice I asked loads of questions & did more study, I'm still studying on those issues till now

The above events took place within a span of 11yrs

I don't want to leave now becos I haven't figured where to go now, everywhere seems to have an aspect they have missed (I now understand why certain folks have stopped going to church)

So I'll bide my time & decide where to go after careful study of the intended place of worship

I know the likes of Gombs, mbaemeka etc will not turn around now but I know seeds are being sowed in their hearts(when will they bear fruits, that I can't tell & I hope it doesn't happen too late)

I only engage them because in so doing peradventure they might go study from The bible what God has to say about these things

Most of what they say here isn't what they studied from the bible but what they have been taught by their pastors & a lot don't bother checking the scriptures even if & when they check its still interpreted from that same view, so at the end of the day, no difference

Why my case is slightly different is because I listened to other ministers & this availed me the opportunity to view things in different perspective

nannymcphee:


Yes I'm still a member but I'm biding my time to leave

why am I still there?

the Christian growth is in phases, before joining CE, I had already developed the habit of reading books by Pentecostals & after joining, the practiced continued so this helped me put the CE teaching in balance, but at the same time seeds were being sown as a result of these teachings from other ministers(books/messages)

At the fullness of time, questions began to arise in my heart & I began to put away some practices(all this I will attribute to the seeds I referred to)

but the WOF thread triggered the full realization of the wrong practices, you will notice I asked loads of questions & did more study, I'm still studying on those issues till now

The above events took place within a span of 11yrs

I don't want to leave now becos I haven't figured where to go now, everywhere seems to have an aspect they have missed (I now understand why certain folks have stopped going to church)

So I'll bide my time & decide where to go after careful study of the intended place of worship

Thank you very much ma. I have no further questions.

I already know the response of Gombs & co to what I have written, I know how the average CE member think

if you are not in CE, there are certain things you won't understand, firstly you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station

Hence the one angular view of interpreting scriptures

secondly pastor Chris says that the church isn't a democracy so if you are not ok with the ways thing are being run, you are free to leave(so no one is being held against his/her wishes

There are other things that I can't write here cos I don't believe in washing one's dirty laundry outside

Do I have any regret of being a member of CE, no I don't

The only way you don't get burnt in CE, is if you know your left from right & keep things in balance

christemmbassey:
what they preach is fraud, it can not stand d test of time. Why their Nigerian counterparts appears to be succeeding is bc naija sustains fraud, but its a matter of time.

Thank you. Exactly my thoughts.

Most of the reports I have read about 'prosperity preachers' have shown that majority of them are not good steward of money. They spend money lavishingly on baseless things, yet they continue to teach their members to 'sow' in order to be debt free. Whilst they are been declared bankrupt and yet some people will see all these atrocities and still accept 'prosperity gospel'.

No wonder their ministeries cannot provide analysis of how the various contributions they received are accounted for - their favorite slogan is always, "the money belongs to God".

Why is it that only the 'prosperity preachers' and their few cronies get all the prosperity and wealth, whilst their members are still struggling to make ends meet? Does this mean that the members don't have enough faith to 'name it and claim it' to get the desired wealth.

nannymcphee:
I already know the response of Gombs & co to what I have written, I know how the average CE member think

if you are not in CE, there are certain things you won't understand, firstly you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station

Hence the one angular view of interpreting scriptures

secondly pastor Chris says that the church isn't a democracy so if you are not ok with the ways thing are being run, you are free to leave(so no one is being held against his/her wishes

There are other things that I can't write here cos I don't believe in washing one's dirty laundry outside

Do I have any regret of being a member of CE, no I don't

The only way you don't get burnt in CE, is if you know your left from right & keep things in balance

God bless you my sister, a time is coming where every christian home will be a church, for now, it appears there is no 'portable' church for a sincere believe, ''for all seekest their own, none seekest Chsist's''.

nannymcphee:


Really!!! You think the true riches the bible was talking about is material acquisition

The verses up there has nothing to do with material prosperity

you folks keep saying the the poor Christian is in that state because of choice or lack of knowledge yet you can't show where it was stated in the NT

Paul acknowledged the poor & nowhere did he prescribe that they give so that they will have

The saints of old sold all they had & laid it at the apostles feet & no one lacked among them

No one lacked because those that had gave, who were these that lacked prior to the giving? Weren't they Christians? Do you find the apostles teaching these folks that lack was bad

What about the widows that were neglected that led to the office of deacons? Why did they need the ministration if they had? Do you find the apostles teaching them on how it's their right to have becos Christ died for them

I'd respond soon... meanwhile, you've not stated how or in what ways God fund His work!

nannymcphee:


Yes I'm still a member but I'm biding my time to leave

why am I still there?

the Christian growth is in phases, before joining CE, I had already developed the habit of reading books by Pentecostals & after joining, the practiced continued so this helped me put the CE teaching in balance, but at the same time seeds were being sown as a result of these teachings from other ministers(books/messages)

At the fullness of time, questions began to arise in my heart & I began to put away some practices(all this I will attribute to the seeds I referred to)

but the WOF thread triggered the full realization of the wrong practices, you will notice I asked loads of questions & did more study, I'm still studying on those issues till now

The above events took place within a span of 11yrs

I don't want to leave now becos I haven't figured where to go now, everywhere seems to have an aspect they have missed (I now understand why certain folks have stopped going to church)

So I'll bide my time & decide where to go after careful study of the intended place of worship

Bookmarked

Holla me whenever you decided to leave. May I ask who's your Zonal pastor?

nannymcphee:

]I already know the response of Gombs & co to what I have written, I know how the average CE member think

Quit Hallucinating

if you are not in CE, there are certain things you won't understand, firstly you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station

I am forced to call you a liar...a sore one. I once said on this forum that I'm garnished by a fine combination of Kenneth Hagin, Idahosa, T. D. Jakes, Pastor Chris, and E. W. Kenyon.

Pastor Chris has mentioned Hinn, Joel Osteen, Hagin, Yon gi Cho, etc in his messages, how is that a way of discouraging folks from listening to ministeries outside? I listen to Oyedepo, Adeboye, Ibiyomie, Etc.

On loveworld plus and sat, there are other ministers shown there too...why then did you decide to lie ma'am? Meanwhile, if I'm well fed here, and I do like the berean christians, and see that these things are true, why go around looking for another opinion?

Hence the one angular view of interpreting scriptures

You want us to have diversified views of things when we both follow one man as he follows Christ? You are what Paul warned his churches, he said "beware of dogs".

secondly pastor Chris says that the church isn't a democracy so if you are not ok with the ways thing are being run, you are free to leave(so no one is being held against his/her wishes

Beni, some folks didn't like how Paul ran the ministry, they left...if you are planning on leaving, do it quietly. God bless you

There are other things that I can't write here cos I don't believe in washing one's dirty laundry outside

Whatever you say is between you, the devil and your conscience. God would just be watching, as I would.

Do I have any regret of being a member of CE, no I don't

I never will too.

The only way you don't get burnt in CE, is if you know your left from right & keep things in balance

nannymcphee:
I know the likes of Gombs, mbaemeka etc will not turn around now but I know seeds are being sowed in their hearts(when will they bear fruits, that I can't tell & I hope it doesn't happen too late)

I only engage them because in so doing peradventure they might go study from The bible what God has to say about these things

Most of what they say here isn't what they studied from the bible but what they have been taught by their pastors & a lot don't bother checking the scriptures even if & when they check its still interpreted from that same view, so at the end of the day, no difference

Why my case is slightly different is because I listened to other ministers & this availed me the opportunity to view things in different perspective

Ehnnnn, we gree! Carry your studying to another ministry.... Pastor Chris must be a super charlatan then..., he successfully deceived over 20 million folks world wide, and the ones who are studying are on nairaland.com staging a campaign for those in CEC to hear them.

#facinating

Gombs:


Quit Hallucinating



I am forced to call you a liar...a sore one. I once said on this forum that I'm garnished by a fine combination of Kenneth Hagin, Idahosa, T. D. Jakes, Pastor Chris, and E. W. Kenyon.

Pastor Chris has mentioned Hinn, Joel Osteen, Hagin, Yon gi Cho, etc in his messages, how is that a way of discouraging folks from listening to ministeries outside? I listen to Oyedepo, Adeboye, Ibiyomie, Etc.

On loveworld plus and sat, there are other ministers shown there too...why then did you decide to lie ma'am? Meanwhile, if I'm well fed here, and I do like the berean christians, and see that these things are true, why go around looking for another opinion?




You want us to have diversified views of things when we both follow one man as he follows Christ? You are what Paul warned his churches, he said "beware of dogs".




Beni, some folks didn't like how Paul ran the ministry, they left...if you are planning on leaving, do it quietly. God bless you




Whatever you say is between you, the devil and your conscience. God would just be watching, as I would.



I never will too.

bc pesin wan port from CE you wan die, Gombs, b careful o!

Gombs:


May I ask who's your Zonal pastor?

you don't really expect me to divulge this here, by the way, I'm well known by him

I am forced to call you a liar...a sore one. I once said on this forum that I'm garnished by a fine combination of Kenneth Hagin, Idahosa, T. D. Jakes, Pastor Chris, and E. W. Kenyon.

Pastor Chris has mentioned Hinn, Joel Osteen, Hagin, Yon gi Cho, etc in his messages, how is that a way of discouraging folks from listening to ministeries outside? I listen to Oyedepo, Adeboye, Ibiyomie, Etc

you have spent just 5yrs, I don't have to put up my dossier here for you to know who you are dealing with

You call me a liar yet everyone knows CE don't attend other churches program, every CE member will know you ain't telling the truth. Btw don't let your pastor know about the bolded line o

can you publicly tell your members to act upon the above bolded line?

can you ask your pastor a question based on what the ministers you listed in the bolded said?

If you truly listen to names above then it's your personal thing & you cannot publicly say it out

tell your pastor that you told your member to go listen to pastor adeboye's message, pls come & share with the house his response? Can we try this??

I know you're a leader, what's your leadership position ?

On loveworld plus and sat, there are other ministers shown there too...why then did you decide to lie ma'am? Meanwhile, if I'm well fed here, and I do like the berean christians, and see that these things are true, why go around looking for another opinion?

I hope you saw this line

"you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station"

Love world plus & sat aren't they satellite stations

On a fairer note, I'd hav e to leave this thread. It now looks like a face off, and I don't really want to be responsible or be a direct or indirect reason to get someone on a bad side of things. I'm sorry, but it looks like I'm bullying. Not my intention if that's the case.

I've had friends leave CEC and advised me to come over with them...I've always refused. Though some left because of minimal issues like Pastor not siding them in a particular matter or that givings are 'too much'. My friend left because her pastor as she said was 'greedy', but she still misses Pastor Chris' meetings and messages.

Whatever be the reason for folks leaving, whoever was right or wrong isn't material here. If one is going to be better in their Christian life somewhere else, it's a big plus, where issues are is if they aren't.

Nannymcphee, your thread of proponents of touch not my annoited and this is a pointer, if you deem leaving CEC is best for you, for whatever reasons, do so. Thank you for your time.

Signing out!
Peace

Gombs:


Ehnnnn, we gree! Carry your studying to another ministry.... Pastor Chris must be a super charlatan then..., he successfully deceived over 20 million folks world wide, and the ones who are studying are on nairaland.com staging a campaign for those in CEC to hear them.

#facinating

Wow! You must be high on some very cheap wine if you think CE has up to 20 million members.
I don't know how you guys arrive at such ridiculous numbers

Lobeez:

Wow! You must be high on some very cheap wine if you think CE has up to 20 million members.
I don't know how you guys arrive at such ridiculous numbers

Calculate Southern Africa (Zimbabwe, South Africa which is totally taken by BLW, Botswana etc), then Western Africa (Nigeria alone boasts of about 5 million, Ghana, Togo, Benin), then UK...and Western Europe, then North America (Canada, US). I've not mentioned Eastern Africa (Kenya, Uganda, etc), Asia (India), South America (Brazil, Venezuela, etc), Oceania (Australia, New Zealand), and the carribeans.

You really don't have an idea why it's called BLW nation?

Gombs:
On a fairer note, I'd hav e to leave this thread. It now looks like a face off, and I don't really want to be responsible or be a direct or indirect reason to get someone on a bad side of things. I'm sorry, but it looks like I'm bullying. Not my intention if that's the case.

I've had friends leave CEC and advised me to come over with them...I've always refused. Though some left because of minimal issues like Pastor not siding them in a particular matter or that givings are 'too much'. My friend left because her pastor as she said was 'greedy', but she still misses Pastor Chris' meetings and messages.

Whatever be the reason for folks leaving, whoever was right or wrong isn't material here. If one is going to be better in their Christian life somewhere else, it's a big plus, where issues are is if they aren't.

Nannymcphee, your thread of proponents of touch not my annoited and this is a pointer, if you deem leaving CEC is best for you, for whatever reasons, do so. Thank you for your time.

Signing out!
Peace

JUST THINKING

While I do not retract my earlier position on the danger of deceit and our Lord warnings about it, I cannot but marvel at the grace of God that can save a sinner and at the same time keep them safe. This is what I mean: though we must watch against deceit, ultimately it is Jesus that delivers us from every influence of deceit and this process, I am convinced, is lifelong. He is the one building the church not any man.

When I began to study the errors of the prosperity gospel, I believe God witnessed in my heart that I do not know the real depth of the error. So my duty now is to trust the Holy Spirit to continue to teach in the way that I should walk. This is why I understand nannymcphee when she said she is still studying. Truth is that if God shows it all to us at once, we may just die. So he takes his time. I have a good news and a bad news to state to conclude this posting. I will start with the Good News.

Good News: The Good News is Jesus is mighty to save. Like I said before: Christ is able to save and able to keep safe. Therefore even if an individual is born again into the worst of errors, God by his Spirit will lead him out of it little by little. We are saved by grace and not necessarily by doctrine. Nonetheless sound doctrine is God's means of saving a sinner. In the midst of the worst heresies being propagated, God can use the smallest truth to convert a soul.

Bad News: But Jesus told us that narrow is the way that leads to life. Therefore, very few people are saved even at this moment. Why is this so despite the fact that Christ is able to save and keep safe? The reason is that very few places are preaching sound doctrine and very few people are being converted. The vast majority of professing Christians are not saved and are heading to hell.

This is tragedy of the Prosperity Gospel. This gospel is a feel good gospel that glories in number. The main message is salvation from life ills and not salvation from sin. This simple fact renders majority of it's adherents hell bound. The other part is that most churches, including orthodox and Roman Catholics have latched unto the false gospel. Fulfilling scriptures that broad is the way that leads to destruction.

I think the biggest tragedy of the whole prosperity thing is Satan discerning the mighty revival that the evangelical movement could bring the world, came and sowed the seeds of this false gospel into the church. Thus the church has abandoned it calling to set it eyes on things above to begin pursuing things below. The devil knows how mighty our Lord is to save a sinner and he has succeeded in replacing the gospel message with a prosperity message. It is really heart breaking.

For those who desire a thorough understanding into the depth of the rot in the prosperity movement, please see this thread:

www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

trustman:


For starters:


Then this:

Indeed, " God wants believers to be materially wealthy. I see it in my bible". That is the point. Like every doctrine and teaching, there is an abuse, misuse and false teaching concerning that. But to insinuate or blatantly and ignorantly insist that God is not interested in providing for us materially, and then going behind to acquire and even pray for anything material is a delusion of the spirit, soul and body.

Image123:

Indeed, " God wants believers to be materially wealthy. I see it in my bible". That is the point. Like every doctrine and teaching, there is an abuse, misuse and false teaching concerning that. But to insinuate or blatantly and ignorantly insist that God is not interested in providing for us materially, and then going behind to acquire and even pray for anything material is a delusion of the spirit, soul and body.

The error of the Prosperity Gospel is "God wants believers to be materially wealthy". What bible taught you that?

I know. You will quote the Old Testament to me. You, however, refuse to acknowledge that it is "old" and that the covenant we run today is a new one; and in the new nothing is said about God wanting believers to prosper materially.

The prosperity gospel start with a leaven called "God wants believers to be materially wealthy" and eats into the soul of the gospel the Christian believes until he is an unbelieving "believer" bound for hell.

WinsomeX:



Forgive my next statement but it is necessary:

The ministry of the following men in Nigeria: David Oyedepo, Chris Oyakhilome, Enoch Adeboye, and others like them have come to be known as Prosperity Teaching ministries. Among Pentecostals in this country, these men command more than half the following. If, and I am using these word very circumspectly, if the prosperity gospel is a false gospel as many allege, I want readers to know that a great number of so called Christians are heading to hell, along with the Pastors aforementioned.

It will be good for all of us, in the light of Jesus and Paul's words, to know what we believe. What a man preaches is able to save or damn him and his hearers.

Abeg go and sit down jare, who knows if you're the fellow Jesus was warning folks about. Have you ever asked God to provide for you materially?

WinsomeX:


The error of the Prosperity Gospel is "God wants believers to be materially wealthy". What bible taught you that?

I know. You will quote the Old Testament to me. You, however, refuse to acknowledge that it is "old" and that the covenant we run today is a new one; and in the new nothing is said about God wanting believers to prosper materially.

The prosperity gospel start with a leaven called "God wants believers to be materially wealthy" and eats into the soul of the gospel the Christian believes until he is an unbelieving "believer" bound for hell.

If what you mean by prosperity gospel includes that God blesses and heals today, and wills so. Yes, the bible teaches so. Philippians 4:19 for instance is not shy or afraid of material supply, neither is the Lord's prayer.

nannymcphee:
I know the likes of Gombs, mbaemeka etc will not turn around now but I know seeds are being sowed in their hearts(when will they bear fruits, that I can't tell & I hope it doesn't happen too late)

I only engage them because in so doing peradventure they might go study from The bible what God has to say about these things

Most of what they say here isn't what they studied from the bible but what they have been taught by their pastors & a lot don't bother checking the scriptures even if & when they check its still interpreted from that same view, so at the end of the day, no difference

Why my case is slightly different is because I listened to other ministers & this availed me the opportunity to view things in different perspective

This is an unfair statement to make about me but I do not hold it against you. My knowledge of scripture would not be in doubt to those that have engaged me thus far. I always do my own personal study on some things and where I lack understanding I ask the Holy spirit to help and I discuss it with many other christians to see different perspectives as well. Most of the people I discuss with have been in ministry since the 80s when it all started, so you can be sure I know as much as you concerning where and how it started.

Concerning other pastors I have listened to a handful and God's spirit helps me detect wheat from chaff. I also try to stay in touch with those who believe what I do. It should not come as an aberration. Paul kept teaching about the singularity of mind and purpose. It is what causes great changes to happen quickly. God said concerning the Tower of Babel that if he didn't give each man a different language, there would be nothing men would try to achieve in unity that they would not.

It seems you would soon be a wife and therefore a mother. How would you like it if your kids went to different neighbour's houses to eat food only to come home each time to tell you "so and so does not use thyme" and "so and so uses meat to prepare beans we don't like the way you prepare your own?". Well, that is how it is in the church. After all, Hemogenes and Alexander who were former members of Paul's church went around telling people that there was no resurrection. A teaching that was in total deviance from what Paul taught and he reserved no fine words for them. I have heard Pastor Chris say he once gave the pulpit to a particular lady (from another ministry) to preach one day and she (in between her sermon) said "I am still one of those who believes that women should not be wearing trousers in the church". That sort of mixture will definitely confuse God's children further because that is not what he teaches from his own understanding of the bible. Paul called it a bewitchment to the Galatians and he blamed it on this mixture of teachings. One man says we are saved by only grace through faith while another man says we have to mix it with the law or else it is not true salvation. That's why today CE is very cautious about who is invited to teach and such a person must really be loaded (spiritually and scripturally) because we definitely do not come behind in that regard.

If God is leading you somewhere else that is fine and commendable. Just make sure he is the one doing so and not your own predilections or grievances. Pastors Omar Pela and Sam Amaga were very close to Reverend Chris Oyakhilome and members of the church but God led them to start their own ministries. I have attended House of Grace (Omar Pela's) for a particular programme and he had very nice things to say about him that if you are not of the spirit, you would think he was Hero-worshiping him.The man knows a gift when he sees one and he honors it as instructed by the holy scriptures.

Image123:

Abeg go and sit down jare, who knows if you're the fellow Jesus was warning folks about. Have you ever asked God to provide for you materially?

Image123:

If what you mean by prosperity gospel includes that God blesses and heals today, and wills so. Yes, the bible teaches so. Philippians 4:19 for instance is not shy or afraid of material supply, neither is the Lord's prayer.

You have sounded here like a true protege of a prosperity church. You have not disappointed at all. If at your level you still cannot tell whom Christ was referring to in Matthew 24, you are part of the deceived.

Phillipians 4:19 was a prayer; a response to a sacrificial work of love in meeting the apostles needs. It was not "Holy Ghost Night" or "Night of Bliss" or Shiloh. It was not one man bellowing at the top of his voice at a congregation who are screaming Amen, claiming prophetic blessings.

The leading errors of Prosperity Gospellers and their children is taking one scripture out of context and building a doctrine and practice out of it. Go to Philippians 4 and find out, in context, the real reason for Paul's prayers. Incidentally, in Philippians 3, Paul left a word for the prosperity preacher:

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

I am wondering if Paul did not know that Christians will ask God to provide for their material needs when he wrote the above.

Image123:


Indeed, " God wants believers to be materially wealthy. I see it in my bible". That is the point. Like every doctrine and teaching, there is an abuse, misuse and false teaching concerning that. But to insinuate or blatantly and ignorantly insist that God is not interested in providing for us materially, and then going behind to acquire and even pray for anything material is a delusion of the spirit, soul and body.

Bankruptcy of the prosperity gospel. 

True biblical prosperity does not necessarily include monetary/financial wealth. 

"13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
15 And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
- Luke 16: 13-15

Many today who are lovers of money and are like the Pharisees behave like them - they ridicule others who insist on the same position that Jesus held. 

The WoF movement and devotees overemphasize the place of money in the life of the believer. However, as Luke 16:15b states:
"For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."

The WoF teachings, (including the 'Prosperity gospel', whether that name is denied by their devotees on this thread or not), are built on faulty application of scripture and in many instances wrong view of what Christianity is all about. 

That is why scripture is usually twisted by them to suit what they want it to say. That is why also they can choose to interpret words the way they like, particularly to 'support' their stance at any point in time. 

One moment it can be 'God wants all to be rich financially!' the next moment that can turn to 'Riches can be in different dimensions!'. This minute they can say 'Jesus was very rich financially and even had to have a treasurer' and the next one it can be 'Jesus had to be poor to make us rich'. This way when a person queries one statement they quickly present the second as a proof that the questioner is wrong, pushing the fault always on others rather than themselves. When things are too 'hot' for them to handle they 'run for cover'. 

They claim to have, and are enamoured by, a 'revelation' knowledge on issues that even the Apostles who were given the blueprint for the church age did not have. They are the ones who have attained 'perfection' which the apostles and early church didn't achieve. 

It obviously takes a lot for a person to change a long-held view about a thing, particularly religion or spiritual things. 
But honesty demands that anyone who names the name of Christ will carefully examine whatever is presented to him in the light of the foundation already laid by the Apostles, rather than by a 'new' knowledge.

trustman:

That is why scripture is usually twisted by them to suit what they want it to say. That is why also they can choose to interpret words the way they like, particularly to 'support' their stance at any point in time.

One moment it can be 'God wants all to be rich financially!' the next moment that can turn to 'Riches can be in different dimensions!'. This minute they can say 'Jesus was very rich financially and even had to have a treasurer' and the next one it can be 'Jesus had to be poor to make us rich'. This way when a person queries one statement they quickly present the second as a proof that the questioner is wrong, pushing the fault always on others rather than themselves. When things are too 'hot' for them to handle they 'run for cover'.

I'm with you on this, Gombs said the full church at Ephesus whom Christ died for(gave divine health) had issues with their water that caused them to be ill

on other thread, he will have you believe that the Christian cannot be sick because he has the life of God, invariably the Christian who is sick is as a result of lack of faith or insufficient knowledge or matter of choice again as applicable to the poverty


when presented with the case of trophimus, he said

The Apostles could not do everything, or they did not dispense miraculous gifts upon all occasions, lest more should be ascribed to them than was right

Other times he believes a Christian can do all things & at other times he lays the blame on the sick saying they didn't have faith but in this case, Paul couldnt

he forgot that Paul wasnt the focus but trophimus(in his own word, a Christian who ought not to be sick based on his inheritance in Christ) so what happened to trophimus faith?

others will interpret the situation to say that, if you overwork your self without appropriate rest, you will break down i.e trophimus got sick because of the work load & inadequate rest same with Epaphroditus

Mbaemeka says the Christian taxi driver upon learning about his inheritance wouldn't be one for too long, when challenged with what's wrong in being a taxi driver, they suddenly turned around to say that there is honor in all labor

Wonders shall never cease

^^^ Welcome to Nairaland Word of Faith confused thinking.

Truth is that the WoF seeks to redefine Christianity. They make a priority what the bible does not: wealth. So that to justify such warped thinking Image123 wants to know if I pray for material blessing. As if my doing so justifies prosperity teaching.

They also make little of the matter of sin, which scripture prioritize. They are actually confused in the position to take on it. While the likes of mbaemeka are of the COZA kind of grace where no matter what your sin, you cannot loose your salvation and no Christian who works a miracle can be cast in hell; Joagbaje and Gombs disagree with him. They take the traditional Pentecostal arminian view that Christians can loose their salvation. Then we have Image123 who has no position at all than to troll any thread that is critical of Bishop Oyedepo.

I remind my readers of Jesus' warning in Matthew 24, do not let anyone deceive you.

Nannymcphee,

I would appreciate it if you asked for clarification so as not to misconstrue anything I have to say like some people do. I am affording you such courtesy because you do not seem to be on any side but merely expressing yourself based on what you think is right.

Yes, I said someone can begin as a Taxi Driver but as he discovers more of his rights in christ he would prosper as is expected. When you did not understand me I gave you an example of a man I know in the ministry who has such a success story. I have more than 30 odd stories to that effect. If you are looking for scriptural backing for such I have a deluge but I also mentioned one to you in my edited post to your rebuttal of my Revelations 2&3 explanations. The passage of scripture is in Psalms 1:1-3 and the scripture says WHATSOEVER the Godly man does will PROSPER.

The question I should ask you is what does WHATSOEVER mean and how do you relate it to prosperity? Jacob started with a few Cattle here and there till he had more than he could count same way the man who used to drive one taxi now owns more than 2000 cars to his name. That is financial prosperity and it is scriptural.

You are better of knowing exactly what another man believes and then critiquing it than to have a false understanding and then use it to cast aspersions. The people who act that way are the same one's that claimed Jesus was a cannibal because he told them to eat his flesh. They were not in his fold. Be wise.