Another Nigerians-bashing thread!!!

You guys give it up okay?

@mekk
yes but dyu think if only 20% of nigerians stood up and confronted the government,they wouldnt back down?even the police and armed forces willstage a mutiny against their leaders because we are all in the same boat.
@asha80
EXACTLY!!!
we want nigeria to be like china,but we are not ready to sacrifice what the chinese did to get there neither are we as patriotic as the average chinese or indian
@auwal87
you are still saying the same thing, you want them to die for themselves,are you ready to do the dying for yourself side by side with these nigerians?
yes but are the nigerians abroad not part and parcel of the country??
if nigeria becomes a china or uk or u.s.a tmorro,will the nigerian diasporans not dust their nigerian passport and move back home to nigeria?
if they want to have a properly run nigeria like nigerians at home then we should be ready and patriotic enough to do what the chinese diasporans did, move back to nigeria and do our best for a better nigeria simple!!

lucabrasi:

@auwal87
you are still saying the same thing, you want them to die for themselves,are you ready to do the dying for yourself side by side with these nigerians?
yes but are the nigerians abroad not part and parcel of the country??
if nigeria becomes a china or uk or USA tmorro,will the nigerian diasporans not dust their nigerian passport and move back home to nigeria?
if they want to have a properly run nigeria like nigerians at home then we should be ready and patriotic enough to do what the chinese diasporans did, move back to nigeria and do our best for a better nigeria simple!!

So, now you are expecting all Nigerians abroad to come to Nigeria before Nigeria will get better, if that is the case, hmm, For ever will it be better. Nigeria becomes China, UK, USA? Please stop ageing your Keyboard, this will never ever happen, please stop!

lucabrasi:

@mekk
[b]yes but dyu think if only 20% of nigerians stood up and confronted the government,they wouldnt back down?[/b]even the police and armed forces willstage a mutiny against their leaders because we are all in the same boat.
@asha80
EXACTLY!!!
we want nigeria to be like china,but we are not ready to sacrifice what the chinese did to get there neither are we as patriotic as the average chinese or indian
@auwal87
you are still saying the same thing, you want them to die for themselves,are you ready to do the dying for yourself side by side with these nigerians?
yes but are the nigerians abroad not part and parcel of the country??
if nigeria becomes a china or uk or USA tmorro,will the nigerian diasporans not dust their nigerian passport and move back home to nigeria?
if they want to have a properly run nigeria like nigerians at home then we should be ready and patriotic enough to do what the chinese diasporans did, move back to nigeria and do our best for a better nigeria simple!!

I absolutely agree.

auwal87:

How would a person abroad come back when Nigerians are not yet ready for the change? He will only come back and continue to suffer together with other Nigerians. But if only he knew that Yes! Now Nigerians are ready for the change, of course he will be glad to Join them.

Absolute hypocracy and cowardice. Do you think everyone is like you? slowpoke.

1 - A Nigerian would hardly keep his promise (must add days, weeks, or even months to his promise)
2 - A Nigerian always tell lies and spread rumours across everywhere
3 - A Nigerian would hardly be trusted (esp with Money)
4 - A Nigerian always try as much as possible to cheat (In exam, in business, in anything)

This is not the first time I'll hear this. . . .I have to agree with number 1-3

.

auwal87:

So, now you are expecting all Nigerians abroad to come to Nigeria before Nigeria will get better, if that is the case, hmm, For ever will it be better. Nigeria becomes China, UK, USA? Please stop ageing your Keyboard, this will never ever happen, please stop!

im not expecting all nigerians to go back to nigeria,but a lot of them, because anyone actually waiting abroad for nigerians in nigeria to cleanse the country before they ll come back home is living in a mythical eldorado

Are Nigerians abroad really to blame for the situation the country remains in? Majority of the Chinese people abroad did not, I repeat, did not flock back home for china to become the china we know today. What is with the idea that Nigerians abroad are somewhat to blame for the condition of living in the country today? Are the over 140 million Nigerians in Nigeria today incapable of thinking and pushing for change? Are they idiots? Why is there this notion that once a citizen leaves the country, most with no help from the government, suddenly need to bear the burden of putting the country right?

A man who has worked as a bricklayer for over 20 years, finds himself in, say Benin republic and suddenly the burden to fix a nation that was filled with people who do not seem to want to change the status quo is suddenly on him? He has to come back to die for the nation for things to get better for those who stayed back? Why?

that is totally wrong,the chinese flew back home to china in massive numbers leaving behind very good paying jobs in australia,united states europe e.t.c to take up less paying jobs and work in a repressive communist country,some living in single rooms with their families.go google or read the history of the beginning of communism or books like zhisui li's private life of chairman mao(he was one of the returning chinese diasporans)

while nigerians abroad are not to blame for the situation on ground,they also share a part of the blame same as nigerians based in nigeria, it is easy to urge dissillutioned nigerians on, some of who have never seen governance any different to what is obtained in nigeria ,who have become cynics and lost faith in nigeria either because of repeated dissappointments by leaders,endemic and systemic corruption e.t.c
nigerians abroad have seen things done differently in their respective united states and united kingdom e.t.c and so have an idea as to how far nigeria could grow with good governance,secondly looking at china,india diasporans have been the catalyst to actually stimulate the change for any sort of revolution for change

Lucabrasi and Kobojunkie

Frankly, I think both of you are on different sides of the same track,
but nonetheless on the wrong track.

You both argue for a bottom up development of Nigeria, a movement
of the masses to emancipate themselves. Where you both depart is
on which of the masses(a bifurcation entirely of both your doing in relation
to this argument) should be at the vanguard of such a change.
Lucabrasi thinks the diaspora should do a lot more as he contests the
Chinese did, while Kobojunkie is all out for local mass self mobilisation.

Both your arguments would be validated, if a masses-influenced explanation
of development can be substantiated. And even the anecdotal evidence does not
support such a view of development.

Take for example China. I do not understand how the economic story is even fractionally
explainable from a diasporic perspective. It is more than mere coincidence that the rapid
economic develpment in China had its genesis in the general reorientation of the leadership
in China after Mao's death and the emergence of Deng Xiaoping as leader.

The disingenuity of China as an example is further compounded when you consider the nature of politics
in China, as it is dominated by the Communist party. Power primarily lies in the hands of a small cadre who
direct economic policy, to disastrous effect under Mao and to miraculous proportions since Mao. If anything,
the Chinese case highlights the helplessness of the so called masses in the face of a recalcitrant elite.

So, any solutions pertaining to development must be approached top down in my opinion. . . . .Any suggestions

I

@omitutu
while i understand what you are saying in relation to a top down development i must disagree with your notion of the chinese masses helplessness, remember nigeria has never practised communism which is harder on the citizens but capitalism,you talk about communism concentrating power in the hands of a few and i totally agree with you,but how about oligarchs like we have in nigeria?is the power not concentrated in the hands of a tiny minority?who have caused untold hardships in the country, while i agree that mao was a dictator and caused a lot of famine,deaths e.t.c one thing we cannot take from him which no leader in nigeria has been able to give is that his blueprint led to what china has become now, remember before his death he was aiming to forge a closer relationship with america and distancing himself from u.s.s.r under kruschev and actually went against kruschev criticising him and his policies and praising america and their policies, the point im making here is that we can learn a whole lot from china's politics.

as for your assertion that you do not understand how the economic story is even fractionally explainable from a diasporic perspective,if you check my comments i never made any reference to economics in my calling for more diasporans,after all if we were to look at it in financial times,diasporans send millions of dollars home every day/week/month which has helped the economy in no small measure, my point here is that the diasporans can stimulate and actually wake the cosciousness of nigerians dues to the fact that they have seen a proper government in action and so know the potential of nigeria with good leadership, remember the saying that travelling is knowledge
if what you are asking me is how china can be used as an example in this context,then ill answe that they know the meaning of the word"patriotism"which i still think is the key to getting us up and grabbing our collective destinies in our hands concerning nigeria
lastly i do not agree with you at all that china's economic development started after mao's death, no matter what we think of mao,he rescued china from the clutches of destruction, please go and read what he and most of the revolutionaries went through during the long march and before they won the war, look at the level of loyalty mao could invoke both from the politburo and the entire chines in spite of his dictatorial form of governance,

The reasons you state there about china are some of the reasons why I am against the idea of comparing Nigeria to China and placing the label "PATRIOTISM"  on the chinese.

[size=13pt] 20th century: modern emigration   [/size]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_diaspora


Through most of China's history, strict controls prevented large numbers of people from leaving the country. In modern times, however, periodically some have been allowed to leave for various reasons. For example, in the early 1960s, about 100,000 people were allowed to enter Hong Kong. In the late 1970s, vigilance against illegal migration to Hong Kong was again relaxed somewhat. Perhaps as many as 200,000 reached Hong Kong in 1979, but in 1980 authorities on both sides resumed concerted efforts to reduce the flow.
More liberalized emigration policies enacted in the 1980s facilitated the legal departure of increasing numbers of Chinese who joined their overseas Chinese relatives and friends. The Four Modernizations program, which required access of Chinese students and scholars, particularly scientists, to foreign education and research institutions, brought about increased contact with the outside world, particularly the industrialized nations. Thus, as China moved toward the twenty-first century, the diverse resources and immense population that it had committed to a comprehensive process of modernization became ever more important.
In 1983, emigration restrictions were eased as a result in part of the economic open-door policy. In 1984, more than 11,500 business visas were issued to Chinese citizens, and in 1985, approximately 15,000 Chinese scholars and students were in the United States alone. Any student who had the economic resources, from whatever source, could apply for permission to study abroad. United States consular offices issued more than 12,500 immigrant visas in 1984, and there were 60,000 Chinese with approved visa petitions in the immigration queue.
Export of labor to foreign countries also increased. The Soviet Union, Iraq, and the Federal Republic of Germany requested 500,000 workers, and as of 1986, China sent 50,000. The signing of the United States-China Consular Convention in 1983 demonstrated the commitment to more liberal emigration policies. The two sides agreed to permit travel for the purpose of family reunification and to facilitate travel for individuals who claim both Chinese and United States citizenship. Emigrating from China remained a complicated and lengthy process, however, mainly because many countries were unwilling or unable to accept the large numbers of people who wished to emigrate. Other difficulties included bureaucratic delays and in some cases a reluctance on the part of Chinese authorities to issue passports and exit permits to individuals making notable contributions to the modernization effort.
The only significant immigration to China has been by the overseas Chinese, who in the years since 1949 have been offered various enticements to return to their homeland. Several million may have done so since 1949. The largest influx came in 1978-79, when about 160,000 to 250,000 ethnic Chinese refugees fled Vietnam for southern China, as relations between the two countries worsened.
Many of these refugees were reportedly settled in state farms on Hainan Island in the South China Sea.

I guess even the chinese in the diaspora needed some pay off before they decided to move back to China back. If that be the way we now define patriotism then why do we stop people from demanding Nigeria make them a worthy offer for them to move back.

im not disputing that with you but i am and have always been talking about chinese emigration during the 1930 s to 1949 up untill the late 1950s, hence my continuous mention of mao,i still repeat without any fear of contradiction that up untill the late 1950s to 60s the chinese were moving back home leaving lucrative jobs and taking up poorly paid jobs and poor accomodation, google these infos and see the conditions of living the early chinese migrants to china during the mao communist govt, i am sure you know wikipedia isnt absolutely accurate neither is it a source of credible literary source because of its accuracy
mao died in 1976 and i cannot attest to conditions after that time though,whats ongoing in china at the moment is a testament to the revival after the death of mao

Every people at one time or another have experienced similar pattern of migration, not excluding Nigeria,but in your many examples you have failed to mention that the reason they left the chinese left the so called ‘lucrative’ jobs was because they were apparently getting deals and offers from their own government. The Government essentially ENTICED them with offers to have caused such a move. If you had bothered to mention that even to this day, the chinese to date still immigrate to other countries in large numbers, then we would at least understand where to look for this so called move back to china by some chinese diasporans.

You can check the resources sited at the end of that piece in wikipedia for more information. I can not say that the development we see today in China has anything to do with the Chinese populace who migrated back to China, but this seems to be what you are pushing at and as the records do show, thousands continue to flow out of china each year, so I am not exactly sure what your message means here if 10's of thousands still move out each year.

Since you need to use the chinese example here, it would follow that you should advocate the Nigerian government offer the Nigerians in diaspora a package as well. This is something I know you are vehemently opposed to. So I do not see how on the one hand you can call for a chinese type move back, by Nigerians in diaspora but are not willing to demand the government design packages to entice the people.

[size=13pt] Chinese Migration Goes Global [/size]

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9437
Peter Kwong
YaleGlobal, 17 July 2007


And perhaps no group has had more visible impact than the 18 million Chinese who have left China since the economic reforms of the late 1970s – just over half of the approximately 35 million Chinese who live outside of China in what has become known as the Chinese diaspora.
Chinese emigrants these days, be it skilled professionals, businessmen or laborers, prefer North America and Western Europe as their destination, but also settle for Argentina, South Africa, Mauritius, Israel, Dubai or the like, countries not previously associated with the notion of Chinese migration – 150 countries in all. In Romania, Chinese immigrants eliminated labor shortages created after some 2 million Romanians emigrated to Spain and Italy after the fall of communism. Chinese women employed in Romanian textile factories are paid US $260 per month – four times more than what they would earn in China, but a sum for which Romanians are no longer willing to work.

The driving force behind Chinese emigration is the monumental demographic shift of its 1.4 billion population induced by China’s rapid economic expansion. Some 200 million people have left homes in rural China for jobs in the cities. The unprecedented influx has created overcrowding, social disorder and downward pressure on wages in the cities, as the Chinese economy, even with impressive double-digit growth, fails to create enough jobs to accommodate all rural migrants. Thus the most ambitious among them see leaving China as an attractive option.
The post-Cold War global migration, however, takes place within the old framework of nation states. While the capital and goods flow freely across national borders to the drumbeat of open markets and free trade, the movement of people is all but free. Ordinary citizens of developed receiving nations are unwilling to accept mass immigration in fear of losing their jobs, clinging onto the concept of national borders as a guarantee against such fears.





But their concerns are not shared by employers, who want to hire immigrants to cut costs and who hope that the force of global migration will weaken national labor movements and labor standards. Thus, although jobs wait for the mobile plucky takers in many nations, unless they are skilled professionals, the immigrants must enter borders illegally or on temporary visas. Chinese emigrants are so motivated that they willingly pay organized crime networks tens of thousands of dollars to be smuggled to their destinations by perilous means, often with tragic consequences. In 2000 British authorities found 58 illegal Chinese immigrants asphyxiated aboard a tomato truck in the port city of Dover.


Governments make repeated attempts to strengthen border controls and beef up criminal sanctions against illegal immigrants and their smugglers, but so long as there is demand for migrant labor, the illicit migration goes on. In fact, legislation that makes migrants more “illegal” only increases their vulnerability, therefore cheaper for the employers to engage. The profits from smuggling also increase. It now costs $30,000 for a Chinese to be smuggled into the UK and $70,000 to the US – roughly double of what it was a little more than a decade ago.
After illegal immigrants enter a country, they have no access to regular labor markets or the benefit of labor-protection laws. Forced underground, Chinese immigrants squeeze into niche trades, usually employed by co-ethnic subcontractors. Because such immigrants work for and alongside fellow Chinese by necessity, not by choice, they become targets for resentment and accusations of sticking to their own. In late 2006 local residents in Tonga – furious that the Chinese businesses recruited Chinese from China instead of employing from the local population – looted and burned more than 30 Chinese-run shops.


Of course, Chinese workers don’t necessarily have common interests with their Chinese bosses. While some 2,000 Chinese entrepreneurs own a quarter of the textile businesses in Prato, Italy, an army of low-wage workers recruited in China works long nights, sweatshop-style, to produce low-cost “Made in Italy” fashions for export to Eastern Europe. In New York City, Chinese restaurant and garment workers frequently wage battles against their co-ethnic employers for abuses such as withholding of back wages and confiscation of service tips. Because American unions refuse to consider them a part of America’s legitimate working class, the workers must fight it alone, without help from the labor authorities. Isolating immigrants and denying them labor protections not only worsens conditions for them, it also contributes to the deterioration of labor standards for all workers. And in the end, none of the measures heretofore taken have deterred immigration.


The disconnect between national policy and the logic of global migration underlines the necessity for governments to work together in finding new ways to protect their citizens’ living standards while guaranteeing immigrants the right to work without undue exploitation. Unfortunately, most politicians are interested in exploiting anti-immigrant sentiments to generate populist support and win elections.


Russia’s Far East region has about 100,000 permanent Chinese residents. Most are merchants, selling clothes, toys and other consumer goods. Since their inflow coincided with the dwindling of Russian population in the region, a belief has taken hold among many Russians that China has adopted a state program of “Moving to the North.” They see the Chinese as a sign of a creeping annexation of Russian territory. Adding to the fears is the fact that China controlled most of that region until the 1850s. President Vladimir Putin plays on this fear when he warns that, if the government does not introduce immigration restrictions, people in Russia’s Far East could soon all speak Chinese – even as his experts agree that Russia needs Chinese labor and resources to develop this region.

Since the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, many conservatives in the US consider China a principal threat to the US and call for military containment, reminiscent of the Cold War era. Periodically, they accuse Chinese Americans of acting as the “fifth column” for China, as when they called for the investigation of Chinese-American contributors to President Bill Clinton’s re-election campaign, suspected of helping the Chinese Communist government channel money to influence US politics.

Despite signs of growing anti-Chinese sentiment in many quarters of the world, the Chinese government remains largely silent. For one, it has no incentive to tamper with the exodus of its citizens, which eases domestic unemployment and reaps the benefits of remittances – to the tune of US $20 billion a year. Secondly, any active involvement could arouse suspicion regarding the loyalty of the overseas Chinese.

But China should not remain a detached spectator of global migration, especially as it grapples with its own problem of illegal immigration from North Korea. As a nation both on the receiving and sending side, perhaps China is uniquely suited to wrestle the issue from the clutches of narrow-minded national politics and place it on the agenda of international forums. With graying populations in northern Europe, Japan and even China and the need for young workers to maintain growth required for social stability, the issue of global migration has assumed urgency for the whole world and deserves timely attention and appropriate multinational treatment.


Peter Kwong is a professor in the Asian American Studies Program of Hunter College and professor of sociology with the City University of New York.

I know you have suddenly developed a fear of all things wikipedia but do take a look a the picture behind the development of china in this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China#1949-1980

This one has over a hundred references for you to peruse and may be look through in your spare time.

while part of the reasons for the mass migration of the chinese might be the promises made by the communist government and the deals,it was obvious after the first wave of chinese went back home that these werent the true situations, and the next wave of migrants moved back home with their eyes wide open and knew what to expect vis a vis the situations prevalent in china at that time,nigerian leaders have continually promised diasporans good jobs and what not to move back home,this has not brought about the desired effects unlike the chinese.

i have read the wikipedia article and these facts are not in dispute as they are the chronological events of what happened in china socio political system,nothing new, it is however not saying that the chinese did not move back home what it is saying from my own understanding is what the chinese went through the famine,the unrealistic great leap foward,people's commune e.t.c the chinese were not moving out right after mao got to power,they were moving back home, lets even assume that they started emigrating again,who wouldnt in a represive communist government,ruled by a dictator in horrible living standards, nigeria has not and never gotten that bad, apart from the economic policies patriotism was a huge catalyst that propelled the chinese foward in their nation building, tens of thousands moving out abroad is a lot but hardly noticeable in a country of 1.smthn billion inhabitants,the reason why i have not paid any heed to packages from the nigerian government or advocated for it is because of insinserity on the part of leadership and it would be counter productive on the long run if diasporans were being offered false promises

@lucabrasi
Are you ready to die for Nigeria?

China is also an axis of Evil, and a seat of capitalism. No freedom of Press in China, you cannot write anyhow on a forum like this in China. Please stop comparing Nigeria with China. But you can compare them on two things, Nigeria denied the Biafran Independence, and China also denied the Tibetian Independence.

auwal87:

@lucabrasi
Are you ready to die for Nigeria?

China is also an axle of Evil, and a seat of capitalism. No freedom of Press in China, you cannot write anyhow on a forum like this in China. Please stop comparing Nigeria with China. But you can compare them on two things, Nigeria denied the Biafran Independence, and China also denied the Tibetian Independence.

CORRECT!

muza do not buy oyibo nonsense, there is nothing like axle of evil that is george bush talk.

Axis of Evil is quoted by Yossef Bodansky, David Frum, and G.W. Bush, it is a parameter used in describing Political Spectrum, like the one below;

@auwal87
im not ready to die for nigeria,so whats the correlation with that and the issue here??
like igboitalo remarked, "axis of evil"is a george bush term and has nothing to do with the situation of things here,besides if your total surmission of china as a country boils down to"denying tibetan independence" then i totally rest my case because i wouldnt even know where to start
@muza
i dont get the joke

@Omi_tutu has made it clear. This dispute is not about the Chinese emigrating back to china at one time or another; even Nigerians have done this and continue to do so in numbers at different times. You pant this surreal picture of the thousands of Chinese people moving back, with no incentive offered them, and were somehow able to control things to the extent that they were able to cause change in China of on their own. Going by history of China to date, control has never been in the hands of the people; the people who moved back did so because the government offered them lucrative packages to entice them. Economic growth did not happen because of those who moved back, it happened because of the governments many plans to grow the Chinese economy.

You keep bringing china up as an example. How can you when what we have today in Nigeria is not close to the model that existed back then in china, or even today in the same country? You advocate that the burden is on those abroad to change things in the country, but you are against the government offering them sweet deals so they also can decide if it is worth leaving their ‘lucrative’ jobs abroad to come back down to work in Nigeria. My question is do you not see how you cannot keep bringing china up as example here? Do you not see how your continuing to “accuse” diasporans of abandoning the country is out of line and ridiculous being that the ones who you claim to be the most patriotic of peoples are themselves leaving to find greener pastures where they can even as Nigerians continue to?

@omi tutu has made it clear
this will be my last comment on the issue of chinese migration because i really don't want to derail the thread,first off, the point i was making was that, the chinese for whatever reason either inducement or not, migrated back to their country to take up less paid jobs than what many of them had in the various western countries, this is different from a typical nigerian diasporan,yes nigerians too move back home but not to take up less payn jobs or live in a one room apartment witha wife and 2 children or a repressive communist dictatorship like the chinese so theres a massive difference,
you took the specific point of migration out of others i made and made an issue out of it,that wasnt the only thing i said and my point is that"no nigerian residing in nigeria,will fight for/die for his country on the say so of diasporans telling them to rise up and fight for their country, and i was advocating for diasporans leading by example rather than passing instructions from afar hence the chinese example, the point here is irrespective of any other side issues omi tutu or anyone might have raised is that, the specific scenario where the chinese went back to their country to take up less paying jobs happened.

i keep bringing china up as an example because,while we both have different systems of governance we both have similarities in a number of ways,
1.the chinese used to run a country steeped in corruption and neglect same as nigeria.
2.both nigeria nd china have a masive population which in itself is a plus with the right economic policies geared towards maximising that
3.like china before they got to this stage,we too have a lot of highly intelligent nigerians who would transform nigeria irrespective of the present leadership only if they had a sense of patriotism same as the chinese who will prefer to take less pay working in their country than outside especially during the countries economic formative years.

while china is not perfect,in fact looking at how they have fared generally in the ratings for global competitiveness there is still a lot of work fo them to do politically,in their macroeconomics,domestic economic policies e.t.c, but the fact is that they are the only model right now that nigeria can borrow from and actually gain a lot from,without going into specifics china's 3 represents will give an over view of their guiding principles, these are china's 3 represents

"Represents advanced social productive forces" = Economic production
"Represents the progressive course of China's advanced culture" = Cultural development
"Represents the fundamental interests of the majority" = Political consensus

no one is blaming nigerian diasporans for seeking a better life abroad,the poster said nigerians are hypocrites stating his or her views as to why he/she thinks so and i gave my own slant on what i thought as well, an individual has a legitimate right to seek for a better life anywhere he/she sees fit, that is a different issue altogether,the point here is that we can occupy our rightful place as the giant of africa and inded a place of honour in the wolrd if we can sacrifice individually as nigerians by leaving well paid jobs abroad and taking up employment for less in our country as diasporans, especially as most or a lot are accomplished surgeons,business and it people,financial analysts,engineers,scientists who can retrain nigerian graduates and bring them up to international standards and kickstart our own industrial revolution, doesnt make sense yes but in the end the country will be better for it and it will also wake the nigerians in nigeria up to actually do something selfless for their country, that is why i thught we diasporans are hypocrites