shdemidemi:


Bro, don't be quick to reply or defend your argument.

They gave the verses where the Word was used in specific context.

Destruction as used in Jude 11 clearly states that it isn't a one time destruction but a loss of well being.

A God forsaken place, a place of abandonment by the creator, a place of loneliness.


i believe @lastmessenger gets the point now.

One at a time, we will go to Jude in a minute.

You danced from 2 Thessalonians 1:9 to Jude.

Now do you agree that destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 means total obliteration ? Try Malachi 4:3.

shdemidemi:

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off" – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition" [size=32pt]does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off" but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being[/size](Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Those are simple English. The sense does not in anyway imply never ending torture or loss of wellbeing.
I can see ruin, destroy, completely cut off and the other words. I can't see anything suggesting a torturous existence.

Bidam:
The conclusion of the matter is that Revelation 20:10 never said Satan and the false prophets would be annihilated and destroyed thus becoming extint. It said their torment will be day and night for ever and ever. It is simple to read and comprehend really. Why are you forcing your opinion into God's word. You can ask God if you see Him why He should torment d devil and his disciples day and night abi?

this is a better argument for hell
However it says little or nothing about humans burning forever and ever, whereas it distinctively points to Satan, the beast et al suffering such a fate

frosbel:


One at a time, we will go to Jude in a minute.

You danced from 2 Thessalonians 1:9 to Jude.

Now do you agree that destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 means total obliteration ? Try Malachi 4:3.

Wha do you understand by the word 'everlasting'?

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Need not type too much, we can check the dictionary again..

Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Short Definition: eternal, unending
Definition: age-long, and therefore: [size=25pt]practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.[/size]

frosbel:


Wrong conclusion.

Forever in this context means within a defined age or period. Go and read it up , Google is free.

To know the fate of SATAN and his demons read - Ezekiel 28:19 and Mark 1:24

satan is a spirit not a human body. Ezekiel 28:19 and Mark 1:24 is talking about time frame on earth and revelation 20 i quoted is the time they would be judged and the judgement is eternal torment not annihilation as you would erroneously have us believe.

esere826:


this is a better argument for hell
However it says little or nothing about humans burning forever and ever, whereas it distinctively points to Satan, the beast et al suffering such a fate

Atleast you admit there is such a place, isn't that a step better... god frosbel on the other hand does not believe there is a place as such.

lastmessenger:

Those are simple English. The sense does not in anyway imply never ending torture or loss of wellbeing.
I can see ruin, destroy, completely cut off and the other words. I can't see anything suggesting a torturous existence.

OK.. Now I will paste just the part that says so...please read carefully and objectively-

does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"wink but instead[b] "loss of well-being" rather than being[/b](Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Can you see the part it says loss orwell being and not loss of being?

esere826:


this is a better argument for hell
However it says little or nothing about humans burning forever and ever, whereas it distinctively points to Satan, the beast et al suffering such a fate

As for man he is a spirit that has a soul the body is just a house for the man. The body dies, the spirit lives on after death.

Bidam:
satan is a spirit not a human body. Ezekiel 28:19 and Mark 1:24 is talking about time frame on earth and revelation 20 i quoted is the time they would be judged and the judgement is eternal torment not annihilation as you would erroneously have us believe.

hmm,

so Satan will be no more in Mark 1:24 and Ezekiel 28:19 and not revelation 20 , assuming that they do not all refer to the same event ?

Have you also heard that ONLY God is immortal ? All other creatures can be destroyed.

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,... " - 1 Timothy 6:16

In other words anything that is not immortal can be destroyed including Satan et all. Only after judgement will immorality be granted - 1 Corinthians 15:54.

Now back to the for ever and ever statement, this is the way the Greek translates it from Strong's ;

Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: [size=13pt]an age[/size], [size=13pt]a cycle (of time)[/size], especially of the [size=13pt]present age[/size] as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Bidam:
As for man he is a spirit that has a soul the body is just a house for the man. The body dies, the spirit lives on after death.

wrong, that is greek myth.

Man is a living soul.

Genesis 2:7

but wait a minute
why would we read the bible that talks about several things in several ways, and chose to emphasise the worst ones?

Like I would say, Jesus who was the Son of God and indeed God as we would argue came to earth
he branched Israel where he walked on water
he apparently could fly too by faith, but didnt

Instead he preached to a narrow audience and left the others to face judgement in a hell that would last forever
Ok, he appeared again to Saul, but probably avoided selecting and appearing to folks from the hinterlands of Africa to preach the news that would have saved them from eternal punishment


.....habaaaaa!!!

pause.... rewind and think again
there is something we are not getting right about the concept of Jesus, God and the fiery judgement vs bountiful reward.

It took one man, Martin Luther to challenge the established orthodoxy of his days from whence we hear that saintly miracles where even wroth.

......go Frosbel ...goooo

even if I no participate, I go clap well, well

shdemidemi:


Atleast you admit there is such a place, isn't that a step better... god frosbel on the other hand does not believe there is a place as such.

We don't need to believe the same things
even two similar scriptures do not tell the same story.

In the days of Jesus, everyman go waka go front of temple tok him own tori from wetin im read from Torah

shdemidemi:


Atleast you admit there is such a place, isn't that a step better... god frosbel on the other hand does not believe there is a place as such.

There is no HELL in the traditional context.

It also depends on what Hell translates back into when reviewed in the context of the original languages.

Hell as a place of destruction when translated back into the original Gehenna WILL EXIST, i.e. it doe not exist at the current time and will be prepared for the destruction of Satan and his cohorts not mankind. However persistently rebellious men will also share the fate of Satan.

This sounds like sane theology in contrast to the insane theology that suggests that a God of love will rejoice in the eternal and everlasting roasting of his creatures, yeah right..

Wishful thinking from a Calvinist mindset.

Bidam:
As for man he is a spirit that has a soul the body is just a house for the man. The body dies, the spirit lives on after death.

Who told you this?
And who says the soul does not return from where it came from if the body returns to its own chemical origins?

shdemidemi:


OK.. Now I will paste just the part that says so...please read carefully and objectively-

does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"wink but instead[b] "loss of well-being" rather than being[/b](Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Can you see the part it says loss orwell being and not loss of being?

Mate stop playing games !

frosbel:


wrong, that is greek myth.

Man is a living soul.

Genesis 2:7

A complete man is dust plus spirit.

Man was made but through the dust of the ground but incomplete without the spirit.

Man became a living soul after God breathed in his nostrils.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground(1st stage), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(2nd stage); (corresponding effect of the breath/spirit) and man became a living soul.

shdemidemi:

A complete man is dust plus spirit.
Man was made but through the dust of the ground but incomplete without the spirit.
Man became a living soul after God breathed in his nostrils.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground(1st stage), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(2nd stage); (corresponding effect of the breath/spirit) and man became a living soul.

Good but spirit is simply life or breath not a person ?

If you want I can start quoting the greek etc, but I don dey tire for you abeg.

I am concerned for your students.

frosbel:


Mate stop playing games !

Are you losing steam already? This must be a dent on your well nurtured aggrandised ego

shdemidemi:


Are you losing steam already? This must be a dent on your well nurtured aggrandised ego

ego ??

So anyone who debunks your fallacies is proud, lol.

frosbel:


Good but spirit is simply life or breath not a person ?

If you want I can start quoting the greek etc, but I don dey tire for you abeg.

I am concerned for your students.

That breath is the real substance that returns to God or hell as the case may be and not the container(dust) it is sealed in....

Anyway, don't sweat too much on that, you said you wanted to show me things earlier.. go on and break a leg.


save your concerns for yourself, you definitely need it more. Plus, don't give me the evasive 'I don tire' thing... You and I know how much energy you would have used to raise a rejoinder if you had seen a crack, no matter how small in my response.

frosbel:


ego ??

So anyone who debunks your fallacies is proud, lol.

I didn't say anyone, you did.

frosbel:


There is no HELL in the traditional context.

It also depends on what Hell translates back into when reviewed in the context of the original languages.

Hell as a place of destruction when translated back into the original Gehenna WILL EXIST, i.e.[size=25pt]it doe not exist at the current time and will be prepared for the destruction of Satan and his cohorts not mankind. However persistently rebellious men will also share the fate of Satan.[/size]

This sounds like sane theology in contrast to the insane theology that suggests that a God of love will rejoice in the eternal and everlasting roasting of his creatures, yeah right..

Wishful thinking from a Calvinist mindset.

Don't confuse yourself.. will men partake or not? I can see a new twist lurking under your idea of hell.

If you admit there will eventually be a place reserved for the destruction of satan.. what do you think such place will be like?

shdemidemi:


OK.. Now I will paste just the part that says so...please read carefully and objectively-

does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"wink but instead[b] "loss of well-being" rather than being[/b](Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Can you see the part it says loss orwell being and not loss of being?

Go back and read the bible. We are not learning language. From what I can gather appolumi can be users in either the active or passive voice. It depends on which angle you are conning from.
If you are looking at it from active voice it could suggest lose of wellbeing meanwhile the passive voice suggest total destruction.

lastmessenger:

Go back and read the bible. We are not learning language. From what I can gather appolumi can be users in either the active or passive voice. It depends on which angle you are conning from.
If you are looking at it from active voice it could suggest lose of wellbeing meanwhile the passive voice suggest total destruction.

But you called me a liar before now.. do I deserve an apology from you?

We are sure not learning language but contextual interpretations might be lost if we do not go back to study through helpful tools appropriately. In the context of that verse where 'destruction' was used, it was definitely speaking of a loss, ruin of well being and not annihilation of being.

shdemidemi:

But you called me a liar before now.. do I deserve an apology from you?
We are sure not learning language but contextual interpretations might be lost if we do not go back to study through helpful tools appropriately. In the context of that verse where 'destruction' was used, it was definitely speaking of a loss, ruin of well being and not annihilation of being.

Pal, you are forcing the wrong meaning into scriptures, stop this dishonesty and confusion.

shdemidemi:


But you called me a liar before now.. do I deserve an apology from you?

We are sure not learning language but contextual interpretations might be lost if we do not go back to study through helpful tools appropriately. In the context of that verse where 'destruction' was used, it was definitely speaking of a loss, ruin of well being and not annihilation of being.

I owe no apology to you because I don't know the source of your definition but from what I can see online there are two opposing meaning to the word used. Many people believe that the word appolumi means total destruction while some others see it as lose of well being. Therefore I base my argument on the general statement that has been in the bible concerning hell and from their will I draw my conclusion. I believe the sinners will die and that is the opposite of what the rightous will receive from God.

but mehn

..una dey use harsh words on una sef ooooooo
dishonesty, confusion, liar etc

can't folks just argue for the simple reason of seeking to understand better and to develop some rigour in presentation and question answering.
None of us sabi it all, and are all susceptible to some error at least

All we do is just touch the elephant in different places and tell what we think, we see, or feel, ..God no vex.... afterall, even people wen write Bible add their own tche thcere join ... women must cover hair etc

...although some kolo folks go touch the elephant tok say na tree of life dem touch and that you wen say na lie are not spiritual

lastmessenger:

I owe no apology to you because I don't know the source of your definition but from what I can see online there are two opposing meaning to the word used. Many people believe that the word appolumi means total destruction while some others see it as lose of well being. Therefore I base my argument on the general statement that has been in the bible concerning hell and from their will I draw my conclusion. I believe the sinners will die and that is the opposite of what the rightous will receive from God.

Will you still call me a liar now, based on that concordance rendition of the word in question?

Are you saying you can't discern what context they referred to even after they gave the specific verses that apply to their interpretation?

esere826:
but mehn

..una dey use harsh words on una sef ooooooo
dishonesty, confusion, liar etc

can't folks just argue for the simple reason of seeking to understand better and to develop some rigour in presentation and question answering.
None of us sabi it all, and are all susceptible to some error at least

All we do is just touch the elephant in different places and tell what we think, we see, or feel, ..God no vex.... afterall, even people wen write Bible add their own tche thcere join ... women must cover hair etc

...although some kolo folks go touch the elephant tok say na tree of life dem touch and that you wen say na lie are not spiritual

I agree with you but it is difficult to have debates in this forum without insults.

The moment you have a difference of opinion or disagree with the orthodox point of view, the so called followers of christ aka believers will be the first to curse, swear and throw around invectives as if there is no tomorrow. Yet we are supposed to emulate the christ in them ?

Besides I called him a Liar because he was caught lying and trying to twist the meaning of certain words in their original languages, what should I have called him, good boy ?

frosbel:


I agree with you but it is difficult to have debates in this forum without insults.

Really!!!

Image123:

. Genesis 3 says nothing like annihilation,

its Clear, what happen to a serpent bruised on the head ? It dies .... Remember, That serpent in Gen 3:15 is satan .

Hebrews 2 talks about what Jesus did to the devil on the cross(when He died)

. Heb 2:14 refers to something Jesus will use his death to achieve in the future ...... Satan still have d means to cause death to mankind right now , so the idea of cross is not the point, but in the future, Jesus will brought him to NOTHING and death will cease too...

Revelations CLEARly tells us devil will be punished forever,

Lake of fire means " second death" !!! Death ...... Not everlasting life , ! Do u know that death and grave is also said to be in lake of fire to be tormented forever? Rev 20:14 Lols can death and grave be tortured ? No, anythin dat goes into the lake of fire , simply "will be no more" Rev 21:4 !!! " God will crush satan soon" Romans 16:20

lastmessenger:

You just said what I never said. To repeat myself. I said a just reward is that man is punished according to the level of iniquity he comitted.
secondly even bible through many scriptures showed that man will be punished but not tortured forever.the wages of sin is death that is very clear for all to see. Am still wondering how the endless torture doctrine found its way into Christianity. I personally think it is an attempt to keep people in check by e elite but unfortunately the idea have been counterproductive in that people develop thick skin and some totally reject the gospel. Anyway only study shall people be completely free.
My conclusion is not based on logic or interllevt or study? Then what else do you call logic? Is it not logical that a timed offence committed by man should be punished by a timed punishment?

i'm very sorry about that(the what you never said part). i had to re-read to see that i referred to conscious eternal punishment as just "punish". i see that using just "punish" can easily misconstrue what you have said, sorry about that.
You have your personal idea about what "just" is and i respect that. But do not mistake your idea for God's idea or for the biblical idea, or even for others idea. What you call a just reward might not be another's definition for just reward. What do you think? Pharaoh was stubborn, and ALL firstborn in Egypt died. Imagine all firstborn in Nigeria dying because Goodluck Jonathan did something silly. Would you think that a just thing to do? It is what God did, i'm just bringing you some perspective. i hope i'm not driving you away from God as it were, because it is not an easy thing to know God or understand God. Ibrahim Babangida killed many people and wrecked this country in summary. He has children and grandchildren. He is old and very rich, and if he is lucky he can give his life to Christ and go to wherever christians go. i've seen good christians that are very poor, died young, are looking for fruit of the womb etc. If a just reward is that man is punished according to the level of iniquity he committed, what the 'hell' is happening here?
The Bible teaches that sinners will be turned to hell and will be there for ever.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

i don't know what explanation or palliative you might have read about these, but the english and the grammar is steady here. Hell(fire) is an eternity. There are people to whom the blackness of darkness has being RESERVED for ever(Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. )
Jesus Christ, who created hell, spoke a lot about hell and wasn't kidding when He talked about it. It's a place where even their worms don't die. forget about dustbin or whatever story frosb and his people may want to say. Jesus was clear enough about ETERNAL damnation.
The wages of sin is death, very correct. However, what is death? Is death just unconsciousness of our body? i think paralysis might better fit that definition. How does the Bible define and describe death? Death is simply SEPARATION. Whatever context or book or testament that you find the word "death", it simply follows the definition and description of separation. Whether we are talking about Adam dying the day he eats the wrong tree, or of sinners being spiritually dead, or of believers being supposedly dead to the world, or dying daily, or physical death. It is all about separation. Separation of man from God, separation of the body from the spirit, separation of the christian from the world etc.
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
That is primarily death defined in the bolded above. The wages of sin is a separation from God. Adam and all men suffer that, and it can be eternal. Jesus tasted that on the cross, after being eternally connected to God. That was the price Jesus paid, the death Jesus died so that we will not die. Jesus didn't primarily die so that we would not physically die. Yes, some will not physically die, but a majority will physically die. But no child of God has to die again, do you believe this?
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Your conclusion is not based on logic or intellect or study? i said that because you referred to conscious eternal punishment of man as SENSELESS. If it was senseless to you, then conscious eternal punishment of devil(s) would also be senseless to you. But you were like maybe or maybe not. That is not consistent, that is where i picked that you were only making an emotional and moral choice(because you are a man too), not a logical one. Which one is timed offence, was devil's offence not timed offence. Na eternal offence abi?