Thank God there are also good men like Seun from Nigeria who really know the word of Jesus : Love each other...
Hope to see that new generations of Africans will condemn it like our friend Seun...

Hello Blkluv,

I want to assure you that it's not all tribes in Nigeria that engage in this wicked practice. As far as I know, it's not done around the area where I live. It's probably only still being done in a few areas. Can anyone tell us the areas in which this "circumcision" is still being practiced today?

They won't stop unless the government sets up a law against it and actually arrests and sense people to jail for carrying it out. It is still being discussed as if it's not a horrible act. It's still being discussed the same way parents will discuss whether to send their daughter to a private school or a public school.

Seun.

One funny thing about this is that the men that have the barbaric courage to mutilate girls are doing so for their selfish ends.

Why can't they cut off the tip of their penis so that they too won't enjoy sex and stop running after girls.
I stand to codenm it and say that it is not only BARBARIC, it is also WICKED and TRADITIONALLY SELFISH.
If it shld be done, then whatever is good for the goose should also be good for the gander.

I'm not interested in the races argument, I think it's just updated back almost 50 or 60 yrs....

I'm sorry if I demonstrated anger in my post , sincerely... forgive me... don't take it as personal...

As you know Love is blind and doesn't see what is in front of you but feels what is inside the heart of the person you like... that's why I married an African Lady ... simply 'cuz I felt in love with her...

I know African mothers don't do this intentionally to damage the sexual life or better said spiritual life ( not fun ) of their daughters but only because of tradition... as you mention a millenary tradition... They just do it 'cuz this is what their mothers and grandmothers did to them with no other further evidence of necessity...

I also want to greet your sisters and thousands of other modern African girls that deny the custom of circumcision, at last the truth shall prevail...

And the truth is that even in the case that a girl having her clit partially circumcised can enjoy a fullfilling sex life, there's no doubt that if that small piece of smooth skin is there the sensations are multiplied... This is not joke... It's an empirycall essay... Ya know...

Anyway a circuncised woman is less centered in the pleasures provided by her clit,... so they use to enjoy and focus more on the real pleasure zone : the G-Point and the Epicenter located deep inside the vagina where the real orgasmic waves use to surge...

I don't agree with it.
I think it is dangerous, invasive, unnatural, and unnecessary.
It should be left only to the discretion of the woman.
If a woman chooses to do it that's her choice; it should not be done to children, babies or anyone that does not volunteer for it.

[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/olmedia/240000/images/_241221_circumcision300.jpg[/img]

Female circumcision, or mutilation of the genitals, is one of the most political areas of women's health. Worldwide it is estimated that well over 100 million women have been subjected to it.

Supporters of the practice say it is done for cultural and religious reasons, but opponents say that not only is it potentially life-threatening - it is also an extreme form of oppression of women.

Those who persist in the practice in Senegal will now face a prison term of between one and five years.

Read: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241221.stm

I'm looking forward to similar laws to be passed in Nigeria. This has to stop.

And I'm glad to hear that there are other, perhaps more complicated and less frequently successful, ways a 'circumcised' woman can enjoy the act of marriage.

wow
I don't support it at all.
And i know that God did not support it also.
It is very bad.

It's very bad and primitive! I can't believe people still do it in this age.

I think the culture has its root it the popular practice of gender inequality in most cultures. In this case, the woman or woman child is being denied the right to sexual satisfaction as this practice is believed to reduce her level of sexual activeness if not quench it.

No wonder the practice has found a comfortable home in Africa where women are mostly regarded by tradition as meer objects or commidities to be bought and sold for sex and child production.

I consider this practice babbaric, and it must be stopped not just because it does not have its roots in Christianity or any modern religion but because of the danger posed to those who are mutiliated.

The danger of contacting HIV as many of the condition under which these practitioners carry out their practice are very unhygenic and the risk of total destruction of the woman's reproductive organ.

facts ...

1. female circumcision, wrong as it is, persists and is still being practiced.
2. it started and is being sustained by some level of superstition and some more.
3. the 'hermaphrodite' stuff is what brought the idea of cutting the the clit. it is still being done because of that fear. Our forbears were not necesarily stupid neither were our women encouraging their oppression by supporting the circumcision thing.
4. at that time, people that had both sexual organs 'developed' were sacrificed to the gods since it was abnormal. The very same reason why the elderly women encouraged it to be cut to 'avoid' its 'development'.
5. the story of early sexual pleasure was and has remained a dummy, aimed at making it look religious.
6. The use of cleanliness as the reason why it should be stopped is lame.... will it be accepted if it is done in the hospital or very clean environment using sterile equipments?....NO
7. The concept of enjoying sex was not an issue when this stuff started neither is it an issue for some... even now.
8. Cutting any part of the body without the person's consent is wrong... however it is done or explained.
9. But why do we pierce our girls' ears (and nose) in the name of putting a ring (earing and nose ring) without their consent? yet we see nothing wrong with it.... it is a permanent 'mark'.... thinking aloud

THINK

Thanks for feeding us with some facts. They appear to be correct; where did you get them?

I don't think there is any need for Female Circumcision, why would a girl be pulled out that way, I mean been made not to have sexuall feelings, what if he marries a man who loves sex to the cord and she can't even give a minute of sexuall satisfaction to her husband. Too Bad
That should be aborted, for crying out loud

blendz4real:

I don't think there is any need for Female Circumcision, why would a girl be pulled out that way, I mean been made not to have sexuall feelings, what if he marries a man who loves sex to the cord and she can't even give a minute of sexuall satisfaction to her husband. [b]Too Bad[/b]
That should be aborted, for crying out loud

pay attention to your words...do you mean women are there only to satisfy the sexual needs of their husband? don't you also think of how she'd feel to be unbale to enjoy sex herself? having sexual feelings is different from being sexually satisfied, do you know that?

don't know if you meant this but try to be clearer when you're responding to a post that involves human, expecially women rights, ok?

I imagine people who still do it and those who support it as people who wear animal's skin for clothes and bite the barks of trees for food. That's just the picture in my head about such people.

complications of Female circumcision that i have seen
1] excessive bleeding leading to death
2] infection of the wound leading to sepsis leading to neonatal jaundice [it was a baby] leading to permanent brain damage
3a] obstruction of labour; this lady was given a generous cut below and she delivered the baby
3b] obstruction of labour;[ this lady wasnt in hospital] she was forced to keep pushing against resistance. the baby died, she was then taken to hospital where the baby had to be removed in pieces. she later developed vesicovaginal fistula.
this is all i can remember for now, for each of these complications i saw quite a number.

hmmm.....

i know this is a very sensitive subject to seun and others.

female circumcision is very bad. our lovely people should not be doing this and thank God there is an enlightment campaign to stop it. please please let's us all help in our families to stop it.

i am glad to say we dont do it in my family but i knew through oprah winfrey years ago that this is a big practice in africa.

i never knew we raising up generation after generation of sexually repressed and frustrated women. i didn't know too that women only enjoyed sexuall satisfaction between the legs. i think there is more to pycho-sexual fulfilment than we know and i think most men have no clue about this and thank God for the privilegde to jump on band wagoons.

to all the sisters this has been to i hope you find grace to forgive whoever did it. i do not personally believe that this was done as a result of some cruelty and conspiracy to deform or repress every daughter of africa. our people are not that kinkyyy. my 2 sisters whom i love dearly have confirmed to me that this was not carried out on them and i hasten to add that this was not because we come from a well educated home.

we are africans. there are some good things in and our culture. there are sadly some bad and ugly stuff too but we must put these in perspective. our people are not barbarians.

i hope this is not a banning comment brother seun?

God save us from well meaning misguided thoughts.

Not all parents who circumcise their female kids deserve to go to jail. So many people go along with it in deference to tribal, religious and cultural norms and not because they hate their kids.
The key to stopping it is enlightenment. Making people know that there is a difference in circumcising males and females. Male circumcision is just cutting off the foreskin which anyway serves no purpose except to accumulate dirt!!! It's useless just like the appendix.  Its non invasive and is not mutilation like female circumcision.
But female circumcision involves cutting off an anatomically significant portion of the body and it has been known to cause vesicovaginal fistula (also common in cultures that encourage marriage and conception at a young age before full pelvic growth has been achieved- literally tearing the poor girl's vagina apart with a big penis). Most cultures do it because they believe it keeps a girl chaste and controls her urges for sex. While it does not control sexual urge which is mainly psychological (urge vs. stimulation), it certainly represses normal reactions to sexual stimulation. Reason why some people were able to sleep with their teachers in secondary school
Some moslems build upon references to female circumcision in the Sunnah (the words and actions of the Prophet Mohammed) but in actual fact, islamic scholars have said that there are passages in the Qur'an which by implication oppose female circumcision. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm You can find more info about female circumcision at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision
But in this age and time, its a violation of women's human rights because they are usually too young or frightened to give consent. And there is not one logically reasonable ADVANTAGE whereas there are numerous DISADVANTAGES.
So, people must be told about these disadvantages, our community leaders and other stakeholders.  The way to stop it is by enlightening people.

thanks dear sister,

i was beginning to think the whole place was full of some barbarians taking joy in mutilating young girls. growing up in africa i hardly heard of any parents abusing their kids sexually as i hear in europe

infact the bbc in london reported a research last 2 weeks that circumcised males in south africa was resistant to some form of HIV. i have to declare here that i generally dont take the bbc seriously and i have not seen the research work myself.

i dont like this business of circumcision but i dont like the sound of every old lady in africa doing this being evil either.

we need to inform and educate them.

I totally agree with omoge. Not all parents that circumcise their children deserve to go to jail, because so many of them are not even aware of the fact that such actions are bad. Therefore, I think ENLIGHTENMENT is what they need, not punishment.

everything is wrong with it. luckily i wasn't circumcised, it isn't done in my family, but i know a few girlfriends who had to go through that ordeal and i really felt bad for them. Hopefully, more people would be able to speak out on this issue. personally, if i was told to get it done, i would refuse, i don't care what they say. It's a very nasty part of tradition.

WOW    I do not even know where to start.  First I have to say that I am totally against Female Circumcision.   I first heard about it in more than 10 years ago.  I know it is a practice to prevent young females from not only being promiscuous but also to make sure that they are "saved" until they are married.  The reason why Male circumcisions are done is to remove the foreskin of the male penis to help prevent infections which would happen if the male is uncircumcised.  Please someone give me an excuse (or supposed reason) why females are being mutilated in such a manner to try to oppress who they are.  We are created equal to complete each other.  The Male is the Head of the Household however, that does not mean that he is master and we are slaves.  This shows so much inequality that it is ridiculous.  I know there going to be those who feel that women are this and that but I know in my heart that men and women complete themselves not rule and control over one another.  If that were the case then why are there Kings & Queens, Princes & Princesses. Mothers & Fathers.  Break it down to me if I am wrong.  I am not one of these "I don't need a man I can do bad all bad by myself type of women".  

Some things I want to point out about male, female and being circumcised/uncircumcised:

Genesis 1

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Galatians 3:27-29

27For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.

   28There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

   29And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

Acts 7:51
51 You stubborn and stiff-necked people, still heathen and uncircumcised (not being separated) in heart and ears, you are always actively resisting the Holy Spirit. As your forefathers [were], so you [are and so you do]!

Romans 4:10-12

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision or in uncircumcised (not being separated)

11And he received the sign of circumcision , a seal (ownership and sign of protection) of the righteousness (being in right standing with Jesus Christ) of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised (not being separated): that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness (being in right standing with Jesus Christ) might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised (not being separated).

You are right, joshjosh, its actually been documented that male circumcision prevents AIDS. But apparently some people want to cap that........it sounds too semitic to them , maybe.

In what way does it prevent AIDS?

circumcision for women is wrong, I don't support the ideal to circumcise women. thank God my mom and dad didn't circumcise me.

my own small sense tells me that female circumcision should stop because of its obvious ill effects. sort of like the ill effects of scarification. But while we work to eradicate this circumcision, we must stop buying into the lies told by the west about how and why its done.

first of all, circumcision in general is a african affair. the jews, once residents of africa, learn it from us. its one of the reasons every ethnic group in africa circumcises. i imagine that women in africa are circumcised because, like when its done to men, it is assumed it is a cleansing process. not a means to control the women's urges. The ill intent attached to circumcision by the west fuels hate towards africans. I believe female circumcision (why call it genital mutilation?) stems from the same source as male circumcision and that is the desire to be clean. besides if its to kill women's urges its doing a bad job because it actually makes the girls more likely to have sex because it has no feeling for them.

Besides why isnt the same argument placed about the cutting thatg goes on with men. why isntit called mutilation, and an attempt to control male urges. frankly it needs to stop for both genders, but also the erroneous intent attached to it also neds to be curtailed

Male circumcision reduces the risk that men will contract HIV through intercourse with infected women by about 70 percent, according to a recent study that will be presented at the International AIDS Society conference in Brazil later this month.
Several studies seem to correlate this; most show sufficient evidence exists to recommend male circumcision as a strategy in preventing heterosexual men from acquiring HIV.
But this is not to be misinterpreted - according to a review by the South African Cochrane Centre, a unit of the SA Medical Research Council, “We need to be very careful that we don’t send a message saying that if you’re circumcised you won’t get HIV. Circumcised men do get HIV".
Yeah, circumcised men do get AIDS, but it would actually be irresponsible to promote it as a preventive strategy as you would find people going around having unprotected sex thinking they have immunity like our governors.........And because most of the studies have been done in Southern Africa which has a huge rate of HIV/AIDS and because the HIV/AIDS crisis in South Africa is fueled by multiple partners, policy makers are being cautious about telling people to go ahead with having unprotected sex if they are circumcized.
To me, this fact does not really have any significance cos HIV is about prevention and not about reduction...if u get what i mean.........i don't want people going around flipping a coin everytime they want to have unprotected sex. I would rather have them prevent it at all times.

Ok, lets clear up some bullshit

1) Male circumcision is not done for health reasons. There is minimal health benefits to circumcision and certainly no resistance to aids. Male circumcision is like getting a hair cut, only, the hair NEVER grows back. Male circumcision, removes some nerve tissue from the penis, but the effect is not noticeable by men and it does not affect hormone release at puberty.

2) female circumcision also has no heath benefit. If drastic enough, it will reduce hormone emission through puberty. As a result, women who have undergone this would have a much reduced sex drive. Sex drive refers to you're body's response or desire - not your mind. A man suffering from erectile disfunction can want to have all the sex in the world, however, his body will betray him with ZERO erection.

The studies linking HIV resistance with circumcision are badly conducted - or the results badly interpreted and anyone telling you that there is some great medical benefit to circumcision does not know what they are talking about.

allonym 

Ok, lets clear up some bullshit

1) Male circumcision is not done for health reasons. There is minimal health benefits to circumcision and certainly no resistance to aids. Male circumcision is like getting a hair cut, only, the hair NEVER grows back. Male circumcision, removes some nerve tissue from the penis, but the effect is not noticeable by men and it does not affect hormone release at puberty.

2) female circumcision also has no heath benefit. If drastic enough, it will reduce hormone emission through puberty. As a result, women who have undergone this would have a much reduced sex drive. Sex drive refers to you're body's response or desire - not your mind. A man suffering from erectile disfunction can want to have all the sex in the world, however, his body will betray him with ZERO erection.

The studies linking HIV resistance with circumcision are badly conducted - or the results badly interpreted and anyone telling you that there is some great medical benefit to circumcision does not know what they are talking about.

Let's clear up some further bullshit here. The studies do not link "HIV resistance" to circumcision, they link male circumcision to a reduced transmission. There is a difference if u look and think closely enough. And I happen to know personally about some of the studies and they are as well conducted and analysed as any study can be. Maybe you should do a search on Ovid or Pubmed etc.
And if you had just paused long enough to read prev posts, you would have seen that nobody is advocating circumcision here. I was just reporting on studies that happen to have statistical significance.
One more thing here, what does "If drastic enough, it will reduce hormone emission through puberty." mean. Did u do biology in school? Cos that is so........
I suggest you try to read at least some of the prev posts before reposting

One thing I know about human behaviour is that, no matter how much you educate people, some stubborn parents will still insist on getting their daughters circumsised unless the government threatens them with a jail term. If you really want to stamp out a practice, you must combine education and legislation.

Like Senegal, we can forgive those who have done it n the past, but make it known that those who do it in the future will have to spend some years in jail. That's the way to really crush it. So if the legislation is passed this month then a perent who does it next month will go to jail while those who did it last month will be left to their consciences.

Let's not muddle up the debate by bringing up male circumcision, which has no harmful effects except that it makes the penis uglier and the tip somewhat less sensitive over time (direct contact with underwear). The only similarity is that both procedures are unecessary. Female circumcision, however, is not only unecessary but very dangerous. Yes, it's true that HIV transmission is reduced in circumcised males - apparently the skin at the tip of the penis of a circumcised male has less "holes" for the virus to pass through.

omogenikky:

allonym


Let's clear up some further bullshit here. The studies do not link "HIV resistance" to circumcision, they link male circumcision to a reduced transmission. There is a difference if u look and think closely enough. And I happen to know personally about some of the studies and they are as well conducted and analysed as any study can be. Maybe you should do a search on Ovid or Pubmed etc.
And if you had just paused long enough to read prev posts, you would have seen that nobody is advocating circumcision here. I was just reporting on studies that happen to have statistical significance.
One more thing here, what does "If drastic enough, it will reduce hormone emission through puberty." mean. Did u do biology in school? Cos that is so........
I suggest you try to read at least some of the prev posts before reposting

1) where in my post did i say people here were advocating female circumcision?
2) This stupid HIV circumcision thing:

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/gray1a/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1599979,00.html

Here are a couple reports. The second one even seems to point to a reason why circumcision could lead to reduced HIV transmission. However, BOTH seem to indicate that there is probably another reason. You don't have to be a genius to figure it out. WHY were the people in study 1 circumcized before puberty and those in study 2 considering circumcision. . . let me take a guess. . . MOST likely, religious reasons. In the first case, there wasn't as big a difference statisically between the two groups as in the second case. The first ones - men who probably grew up in the church/mosque or had religious parents to some degree - though its possible some didn't since circumcisions are so routine doctors sometimes just perform them and parents have no clue why they're really doing it. In the second case, these men CHOSE to become circumcized. They clearly were devoting themselves to something. And I'm guessing, no premarital sex was part of what they are dedicating themselves to. Since NOBODY would have HIV in the second study when it began, it makes PERFECT sense that those men will have drastically smaller numbers.

So, I still say - circumcision alone does NOT provide any protection from HIV.

- Female circumcision or Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.circlist.com/femalecirc/anatfemale.html
http://www.noharmm.org/femcirctech.htm

- further clarification - we are talking about Female Genital Mutilation on this thread - not exactly circumcision. The articles clearly indicates reason's why a female may undergo circumcision (if you have a problem, look up the exact definition of the word).

3) As for the hormone thing - I am very wrong, thanks for pointing that out.