Tim: 9 months after Presidential elections in Nigeria, the main opposition party is still contesting the result. Scores of people died in the run up those elections and tensions in some areas remain high. My guest today challenged President Obasanjo for the Presidency and claims the outcome was fraudulent. As the former military leader who overthrew a government in the 80s, how good are his credentials?
Muhamadu Buhari, A very warm welcome to the program.



Buhari: Thank you

Tim: President Obasanjo says politicians should show gallantry and good nature in defeat. Why don’t you show some?

Buhari: He doesn’t deserve it

Tim: Why not?

Buhari: Because the elections were not free and fair and it is the basis of democracy itself

Tim: Aren’t you just a sour loser?

Buhari: No! I haven’t lost!

Tim: Well you have according to the result of the Nigerian electoral commission declared the results and you lost.

Buhari: We are contesting the result. We are still in court.

Tim: You are contesting but you are not going to win are you?

Buhari: I am going to win.

Tim: President Obasanjo polled double the number of votes that you did. You say it’s a fraudulent result. It could not have been fraudulent to the tune of 12milion votes could it?


Buhari: It is

Tim: What’s your evidence?

Buhari: It’s in the court.

Tim: Well give me an idea, what is your evidence?

Buhari: There are states that elections were not held, in states where elections were held, results were changed or the boxes were snatched, exchanged or stamped with fraudulent votes, voters card. And this is what we are contesting in the court.

Tim: But you are giving me a picture of some irregularities, many people or many observers accept that there were some irregularities. But the commonwealth itself called this historic and a landmark transfer of power from one civilian administration to another saying that it is a step forward for democracy. Why can’t you accept the verdict of the commonwealth observers?

Buhari: It is in the minority. The European and American observer team have a more credible report.

Tim: Well let’s take the American report from the International Republican Institute for instance. It says the IRA does not believe, the IRI rather does not believe there is sufficient cause to doubt the announced electoral outcomes in most of the locations observed. So they are saying it’s OK, there were some irregularities but it’s OK and congratulated the people of Nigeria on their efforts to conduct a peaceful and meaningful election. That’s not tearing holes in it, that’s not saying the whole things was a fraud or a sham like the way you are.

Buhari: Not the whole thing. Not absolutely the whole thing but most of it was fraudulent. We are supposed to have a representative in every polling booth in every state of the federation and definitely people were not allowed to stay at the polling booth to supervise the election effectively.

Tim: There was some irregularities but you lost resoundingly. You didn’t, it was not a close run election. It was not a few thousand or even a few million votes, it was 12 million votes! That is an enormous amount of fraud that you are alleging. In the papers that you filed in court you said “the majority of the votes if not all the votes scored for President Obasanjo were not valid ones”, that is a huge claim to make. You are basically saying that he did not win a single vote. Properly!

Buhari: Not a single vote, but as I told you . . . . .

Tim: .. .but “majority of the vote if not all of the votes scored for him were not valid ones” that is a quote from the documents you filed in court.

Buhari: Yes and that is what were are proceeding to prove in the court.

Tim: That’s patently a ridiculous challenge isn’t it? That he did not win a single vote or may not have won a single vote? Properly? That’s patently ridiculous.

Buhari: Not single . . not single . .certainly the majority of the results announced was fraudulent, it was fraudulent. And we are in the process of proving that in the court and we are satisfied with our presentation to the court so far.

Tim: Well you would say that wouldn’t you?


Buhari: Yea but I wouldn’t say it if what we are producing in court in terms of evidence couldn’t stand.

Tim: If the vote had been rigged the way you suggested it has been rigged, there will be massive civil disobedience, massive strike. As the President’s campaign manager put it, “if the results didn’t conform to the votes there would have been spontaneous reaction, Nigerians are not sheep who need to be incited”.

Buhari: We stopped our people from demonstrating?

Tim: Really?

Buhari: We did!

Tim: That’s a first?

Buhari: uhum . . well we went out. If you could recall the last election on the 3rd of May. In most parts of the South East, South South and North Central there were no elections. You could go and cross check them all. But we went round, we spoke on the radio for people to please come out and vote for the House of assembly and less than 25% of Nigerians voted for that election.

Tim: Surely Mr Buhari you should be complaining more about the violence that’s accompanied the elections, the deaths, the number of people who were forced out of their homes, had to flee the areas where they live. Rather than the fact that you didn’t win an election which a number of observers think alright was flawed but was basically the right result. Shouldn’t you be complaining about the violence more?

Buhari: Well part of the process of court action is complain about the violence. We have taken people who were shot before the judges before the panel. They saw them. We are going to produce people whose relatives were killed.

Tim: What about the violence that your party engaged in?

Buhari: My party did not involve in any violence, my part did not. We tried . . . .

Tim: You are telling me seriously then that none of your supporters engaged in any violence whatsoever?

Buhari: It’s impossible in the circumstances because people were standing up and they were being shot. They have to run away, if other people hit them with sticks may be they use their hands to hit back

Tim: Oh so they only hit back, they only . . .

Buhari: They just react, they just react to what was done to them.

Tim: You don’t seriously suspect people to believe that do you? I mean you have human right. . .

Buhari: People will believe me because we are producing the evidence.

Tim: Human Right Watch the international human right body says “Political violence has not been the exclusive preserve of the PDP which is the President’s party. The larger opposition parties including yours the ANPP cannot criticise the PDP use of violence from a position of moral authority. Their supporters too have carried out serious acts of violence in pursuit of electoral victory”.

Buhari: The difference between us . . . .

Tim: That’s the view of an impartial Human Rights body.

Buhari: Yea . . .but it is even more impartial, the evidence is more impartial when we produce it in court. And this is what we are doing. How many PDP . . .

Tim: You would say that wouldn’t you? You would accuse the President’s party the PDP . . .


Buhari: When we produce it in court the agent saw it, there is nothing they could do than record the violence meted on our supporters. Let the PDP produce their own members of the party that were killed or maimed or stopped from casting their votes by the ANPP or indeed other members of the CNPP thats the Conference of Nigeria Political Parties.

Tim: Human Rights Watch says little concrete action was taken against those who use violence to further their political ambition. The perpetrators of violence and their sponsors often enjoy complete impunity for their actions both from the official law enforcement bodies and from their own political parties. Mr Buhari like it or not your party is just as much involved and implicated in the violence as the President’s. That’s what International Observers are saying. Let me give you an example. A clash in a place called Benue in February last year. Bteween your supporters and those of the President. 7 dead at a place called Jato-aka ANPP supporters attacked and killed the elderly father of a PDP man. They attacked him with machete, burned his home and at least 4 other PDP supporters were reported to be killed. Who carried out that violence if it was not your party? This is a specific example.

Buhari: That was an allegation, that was an allegation, what we are doing . . . .

Tim: Well deny it then?

Buhari: Of course we deny it:

Tim: You deny it? . . you don’t know the facts but you deny it anyway?

Buhari: and we are in court . . . .why didn’t PDP go to court?. We are in court to prove who killed our people and the relatives of those that lost their relatives, fathers, mothers and children are going to stand before the court and that’s fact. Let the PDP produce such people to the court and defend themselves.

Tim: But there has been repeated clashes between your supporters and the President’s party the PDP. You can not seriously expect people to believe that your party played no part in inciting this violence. That it was all the work of the PDP. You keep such an iron grip on each and everyone of your supporters that you know for a fact that they were not involved in anything. Hardly credible is it?


Buhari: Well you may not think it is credible. But when we go to court and we produce the evidence then that is when the credibility of allegations can be substantiated not by just stories. In the court that will finally decide.

Tim: What are you going to say about November 15th 2002. There was an explosion at the office of the National Pilot a weekly newspaper owned by the son of a PDP member. The building was destroyed, 5 people were injured. Human Right Watch say the bombing of the paper was most likely politically motivated. The paper itself was unmistakably politicised as a venue for PDP propaganda. Are you telling me your people did not do that?

Buhari: Yes.

Tim: How do you know?

Buhari: Why didn’t the PDP go to court? What I am telling you is that the only arbiter that should be accepted will be the court.

Tim: and if you lose in the court then you will go home and just stay quiet, will you? You will just accept defeat.

Buhari: why not? That’s why we are in court.

Tim: You will accept the verdict of the court

Buhari: we will accept the verdict of the court. My party will accept the verdict of the court. That’s why we are there.

Tim: People say that for someone complaining about a lack of democracy in the country, you never showed the slightest interest in democracy yourself when you were a military leader. Is that fair? The Vice President said Buhari is not a democrat. He does not believe in democracy, he has never believed in democracy right from the word go. He has got a point hasn’t he?

Buhari: That’s his personal opinion . . . . . .he can say anything against me.

Tim: But the fact is that when you were a military leader from January 84 to August 85 you actually overthrew a democratically elected Government. That does not exactly reinforce your democratic credentials does it?

Buhari: Because you don’t accept people can change.

Tim: Have you changed?

Buhari: I did, from the demise of the Soviet Union I believed that multi-party system is the best system but then I put the caveat that elections must be free and fair.

Tim: In your view?

Buhari: In all the views and the views of all democracies, elections must be free and fair.

Tim: So you’ve changed from the man in 1984 and 85 who didn’t really have much time for democracy at all did you?

Buhari: They are different systems

Tim: but you didn’t, did you? I mean people are judged on their record in politics and this is part of your record you can’t escape from it. You overthrew a democratically elected government!

Buhari: Of course we did!

Tim: It doesn’t enhance your democratic credentials does it?

Buhari: That’s a matter of opinion. But what I . . from the time I joined politics to today I hope nobody can fault democratic credentials.

Tim: So you have changed your views from that time?

Buhari: I have changed my views and I have reason for changing my views. That was the collapse of the Soviet Union

Tim: Reason for changing your view is that you want to get elected wasn’t it?

Buhari: I changed my view before I joined politics.

Tim: So the man who said it’s up to the people. If you choose the correct leadership there won’t be any need for the military regime. You don’t agree with that anymore? That’s what you used to say.

Buhari: I agree with that but again that caveat is the fundamental issue. Elections must be free and fair, where elections are not free and fair there is no social justice because people are not allowed to elect their leaders.

Tim: So what separated the time when you took power in 84. What separated you from any other despot or dictator around the world who said that democracy wasn’t working and so he just had to come in and take the rein of power himself? What separated you from any other old despot?

Buhari: The performance of any particular Government.

Tim: You said at the time that the military came in when it was absolutely necessary and the elected people had failed the country.
Buhari: That’s right

Tim: Do you still think that will be justified. So you have not changed your views?

Buhari: Well when a Government does not performed and the evidence is clearly there. You don’t fault the system, you fault the operators.

Tim: But who are you to make that judgement? Who are you to make that Judgement?

Buhari: I was in the position to make it

Tim: You were a military officer, you were not elected by anybody?

Buhari: Well those elected ruined the country. And the military is part of the Nigerian elite

Tim: You weren’t elected to take over the government; you were elected to loyally serve the state. And You didn’t.

Buhari: because those were serving the state failed to loyally serve the state.

Tim: Let’s be honest the military came in your case because of your utter disregard for democracy and your burning ambition for power. That’s why you took over didn’t you?

Buhari: No. I took over because my country was being mismanaged and we proved that the country was being mismanaged.

Tim: You proved it to your satisfaction but you couldn’t even prove it to the satisfaction of your fellow officers who in turn overthrew you in August 85 and flung you in jail.

Buhari: Ya but what did they do to the country? They ruined the country. They absolutely ruined the country.

Tim: What did you do to the country? You would’nt even fix a timetable for a handover to democracy. That’s why they overthrew you. You were so enjoying your power, you were so glorying in your own power that you had no intention of ever handing over to a civilian administration.

Buhari: This is what they said. But we stabilised the economy. When we came in nobody knew how much Nigeria was owing, workers were owed about 9 months arrears of salary, the naira was going down. This was when we came in. For the 20 months we were around we refused to devalue the naira, we were paying the debts, medium and long term debts we were paying it, we did not take anymore debts, we did not devalue the naira, we paid arrears of salaries and we made the country more secure.

Tim: but you flung a lot of people in jail. It was a pretty haphazard campaign against corruption The well connected got off because they can buy their way out? And others were imprisoned for long times and some people were executed.

Buhari: That’s not correct!

Tim: That’s what the library of congress said. Some people were executed or got long jail terms others got off completely if they were well connected. That’s exactly what the Americans said.

Buhari: People were executed after due processes of investigation for participating in hard drug transaction otherwise politically nobody was executed.

Tim: You took some bizarre measures didn’t you? You tried to make people stand in orderly bus queues at the threat of being whipped by the military. Why would you do a thing like that?

Buhari: There was so much exaggeration.

Tim: You never did that?

Buhari: No! I did not say I did not do it. But I didn’t order for people to be whipped. But if you go ask we have developed a culture of orderliness in a chaotic society

Tim: What business is it of the government how people stand orderly in the bus queues

Buhari: orderliness

Tim: When you got massive corruption? Massive poverty? And you are worrying about people standing in bus queues?

Buhari: It was part of process of disciplining a society, that’s why we have a zonal tribunal where corrupt individuals were being charged and some were successfully prosecuted. It was not mere allegation, documentary evidence were produced for those who stole public funds and they were punished. Those who thought they will never be punished for stealing public funds.

Tim: How much of a commitment was it to democracy your decree 4 which drastically limited freedom of the press at that time? Criminalised the publication of any story which embarrassed a government official or caused disaffection among the public even if it is true. How much of a commitment was that to democracy?

Buhari: well there is no need for anybody to publish a story that will embarrass a public officer without cross checking the story. This is what you do. Why do Nigerians . . .

Tim: What if the story is true?

Buhari: then the public officer will be punished

Tim: why shouldn’t you publish the story if it’s true

Buhari: No you publish it when it is true, not speculate.

Tim: But you were criminalising the publication of any story which embarrassed a government official whether it was true or not.

Buhari: we don’t want diversion of attention from the main problems of the country, we don’t know how much we were owing, our currency was sliding, the economy is being ruined

Tim: That’s a terrible excuse to take away one of the basic freedoms of the press which is to be able to report what is true.

Buhari: We don’t stop people from reporting the truth

Tim: You put journalist in jail and stifled criticism wherever you could

Buhari: For those who have been paid to publicise against the government to cause distraction from the serious issues before the Nation

deji68:
Chei !!!!!...