lanrexlan:
Your ignorance is pathetic, you can do better in your catholics stuffs.

you are the ignorance here, your brother say Muslims don't believe in vision, but you believe in muhammed when he claimed he saw vision.

Abraham and Ishmael were not in Mecca to build Kaaba. This is why Jesus told the man to leave.

See it here: https://www.nairaland.com/2101868/quranic-evidence-abraham-ishmael-did

truthman2012:
Abraham and Ishmael were not in Mecca to build Kaaba. This is why Jesus told the man to leave.

See it here: https://www.nairaland.com/2101868/quranic-evidence-abraham-ishmael-did

So why did your Jesus allowed him to reach Mecca first, just to tell him after: "leave this place"?

Why did your Jesus forget to tell him: Dont go to Mecca?

Abuamam:


-That was just one incident of a narration of 5verses in Surat al Alaq.

I really don't know what the above means, I already know it is in the quran that's why I asked

The Qur'an was revealed over a total of 23years... enough time for a refutation to occur, but was not forthcoming.

What type of refutation if I may ask, I know even after 23 years, there are people who don't believe him and keep refuting him till date by comparing his prophecy to existing ones.

-Yes, the angel was seen by the companions on different occasions. Many hadith exist of one companion or the other seeing Jubril, and even hearing lessons on Islam from him. Reference the hadith of Umar ibn alKhattab for example, when the angel came to teach them the pillars of their religion... among others.

Now this is one point where I marvel at the muslims way of seeing things, for instance, the muslims believe only the koran is the pure word of God and even go as far as challenging the christians that the bible isn't entirely the word of God, but on a closer look, you discover the muslims will always fall back to the hadith which is entirely the word of man to justify the koran. That's to say the koran alone doesn't have all the proof save it is complemented by the hadith (the word of man) if that is so, even if they try to present them as different books, they still combine the word of God and that of man to proof themselves.

Again a lot of controversies surround the different existing hadiths that all muslims don't seem to agree on them.
So I will prefer you stick to the koran because if we add the hadith, we may begin to dig other things.

Talking of Gabriel speaking to Mohammed or the people, I believe the said Gabriel didn't identify himself as Gabriel when he met the prophet till waraqa told mohammed so. Then Gabriel took up the name given to him by waraqa (a man who didn't see him or witness the incidence) even though Angel Gabriel is not "the secret keeper" as wrongly asserted by waraqa.

-There were other signs of his prophethood as well; his total honesty for all his life, whereby even his enemies would keep their money safely with him (such a man would not lie),

Honesty is not a characteristics possessed only by prophet, I still remember a man from my maternal home whom everyone can attest to his honesty in life even after his death, his sincerity is legendary even though he was a pagan all his life. Does that make him a prophet too.
You also made the post below

"The devil does not care about his apology to his wife, if it makes his message more credible. The man can be led to behave like a saint, if Satan thinks it can mislead more people to the fire.

Is this not also applicable to Mohammed's character?

his ability to perform beneficial miracles, his prophetic manners, his ability to predict things that would happen in future, in a clear, specific and unambiguous manner; even many that are happening today...

Didn't Mohammed himself state clearly that he can't perform miracles? What miracles are you now talking about?

15 centuries later. His standing miracle; the Qur'an which till today could not be matched in its beauty or form. It is totally free from contradictions and errors, and has not failed in a single prediction.

You saw the koran as a miracle, I don't, there isn't anything spectacular about it, it's just like any other book(s) believed to be scriptures or even less.
Talking about predictions, ...you called them predictions and that's what they are, many other people have made predictions that came to pass yet that doesn't make them prophet or mean it was truly revealed to them by some angels and that of mohammed is just one of them.

You see, we take his life as a whole to see what kind of greatness he possessed.

If we are to actually review his entire life, we may end up seeing more reasons to believe his was only hallucinating like he usual did from childhood.

Now looking closely at what you have written so far, you will agree with me that you saying muslims don't believe in visions isn't correct and you are gradually shifting post.

Well I am making this post, not to discredit islam or Mohammed but to make you realise that almost every organised religion today is a product of vision and faith and that includes islam.

This story get K-leg too much.
Anyway...

lanrexlan:
You need the mercy most, stop peddling with lies mister.

Picture doesn't mean anything, the story lacks credibility.But as usual, christians can believe anything.I don't blame you though, a person that believes 1+1+1=1 can absolutely believes anything.

Part of the doctrine bro...
"For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" Romans 3:7
Oh, King James (pentecostal preferred) version.

Horus:


So why did your Jesus allowed him to reach Mecca first, just to tell him after: "leave this place"?

Why did your Jesus forget to tell him: Dont go to Mecca?

The man got to Mecca before he called on God. If he had called Him at home He would have told him not to go to Mecca. All the while he has been calling on allah who could not solve his problems.

Abuamam:
This story get K-leg too much.
Anyway...



Part of the doctrine bro...
"For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" Romans 3:7
Oh, King James (pentecostal preferred) version.

Would a preacher of God's word say is lying and expect people to believe him? You don't know the right interpretation of the Bible.

truthman2012:





Let us see your islamic source(s) please.



When did he die and where was he buried? Show your proof.



Until you are able to provide proof for your statements.

@ Abuama

You have ran away from answering these questions. Scroll up to see them in detail.

lanrexlan:
Who banned you self and how many months or na years?

Na who ban Rilwayne and for what Make dem becareful o

AlBaqir:


Na who ban Rilwayne and for what Make dem becareful o

I was ban in the Islamic section without a warning, I ask a question and demanded for answer, the mod ban. I did not complain like you guys are doing.

truthman2012:


@ Abuama

You have ran away from answering these questions. Scroll up to see them in detail.

Just tired of the dumb arguments. For example, i have no idea what his death and burial have to do with anything. Anyhow, see this

http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/ismail.html

You can read all the Islamic evidence you like there.

AlBaqir:


Na who ban Rilwayne and for what Make dem becareful o

Bro. na those haywire supermods for politics section + antispambot, but I'll be back tomorrow..

malvisguy212:
I was ban in the Islamic section without a warning, I ask a question and demanded for answer, the mod ban. I did not complain like you guys are doing.

who ask you to rant now?

Abuamam:


Just tired of the dumb arguments. For example, i have no idea what his death and burial have to do with anything. Anyhow, see this

http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/ismail.html

You can read all the Islamic evidence you like there.

Sorry brother, their reasoning is provoking and very dumb.

That's why I rarely reply them nowadays, the op has opened the same thread asking about Ismael and Abraham.
Example

www.nairaland.com/1469102/muslims-prove-these-god

Rilwon:


who ask you to rant now?

His hands are faster than his brain, don't blame him.

Quick recovery from your ban o

I was taught this in skool those days. How ibrahim built the kaaba in mecca.. i can't remember the full story again..

Abuamam:


He was not born there. He was taken there by his mother Hagar, when Abraham's first wife drove them out.
He settled there.
What do you mean, how did he exit? By Alitalia, or Saudi airlines? He lived there. His father visited them there and on one or more of those visits, built the Kaaba.
What is so hard there. Sheeesh.

Abuamam:
Delirium tremens. Lol.

Stop wasting your time. We muslims do not believe in visions. Any devil can come and tell you "I am Jesus, I am God. Do this and that".

Incidentally, all these ex-muslims that form movements and so on, end up being fraudulent. They know how gullible christians can be, so they cook up the kind of unsubstantiable story that christians love to hear, then make a living off the story. Any unscrupulous muslim can do it.

419 things.

That is, if christians didn't cook up the story themselves, as they have been known to do.

Still 419 things anyhow.

Except Muhammad's visions.

Abuamam:


Just tired of the dumb arguments. For example, i have no idea what his death and burial have to do with anything. Anyhow, see this

http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/ismail.html

You can read all the Islamic evidence you like there.

Death and burial of Abraham is very important to establish whether or not they were at any time in Mecca. If they were truly in Mecca, are you not supposed to know how they got there and when they died from islamic sources? Up till now, nobody could trace the graves of Abraham and Ishmael in Mecca, proving they were never there. The bible proves they didn't go to Mecca, it states where they lived and died.

From the unverified story in your link, Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael there and turned back. How was Abraham a party to building Kaaba since he didn't stay with them?

.

lanrexlan:
Sorry brother, their reasoning is provoking and very dumb.

That's why I rarely reply them nowadays, the op has opened the same thread asking about Ismael and Abraham.
Example

www.nairaland.com/1469102/muslims-prove-these-god

You only reply when you think you have a point and keep mute when there is nothing you have to say. Even the point you think you have is always a trash.

truthman2012:
.

Am just gonna give you Islamic proof for how prophet Ibrahim and Ismail (A.S) got to makkah and how they built the kabbah.

check this link for quranic and hadith verifications. http://www.islamicity.com/articles/articles.asp?ref=AS1206-5158&p=2



hope that helps.

italo:
Except Muhammad's visions.

And those if the other messengers of Allah; like Nuh, Musa and Isa etc. (may peace be upon them all); ie, when we can get the ORIGINALS of what they taught.

truthman2012:


Death and burial of Abraham is very important to establish whether or not they were at any time in Mecca. If they were truly in Mecca, are you not supposed to know how they got there and when they died from islamic sources? Up till now, nobody could trace the graves of Abraham and Ishmael in Mecca, proving they were never there. The bible proves they didn't go to Mecca, it states where they lived and died.

From the unverified story in your link, Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael there and turned back. How was Abraham a party to building Kaaba since he didn't stay with them?

No one is claiming that they died there. They could have died anywhere. That disproves nothing. I can live and build a house in Nigeria, then go and die in China. Does that prove that I did not build a house in Nigeria?

The Bible is not a reliable source, having no credible authorship or chain of narrators. Even if we want to accept its accuracy, it did not prove any thing to the contrary of what Islam says. If anything, it supports the Islamic narrative:

Genesis 21:19-22
"Then God opened her (Hagar's) eyes, and she saw a well of water (Zamzam?). So she went and filled a skin with water and gave the boy (Ismail) a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

This shows you that Ismail grew up in Paran... no? So where is Paran? Let us see what the Bible has to say:

Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said; the Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir. He shone forth from Mt Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the South. From his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The South of Sinai? The actual location of this mountain remains a confusion for Christians. Even though Paul made it clear for them:

Galatians 4:25
" 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

Mount Sinai is in Arabia (traditionally, Arabs have referred to Jabal al Laws as the Mt Sinai of the prophet Musa), Mt Paran is South of Mt Sinai. Hagar and Ismail grew up in Paran.

The Bible even goes on to say that the prophets Musa and Haarun took the Israelites through Paran (Numbers 13:13-26). The prophet Dawud did go to the wilderness of Paran. So that they could have performed the pilgrimage is not at all far-fetched... that an OT with a strong Jewish bias did not state it, does not preclude its having happened... and God knows best. Again, I point out that Biblical authorship is largely unknown. I just wish to show you that your Bible accepts it.

Wikipedia has more to say about the Biblical Paran.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

truthman2012:


Firstly, Abraham was said to lead them to Mecca and turned back, meaning he did not stay with them. How could he have taken part in the building of Kaaba?

There are other narrations that he often visited them. They were his family. He did not abandon them. The Kaaba was built during any one or more of those visits.

truthman2012:

Secondly, Ishmael was said to be a baby still sucking, which shows he could not know Abraham and his religion very well as a baby. His mother as an Egyptian, who came from idolatry background (Egyptians were idol worshipers at that time) must have had influence on him. Worst still is the fact that his mother married him an Egyptian girl as well. This could account for the reason Kaaba was built originally for idol worship as Ishmael did not grow with the knowledge of Abraham religion.

Read the response above. Same application. Abraham visited and taught his son. He was not an idol worshipper. Neither was Ismail. Even your Bible states that God was with them. They were monotheists... muslims.

truthman2012:

That being apart, the story of Abraham taking Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca could not be true. The distance between Israel and Mecca is about 1500 km. Why would Abraham walk that long distance on leg to settle baby Ishmael in Mecca? Could Hagar and her small baby walk such a distance?

Actually, there is no telling what part of Canaan Abraham lived in. There is no telling how long the journey took. And Mecca to the Jordanian border is just about 700km.

greetings:


Am just gonna give you Islamic proof for how prophet Ibrahim and Ismail (A.S) got to makkah and how they built the kabbah.

check this link for quranic and hadith verifications. http://www.islamicity.com/articles/articles.asp?ref=AS1206-5158&p=2

hope that helps.

This is the story from your link:

Ibn Abbas narrated:

"... Ibrahim brought her (Hajrah) and her son, Ismail while she was suckling him, to a place near the Kaaba under a tree on the spot of Zam-Zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Makkah, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ismail's mother followed him saying: "O Ibrahim! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said: "Yes". She said: "Then He will not neglect us." and she returned (to her child) while Ibrahim proceeded on his way.

On reaching the Thaniya (mountain) where they could not see him, Ibrahim faced the Kaaba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayer:

"O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks." [Surah Ibrahim 14:37]..." [Sahih Bukhari Book# 55, Hadith# 583]

Firstly, Abraham was said to lead them to Mecca and turned back, meaning he did not stay with them. How could he have taken part in the building of Kaaba?

Secondly, Ishmael was said to be a baby still sucking, which shows he could not know Abraham and his religion very well as a baby. His mother as an Egyptian, who came from idolatry background (Egyptians were idol worshipers at that time) must have had influence on him. Worst still is the fact that his mother married him an Egyptian girl as well. This could account for the reason Kaaba was built originally for idol worship as Ishmael did not grow with the knowledge of Abraham religion.

That being apart, the story of Abraham taking Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca could not be true. The distance between Israel and Mecca is about 1500 km. Why would Abraham walk that long distance on leg to settle baby Ishmael in Mecca? Could Hagar and her small baby walk such a distance?

Abuamam:


And those if the other messengers of Allah; like Nuh, Musa and Isa etc. (may peace be upon them all); ie, when we can get the ORIGINALS of what they taught.



No one is claiming that they died there. They could have died anywhere. That disproves nothing. I can live and build a house in Nigeria, then go and die in China. Does that prove that I did not build a house in Nigeria?

The Bible is not a reliable source, having no credible authorship or chain of narrators. Even if we want to accept its accuracy, it did not prove any thing to the contrary of what Islam says. If anything, it supports the Islamic narrative:

Genesis 21:19-22
"Then God opened her (Hagar's) eyes, and she saw a well of water (Zamzam?). So she went and filled a skin with water and gave the boy (Ismail) a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

This shows you that Ismail grew up in Paran... no? So where is Paran? Let us see what the Bible has to say:

Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said; the Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir. He shone forth from Mt Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the South. From his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The South of Sinai? The actual location of this mountain remains a confusion for Christians. Even though Paul made it clear for them:

Galatians 4:25
" 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

Mount Sinai is in Arabia (traditionally, Arabs have referred to Jabal al Laws as the Mt Sinai of the prophet Musa), Mt Paran is South of Mt Sinai. Hagar and Ismail grew up in Paran.

The Bible even goes on to say that the prophets Musa and Haarun took the Israelites through Paran (Numbers 13:13-26). The prophet Dawud did go to the wilderness of Paran. So that they could have performed the pilgrimage is not at all far-fetched... that an OT wiyh a strong Jewish bias did not state it, does not preclude its having happened... and God knows best. Again, I point out that Biblical authorship is largely unknown. I just wish to show you that your Bible accepts it.

Wikipedia has more to say about the Biblical Paran.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

Bros...muslims believe in visions or muslims dont believe in visions?

Which one should we take?

truthman2012:


How do you know?

Jesus at Hajj? haba.. biko.. . like Pastor Adeboye driving from Benin to Lagos without Fuel..

Abuamam

No one is claiming that they died there. They could have died anywhere. That disproves nothing. I can live and build a house in Nigeria, then go and die in China. Does that prove that I did not build a house in Nigeria?

As they didn't die in Mecca because their grave could not be traced, to where did they disappear, leaving Kaaba where they were supposed to be worshiping?

The Bible is not a reliable source, having no credible authorship or chain of narrators. Even if we want to accept its accuracy, it did not prove any thing to the contrary of what Islam says. If anything, it supports the Islamic narrative:

Genesis 21:19-22
"Then God opened her (Hagar's) eyes, and she saw a well of water (Zamzam?). So she went and filled a skin with water and gave the boy (Ismail) a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

This shows you that Ismail grew up in Paran... no? So where is Paran? Let us see what the Bible has to say:

Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said; the Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir. He shone forth from Mt Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the South. From his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The South of Sinai? The actual location of this mountain remains a confusion for Christians. Even though Paul made it clear for them:

Galatians 4:25
" 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

Mount Sinai is in Arabia (traditionally, Arabs have referred to Jabal al Laws as the Mt Sinai of the prophet Musa), Mt Paran is South of Mt Sinai. Hagar and Ismail grew up in Paran.

The Bible even goes on to say that the prophets Musa and Haarun took the Israelites through Paran (Numbers 13:13-26). The prophet Dawud did go to the wilderness of Paran. So that they could have performed the pilgrimage is not at all far-fetched... that an OT with a strong Jewish bias did not state it, does not preclude its having happened... and God knows best. Again, I point out that Biblical authorship is largely unknown. I just wish to show you that your Bible accepts it.

The Bible is not reliable yet you quoted from it. When the Bible talks about Ishmael being blessed and having twelve nations, don't you believe it? Smh!

There are other narrations that he often visited them. They were his family. He did not abandon them. The Kaaba was built during any one or more of those visits

Let's see the narrations.

Ibn Abbas narrated:

"... Ibrahim brought her (Hajrah) and her son, Ismail while she was suckling him, to a place near the Kaaba under a tree on the spot of Zam-Zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Makkah, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ismail's mother followed him saying: "O Ibrahim! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said: "Yes". She said: "Then He will not neglect us." and she returned (to her child) while Ibrahim proceeded on his way.

On reaching the Thaniya (mountain) where they could not see him, Ibrahim faced the Kaaba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayer:

"O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks." [Surah Ibrahim 14:37]..." [Sahih Bukhari Book# 55, Hadith# 583]

From the above narration, we can deduce the following:

1. Abraham went and did not look back.
2. He he did not look back because allah ordered him not to look back.

Since it was allah who ordered Abraham to leave Hagar and Ishmael without looking back, how do you expect him to come visiting them again? Coming or looking back visiting them is a disobedience to allah's order. Again, why did Abraham have to relocate them? It was because Abraham was ordered by God to send them out. Why would he still be living with them?

The truth is Abraham was not in Mecca to build Kaaba. It was built by idolaters in Mecca, which housed their 360 idols including Muhammad's father's idol I-illah later called allah. It was this I-illah (allah) that demon Gabriel commanded Muhammad and muslims to worship, making them to believe it is the true God.

truthman2012:


As they didn't die in Mecca because their grave could not be traced, to where did they disappear, leaving Kaaba where they were supposed to be worshiping?

Who said they did not die in Mecca? Only God knows where they died. The absence of millenia old graves shows that they did not die in Mecca? Do you want a gravestone with "PROPHET ABRAHAM" written on it? Where are the graves of David or Solomon or Aaron or Moses? Does that prove they did not exist? Are you up to 18 years old? You reason like a juvenile.

truthman2012:

The Bible is not reliable yet you quoted from it. When the Bible talks about Ishmael being blessed and having twelve nations, don't you believe it? Smh!

It was merely to prove to you from sources that YOU find reliable. What the Bible says does not sway muslims either way. We have our own, superior, more reliable, better authenticated, KNOWN sources.
And they tell us that Abraham built the Kaaba with Ismail, for the worship of the One True Creator. Your belief, or lack thereof, has no bearing on anything to do with the case. Until you bring a more reliable source to disprove that fact, you are just basing your 'historicity' on hearsay. And hearsay moreover, that has no known authorship according to the same body of scholars who translate and disseminate it.

truthman2012:


Let's see the narrations.



From the above narration, we can deduce the following:

1. Abraham went and did not look back.
2. He he did not look back because allah ordered him not to look back.

Since it was allah who ordered Abraham to leave Hagar and Ishmael without looking back, how do you expect him to come visiting them again? Coming or looking back visiting them is a disobedience to allah's order. Again, why did Abraham have to relocate them? It was because Abraham was ordered by God to send them out. Why would he still be living with them?

The truth is Abraham was not in Mecca to build Kaaba. It was built by idolaters in Mecca, which housed their 360 idols including Muhammad's father's idol I-illah later called allah. It was this I-illah (allah) that demon Gabriel commanded Muhammad and muslims to worship, making them to believe it is the true God.

Again that is your personal deduction. What you are doing is building your arguments on air. Deducing and deriving nonsensical assumptions without any resort to logic. Juvenile reasoning.

I believe I have interacted with you enough. My muslim brothers and sisters are probably wondering at my gross folly at thinking that you might learn to think logically. Go in peace.

@ Abuamam

Your statement is short of intelligence. Nobody worships allah and retain his God-given intelligence. The first thing allah does is manipulate muslims brain as he did to Muhammad, tampering with his memory to make him forget revelations. No wonder they go killing, believing it will take them to heaven. Spiritual manipulations. If muslims' brain is in order, how would Allah be able to plant lies in them? Allah is an expert in manipulation and deception.

A right thinking person would know that Abraham deliberately not looking back on allah's order means he had done away with them. How would he come back against allah's instruction and build Kaaba? I pity you.

As for your muslim brothers, they have lacked ideas of what lies to tell more.

truthman2012:


This is the story from your link:



Firstly, Abraham was said to lead them to Mecca and turned back, meaning he did not stay with them. How could he have taken part in the building of Kaaba?

Secondly, Ishmael was said to be a baby still sucking, which shows he could not know Abraham and his religion very well as a baby. His mother as an Egyptian, who came from idolatry background (Egyptians were idol worshipers at that time) must have had influence on him. Worst still is the fact that his mother married him an Egyptian girl as well. This could account for the reason Kaaba was built originally for idol worship as Ishmael did not grow with the knowledge of Abraham religion.

That being apart, the story of Abraham taking Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca could not be true. The distance between Israel and Mecca is about 1500 km. Why would Abraham walk that long distance on leg to settle baby Ishmael in Mecca? Could Hagar and her small baby walk such a distance?

the link that lady posted prove a very strong points, Abraham did not build kaba, after Allah told him to go, and never look back, why will Abraham return and build the kaba, honestly,only the blood of Jesus can wash there eyes.

bn Abbas narrated:

"... Ibrahim brought her (Hajrah) and her son, Ismail while she was suckling him, to a place near the Kaaba under a tree on the spot of Zam-Zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Makkah, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ismail's mother followed him saying: "O Ibrahim! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said: "Yes". She said: "Then He will not neglect us." and she returned (to her child) while Ibrahim proceeded on his way.

On reaching the Thaniya (mountain) where they could not see him, Ibrahim faced the Kaaba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayer:

"O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks." [Surah Ibrahim 14:37]..." [Sahih Bukhari Book# 55, Hadith# 583]

Is it just me or did any other person notice the glaring lies in the hadith above?

First the quote said Abraham brought ishmael and his mother to Mecca when Ishmael was still suckling, dropped them and left. Common sense can deduce that if muslims believed that Abraham and Ishmael actually built the Kabba, then that would be much later when Ishmael must have grown up, not when he was still suckling yet this hadith said Abraham made the child and his mother sit down under tree near Kabba, as he was going he also turned and faced the Kabba while praying. And stated clearly that he set them near "thy sacred house" (that means the kabba was already a sacred house of God when Abraham and Ishmael came) Yet that place was said to be empty with no one living there.

Now the question is,
If this was Abraham's first visit and there was already a kabba for him to face and pray, who built the Kabba?

If Abraham left and didn't look back in obedience to Allah, isn't it clear he didn't build any kabba with Ishmael since Ishael was still a child who couldn't even fend for himself?

Funny a kabba was already there when Abraham came yet no one lives there.

Idon't even want to talk about the fact that Ishmael wasn't a suckling child when he was sent away. Ishmael was born to Abraham when he was 86 years old while Isaac was born when he was 100 years of age and it was after then ishmael and hagar were sent out. But that would be comparing the Bible and koran.
Now even from the Koran and hadith alone, the story didn't ad up.

This hadith reeks of contradictions!

This was one of the reasons I caution against using the hadith in my earlier post.

SalC:
Is it just me or did any other person notice the glaring lies in the hadith above?

First the quote said Abraham brought ishmael and his mother to Mecca when Ishmael was still suckling, dropped them and left. Common sense can deduce that if muslims believed that Abraham and Ishmael actually built the Kabba, then that would be much later when Ishmael must have grown up, not when he was still suckling yet this hadith said Abraham made the child and his mother sit down under tree near Kabba, as he was going he also turned and faced the Kabba while praying. And stated clearly that he set them near "thy sacred house" (that means the kabba was already a sacred house of God when Abraham and Ishmael came) Yet that place was said to be empty with no one living there.

Now the question is,
If this was Abraham's first visit and there was already a kabba for him to face and pray, who built the Kabba?

If Abraham left and didn't look back in obedience to Allah, isn't it clear he didn't build any kabba with Ishmael since Ishael was still a child who couldn't even fend for himself?

Funny a kabba was already there when Abraham came yet no one lives there.

Idon't even want to talk about the fact that Ishmael wasn't a suckling child when he was sent away. Ishmael was born to Abraham when he was 86 years old while Isaac was born when he was 100 years of age and it was after then ishmael and hagar were sent out. But that would be comparing the Bible and koran.
Now even from the Koran and hadith alone, the story didn't ad up.

This hadith reeks of contradictions!

This was one of the reasons I caution against using the hadith in my earlier post.

You are not the only one who noticed the lies, I just concentrated on the other aspects.

SalC:
Is it just me or did any other person notice the glaring lies in the hadith above?

First the quote said Abraham brought ishmael and his mother to Mecca when Ishmael was still suckling, dropped them and left. Common sense can deduce that if muslims believed that Abraham and Ishmael actually built the Kabba, then that would be much later when Ishmael must have grown up, not when he was still suckling yet this hadith said Abraham made the child and his mother sit down under tree near Kabba, as he was going he also turned and faced the Kabba while praying. And stated clearly that he set them near "thy sacred house" (that means the kabba was already a sacred house of God when Abraham and Ishmael came) Yet that place was said to be empty with no one living there.

Now the question is,
If this was Abraham's first visit and there was already a kabba for him to face and pray, who built the Kabba?

If Abraham left and didn't look back in obedience to Allah, isn't it clear he didn't build any kabba with Ishmael since Ishael was still a child who couldn't even fend for himself?

Funny a kabba was already there when Abraham came yet no one lives there.

Idon't even want to talk about the fact that Ishmael wasn't a suckling child when he was sent away. Ishmael was born to Abraham when he was 86 years old while Isaac was born when he was 100 years of age and it was after then ishmael and hagar were sent out. But that would be comparing the Bible and koran.
Now even from the Koran and hadith alone, the story didn't ad up.

This hadith reeks of contradictions!

This was one of the reasons I caution against using the hadith in my earlier post.

there next lies will be 'the hadith was fabricated,but if the same hadith speak good about Islam, then it's authentic.