There is no doubt Hamas actions were dumb and illegal, but many Israel supporters do not realize that even today (2008), land is still being forcibly taken. You can be a palestinian and have a title deed to land, and the next day jewish settlers arrive, and just start building on your land. You dare to speak out, and you meet the Israeli army.

Pls I need examples of this. Because I knew israel evacuated Gaza some months ago. So when are they taking back lands.
I sincerely hope this is not a beer parlour fabricated analysis without any credible source

The people in Gaza can't even escape to other countries or trade to better them selves. they have been hemmed in with walls, separated form the West Bank on land no one is even disputing is theirs! How can this be justice. Does anyone here really think this is a Godly or fair thing to do.

I am begining to doubt your motives. Cant I decide who enters my territory? Didnt Nigeria close the Seme border sometime back. These gazans come to my country to comit havoc what do you do in such cases Birdman.

Maybe you have to pick up maps and check why cant Gazans go through Egypt if the must travel MUST they pass through Israel if they dont have any hidden motives.

Israel loves the Hamas-Fatah split, because they hope while they are distracted, they can consolidate more land, then decimate Hamas so that a corrupt and ineffective Fatah comes back into power. This is naked colonialism, in the 21st century.

Now tell us the land Israel has been consolidating recently but I would tell you land Israel has given up to palestinians

gaza 4 life

dayokanu:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-defies-freeze-on-illegal-settlements-793685.html
http://www.imemc.org/article/58050

Unlike you, I will treat this with a FAIR hand. An increasingly growing group recognizes the double standard of letting private Israeli citizens bully legal land owners with the help of the army while preaching peace. You probably remember protests against Sharon when he tried to clear the West Bank of illegal settlements. Well, the Jewish settlers are proving to be adept spoilers in the political process even though they are in a minority. Slowly but surely, they want to drag Israel into an all out confrontation based on their interpretation of the Talmud.

The average Israeli is ready to make concessions and take away any moral power Hamas might lay claim to. I find it funny that any African would be on the side of aggressive settlers.

davidylan:

English shouldnt be a problem to you even though i seriously doubt logic isnt.

Now you read your own statement in bold again - whether the jews were a minority or majority, it doesnt nullify that there has ALWAYS been a jewish community in Israel no?

Are you thick? Who ever said there was no Jewish community at any point in time.

If you have no solid argument, shut up!

davidylan:

Ok one more thing . . . when you talk of "majority population of Israel" . . . you make the same fundamental mistake arab apologists like you DELIBERATELY prefer to make . . .

The British mandate of Palestine = Gaza + West Bank + Israel + Jordan.

Now the majority population of the mandate of Palestine was arab (which is why over 703,000 arabs populated Jordan - 5 times the size of Israel as at 1922 and 1.2 million in 1948) . . . hardly a large "majority".

You would have been correct to say arabs were the majority population in the BM of Palestine but NOT Israel.

Did you go to school? Did you get any quality education?

If you did, I will expect you to provide figures of Jewish population before determining whether a population "is hardly a large majority" or not.

What kind of lame arguments do you want to be providing? So if the Jews were just 50K, 1.2m is not a significant majority? Or if the Jews were even 400K but 380K of them were based in Jerusalem how can they lay claim to land they had to push Palestinian families away from?

Stop this dump arguments.

davidylan:

which is kind of odd because the arab claim to Gaza and the West Bank is based on their conquest of the land in 636 AD.

which is why i wonder why Israel is being forced to give up Gaza and the West Bank.

Oh sorry i forgot, one rule for others another for the jews. Talk of objectivity.

I will say it only one more time and I will pray to God you comprehend it. Land lost pre-civilisation, pre-modern times should be forgotten.

Ireland will be lunatics to start a war to take back Northern Ireland from the UK.
Mexico will be mad to start a war to take back Texas and New Mexico from the US.
Mongolia will be crazy to start a war to take back Southern Mongolia from China.

Era of conquering is no more acceptable in the modern times, so all land lost pre-modern times is lost for ever.

Please comprehend or shut up.

davidylan:

It can't be called "logic" at all because:

1. there was NO palestinian arab land now or ever before. What we had was an Ottoman empire.

2. Prior to 1948, Gaza was jewish . . . before Egypt claimed it. Judea/Samaria was jewish before Jordan claimed it in war. So just what "land" are these "palestinians" (formally known as Syrian and Jordanian arabs) demanding?

3. When the PLO was set up in 1964, why didnt they make mention of any "land"?

Lame argument!

And you are the one that has the guts to be stating: "A bit more reading up on history would be in order so you don't come here to make a fool of yourself."?

Gaza has been dominated since 1800 by Egypt and then part of Egypt since 1832, even when the Ottoman empire reconquered Gaza, a vast majority of the residents were Egyptians that had fled political turmoil in main Egypt.

This is as lame as saying Lagos is not Yoruba land because the British conquered it.

And you are always talking of revisionist history. 

idiopathic:

Sagamite,
I am puzzled at the way some Africans support the Arabs blindly despite their numerous atrocities against us. I can remember vividly how some Muslims in the north were protesting, killing and burning churches in the aftermath of the Arab Israeli war.
But, these same northerners were silent when Arab-backed militias are killing, uprooting Africans from their ancestral lands.
Sagamite, can you compare the way Africans are treated in the west compared to the Arab lands.

What muslims do in northen Nigeria has nothing to do with how I allocate justice to an Arab family in Palestine.

Just as I would not want a whiteman to judge me based on what Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe.

I try as best as possible to treat each person as an individual and remain objective, that is the quality of my self development. It might be hard sometimes especially when people have a herd mentality and group guiding principle.

idiopathic:

The same way the Arabs enslaved us and profited from a very lucrative trans-Sahara slave trade. however, revisionists would like us to believe the Arabs treated their African slaves better by sleeping with their women and turning their men into eunuchs.
More black Africans have been killed, raped in darfur and Mauritania than in palestine.
Yet, the Arab league currently crying foul now have constantly blocked all attempts by the UN to pass any meaningful resolution aimed at solving this problem and alleviating the suffering of our African brothers.

Unfortunately, I am not going to judge a human being living today based on what his forefathers did 300 years ago.

I try and treat them as an individual. I will surely condemn the whole prevalent muslim ideology of "I have to support my fellow muslim anywhere in the world and never condemn them even when they commit atrocities against a kaffir". That is why they are seen as the worst and most violent major religion on earth.

Their leaders need to clean up.

birdman:

I urge every one on this thread to read up a little on the facts.

There is no doubt Hamas actions were dumb and illegal, but many Israel supporters do not realize that even today (2008), land is still being forcibly taken. You can be a palestinian and have a title deed to land, and the next day jewish settlers arrive, and just start building on your land. You dare to speak out, and you meet the Israeli army.

The people in Gaza can't even escape to other countries  or trade to better them selves. they have been hemmed in with walls,  separated form the West Bank on land no one is even disputing is theirs! How can this be justice. Does anyone here really think this is a Godly or fair thing to do.

Israel loves the Hamas-Fatah split, because they hope while they are distracted, they can consolidate more land, then decimate Hamas so that a corrupt and ineffective Fatah comes back into power. This is naked colonialism, in the 21st century.

And davidylan was arguing with me that it is not a prison.

It is also a place where someone can just take your land and means of livelihood with the support of his powerful government and their allies without no recourse to a justice system. And they (the Jews) wonder why they can't live in peace.

You come to my house and take just my plasma TV and see whether I wouldn't suicide bomb you. 

dayokanu:

please I need examples of this. Because I knew israel evacuated Gaza some months ago. So when are they taking back lands.
I sincerely hope this is not a beer parlour fabricated analysis without any credible source

I am begining to doubt your motives. can't I decide who enters my territory? Didnt Nigeria close the Seme border sometime back. These gazans come to my country to comit havoc what do you do in such cases Birdman.

Maybe you have to pick up maps and check why can't Gazans go through Egypt if the must travel MUST they pass through Israel if they don't have any hidden motives.

Now tell us the land Israel has been consolidating recently but I would tell you land Israel has given up to palestinians

Surely you must be very young?

Enter Israel's territory? Israel giving up land to the Palestinians?

You migrate to my area with guns and chase away my people, massacred villagers in droves and took their land and you feel justified to say I am entering your territory. [Although the barbaric Arabs started the killings until the Jews started defending then turned to retaliation with greater force]

You expect me to rejoice or be grateful that you gave me back SOME of my land you forcefully and unlawfully took?

Are you suggesting that because you have been poorly treated by Arabs, the palestinians deserve the same? If maltreating Darfuris is wrong, then maltreating Palestinians must be wrong too.[/color]

[color=Black]
Birdman, I am not suggesting anything buy only questioning why we don't here this outcry from muslims and Arabs when black africans are being massacred and uprooted from their lands in Darfur, Mauritania etc.
More black Africans have died in Darfur and more land stolen by the arabs in Sudan.
Where were the protests against these injustices?
The hypocritical Arab league blocked all UN sanctions meant to ease the sufferings of the Africans but turn around to blame USA for supporting Israel.

Sagamite, your arguments appear intelligent to those who don't understand the reasoning of the average Arab. You and i know that the Arabs are only using this issue of land as a convenient excuse.
I can bet my life that even if the Jews should vacate all the Arab lands and squeeze themselves into Haifa or Telaviv, the Arabs would still continue to attack them. They do not want the existence of a Jew sh infidel state as their neighbour.
If this conflict has been between the Jews and any other religion, they would have found a compromise.
Unfortunately, Islam does not believe in compromise but always aim to complete dominance of the minorities in their midst.

To buttress my point that Islam does not believe in compromise, just take a look at most of the troubled spots globally:
1) Former Yugoslavia
2) Southern Thailand
3) Philippines
4) Kashmir
5) Chechen
6) Most of the northern caucuses of Russia
7) Muslim dominated region of western China
Sudan
9) Somalia
These are just a few of the countries where Muslims are in the minority and have taken up arms against the state. They find it difficult co-existing with other civilizations except they are oppressing and dominating you.
Take a look at the welfare of non-Muslims in Muslim countries and contrast it with the way Muslims are prospering in predominantly Christan and Hindu nations.
Yet, the Muslims keep complaining of marginalization.

idiopathic:

Are you suggesting that because you have been poorly treated by Arabs, the palestinians deserve the same? If maltreating Darfuris is wrong, then maltreating Palestinians must be wrong too.[/color]

[color=Black]
Birdman, I am not suggesting anything buy only questioning why we don't here this outcry from muslims and Arabs when black africans are being massacred and uprooted from their lands in Darfur, Mauritania etc.
More black Africans have died in Darfur and more land stolen by the arabs in Sudan.
Where were the protests against these injustices?
The hypocritical Arab league blocked all UN sanctions meant to ease the sufferings of the Africans but turn around to blame USA for supporting Israel.

AGREED!!!

idiopathic:

Sagamite, your arguments appear intelligent to those who don't understand the reasoning of the average Arab. You and i know that the Arabs are only using this issue of land as a convenient excuse.
I can bet my life that even if the Jews should vacate all the Arab lands and squeeze themselves into Haifa or Telaviv, the Arabs would still continue to attack them. They do not want the existence of a Jew sh infidel state as their neighbour.
If this conflict has been between the Jews and any other religion, they would have found a compromise.
Unfortunately, Islam does not believe in compromise but always aim to complete dominance of the minorities in their midst.

Probably and mostly true.

I have to admit, you can't help but feel some level of satisfaction to see Israel deal with those that promise violence and death if you mess with "Allawu Akbar" instead of finding peaceful ways of dealing with issues and be tolerant of "infidels".

But at the same time, I have seen cases where Israel can be regarded as going too far and being inhumane. That is where I have to be objective and withdraw my support.

By and large, I am in support of Israel.

They have a right to live in the area.
They should live there without intimidation.

i suggest you all just ignore Sagamite. We have way too many illiterates with God complexes here who think that by posting long long tomes they sound intelligent.

@ Birdman,

birdman:

I urge every one on this thread to read up a little on the facts.

There is no doubt Hamas actions were dumb and illegal, but many Israel supporters do not realize that even today (2008), land is still being forcibly taken.

This really is all you need to know that most of this arab apologists are dumb liars. Show us the land being "forcibly taken" if you care to substantiate ur claims.

davidylan:

i suggest you all just ignore Sagamite. We have way too many illiterates with God complexes here who think that by posting long long tomes they sound intelligent.

Davidylan, this is one of the numerous conjectures that shows you are a slowpoke.

Where did you see me refer to any God in ANY of my post?

As a matter of fact I follow no religion as to me it is utter rubbish.

Actually my religion is objectelligence (worship of objectivity and intelligence) and I am the Rev. Father, Pope, Alfa, Rabbi, Grand Iman of the religion. And just in case you want to join, note that my tithe is 80% (no more, no less).

If you have no argument, SHUT THE F*CK UP!

I knew you were obviously out of your depth when you started arguing with me but I was trying to be gentle.

Your tank has run out and now you are resorting to conjectures.

See my signature!!!

God-complex is an english phrase. it has nothing to do with ur religious affiliation, slowpoke. 

i saw ur siggy, its the most disgraceful lie i've ever read in my entire life. no kidding. 

you consider yourself intellectual? And you don't know that 1948 and 1967 are the 2 cornerstones that underpin the Gaza crisis today?

Intellectual my ass!

@Sagamite,

Like I said before, you are just putting yourself into a bind with your arguments. It is not at all consistent.  Let's check out the following:
"I will say it only one more time and I will pray to God you comprehend it. Land lost pre-civilisation, pre-modern times should be forgotten.", and the following

"You expect me to rejoice or be grateful that you gave me back SOME of my land you forcefully and unlawfully took?"

You will have to define to us all, what you mean by pre-civilisation and pre-modern times in order to put your arguments in perspective.  If we go by the generally acceptable focal point in history now refered to as the Common Era, CE as opposed to AD, then we can rightly deduce that the undisputed owner of the land in question are the Jews.  As early as 70 CE, Josephus, a respected historian of his day, clearly wrote about the occupation of that land by the Romans, and how the Jews fought to the death to defend their homeland.   So do we consider 70 CE a modern time?

Let us also look at this on a personal level. If your Grandparents bequeth a land to your parents, who in turn give you the land, do you think you should just let it go if others settle on the land just becuase you moved abroad? Do you have the right to go back to your ancestral land, say in Naija after you've soujourned in the UK all your adult life?  At what point do you think you have no rightful claim over the land anymore?  These I believe, are legitimate questions.

Oh, you mean that cornerstones like your claim that "Egypt only annexed Gaza in 1948"?

Now that to me does not suggest intelligence.

What underpins the Palestine crisis is that Jews came back to claim land that they lost 2000 years earlier and the Arabs were too ignorant to accept people from other faiths to have a significant presence in the middle east.

You are out of your depth, keep quiet.

Tayo-D:

@Sagamite,

Like I said before, you are just putting yourself into a bind with your arguments. It is not at all consistent.  Let's check out the following:
"I will say it only one more time and I will pray to God you comprehend it. Land lost pre-civilisation, pre-modern times should be forgotten.", and the following

"You expect me to rejoice or be grateful that you gave me back SOME of my land you forcefully and unlawfully took?"

You will have to define to us all, what you mean by pre-civilisation and pre-modern times in order to put your arguments in perspective.  If we go by the generally acceptable focal point in history now refered to as the Common Era, CE as opposed to AD, then we can rightly deduce that the undisputed owner of the land in question are the Jews.  As early as 70 CE, Josephus, a respected historian of his day, clearly wrote about the occupation of that land by the Romans, and how the Jews fought to the death to defend their homeland.   So do we consider 70 CE a modern time?

Let us also look at this on a personal level. If your Grandparents bequeth a land to your parents, who in turn give you the land, do you think you should just let it go if others settle on the land just becuase you moved abroad? Do you have the right to go back to your ancestral land, say in Naija after you've soujourned in the UK all your adult life?  At what point do you think you have no rightful claim over the land anymore?  These I believe, are legitimate questions.

Tayo, definitely pre-civilisation and pre-modern times will definitely be hard to define comprehensively as it varies across different parts of the world and no scale to measure civilisation or modernity has been devised. I will not be devising the scale here and now, as that will take a couple of years of Phd work to get an acceptable scale.

It takes a lot of judgement to come to terms to what it is but it does not take much to define what it excludes. The premise I base it on is the creation of recognised statehoods, acceptance of signed national agreements, increased migration control, acceptance and record keeping of title deeds etc. Virtually the whole world can me regarded as part of an extensive span of civilisation my 1948 so anybody grabbing land in 1948 is not comparable to land grab in 636 AD.

In regards to your question, if my ancestors have not provided any valid title deeds and the government of the area have developed a structured land ownership system and allocated the land to someone lawfully, then I am afraid I can't lay claim to that land.

It is just like me hearing that one of my great, great, great, great, greater grandfather owned a piece of land that was forcefully taken from him in Benin and try and go and reclaim it now, would you not think I am mad and irrational?

The Jews disappeared for over 2000 years with only a few owning land mainly in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. They can't just come back and take the land from those that have owned it for over 600 years and expect peace.

Sagamite:

Oh, you mean that cornerstones like your claim that "Egypt only annexed Gaza in 1948"?

Now that to me does not suggest intelligence.

What underpins the Palestine crisis is that Jews came back to claim land that they lost 2000 years earlier and the Arabs were too ignorant to accept people from other faiths to have a significant presence in the middle east.

You are out of your depth, keep quiet.

That again explains your breathtaking ignorance on this matter. continously crying that others are out of their depth wont help you out of your problems. Even Tayo-D can see though much of your noise.

1. Let us assume for a minute that the problem is that jews came to reclaim land they lost 2000yrs ago, it begs the question why the same arabs are curiously silent on the more brazen thievery . . . the bequeathing of Jordan (5 times the size of Israel) to the sheikhs of Mecca.

- to an intellectual (not noise makers like sagamu), that suggests the problem is more than land but religion.

2. Ok lets assume that Gaza is "occupied" . . . the question then is WHY are the arab palestinians fighting for a land that Israel took from Egypt in 1967 and WHY is Egypt refusing to take back Gaza?

3. Just for one minute . . . lets say that it is true that your silly claim that the problem in the middle east is that the jews are coming to reclaim land they lost . . . why should the arabs want to reclaim a land they lost in the 1967 war?

Sagamu . . . u're over ur head here.

davidylan:

That again explains your breathtaking ignorance on this matter. continously crying that others are out of their depth wont help you out of your problems. Even Tayo-D can see though much of your noise.

1. Let us assume for a minute that the problem is that jews came to reclaim land they lost 2000yrs ago, it begs the question why the same arabs are curiously silent on the more brazen thievery . . . the bequeathing of Jordan (5 times the size of Israel) to the sheikhs of Mecca.

- to an intellectual (not noise makers like sagamu), that suggests the problem is more than land but religion.

2. Ok lets assume that Gaza is "occupied" . . . the question then is WHY are the arab palestinians fighting for a land that Israel took from Egypt in 1967 and WHY is Egypt refusing to take back Gaza?

3. Just for one minute . . . lets say that it is true that your silly claim that the problem in the middle east is that the jews are coming to reclaim land they lost . . . why should the arabs want to reclaim a land they lost in the 1967 war?

Sagamu . . . u're over ur head here.

This guy, you are really sounding stupid.

Surely you don't expect me to address you questions that I have addressed earlier again.

If a man tells his Igalla man guest to get the hell out of his house because of the way he is looking at his wife but the same man allows an Efik man guest of his bang the shi*t out of his wife, as a policeman responsible for enforcing the law, what is your business of his motive when you are requested to kick the Igalla man out?

I hope that Ras analogy is at par with your thinking.

Sagamite:

I hope that Ras analogy is at par with your thinking.

the analogy makes absolutely no sense. The difference between my position and yours is that you want to ignore fundamental issues while bleating about peripheral problems like rocket attacks and HAMAS.
Until the root of the conflict is painfully addressed, the cycle of middle east violence will continue. No matter how much land Israel gives up it will continue to be attacked until the hordes of Islam force them out of the middle east entirely after which they will refocus their divided attention on European hypocrites like you.

On the flipside, i am glad history makes no sense to you. Kinda puts to bed the laughable idea that you are an intellectual.

davidylan:

the analogy makes absolutely no sense. The difference between my position and yours is that you want to ignore fundamental issues while bleating about peripheral problems like rocket attacks and HAMAS.
Until the root of the conflict is painfully addressed, the cycle of middle east violence will continue. No matter how much land Israel gives up it will continue to be attacked until the hordes of Islam force them out of the middle east entirely after which they will refocus their divided attention on European hypocrites like you.

On the flipside, i am glad history makes no sense to you. kind of puts to bed the laughable idea that you are an intellectual.

Uhmmm!!!

Where did I focus on rocket attacks and Hamas in ANY of my arguments?

You are deluded. Conjecture after conjecture (I refer you to my signature again).

You are out of your depth, Son. Give up!

Sagamite:


Uhmmm!!!

Where did I focus on rocket attacks and Hamas in ANY of my arguments?

You are deluded. Conjecture after conjecture (I refer you to my signature again).

You are out of your depth, Son. Give up!

anyone can dream up a signature, it doesnt have to bear any factual relevance to the writer.

Rather than give conjecture i have taken you to history 101 class . . . i know u'd rather chase shadows.

So I take it you accept you are a conjecture thrower as you are not even denying it.

Sagamite:

So I take it you accept you are a conjecture thrower as you are not even denying it.

Sagamu, u're talking about "conjecture" when i just took you to history 101 class? Pay attention, that's why you fail your exams.