sometimes its not easy to ignore .

_{wondering which one she falls under - "stony hearts" or "rebellious spirits"}

nilla:

sometimes its not easy to ignore .

_{wondering which one she falls under - "stony hearts" or "rebellious spirits"}

Not easy to ignore? and you claim we are making no headway?

Dont worry, you dont fall under any.

@ olabsy,

concerning ur claims about the Bible's authencity, i gotta state to you a couple of things. Pls answer them straight-forward and no inconsistent writing.

1.  muhammad received his assumed Revelations in a cave. He couldn't read or write, so he dictated the verses to scholars. If the Qu'ran was written down under dictations, there's every possibility there'd be textual errors.

2. And if there are textual errors, then the Qu'ran's corrupted

3. If u ask for the original text of the Bible, then i in the same way ask for the original manuscripts of the Qu'ran. And if u can't provide the original, the why should i believe in ur claims about Bible's original txt corruption?

4. Furthermore, it is important to note the collected books, Hadith and the rest that make up the   Qu'ran was not completed or gathered up into the Qu'ran during muhammad's lifetime. And there were some texts destroyed. If some texts were destroyed from the originals, then ur Qu'ran isn't infallible, permit me to use that.

More coming from me. . .

nilla:

ok i don't kow whether your making headway. you guys keep putting up long posts with sources, quotations, etc. its been on for a long time now.
I ain't myopic
Keep up the good work preaching the word of God.
_{Haven't read most of your other posts but what i can see so far is your different from some of the others preaching.}Bless you too

Dear Nilla,
Hi, I know you are not myopic dear, just an expression but,,,,,,ma bad!! Anyway, great it's difficult to ignore because we are speaking the truth about Christ and the danger that Islam particularly pose to the rest of the world. Thanks for the enouragement. God bless u real good!

@gbade.x: We have answered these questions before. However, because, Islam is not a religion that allows its adherents to show arrogance, then here is the answer to your first questions. The Qur'an was not revealed to Muhammad in one shot nor all of it in a cave. This is the assertion of the scholars of christendom, eg Havila, Babyosisi on Nairaland and your Mutamushrikuun around the world. The first revelation is in the cave of Hira andit is only 5 verses! There is a period of 13 years of revelations in Makka and 10 years after in Madina. The cave that you are talking about is not near madina. Just this last sentence destroys your statement.

Second answer: The revelations were dictated, as soon as possible. The copies are distributed to all that wants to have it. They learnt it and use it in Salah, other functions, like in marriages, naming ceremonies, funerals, meeting and departing from each other or one another. In every Month of Ramadan, in all the 23 years, what ever was revealed was Qur'an and that was recited one time each to each other by Muhammad and Gabrael. The 23rd year was different, it was recited twice by each entity. That was the year that Muhammad died, without ever reaching the next Ramadan, after Hajj. From all of these, there are various quantity of Qur'an amongs the Muslims, from very few revelation to complete volume of revelation of the Qur'an. However, the most important thing was that there were over several hundreds of muslim men and women who memorized the complete Qur'an during the lifetime of Muhammad. Everyone was a check for the other in the proper recitation of the Qur'an. Today the Youngest can correct the Oldest in the recitation of Qur'an, even in Salah. There is no room for error, unlike your ever changing and never stable Bible!

Answer number three: There is a book titled; Introduction to the Science of Qur'an, by Jamal Sarabozzo, in English and thThe choice by Ahmad Deedat, both in English. From them, you will find picture of the patchments of the Original. Also, in The national Musium of Turkey and I believe that The Musium of London have a complete Al Qur'an and even patchments from the original revelation. You must know that Qur'an is really an oral tradition project. I was very important that people memorize it as much as they can and it is a life long effort, constantly trying to be better in the memorization. It is unlike the Bible.

THe fourth Answer: Al Qur'an is different from Hadith. Qur'an is a complete revelation that answers all questions and there is no Hadith in it. It is God, alone that Speaks in the Qur'an. Hadith is a separate book consisting of saying and action and what Muhammad bin Abdallah (AS), allows from his companions (RA). As stated about Qur'an, the first 'Binded Book form' of Qur'an, was done , under great restistance in the time of the first Khalifah, Abu Bakr. They made it into a single book from all the already written down original revelation and the reassurance/surety of recitation of each verse by many who memorize it. So what you have are two sources agreing/complimenting each other so as to be sure that whatever was available as Qur'an in the lifetime of muhammad is what you have after him and it is what you have today! The complete Book form that was made at the first during the life of Abu Bakr was made because the pagan tribes of Arabia were killing a great number of this group of people who memorized the complete Qur'an. The first Copy was left in the custody of Afsat, the Mother of Believers (RA). In the life of the third Khalifah, Uthman bin Affan, the Muslim community had grown beyond arabia penisula. Hence, it was necessary to have others who were not arabs have a book that they can memorize from. Hence, from the origin Book form of the Qur'an with Afsat, 4 accent based was produced, all to be known as Uthmani Qur'an. The accents were, Makka/Madina, Basra, Bagdad and Koffa accents. It was after this last development that all the uncompleted remnants were collected and burnt.


I hope I answered your questions. Please ask your questions.

Havila:

Dear Nilla,
Hi, I know you are not myopic dear, just an expression but,,,,,,ma bad!! Anyway, great it's difficult to ignore because we are speaking the truth about Christ and the danger that Islam particularly pose to the rest of the world. Thanks for the enouragement. God bless u real good!

I guess i just have to keep reading what you guys have to say then, cos i dont see what danger islam poses to the world.

meanwhile I'm catching all the blessings your throwing my way  

olabowale:

@gbade.x: The first revelation is in the cave of Hira andit is only 5 verses! There is a period of 13 years of revelations in Makka and 10 years after in Madina. The cave that you are talking about is not near madina. Just this last sentence destroys your statement.

@All,
Actually, I know of another person who also received his "revelations" in a cave; he was called the "Mad man of Gadara" in the bible; he was of the country of Gadarenes and possesed by unclean spirits living in caves and cutting himself because of the revelations he was receving from his 'masters'. (Read Mark Chapter 5) but when he was confronted by the Lord of Righteousness Jesus Christ, the demons have no choice but to rush out into a herd of swines (pigs or pork) around and they perished.
Do you notice similarities with Muhammed's story? note the key words or phrases:
(1)Caves;
( 2) Possesed by demons (muhammed said he thought he was possesed by demons; he was probably right, with what's in the Quran);
(3) Herd of Swines i.e pigs/porks (are you still wondering why he hate pigs/pork)

Let him that have an inner ear listen! the time is nigh.

@havila,

lol, hold ur fort down playa!! Like my peops up in ikd used ta say, " no gawking in texas"!!

@Havila: Are you for real? Did you hear from any muslims, ever that Muhammad (AS) ever cut or other self punishment,ever? You said you are a Doctor, think like one. Your thinking is very narrow and almost as narrow as a single ray of light. For an ordinary life, who all of a sudden say an angle, in his full angelic form, occupying the whole horizon, will be shocking, to say the least. After the first revelation, did you ever hear that Muhammad (AS) had any unusual behaviour that does not befit the office of Prophethood? He lived 23 years from the first revelation to the last. Please Havila, you will be wasting every right thinking person time if this is your style. If Jesus were to have been alive when Muhammad (AS to both) was preaching, Jesus will have no option to follow the Messenger of Allah. The same rule applied to Moses (AS), as well!

I will give you the verse in the Qur'an that provide this information by The Lord of All things.

Having realised the deep emotional and spiritual attachements we all have for our respective faiths, its now reasonably binding upon us to tread carefully inorder to maintain the courteous relationship we are enjoying here. i really don't like christianity and i think it doesnt make sense to be a christian but i respect people freedom to choose. God who created all of us gave us that responsibilty and accountability clause in all our conducts and one day we ve got to stand before Him to hear our accounts.

But i also noticed the christians in our midst are not ready to even understand the tenets of Islam as it is but they d rather hold on to their readymade perception of Islam despite our willingness to explain knotty issues. We ve got to believe that once in a while we may make error of judgement and we should be open to corrections. Bro Olabowale and me can't harbour terrorism and violent tendencies and still hang around with you appealing for peace and harmony. I don't think any else can have more sentiments about islam than my bro Olabowale. I am convinced beyond doubt that he is a very knowledgeable muslim and his conducts also are in line with islamic provisions. Terrorism is never islamic and the historical battles were never the premise for modern day violence and destructions. Myself and Olabowale strongly condemn any acts of terror carried out in the name of Islam

@ Belloti: May Allah the Almighty continue to guide all of us. May He make your path and your conduct in the earth pleasing to Him. May His Light shine upon you and your family and all that you Love. May Allah reward all your efforts and blot out all your sins. In the day of Judgement, may you be considered as a Sahabah of Muhammad (AS). Amin.

I have thought of stopping wasting my time with this back and forth madness. If there is a topic, people will almost go into tangent with their entries, ibstead staying focused on the topic, regardless of being for or against it, state you relevant views and there is no need for confusion. No one can change the mind of a person in the matter of religion. Allah says that He is the One that can make anyone a Muslim or not, being the Only One that knows the heart.

You will think that having been matriculated in a highly specialised descipline will at least provide some window for people to research out information about issues that are domain to our time. To talk about Al Qur'an, one needs to know about the collection of its verses and the whos, whys, hows, wheres and applications within the Muhammad (AS) and his companions (RA), men and women, all of them together.

Allah says that 'And I did not creat Jinns and Mankind, except that they Worship Me" The African Christians, especially the Nigerians have taken their hatred to the extreme, that it is bordering on Madness and completely out of reality. The only reality is God. It is He alone that we should put our trust in, while we should fear His punishment, but we should know that His Mercy abound and He is ready to forgive, always.

Allah says in Suratul Al Imran , verse 81, that He took covenant from the prophet who He gave a book and wisdom that if His Messenger comes, while this prophet is still alive and the Messenger is preaching and confirms what is given the prophet (authetic information and wisdom given ti the prophet), will the prophet believe and aid the Messenger? The prophets all said yes. As the covenant of God is binding on each of the prophets (AS), God is the Real Witness on each of them, Musa and Isa are part of these prophets. It is no wonder that when Umar (RA) picked up Taurah to read and find relevant information that conformed within the already known information within the young Muslim community (We must realise that if Umar had gotten any information from the Taurah and that information was new and contrary to Islam, Umar would not have been happy as it was the description of the state of expression in this case).

But the Muslims, Umar included, had in their mist The Messenger Muhammad. He was given then fresh and current information from God, it was then incumbant up them not to source out information from what is old and have had entries of corruption. No wonder that the Messenger was unhappy and surmoned the community together where he told them that if Musa were to be alive, and he knows that Muhammad was preaching, Musa will hurry to Muhammad. Musa will have no shoice in the matter except to follow the leadership and support the ministry of Muhammad. This will definately apply to Isa bin mariam (AS to all of them)

In AlQur'an, Allah, joined Muhammad name with His Own Name; Muhammad Rasulullah. We need to be sincere and if we can not write thought provoking material to support our view, then lets leave it alone. Regardless of our effort, Allah (GOD) is alway incontrol.

Jazakallah Olabowale, i appreciate your prayers. May Almighty God give you the strength to continue with the great work and my God give our friends here the wisdom to atleast understand our view points. Amen. Although Havila said am a politician but i got to say i enjoy these exchanges so much and i greatly missed them whenever i travel down to my village in zamfara. Babyosisi, David and Havila are wonderful guys and very intelligent. i always wished they are on my side too. Unfortunately, from the way it stand, there is still a long way to go.

What really amuse me is that for someone to be convinced so much that a very humane religion like my beautiful islam could have anything to do with terror. i agree battles were fought to spread the message which was basically the order of the day in those periods but even then our holy prophets encourage the signing of a lot of treaties with non-muslims to enable peaceful co-existence. How can anyone think that i can raise my hand to hurt anyone justifiably. i dont think so. we have so much love around us and we pray one day peace shall return to middle east too.

olabowale:

@Havila:
(1) Are you for real? Did you hear from any muslims, ever that Muhammad (AS) ever cut or other self punishment,ever?
(2) If Jesus were to have been alive when Muhammad (AS to both) was preaching, Jesus will have no option to follow the Messenger of Allah. The same rule applied to Moses (AS), as well! I will give you the verse in the Qur'an that provide this information by The Lord of All things.

Olabowale,
Response to No.1: In your very "broad-minded" thinking (indeed!!), you've shown the root cause of your constant offtopic rambles. What I did above is know in qualitative research as comparative or thematic analysis. There is power in the wisdom of observation of consistencies in themes: the themes of the story of the "mad man of Gadara's" life in the caves around the hills of Gadarenes country is similar to the 'habitation of muhammed in the caves to receive revelations' from,,,,,,,,,who? So we just picked up the very similar themes between, compare them and inferences are made. If you read well you will see I did not say Mo. cut himself; so why do you always read with such an up-side down mentality? You always come out looking rather uninformed and over-estimated.

Response to No.2: Don't bother providing any quotation from your quran to back up a stupid submission. "If Jesus were to be alive,,,,," Yes he is alive, well and kicking; If you really really want to know what Jesus would do why don't you look at what Jesus is doing right NOW in the Islamic nations and all over the world: with millions accepting Him as the Lord and Saviour to the anger of Islamic fascist; why dont you look at what His Children/Disciples called Christians are doing now rejecting the exposing the "Style and Lies" of Islam for what it really is. The evidence is there before your very eyes but you rather will bury your head in a rubbish concoted tales of hedonistic wickedness called Quran. C'mon, wake up!!!

belloti:

But i also noticed the christians in our midst are not ready to even understand the tenets of Islam as it is but they d rather hold on to their readymade perception of Islam despite our willingness to explain knotty issues. We ve got to believe that once in a while we may make error of judgement and we should be open to corrections. Bro Olabowale and me can't harbour terrorism and violent tendencies and still hang around with you appealing for peace and harmony.

Nice Speech Belloti,
How else do you expect the world to understand the tenets of Islam other than: reading your scriptures; looking at the life and teachings of your acclaimed prophet; looking at the life and behaviours of the believers/followers of your faith, etc? The world has done that and evaluated the religion, what you are seeing now globally is the result of such "understanding" becasue it is very clear that ISLAM IS A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER to the peace of the world; danger to human freedom and liberty; danger to women and children; danger to freedom of speech and thought; an instrument of oppression; and danger to the salvation of the soul most importantly.
Do you think we are still living in the time and ages when only the pastors reads and interprete the Bible for example, No, we individually develop a relationship with God through his teachings in addition to learning, bro.
Well, you might think "it does not make sense to be a christian", that's not surprising because, listen to this from the book of 1st Corinthians 1 vs 27: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." Also 1st Coringthians 2 vs 14 especially relevant to your statement: "But the natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This is why our prayers are with you that your eyes of understanding might be opened to the things of the spirit of God.

@Havila: Assumption, there are approximately 6.5 Billion people on earth today. There is about 1.5 Billion of them who are muslims. let then understand that there are 180 countries out of about 184 that you will findMuslims. Lets use countries which have small population of Muslims, eg Russia, China, Equador, America, Norway. In these countries, since the infamous 911, are the Muslim population growing, remaining unchange or dwindling? You tell me. Do you want to talk about England, or where? You want to talk about your country, Nigeria, probably you are an Ekiti man, we can talk about that. If Islam is already in Igbo land and growing, Alhamdulillah inside and outside Nigeria, do you know what will happen, 100 years from now? You are not making any real sense.

You think you know about Jesus, you do not beause your concept of him is off the chart! You know an entity when you give the acculade that is due to that entity, without deminishing or adding to it. The Jews reduced Jesus to nothing, but the christian exaggerated hisposition. It is Islam that honors him even defending his mother!

olabowale:

@Havila: Assumption, there are approximately 6.5 Billion people on earth today. There is about 1.5 Billion of them who are muslims. let then understand that there are 180 countries out of about 184 that you will findMuslims. Lets use countries which have small population of Muslims, eg Russia, China, Equador, America, Norway. In these countries, since the infamous 911, are the Muslim population growing, remaining unchange or dwindling? You tell me. Do you want to talk about England, or where? You want to talk about your country, Nigeria, probably you are an Ekiti man, we can talk about that. If Islam is already in Igbo land and growing, Alhamdulillah inside and outside Nigeria, do you know what will happen, 100 years from now? You are not making any real sense.

Your usual delusional ramblings; keep making unsubstantiatable and irrational claims while the truth is confronting you head on but your anger is blinding you from seeing it.

olabowale:

@Havila: Assumption, there are approximately 6.5 Billion people on earth today. There is about 1.5 Billion of them who are muslims. let then understand that there are 180 countries out of about 184 that you will findMuslims. Lets use countries which have small population of Muslims, eg Russia, China, Equador, America, Norway. In these countries, since the infamous 911, are the Muslim population growing, remaining unchange or dwindling? You tell me. Do you want to talk about England, or where? You want to talk about your country, Nigeria, probably you are an Ekiti man, we can talk about that. If Islam is already in Igbo land and growing, Alhamdulillah inside and outside Nigeria, do you know what will happen, 100 years from now? You are not making any real sense.

O, the muslim population is growing? You are very right, with muslims marrying 4 wives, numerous concubines and an uncountable number of temporary marriages, it is not difficult to see where the "growing" is coming from. Include massive immigration to that list and we know why muslims are in the majority, it has nothing to do with a heartfelt conviction!

olabowale:

You think you know about Jesus, you do not beause your concept of him is off the chart! You know an entity when you give the acculade that is due to that entity, without deminishing or adding to it. The Jews reduced Jesus to nothing, but the christian exaggerated hisposition. It is Islam that honors him even defending his mother!

Quote from: olabowale on November 22, 2006, 10:15 PM

Now from your Bible, we find that from youth Jesus was a rabble rouser. Remember when he turned upside down the tables of the Exchangers. How old was he and how far along was his ministry? Remember, again that towrds the end of his ministry, he had COMMANDED his followers, Peter, Mark, Luke, etc (The 12 Apostles, a group that never included Saul/Paul at any time), to sell their cloaks and buy Swords instead, istruments of warfare. What was the purpose of the injuctions, except to prepare for conflicts.

In sincerity, Jesus was not the meek individual nor did he encourage his followers to be as the picture later developed by the Bible writers.

You are a prime example in hypocrisy! Is this how Islam "honors" Jesus? By refering to HIM as a rabble rouser? And since when did Jesus ever require "defending" and "honor" from anyone let alone murderers who deny HIS saving grace?

My goodness. The fact is very clear that Jesus is a great prophet of Islam, a messenger of Allah sent to mankind with a beautiful message. But the confusion now is when did he now become God?. he was such a nice young servant of the Lord born miraculously by our dear virgin Mary, how do you even think we can deny him?. We understand his messages and we believe he was sent by God like our dear prophet Muhammad (SAW).

We just dont believe any human being irrespective of his spiritual elevation can suddenly become God. Jesus want us to be good servants of the Lord, good neighbours to one another, love and be loved, just like our Holy prophet Muhammad (SAW). You can never be a full muslim except you acknowledge and fully accept all these facts. But definitely Jesus was not and is not God because God was never a human being and can never be one.

Please understand our view point.

@belloti n olabowale,

Then pls understand ours also. Look i've said it before, and i'll say it again. you can't use Islam to explain Christianity!! You keep imposing Islamic understandings upon Biblical texts and then complain about them in light of how you interprete them! If you want understanding and knowledge about a religion, then you seek it from that perspective and not yours!!

Furthermore, it has come to my notice that, concluding from posts on threads, you muslims don't understand the Trinity doctrine and the Hypostatic union i.e. Jesus being God and man at the same time, and in this light the fact that Jesus is the Son of God.

Now belloti seeing that u sorta objective, i beg and implore u to read these Bible passages concerning the Hypostatic Union: Col. 2:9, John 14:28 and also Phil. 25:8. Pls read them and understand them from the Christian perspective!

And u can always ask questions from any of us.  

Now back to the topic. Is terrorism a muslim problem? Sadly, yes it is. Reading from various posts of muslims on this thread and similar ones, when confronted with this assertion, the muslims generally perceive it as asking, " Are all muslims terrorists?" . Pls, take care to note that the question is if it is a muslim problem and NOT if all muslims are terrorists!

Now, why do i say it is a muslim problem? Because within the Islamic community, there are fanatics who perpertrate evil and kill innocent souls who are guilty for not belonging to their religion and as such, have to be exterminated. Terrorists who kill in the name of Allah and justify their annihilations with the Koran. If u want proof, then history and world events are there staring you wide in the face. Just go to CNN or BBC or any other News agency, every online news agency on the internet e.g. Google news, and not a day passes by without hearing a suicide bomber killed a number of people, all in the name of Allah. It's a cankerworm that has eaten deeply into Islam and can't be ignored

I just saw something from my previous which i don't like. I never wrote "I'm jobless" and don't know how that was inserted into my post. Now, i don't wanna start accusing, but if it has anything to do with the Admin, then i must say that's an abuse of power. I don't like it and feel offended by that insertion.

belloti:

My goodness. The fact is very clear that Jesus is a great prophet of Islam,

By what "facts"? What "facts" did you present to lead you to this warped conclusion that could only have emanated from the pit of hell?

belloti:

a messenger of Allah sent to mankind with a beautiful message. But the confusion now is when did he now become God?. he was such a nice young servant of the Lord born miraculously by our dear virgin Mary, how do you even think we can deny him?. We understand his messages and we believe he was sent by God like our dear prophet Muhammad (SAW).

1. Is the "Jesus as a messenger of Allah" theory not merely based on the words of an itinerant 12th century warmonger? Did muslims exist in the time of Jesus?

2. And since when did muslims begin to claim the virgin mary as theirs? Was Mary a muslim too?

Where really do you get all these lies from? First you claimed Jesus is a highly "honored prophet" of Allah, next Olabowale refers to HIm as a rabble rouser! Which do we believe? Is this really all about Jesus as a "prophet" or more about a desperate attempt to rubbish Christianity? As much as muslims hypocritically mouth the "Jesus is a dear Islamic prophet" nonsense, i note with a sense of foreboding that while Mohammed and other "prophets" are prefixed with SAW and have "holy prophet" before their names, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ is merely typed with no iota of importance linked to him at all! so much for prophethood!

belloti:

We just don't believe any human being irrespective of his spiritual elevation can suddenly become God. Jesus want us to be good servants of the Lord, good neighbours to one another, love and be loved, just like our Holy prophet Muhammad (SAW). You can never be a full muslim except you acknowledge and fully accept all these facts. But definitely Jesus was not and is not God because God was never a human being and can never be one.

Please understand our view point.

1. Where and when did Jesus Christ tell muslims what how he wanted them to live their lives outside the bible you claim to be corrupted?

2. If indeed we are to love one another just like your (un)holy prophet mohammed did, how many people will be left with their heads standing on their necks? What of dhimmis? Will Jews now be mandated to wear shoes of different types to differentiate them from the other? What of terrorism in the name of Allah, butt flogging, hand cutting, looting, raping of war booty? Are all these signs of love?

@Davidylan: As one man to another (I wanted to say as how one friend playfully says to another friend in happy time, when that friend is saying jibberish/not making sense), Go se daun, you no dey say notin. Na quesoun you dey ask, everytime.

@gbade.x: Have ever tried to apply the same methodology to your viewpoint of Islamic Books; Qur'an and Hadith. I want us to stick with this principal and then we can ask one another core questions; The muslims will ask the Christians how is it possible that they still believe that the whole Bible is 100% as it was bits and pieces of what was revealed to each prophet (AS); Moses, Jesus, David as standard example? Before you answer you must consider that in this same Bible you have a verse which can be paraphrased to mean; the pen of the scribes has changed the words from its place (s). Please you must explain this to us. How do you get your explanations? Did Jesus explained the Old Testament, differently what what moses said, because in your statement on this page, you seem to explain away that jesus rendered the Old tsetament obsolate/not essential any more in law and commandments, etc. If this is so, why do you still have the Old testament in the Christian Book, if its obsulate. Are the Jews aware of this move and okay with it. If Jesus finished every thing why is a need for paul to jump in, especia;;y when he says something and dubiously says that he is not saying it, but it is jesus that is saying it. See Havilas entry about marriage explanation to me about where he claims that Marriage is without the options for 'irreconcialable difference, that really means divorce'. Let use the Bible to explain the Bible!

Then we will use the Qur'an, directly from the mouth of the human authority on Qur'an, Muhammad bin Abdullah (AS)


@Havila: First, I respect Isa bin Mariam (AS) of the Qur'an. You have traces of his description in the Bible. But there is an embellishment to the extremity that a figure called Jesus in the Bible emmerged. It is this falacy that all muslims disagree with. This is the crock of the matter. In my half asleep state, no REM state, I ask you to explain the calculus of the yearly percentage of reduction in the muslim head counts and when do you think it will become Zero. You do know that you dey lie. I borrow from Fela, who you tend to tell us that you like, even as you quote his lyric very badly. It is a generational thing and/or you did not enjoy College due to your heavy course Load in at Ife; the chorus is Tell me story o. (This is to joke with you. Loosen up, dont be tense, man)
You see, in marriage, people come with their different and separate experiences. You put 100% of yourself into it. You persevere and patiently try to do the best and see issues from your partner's viewpoint and then yours. Men rule if he knows how to make the woman feel that it is a true partnership. At the same time, woman is the real ruler, because she keeps the family together, but she is smart enough to make the man feel that he is in control. Havila, Islam allows devorce so that no one is imprisoned in a a situation where they are not 100% truly committed and feel that there is a better situation. Also, Islam allows men to marry more than one wife, for many reasons; it was an on going tradition before the Islam of Muhammad. This islamic injuction did not start it, but limit man's to 4 wives at one time and allows divorce instead of hatred, etc, between spouses. Read the Qur'an, you will find many chapters on women, name;Mariam, matters of life; The woman who argued, family issue; Divorce, and others. Tell me, do you have something comparable in the Bible. In the Qur'an, you find responsibility ofman and woman the same in matters of religion and responsibility is definately emphasised, where there is a need for difference, women are elevated and respected. If there is a divorce, man is commanded to deal justly and do not inflict any emotional or physical damage or undue advantage. The primary care taker of the household, which include nurturing of the offspring is lovingly assigned to mothers. There is an adith that says the path to paradise is under the foot of the mother. Another says that mother is to be given three times before father. In inheritance, mother gets shares, always, before father and the whole male is encourage to care for the female member of the family. Lets take ethnic culture out of the equations, lets deal with religious culture. Islamic culture is definately, separate and apart from Arab culture, African cultures, etc. Give me your answer.

@Olabowale,
I am happy you are learning to approach issues rationally rather than emotionally, that is the begining of getting understanding. Now to your entries:

olabowale:

@Havila: First, I respect Isa bin Mariam (AS) of the Qur'an. You have traces of his description in the Bible. But there is an embellishment to the extremity that a figure called Jesus in the Bible emmerged. It is this falacy that all muslims disagree with.

Yes, you "respect" him because you dont 'know' him; because if you do know him, you will honour Him, Glorify Him, Adore Him, Submit to Him, etc. It is laughable that you claim there are only traces of him in the bible; it is fallacy to you because the "natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS (or 'fallacy') unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Again, this is from 1st Corinthians 2 vs 14 that I quoted above. Additionally 1st Corinthians 12 vs 3 says: "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus 'accursed': and that no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Accursed refers to the Greek word 'anathema' which could figuratively mean 'giving him less glory than he deserve or has'. These passages above clearly shows that what you have in the Quran, in fact the entire Quran itself, is DEFINITELY NOT OF SPIRIT OF GOD.

olabowale:

You see, in marriage, people come with their different and separate experiences. You put 100% of yourself into it. You persevere and patiently try to do the best and see issues from your partner's viewpoint and then yours. Men rule if he knows how to make the woman feel that it is a true partnership. At the same time, woman is the real ruler, because she keeps the family together, but she is "smart enough" to make the man feel that he is in control. Havila, Islam allows divorce so that no one is imprisoned in a a situation where they are not 100% truly committed and feel that there is a better situation. Also, Islam allows men to marry more than one wife, for many reasons; it was an on going tradition before the Islam of Muhammad. This islamic injuction did not start it, but limit man's to 4 wives at one time and allows divorce instead of hatred, etc, between spouses.

Olabowale,
What you descibed above is truly Islamic potrayal of marriage and NOT TRUE MARRIAGE has it was ordanined by God Almighty from the begining. Marrigae is NOT about 'rulership' and 'servanthood' as you have of the relationship between husband and wife in Islam; in Lord Jesus Christ, marriage is the interdependence of the man and woman in the home with equal worth before the Lord but differences in responsibilities. Marriage is NOT a deception in which one has to be "smart enough make the man feel he is in control"; in Christ, it is about two completely different people coming together to SUBMIT THEIR DIFFERENT WILLS to each other, honour, respect, forgive and love each other under God no matter what.
1st Corinthians 11 vs 11-12 says: "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.(11) For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but ALL things of God"
In your Islam, by allowing ''divorce so that no one is imprisoned in a situation in which they are not 100% truly committed''(in your words), dont you see that is an oportunity NOT to be committed in the first place since you can divorce easily? This is called 'ontological evidence' i.e. since the provision is there already for what is allowed if you are not 100% committed, that is an opportunity not to be committed. If you have no alternative choice but to be committed, loving, forgiving in differences etc, you will definitely be committed and not think of divorce talkless of looking for 'better alternatives', how myopic is that? how did you know the future situation will be better? Dont you see limited and selfish human wisdom here, especially tilted in favour of the male sex which is the 'theme of marriage in Islam'?
If you want to learn more about Marriage in Christ, read Genesis 2:18, Matthew Chapter 5 vs 32, Romans 7 vs 4, 1st Corinthians chapters 7 and 11, 2nd Corinthians 11, Ephesians 5 vs 22-32, for starters to know what is the true and real marriage which is a lifelong commitment of love, peace, mutual support and respect; forgiveness, enouragement in adversities; rejoicing and honour each other at all times with gratitude to God. Above all, submitting to God for his help and teachings by acknowledging him as the ultimate head of your home.

olabowale:

1-Read the Qur'an, you will find many chapters on women, name;Mariam, matters of life; The woman who argued, family issue; Divorce, and others. Tell me, do you have something comparable in the Bible. In the Qur'an, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2-If there is a divorce, man is commanded to deal justly and do not inflict any emotional or physical damage or undue advantage.

response 1: It should be obvious from my discussions variously that I know the quran and about the quran; and you know my opinion on the book from what I said above in the first part of this write-up. It is simply a product of selfish human wisdom and nothng divine from it's contents.
response 2: This is absurd; as a man how do you divorce a woman and yet deal justly without inflicting any 'emotional or physical damage'?. Yes, it is only possible if you were NOT really married in the sense of real marriage all along, but simply cohabiting as "ruler" and "the ruled" or "servant" with absolutely no emotional attachment. Is that marriage? Hell No.

@Havila: When I see your name, I often get amused. I will get excited, with a little bit of smile. Then i will say; Havila, otun tide. Baba, with his hard nosed analysis. I am sure that if we meet, even with this intensity and difference in position, even Davidylan will get a cheerful greeting from me.

My respect for Jesus, meaning Isa bin Mariam (AS) is because he is a prophet of the Merciful Lord. Allah says about the prophets in ending verses of Surah baqarah; There is no discrimination between the prophets. From Adam to Muhammad, there are between then notable prpphets like Nuh, Ibrahiim, Musa and Isa (AS).

You are using greek to discredit the Al-Qur'an? First, the Bible is not revealed in El Greco, even you can use the Bible to discredit the Qur'an. It will be as if using Taurah to discredit the Sabur and the Sabur to discredit the Injiil! Muhammad (AS) said in an authentic adith, Instead of the Taurah given to Musa, my Lord gave me a certain portion of the Qur'an, then another certain portion of the Qur'an instead of Sabur and yet Allah gave me a different portion for Injiil of Isa ibn Marian. My Lord Honored me above all of this by given me yet another certain potion in addition toall of these. For example. when Suartul Fatiha was revealed, it happened that it was revealed all in one shot. 70,ooo Angels accompanied Jibril to delivered it to Al Hashimi (AS)! That is heavy. Suratul Fatiha is a complete Dua (read it and find out. Its only seven verses). The rest of the Qur'an is the answer to that prayer of the Surah.

How do you justify your response, by quoting Corinthian of Paul/Saul. Did not jesus of the Bible provide full detail/answer before he left, that you need this Saul/Paul guy to give you answer. Surprisingly, gbade.x stated that Jesus came and his ruling renders THe Old Testament and its Laws arcaic/not viable, non applicable. You also state it the same by your writing. How then you quoted Genesis with a straight face? From the above, using process of elimination, Roman and the rest of them are handiwork of Paul, you quoted only one verse from the the Gospel Mathew 5, 2. In academic setting this will be about20% at best. What is that in Nigerian University? In America, apart from situation where curving of the class mark are applied, it will be a F, at best if curved you get a D!

The truth about Qur'an is that you have never read it. It is only read in Arabic. The rest is translation, what it may mean. I know better. If you think that you know marriage life from the Bible, tell me about your example? Those prophets who are married , most them you criticised. You do not even believe they are prophets any how. Jesus was not marriedand he did not give you any example of marriage.

My father (ra) married more than one wife. Infact my mother was his last wife. From the marriages, you had many successful men and women. From VC, to many engineers, law Legal professioners and successful marchants, from general tradings to specialized fields. All I am saying is that marriage is a union that is like business, written or implied agreement. In all there is a rule of engagement. Divorce is very common among the christians, even as they say till death do us part. There are Muslims who have just one wife and do not want any more. In all Islamic marriage is more acceptable than christian marriages where the man has one wife, but a girlfriend for every day of the week!

By the way, my senior wife is an Egba woiman. So I am not only interest in igbo woman. I love pretty and exotic women. I only have relationship that is Halal, within Islamic ruling. There is no adultery in my life. You have not provide me with a good argument. Quote directly from Jesus. But of course, you do not know what Jesus said. The best you can give me is 'according to' from your unknown author.

suit yourself olabowole.
The whole Bible is inspired whether Jesus's words,Isaiahs or Davids.
Stop this your contention,exotic women lover lol
Meanwhile enjoy this nice Igbo song(some English).
Have m,y sister listen to it too.
I'm sure she'll like it.
Tell me what you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvNEiIJ8S3Y

@Olabowale,
So, among all the scriptures I listed for you, the only one that always get's you going is anything written by Paul? Well whether you like him or not, agree or not, Paul wrote what the Lord showed/told him in the Spirit and it is full of wisdom of God. There are other passages there from Gen, Matthew (Jesus speaking), Ephesians etc but you wahala is Paul. As I said in my entry under 'Bounties of Jannat', you are much like Paul when he was still Saul; and I am believing God for you that you will become so sold out to Jesus like him and take the salvation of Jesus to your family, masjid etc. Amen.

Nobody told you Jesus renders the Old testament inapplicable; what is your definition of applicable or inapplicable?. I told you before that the entire OT is about the promise and prophesy of Jesus's coming. The laws of Judaistic legalism e.g Leviticus, cannot make a person righteous; for example in Nigeria where law has been prescribed against homosexuality, or in the US, UK where there are laws against paedophilia, are people still not practising homosexuality and paedophila? yes they are because Law cannot make people free from or avoid sin. That is why we say Jesus Christ is the end of the law for rigtheousness, He is the only one who can make righteous, convict of Sin through his spirit etc.

Marriage is NOT "like business written or implied agreement" as you submitted; a marriage that is like business with written or implied agreement is simply a "contract" like what you have in Hollywood and such a marriage will go the way of Hollywood marriages too. Marriage is mutual submission of will: two different peoples coming together to become one by submitting to each other. What you described is rather a 'partnership' in which two separate peoples come together and still remain different individuals, such a relationship will always be selfish, self-centred and egotistic with each person seeking his or her own. God said in Genesis chapter 2 that "For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and shall join the woman, and the TWO  shall "become ONE" flesh." Do you see how God is reasoning? Bible also said the husband should love the wife as his own body and the woman should love the husband as her own body i.e you are seeking after each others interest, not your separate individuality.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying challenges wont occur or disagreement will not happen, but in a marriage where there is mutual submission of will, settling such disagreements and ultimately forgiveness is much easier because,,, can you be angry and unforgiving at your own self? No!!! since Bible said you should hold, honour and love your wife just as yourself and vice-versa.

Col 3:5   Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Col 3:6   Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.*
 
Col 3:8   But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

Col 3:11   Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Col 3:12   Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. .

Col 3:18   Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Col 3:19   Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.


Col 3:20   Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

Olabowole,you see from above,God recognised that man has an insatiable appetite in all things.
He taught us how a man should treat his one wife.

Any man who desires more than one woman is lustful,an adulterer call it marriage all you want,a man desiring multiple women is only to fulfil his selfish sexual desires and lusts.
How some women have so lost their self esteem as complete humans to share a man with many others in whatever arrangement beats me.
Any intelligent woman would not settle for such abuse that robs them of themselves and debases them

There is no woman anywhere alive that would prefer to share her man with many others if there was a choice for her to be the only wife.
But indoctrination and calling it the will of Allah leaves them no choice afterall Muhammad says women are sexual organs for the purpose of fulfilling mans sexual needs and hell is filled with women who failed to satisfy these desires.

How mean of Muhammad to see women so low.
Kudos to countries like Tunisia and Morocco that have a one wife rule in their sharia.
They are miles ahead of the others.

olabowale:

@Davidylan: As one man to another (I wanted to say as how one friend playfully says to another friend in happy time, when that friend is saying jibberish/not making sense), Go se daun, you no dey say notin. Na quesoun you dey ask, everytime.

Of course, you have consistently failed to answer even one of those questions, sorry if they expose the fabric of your so-called religion as strong delusion!

Baby and David, you use very harsh words on Islam and muslims despite our warmth and softle approach to these discussions. i strongly disagree and take offence, hoping next time you take note. we are trying hard altogether to be civil and soft inorder to earn each others respect. Is not going to do you any good if we got pissed off with you and ignore your posts. we are also not bound by anyone to reply your reckless insults on our faith. 

If you don't like Islamic provisions on polygamy, rules of engagements or anything else, you have the right to disagree without being insultive. i don't think you are portraying your religion in good form by resorting to nasty languages while we condemn yours softly. it only goes to show where candour and decorum lies.

we keep citing terrorist acts as despicable acts while we write worst atrocities on the pages of nairaland. we are suppose to be smarter here.

belloti:

If you don't like Islamic provisions on polygamy, rules of engagements or anything else, you have the right to disagree without being insultive. i don't think you are portraying your religion in good form by resorting to nasty languages while we condemn yours softly. it only goes to show where candour and decorum lies.

we keep citing terrorist acts as despicable acts while we write worst atrocities on the pages of nairaland. we are suppose to be smarter here.

Ah, you "condemn our religion SOFTLY" By making the most blasphemous statement ever that Jesus is merely a prophet subordinate to Mohammed?
Condemning our religion softly by killing southern Nigerians for every CORRECT graphic illustration of Mohammed by a Danish artist expressing his right to freedom of speech?
By killing foreigners roaming islamic lands? By burning churches in the north? By screaming death to Isreal at every drop of a hat?
What a SOFT way to condemn a religion!!

If the worst of our "atrocities" is merely stating the obvious about the violent acts of muslims (erroneously refered to as radical islamists) and condoned by the quran (infact encouraged as a direct route to "heaven"!) then one wonders where your sense of fair judgement has left you to.

Did you actually attempt to equate words on this forum to the activities of islamic terrorists? do you actually mean to tell me that this post is equivalent to the 9-11 bombings? Puleeeeeaaaase!

If my pointing out the obvious about Islam from its teachings amounts to being harsh on Islam,so be it Bellotti.

If you are very sincere,tell me what names you have been taught to call Christians and Jews in your Islamic teachings,tell me the chantings about what you'll do to infidels which I'm sure you've said more than a few times.

Islam and its teachings are violent,we have proven it here even by the life of its most revered prophet,if you can't handle the truth,someone else reading this may be saved from it's tentacles,that is my whole purpose on these threads.

I have no hatred for Muslims and I've said it consistently,I only want to expose the fraud called Islam

@Babyosisi: When you said that you are committed to 'expose' Islamas fraud, I must ask you what do you mean? What do you know about Islam? Nothing, that's your answer! Islam is very deep and is not for those who prefer fantasy to reality. In Islam, you have hard part and easy part. It is all about life, what and how human give the right that God has over us to Him in His Majesty. It is how people deal amongst themselves and the enviroment, living thing and non living thing. Even when you slaughter an animal there is mercy shown to the animal.
The prophet (AS) saw a man who was sharpening a knife in the full view of an animal that he was going to kill. The prophet had to tell the man to show mercy on the animal by not killing it twice, the sharpening of the knife in full view is one and then killing it is the second time.

When you learn about Qur'an and the prophet (A) and his companion, then you will know that your knowledge about this noble religion and his last prophet, who Allah the Almighty completed the process and injuction of worshipping Him by mankind, I hope you will then have the humility to seek forgiveness. Islam is not a fade and not a man made organization. It is a revealed religion which its very name are derived from Salaam, an atribute of The Creator and Silm which is submission. Ibrahiim said it as part of a prayer in Suratul An am. In Suratul Araf, Musa (AS to all) in supplication to God says he is first as a Mumiin in his time or among his generation. Please do not take up a load or responsibility that will drwon you. The Constantineemperor who the Nazi Pope quoted did not tell us the name of Muslim scholar he was debating or the response of that Muslim scholar to his off the wall statement of falsehood. You need to realise that there was no debate, really the emperor as usual was in delusional and made this scenario up to complete his empty but evil argument.

I am very sure that if the dialogue had actually taken place, there would have been a proper response from the Muslim scholar. Just like the usual Christian tactics, always lopsided, no fairness. But the muslims will allow you the opportunity to present your viewpoint and then disect/break it down, brick by brick.

Let me ask one fundemental question. (Sad Question to ask )

Which religion is responsible for more acts or terror/deaths/ruining of lives
Christianity or Islam======> Western or Arab World?