Some lawyers have cautioned President Goodluck Jonathan to stop differentiating between the acts of stealing and corruption.
The President had during the 8th presidential media chat on Wednesday maintained that there was a difference between the two acts. This came several months after he first made a similar statement.
“If somebody is a thief, he is a thief. We should not use the word ‘corruption’ to cover a case of stealing. Thieves should be called thieves,” the President had said.
However, a lawyer and human rights activist, Prof. Itse Sagay, said in a telephone conversation with Saturday PUNCH that there was no technical difference between the two acts and that persons involved in either should be made to face the wrath of the law.
He said, “In a broad legal sense, they are the same. Stealing is taking what belongs to another person without the consent of the owner with the intention of keeping it permanently.
“Corruption is using an office to acquire the resources of an organisation without working for it and without the organisation’s awareness. Looking at it, using an office as a political office holder to acquire what belongs to the state results to stealing.
“Ultimately, every act of corruption is an act of stealing. There is no question about it. There is no moral or ethical difference between them. Both are criminal, immoral and anti-social acts and nobody should attempt to make one look lighter than the other. People who commit either should be dealt with seriously.”
A civil rights lawyer, Fred Agbaje, said President Jonathan’s differentiation between the acts was clear evidence that the President’s government is corrupt.
He said that the President was only giving two terms for same offence.
He said, “Defence of stealing as different from corruption is indicative of the fact that President Jonathan’s administration is morally bankrupt.
“What the President has said is an admission of guilt and that his government is corrupt. It is a distinction without substance. It is calling one object two different names.
The nomenclature may differ, but the substance of both allegations is the same.
“Which of them is allowed in our law whether he calls them in different names? They are both punishable under our penal laws. Stealing is even worse than corruption. Both of them carry a legal element of deliberately taking what does not belong to someone with the intent of depriving the taxpayers.”

We don't even need a lawyer to tell us that. My 6 year old nephew knows that stealing is attributed to corruption! .

The question they ought to have asked the President is "What is corruption?"

Mynd44:
The question they ought to have asked the President is "What is corruption?"

The question you should ask these lawyers is, if stealing and corruption are the same, why do they attract different penalties in our laws?

Stealing and corruption are crimes no doubt but they are not the same. It is like adultary and fornication or murder and manslaughter. What Prof Sagey did was just to give two different definitions of stealing and then call one corruption. In law stealing attracts greater penalty than corruption. Stealing is when you take what doesn't belong to you wether as a government official or an individual while corruption is when you try to circumvent the system to the detriment of an organisation such as bribery, nepotism, lying, forgery etc so contrary to what Prof Sagey is saying, it is not every act of corruption that is stealing. Some acts that seem like corruption such as embezzlement of public funds are pure stealing and should be treated as such and that is what the president is saying because if you treat them as corruption they attract lesser penalty in law.

Do not let these partisan lawyers deceive you. In theory and in law, stealing and corruption are different but saying that doesnt mean justifying any of them as good or acceptable.

Tranquill:


The question you should ask these lawyers is, if stealing and corruption are the same, why do they attract different penalties in our laws?

Stealing and corruption are crimes no doubt but they are not the same. It is like adultary and fornication or murder and manslaughter. What Prof Sagey did was just to give two different definitions of stealing and then call one corruption. In law stealing attracts greater penalty than corruption. Stealing is when you take what doesn't belong to you wether as a government official or an individual while corruption is when you try to circumvent the system to the detriment of an organisation such as bribery, nepotism, lying, forgery etc so contrary to what Prof Sagey is saying, it is not every act of corruption that is stealing. Some acts that seem like corruption such as embezzlement of public funds are pure stealing and should be treated as such and that is what the president is saying because if you treat them as corruption they attract lesser penalty in law.

Do not let these partisan lawyers deceive you. In theory and in law, stealing and corruption are different but saying that doesnt mean justifying any of them as good or acceptable.

In courts you are tried for for specific offense, like bribery, forgery and lying.
No prosecutor goes to courts shouting corruption.
Corruption is just a general term for certain crimes.

Embezzlement(thefts) is corruption.

Jona should be advised to go back to school. That's all.

Tranquill:


The question you should ask these lawyers is, if stealing and corruption are the same, why do they attract different penalties in our laws?

Stealing and corruption are crimes no doubt but they are not the same. It is like adultary and fornication or murder and manslaughter. What Prof Sagey did was just to give two different definitions of stealing and then call one corruption. In law stealing attracts greater penalty than corruption. Stealing is when you take what doesn't belong to you wether as a government official or an individual while corruption is when you try to circumvent the system to the detriment of an organisation such as bribery, nepotism, lying, forgery etc so contrary to what Prof Sagey is saying, it is not every act of corruption that is stealing. Some acts that seem like corruption such as embezzlement of public funds are pure stealing and should be treated as such and that is what the president is saying because if you treat them as corruption they attract lesser penalty in law.

Do not let these partisan lawyers deceive you. In theory and in law, stealing and corruption are different but saying that doesnt mean justifying any of them as good or acceptable.

Stealing is just one specific act of corruption. Whether murder or manslaughter, the judicial verdict is that a person bears some responsibility for the death of another. Corruption is a broad term and what the lawyers object to is such line drawing by the president who should in normal climes be a representative of moral good. Prof Sagay is certainly not your intellectual equal when it comes to discussions on law and morality!

#change
#GMB
#APC

who took gej to court because he said stealing is not corruption?

Change2015:


Stealing is just one specific act of corruption. Whether murder or manslaughter, the judicial verdict is that a person bears some responsibility for the death of another. Corruption is a broad term and what the lawyers object to is such line drawing by the president who should in normal climes be a representative of moral good. Prof Sagay is certainly not your intellectual equal when it comes to discussions on law and morality!

#change
#GMB
#APC

You are another hero worshiper. The president never justified corruption or stealing. What the president said is that those who steal should not be charged as corrupt officials but as thieves so they don't get away with lighter punishment so I don't know where your issue of morals comes in.

Tranquill:


You are another hero worshiper. The president never justified corruption or stealing. What the president said is that those who steal should not be charged as corrupt officials but as thieves so they don't get away with lighter punishment so I don't know where your issue of morals comes in.

Please give examples of people charged with 'corruption' in the courts? They may be accused of corruption but the charges usually specify the particular corrupt acts as defined by our many laws, which may include theft, stealing, bribe taking or giving, improper contract awards etc. The president was just being stupid to speak in the manner he did, and his opinions certainly offended the sensibilities of all right-thinking people in and outside the country. You are obviously the hero worshipper here, not me.

#change
#GMB
#APC

Change2015:


Please give examples of people charged with 'corruption' in the courts? They may be accused of corruption but the charges usually specify the particular corrupt acts as defined by our many laws, which may include theft, stealing, bribe taking or giving, improper contract awards etc. The president was just being stupid to speak in the manner he did, and his opinions certainly offended the sensibilities of all right-thinking people in and outside the country. You are obviously the hero worshipper here, not me.

#change
#GMB
#APC

When you have made up your mind to see negative in every word or action of the president's, that is your problem. Your hero Prof Sagey saying that every act of corruption is stealing makes sense to you right? There are many Nigerians that think right and know exactly what the president meant so speak for yourself.

Tranquill:


When you have made up your mind to see negative in every word or action of the president's, that is your problem. Your hero Prof Sagey saying that every act of corruption is stealing makes sense to you right? There are many Nigerians that think right and know exactly what the president meant so speak for yourself.

Please give the examples as requested. It is simple proof that you and the president are both misguided to say the least! No evasions or prevarication.

#change
#GMB
#APC

Can't believe a professor of law would say "Ultimately, every act of corruption is an act of stealing." That statement is too silly to even give any serious consideration.

If you are talking morality, then you can argue that they are both the same, since they are both acts of dishonesty that cause suffering to the victim(s), whether directly or indirectly. However that argument is unnecessary since the president didn't say one is wrong and the other right.

It's only in cases of embezzlement that theft intersects corruption. Besides that, theft is theft and corruption is corruption. Even in such a case, one shouldn't escape with the lighter punishment. I agree with the president.

You shouldn't argue against a logical statement just because you don't like the person who said it. Argue against it because you understand his position and still can prove he's wrong. Anyone who says every act of corruption is an act of stealing [sic] has no idea what we are talking about.

There is no need for debate on this subject.

Stealing, pilfering and conversion for personal use of public funds are elements of corrupt practices.

A wise President would have used the last media chat as an opportunity to correct his previous gaffe on the subject by vehemently condemning either act as an anti-social behaviour. The efforts to distinguish both despite his lack of fluent oratory and grammatical wit has done more damage to how the citizenry view his fight against corruption.

Change2015:


Please give examples of people charged with 'corruption' in the courts? They may be accused of corruption but the charges usually specify the particular corrupt acts as defined by our many laws, which may include theft, stealing, bribe taking or giving, improper contract awards etc. The president was just being stupid to speak in the manner he did, and his opinions certainly offended the sensibilities of all right-thinking people in and outside the country. You are obviously the hero worshipper here, not me.

#change
#GMB
#APC

See example you asked for. Why did the charge read CORRUPTION AND THEFT if they mean the same thing. Please go get yourself properly educated and stop coming here to talk trash in the name of politics.

Two cops in court for corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice

2015-02-14 08:3
Cape Town - A police warrant officer made photocopies
of five R100 notes, and recorded their serial numbers,
before placing the notes in a plastic bank bag, to be
used in an undercover police operation to trap an
alleged corrupt police captain, a court in Cape Town
heard on Friday.
Warrant Officer Gert Botes testified at the trial of
Captain Siyaza Patrick Siyale, 51, and colleague Wilfred
Mentoor, 29. Both have pleaded not guilty to charges
of corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice,
before magistrate Sabrina Sonnenberg.
Prosecutor Denzyl Combrink alleged that they accused
the then president of the French South Africa Chamber
of Commerce and Industries, Nicodemus Solly Moeng,
of involvement in a black dollar scam, and demanded
money in order not to arrest him.
Siyale alone is also charged with extortion or blackmail
involving R1 800.
Botes told the court that Moeng approached a senior
police officer about Siyale's demands, and that an
undercover police operation was authorised to trap
Siyale.
Moeng had arranged to meet Siyale at the McDonalds
restaurant in Observatory, Cape Town, at 14:00, when
he was to hand over the bag containing R500.
Botes said he and a colonel had parked near the
restaurant, but out of sight of the venue where Moeng
was to hand over the money to Siyale.
Botes added: "If Siyale had seen our car, or recognised
any of us, Siyale would have gotten cold feet and
abandoned the transaction, which we were anxious to
avoid."
A group of police officials from the Intervention Unit,
who were more involved in the trap, hid nearby and
were ready to pounce on Siyale once Moeng gave the
signal.
Asked the purpose of the trap, he said: "We had
information that a police captain was involved in
corruption, and needed to obtain evidence to prove it."
The moment Siyale had received the money, Moeng
was to inform the colonel, and Botes and the colonel
would move towards the restaurant.
Botes added: "Siyale had already been arrested, and his
hands cuffed behind his back, when we arrived at the
restaurant.
"As we drove up to him, Siyale recognised the colonel
and exclaimed, 'you have caught me'," Botes said.
The charge sheet tells how a Congolese investor, David
Kilato, duped Moeng into involvement in a lucrative
investment, which turned out to be the black dollar
scam.
Moeng was informed that the money would be
couriered to him in three different lock-up safes.
According to the charge sheet, Moeng received the
safes, but whilst on his way home with them he was
stopped by Siyale and Mentoor.
It turned out that the safes were filled with black paper
cut into the size of bank notes, and Siyale and Mentoor
accused Moeng of involvement in the scam.

realborn:
There is no need for debate on this subject.

Stealing, pilfering and conversion for personal use of public funds are elements of corrupt practices.

A wise President would have used the last media chat as an opportunity to correct his previous gaffe on the subject by vehemently condemning either act as an anti-social behaviour. The efforts to distinguish both despite his lack of fluent oratory and grammatical wit has done more damage to how the citizenry view his fight against corruption.

They are different bro. Although most people that steal have elements of corruption in them but it's not everyone that is corrupt that is a thief. Someone that impersonates another is corrupt but not a thief if he did not take what doesn't belong to him. But someone that commits forgery, impersonation, nepotism and then takes what doesn't belong to him have committed acts of corruption before stealing.

Tranquill:


See example you asked for. Why did the charge read CORRUPTION AND THEFT if they mean the same thing. Please go get yourself properly educated and stop coming here to talk trash in the name of politics.

Two cops in court for corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice

2015-02-14 08:3
Cape Town - A police warrant officer made photocopies
of five R100 notes, and recorded their serial numbers,
before placing the notes in a plastic bank bag, to be
used in an undercover police operation to trap an
alleged corrupt police captain, a court in Cape Town
heard on Friday.
Warrant Officer Gert Botes testified at the trial of
Captain Siyaza Patrick Siyale, 51, and colleague Wilfred
Mentoor, 29. Both have pleaded not guilty to charges
of corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice,
before magistrate Sabrina Sonnenberg.
Prosecutor Denzyl Combrink alleged that they accused
the then president of the French South Africa Chamber
of Commerce and Industries, Nicodemus Solly Moeng,
of involvement in a black dollar scam, and demanded
money in order not to arrest him.
Siyale alone is also charged with extortion or blackmail
involving R1 800.
Botes told the court that Moeng approached a senior
police officer about Siyale's demands, and that an
undercover police operation was authorised to trap
Siyale.
Moeng had arranged to meet Siyale at the McDonalds
restaurant in Observatory, Cape Town, at 14:00, when
he was to hand over the bag containing R500.
Botes said he and a colonel had parked near the
restaurant, but out of sight of the venue where Moeng
was to hand over the money to Siyale.
Botes added: "If Siyale had seen our car, or recognised
any of us, Siyale would have gotten cold feet and
abandoned the transaction, which we were anxious to
avoid."
A group of police officials from the Intervention Unit,
who were more involved in the trap, hid nearby and
were ready to pounce on Siyale once Moeng gave the
signal.
Asked the purpose of the trap, he said: "We had
information that a police captain was involved in
corruption, and needed to obtain evidence to prove it."
The moment Siyale had received the money, Moeng
was to inform the colonel, and Botes and the colonel
would move towards the restaurant.
Botes added: "Siyale had already been arrested, and his
hands cuffed behind his back, when we arrived at the
restaurant.
"As we drove up to him, Siyale recognised the colonel
and exclaimed, 'you have caught me'," Botes said.
The charge sheet tells how a Congolese investor, David
Kilato, duped Moeng into involvement in a lucrative
investment, which turned out to be the black dollar
scam.
Moeng was informed that the money would be
couriered to him in three different lock-up safes.
According to the charge sheet, Moeng received the
safes, but whilst on his way home with them he was
stopped by Siyale and Mentoor.
It turned out that the safes were filled with black paper
cut into the size of bank notes, and Siyale and Mentoor
accused Moeng of involvement in the scam.

We are discussing Jonathan and Nigeria! One thing you fail to understand, there is a moral meaning to corruption and it encompasses all the separate charges listed in your example. A thief is a corrupt person. A bribe giver or taker is a corrupt person. A person who trades on insider information is a corrupt person. The word corruption is broad, the particulars of the corruption may or may not be defined under the criminal law. Jonathan was just being either naturally obtuse or deliberately shady.

#change
#GMB
#APC

Tranquill:


See example you asked for. Why did the charge read CORRUPTION AND THEFT if they mean the same thing. Please go get yourself properly educated and stop coming here to talk trash in the name of politics.

Two cops in court for corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice

2015-02-14 08:3
Cape Town - A police warrant officer made photocopies
of five R100 notes, and recorded their serial numbers,
before placing the notes in a plastic bank bag, to be
used in an undercover police operation to trap an
alleged corrupt police captain, a court in Cape Town
heard on Friday.
Warrant Officer Gert Botes testified at the trial of
Captain Siyaza Patrick Siyale, 51, and colleague Wilfred
Mentoor, 29. Both have pleaded not guilty to charges
of corruption, theft and defeating the ends of justice,
before magistrate Sabrina Sonnenberg.
Prosecutor Denzyl Combrink alleged that they accused
the then president of the French South Africa Chamber
of Commerce and Industries, Nicodemus Solly Moeng,
of involvement in a black dollar scam, and demanded
money in order not to arrest him.
Siyale alone is also charged with extortion or blackmail
involving R1 800.
Botes told the court that Moeng approached a senior
police officer about Siyale's demands, and that an
undercover police operation was authorised to trap
Siyale.
Moeng had arranged to meet Siyale at the McDonalds
restaurant in Observatory, Cape Town, at 14:00, when
he was to hand over the bag containing R500.
Botes said he and a colonel had parked near the
restaurant, but out of sight of the venue where Moeng
was to hand over the money to Siyale.
Botes added: "If Siyale had seen our car, or recognised
any of us, Siyale would have gotten cold feet and
abandoned the transaction, which we were anxious to
avoid."
A group of police officials from the Intervention Unit,
who were more involved in the trap, hid nearby and
were ready to pounce on Siyale once Moeng gave the
signal.
Asked the purpose of the trap, he said: "We had
information that a police captain was involved in
corruption, and needed to obtain evidence to prove it."
The moment Siyale had received the money, Moeng
was to inform the colonel, and Botes and the colonel
would move towards the restaurant.
Botes added: "Siyale had already been arrested, and his
hands cuffed behind his back, when we arrived at the
restaurant.
"As we drove up to him, Siyale recognised the colonel
and exclaimed, 'you have caught me'," Botes said.
The charge sheet tells how a Congolese investor, David
Kilato, duped Moeng into involvement in a lucrative
investment, which turned out to be the black dollar
scam.
Moeng was informed that the money would be
couriered to him in three different lock-up safes.
According to the charge sheet, Moeng received the
safes, but whilst on his way home with them he was
stopped by Siyale and Mentoor.
It turned out that the safes were filled with black paper
cut into the size of bank notes, and Siyale and Mentoor
accused Moeng of involvement in the scam.

Last word. The law through legislation defines the charges with which a person or institution may be legally prosecuted. But the ordinary meaning of the word corruption is plain to most reasonable people. It is not proper that a President should appear to make light of a plague that is afflicting the nation. Go look up corruption in the dictionary!

#change
#GMB
#APC

Even a child knows that stealing is corruption as it relates to public office holders. GEJ trying to fool Nigerians.

Change2015 and Tranquill, please this thread is not about you two. You two should stop the war of words.

Skoopy:
Change2015 and Tranquill, please this thread is not about you two. You two should stop the war of words.

Done.

#change
#GMB
#APC

Change2015:


Last word. The law through legislation defines the charges with which a person or institution may be legally prosecuted. But the ordinary meaning of the word corruption is plain to most reasonable people. It is not proper that a President should appear to make light of a plague that is afflicting the nation. Go look up corruption in the dictionary!

#change
#GMB
#APC

The president never made it light. It is people like you that made it seem so. You see people steal N10, 000 and they are given 5 year jail term because the were charged for stealing. Some other person steals N10, 000, 000 and the person is given 6 months jail term with option of fine and you wonder why. It is because the other person was charged for theft which carries greater punishment and the other was charged for corruption possibly because he is a government official. Now the president is saying no that they should be charged for theft and not corruption to attract heavier punishment and you have problem with that? Like I said go get yourself educated and stop talking b.s.

Now see definitions from blacks law dictionary. You can also see the English dictionary.

What is CORRUPTION ?
Illegality; a vicious and fraudulent intention to
evade the prohibitions of the law. The act of an
official or fiduciary person who unlawfully and
wrongfully uses his station or character to
procure some benefit for himself or for another
person, contrary to duty and the rights of
others. U. S. v. Johnson (C. C.) 20 Fed. 082; State
v. Ragsdale. 59 Mo. App. 003; Wight v.
Rindskopf, 43 Wis. 351; Worsham v. Murchison,
00 Ga. 719; U. S. v. Edwards (C. C.) 43 Fed. 07.

What is STEAL ?
This term is commonly used In indictments for
larceny, ("take, steal, and carry away," and
denotes the commission of theft. But, in popular
usage, "stealing" seems to be a wider term than
"larceny," inasmuch as it may include the
unlawful ap- propriation of things which are not
technically the subject of larceny, e. ft.,
immovables. See Randall v. Evening News Ass'n,
101 Mich. 501, 00 N. W. 301; People v. Du- mar,
42 Ilun (N. Y.) 85; Com. v. ICelley, 1S4 Mass.
320, 08 N. E. 340; Holmes v. Gil- man. 04 Hun,
227, 19 N. Y. Supp. 151; Dun- nell v. Fiske, 11
Mete. (Mass.) 554; Barnhart v. State, 154 Ind.
177, 50 N. E. 212.

good example of corruption