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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Three Arguments For God's Existence (102708 Views)
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Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 5:01pm On Aug 01, 2015 |
Kay17:If it works like a machine, it is a machine until proven otherwise. If it exhibits balance, symmetry, pattern, coordination in its operation, it is design until proven otherwise. That is to say: something that is designed to design can not be said to be a design because it designs. You can as well say that factory robots are not designs because they design car doors, chassis and engines. Funny. I suspect that one of the errors of your assumptions is to think of designs only as material objects. Stratagem, tactics, well-crafted words, mode of operation, algorithms, system of constraints, and laws are intangibles. My question for you is: are they designs or not? Also bear in mind that they can be represented in visual forms. Another question for you. Do you agree with the following: 1. The organization of elements into a complex whole is one category of design. 2. The organization of actions so as to enable them to work together effectively is another category of design. 3. This coherent organizing principles is design. If not, why? It only makes sense that God will consider the environment (physical laws and space-time) when creating in a physical world just like an Artist must consider the nature of his canvas before and while painting on it. What is important is that the paint, the canvas and the artwork were made. Yea, but be mindful of the context in which I use 'constraint' : It was was a reaction to someone who was saying that physical laws is not design but constrain. and my argument is, what is designed to constrain is a design. Well, it takes an intelligent mind to lay a good foundation. You can also think of them as environment, 'invisible machine', relationships.... some things in life are multifaceted, it all depends on context of usage. True, equating physical laws to forces of nature is erroneous. My bad. Nevertheless, physical laws is a subset of the universe- a grand design. We do not extrapolate from human creativity alone, it takes termites to build an anthill, a bird to make a nest, bees to make honeycomb. Understanding physical laws is not a prerequisite to reach the rational conclusion that their is a designer behind a design. Only that you have no rational argument to support your claim so far. I am only interested in the truth- not what is appealing to you. Eternity is the "platform". People find it hard to believe a pig can fly; that to defy laws of physics this way is either a stuff of the imagination or by supernatural means. Falsehood. The reverse was my statement: The environment and the objects constitutes the Universe: (The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic ... - wikipedia) The Universe consists of three constituents: spacetime, forms of energy, including electromagnetic radiation and matter, and the physical laws that relate them. The Universe also encompasses all of life, all of history... -Wikipedia First, a Law that transcends this universe cannot be described as 'overarching physical laws' but a superphysical or supernatural law. The "constraint" necessary for the design of the universe is the Logos and the universe is a Rhema- Spoken Words from the Logos 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 8:23pm On Aug 01, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: Following your arguments that constraint is key to design and such constraints are designs themselves, aren't you confounded with the contradiction that Logos is itself designed?! 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 4:01am On Aug 02, 2015 |
Kay17:No contradiction. It follows that: If their is an Uncaused Cause, a Prime Mover; then their is an Undesigned Designer. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 12:57pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: In the light of your own words -- If it works like a machine, it is a machine until proven otherwise. There is a contradiction, because the Logos/superphysical/supernatural law is the constraint that effects design and following the above quote, the fact Logos exhibits that, implies itself is a subject of design. And you further say this design is uncaused. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 10:11pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
Kay17:In the light of sound logic -- Empty rhetoric. Unless you have a superior argument against the kalam cosmological argument, their is no contradiction. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:51pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: And how neatly your argument falls apart. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 11:20pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
Kay17:Proof? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:53am On Aug 03, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: In our prior posts. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 2:29pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Kay17:reference it. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 2:53pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: We had a conversation in the a series of connecting replies and responses; and at the culmination where you find yourself stuck in a contradiction, you ask for proof! How ridiculous! 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 2:59pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: You begin with a starting premise: If it works like a machine, it is a machine until proven otherwise. And the Logos eventually performs this same role of creating symmetry and patterns, and following your premise, we arrive at the concluison that your uncreated Logos has to be designed. That is the contradiction. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 6:04am On Aug 04, 2015 |
Kay17:I asked for a proof because no one got stuck in your imagined contradiction. Your faux bewilderment betrays dishonesty. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 6:09am On Aug 04, 2015 |
Kay17:In which case, the factory robot represents physical laws. The designer of the robot represents the Logos. Their is also a quote where you conflate the Logos and superphysical law(supernatural law). My response to that is: Their are laws, be it supernatural, physical, moral; and their is a lawgiver. Its been demonstrated already. The causal relationship of Design-Designer is essentially the same as Cause-Effect, the difference is context of usage. Therefore, to expose a contradiction, you must first debunk the argument for the Uncaused Cause, starting with the KCA. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 12:35pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: Saying 'they are laws' therefore require a lawgiver/writer is a convolution of language itself. Laws which we humans use as normative standards are not in the same sense as laws in the physics sense. Besides your analogy is quite convenient but useless. The factory robot is created by the human designer whilst the human designer is created by ? ? ? But you argued here that whatever gives order must itself be an example of order and therefore designed. You made that generalized argument not me. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by SNCOQ3(m): 1:27pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
Kay17:You have been effectively nailed and you know it. But of course, you must have the last face-saving words as is customary of you; so please go ahead. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 1:55pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
SNCOQ3: Address what I have said. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:32pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: No I haven't. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:33pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Because I don't know if you would agree with the answers out there since Christianity isn't the only religion. 2 Likes |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:33pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Yes it is a reasonable question. No I can't. Do you have an answer? 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:34pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: The answer isn't there. If you think it is, please provide a link to the answer you agree with. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:35pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Please provide a link that agrees with your view. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:37pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Daily mail articles aren't verification of reincarnation, they're stories. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:41pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Because they were vague and pointless. Yes you raised issues about your God creating people. KingEbukasBlog: Because number of people who hold a view doesn't make it correct. Especially when those views are in conflict. KingEbukasBlog: What is your most pressing question? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:46pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
thehomer: And you raised issues of people "arising naturally" whereas unproven by you Because number of people who hold a view doesn't make it correct. Especially when those views are in conflict. same as yours What is your most pressing question? umm ... will non-living things become living in 200 -800 million years then evolve into new animals ? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:47pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
thehomer: lemme reiterate : "Lets be pragmatic " |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:50pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
thehomer: there is no link .. The bible is my "link" . You 've been asking me so many questions but waved mine aside -that's the problem . Honestly , I''ll love to answer you only if you'd address mine |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:52pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
UyiIredia: I told you the answer but you rejected it. So, please say what the mechanism is. UyiIredia: No, I want to know what you're referring to. Or have you become confused again? UyiIredia: They don't have to be to serve the function. All it shows is that you've successfully made no sense. UyiIredia: Each time you asked me to prove you wrong. UyiIredia: Simply read. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:55pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
Kay17: Lady , your problem is that you neither understand who God is nor what the supernatural is. Do away with whatever you understood as the former and the later - start afresh . Understand the religion and who we see as God . Then your questions might seem be sensible to me |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 7:06pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
UyiIredia: You've not been reading. Here's a link for you. UyiIredia: That isn't what the theory of evolution says. UyiIredia: No it is prudence. If you can't even read your own sources, why should I? I asked you to provide quotes and you can't even do that? UyiIredia: It is a pity that creationists deny the evidence of evolution and assert a God. UyiIredia: Consciousness is neither a chemical compound nor energy therefore the brain can't be the source of consciousness? The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise so that argument is invalid. UyiIredia: You're on a roll of making no sense. What does the fact that Darwin decided not to become a clergyman have to do with anything? You need certain background knowledge to even start assessing scientific claims and you're sorely lacking in them. UyiIredia: It is experimentally shown that it supports common descent. This is just more of your ignorance revealing itself. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 7:08pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: What sort of proof are you looking for? KingEbukasBlog: My view isn't based on larger numbers. KingEbukasBlog: I don't know. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 7:09pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: Okay. Why do you believe in reincarnation? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 7:10pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: The Bible contains incorrect information so why should I take it seriously? |
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