Kay17:


Your theological addition to the Big Bang theory is at best speculative. There are a number of speculative scenarios that can account for the Singularity, no necessity forces us to concede to a God. Neither does your speculation satisfy us that God is the immediate cause for the Singularity. We can easily assume layers of causes preceding the Singularity



The Big Bang theory which we are talking about already claims the Universe has a beginning. Such beginning does not automatically mean it's a creation. To mix up a beginning to mean creation is a flaw in thought.



My earlier observation answers this.



I would further say, to prove a foot print on a beach is human, you must have an idea of what a human foot looks like and how it imprints on sand. Since every footprint is not human. Similarly to prove God's footprint, we have to know what it looks like. Before you credit any creation or object to God, you have to show an indisputable prior example. Therefore an extrapolation of God's creativity from human creativity is important.



Similar to what I have addressed above.




Philosophers hardly agree on one thing. And hardly do they agree on morality. But let's suspend the discussion on morality and revelation a bit later. We will come back to it.

Kay17:


Your theological addition to the Big Bang theory is at best speculative. There are a number of speculative scenarios that can account for the Singularity, no necessity forces us to concede to a God. Neither does your speculation satisfy us that God is the immediate cause for the Singularity. We can easily assume layers of causes preceding the Singularity

The Big Bang theory which we are talking about already claims the Universe has a beginning. Such beginning does not automatically mean it's a creation. To mix up a beginning to mean creation is a flaw in thought.

I would further say, to prove a foot print on a beach is human, you must have an idea of what a human foot looks like and how it imprints on sand. Since every footprint is not human. Similarly to prove God's footprint, we have to know what it looks like. Before you credit any creation or object to God, you have to show an indisputable prior example. Therefore an extrapolation of God's creativity from human creativity is important.

Philosophers hardly agree on one thing. And hardly do they agree on morality. But let's suspend the discussion on morality and revelation a bit later. We will come back to it.

Kay17:


If the Universe is going to be here for a billion years and compared to that, a man has a lifespan of a maximum of 100 years. Of what importance would a cosmic purpose have that an earthly purpose cannot fulfill?!

Kay17:
Zenzu01

You have not so far demonstrated such logic. Can you identify a prior example of God's handiwork?

Kay17:


As I said earlier Meaning can only be drawn in context. If you can agree to that, then God divine justice and immortality are not necessary.

Zenzu01:

The fact is that scientists, atheists, philosopher, etc don't have any logical reason to prove the non existence of God. They only conclude that He doesn't exist only because they can't see Him.

As I stated earlier, those that propounded the big bang theory stated clearly that what led to the bang and further cooling off is still unknown, isn't that evident enough that there is a Being that started the whole process somewhere?
Take note: I still make reference to the big bang theory because that's what we use as the base of our argument and I wouldn't want to divert from it for now..

Let's also take a look at the life of all these micro-organisms,, before the invention of instruments like lens, magnifier or microscope, the world never knew of the existence of wonderful creatures like the amoeba, parameseum, euglena viridis etc but then, they play important roles in the formation of soil, water bodies and Micro organisms are critical to nutrient recycling in
ecosystems, because they act as decomposers.
Though we don't see them with our naked eyes but yet their importance cannot be over-emphasised. So also it is with God, you need that powerful spiritual lens or magnifier to see Him (seeing Him here doesn't mean beholding Him per se but to acknowledge the Effect of His power. Mind you am talking out of [b]Personal[b/] experience.)..

Being more spiritual is a better way and also an easier way to understand the Godhead, if you don't believe in spirituality, then it will be a discussion of another day..

If you look closely to all I've written so far without any form of rigidity and bias mind, you will see that it is because human has not really made the genuine effort to knowing God, that's why we still don't understand the workings of the almighty..
Thanks

Joshthefirst:
Smh Kay.

Okay, does your life have any meaning? If so, based on which context?

I suspect you're being deliberately ambiguous just to dodge the important question I asked you earlier. This won't be the first time you're using dodging tactics.

Lemme rephrase then:

What context can you find meaning in life without God and Divine Justice and Immortality?

Niflheim:
@Joshthefirst,

If your god does not have another god that gives him a higher purpose in life, then we can confidently say that the life of your god is purposeless and meaningless!!!

Kay17:


Through culture. Living within a culture without God and Immortality can be equally meaning. If I live my life as an aesthetic purpose. Read great books, meet good people, listening to music, playing the role of the wife, daughter and engineer gifted with building bridges between communities. And deriving satisfaction at one's usefulness and enjoyment.

Kay17:


Do you think man is omniscient? If we were, we would be beyond errors and understand all truths. Don't you agree?

If you do agree. Then it is perfectly natural for us to come to understand the Universe gradually and at our own pace. It would be strange if we knew the beginning and end of the Universe immediately we were born. Rather we have to learn and learn in the most difficult manner.

Now for you to claim you know the beginning of the Universe is, an astonishing claim. You are hardly the cosmologist. How do you answer where your knowledge came from?

Joshthefirst:
How does living within a culture and doing all this things you have mentioned give meaning and satisfaction to an existence that was accidental and is futile and will come to an end of nothingness? How will reading great books give you meaning when your life is accidental and will come to a purposeless end?

'Meet good people?' What is good and what is bad? I thought you were an atheist? Smh. There are so many things wrong with your post. This is one reason I say there are no real atheists, just paraders.

How does meeting good people give meaning and satisfaction to an accidental causeless existence that will end as a meaningless blink with no aftermath whatsoever? What is the point of playing a role when your life and the lives of all the communities you have bridged will end in ultimate nihility?

How do you know good and evil without God? Who makes up your good and evil? How do you know good is good and how will evil be punished? What is the point of living and civilization and being 'good' and human advancement, when death and nothingness is the final end of all things in your conscious and accidental existence?

How does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?


What is the point of advancement in history when history itself is ultimately futile and will come to a similar meaningless end and fate?

How does culture give meaning to your life which is like smoke and can disappear at any time? Along with the lives of your family and 'loved ones' and children, along with the lives and advancement and knowledge of humanity as a whole? What's the point?


See, if you do not believe in God and his promise of reward and Immortality, death and futility is the destiny of your short and meaningless life.

Niflheim:
@Joshthefirst,

If your god does not have another god that gives him a higher purpose in life, then we can confidently say that the life of your god is purposeless and meaningless!!!

Joshthefirst:
This is quite stu.pid actually.

Kay17:


But you haven't said how it affects LIVING. To Live and exist is separate from how we become to exist. The role of culture is to make LIVING possible. Babies for example fulfill LIVING quite adequately, being in each moment, deriving their joys with blissful ignorance.

Joshthefirst:
I don't see how the bolded addresses anything I've been saying.

The role of culture is not to make living possible. Culture is only the way a certain person lives his life. That said, culture itself has to be given definition by belief or else it is senseless.

Living is senseless without the depth of God and love and good and evil. We all believe and accept and walk and think and act in line with this, whether we deny it or not.

Kay17:


Don't you think religion is a subset of culture? Don't you think culture sets goals for human achievement. For example the modern culture promotes mass materialism as some sort of achievement.

Joshthefirst:
It doesn't matter what culture does. I ask what gives meaning to life. Life including culture. Culture, everything, is meaningless without God and Divine Justice and immortality.

Kay17:


If you had an open mind you would see religion itself is a part of culture. The idea of a God, possibility of immortality are rooted within a way of life. Morality for example is justified through God and religion. And morality is cultural as well. People restrain themselves and their actions to fit their way of life

The problem with you is, you refuse to accept the multiple religions in our world and critically think of what way of life they advertise.

Joshthefirst:
You accuse me of being close minded, but you are also so close minded you do not even address the meat and issue of my post but you go off on an off topic tangent.

What I say is that religion and religious culture, was birthed as a result of the nihility of life without God, and divine justice, etc.

The problem with you is that I believe you are ignoring what I'm saying in favor of lighter issues that you seemingly have words and answers for.

Culture, a man's way of life, his art, his life in and of itself, is meaningless without God in the picture of his consciousness and his culture, without divine justice and immortality in convoluted background motives of his living force and hopes.

Accept this first, before we delve into the subset of God and morality in different cultures and religions.

Kay17:


I didn't mean to insult you by saying you were not open minded.

You omit the fact that the monotheistic Christian God is a feature embedded in Western culture. A feature not found anywhere else. In other words don't isolate God from his originating culture.

Joshthefirst:



Kay, I don't think I ever brought up the nature or culture of God, or his religious group. Why are you doing so? How does it change or invalidate my basic argument? Should I substitute God for the creator(s)?

Please can we stick to the issue at hand and can you stop bring up unforseen sequels and distractions?

Maybe I should summarize my main argument again?


Here it is:

"A man's culture, his way of life, his life in and of itself, his art(music, literature), his science, his discovery, his diplomacy...the history of his kind, his emotions and hopes and dreams, his advancement, his squalor, his work, his ambition(s). All are fickle and meaningless without God(should I say Gods to satisfy you?), without divine justice and immortality. This truth is hardwired in US and forms the most primitive basis of our drive and life."


To which you have no refute apart from bringing up distractions(maybe because it's the u deniable truth?)

Kay17:


But culture includes religion be it paganism or Islam or Buddhism

Joshthefirst:
I must admit you really are good at finding loopholes when you're backed into a corner.

unfortunately I'm good at clearing out sought after loopholes also.

When I mention God, I refer to his existence, not religion. Existence is reality. Religion is a system of belief and worship, therefore it is secondary to the issue at hand. Thank you. now address the argument and stop looking for cop-outs.

"A man's culture, his way of life, his life in and of itself, his art(music, literature), his science, his discovery, his diplomacy...the history of his kind, his emotions and hopes and dreams, his advancement, his squalor, his work, his ambition(s). All are fickle and meaningless without God(should I say Gods to satisfy you?), without divine justice and immortality. This truth is hardwired in US and forms the most primitive basis of our drive and life."

Kay17:


Again by saying God is existence or reality, you refusing to acknowledge that God is a cultural feature of Western culture. Other cultures depend on their own Gods to find meaning -- Native Americans, Chinese, Indian, African cultures all have Gods or the equivalent.

Joshthefirst:
God is not a cultural feature, religion is a cultural feature. Different cultures have different religions. Thank you for pointing that out. It looks to me like you're trying to change the subject of our argument.

God as used by me refers to deliberate existential origin of all things.

Again I say:
"A man's culture, his way of life, his life in and of itself, his art(music, literature), his science, his discovery, his diplomacy...the history of his kind, his emotions and hopes and dreams, his advancement, his squalor, his work, his ambition(s). All are fickle and meaningless without God, without divine justice and immortality. This truth is hardwired in us and forms the most primitive basis of our drive and life."

Kay17:


But you accept all other Gods are embedded in respective religions and cultures except the Christian God, right?

Kay17:
Joshthefirst

But the summary of what you are trying to say is, my God is the best and largest amongst the rest! That's shallow if you think about it carefully.

Joshthefirst:
No. [size=5pt](I seriously wonder how you came to this conclusion. )[/size].

The summary of what I'm trying to say is that our very existence and consciousness is wired around our origin: God. Lack of belief in the higher being of cause is not possible, as it will declassify us as rational beings and will bring all depth of our very humanity to pointless nothingness and irrelevance.

The very basic processes of your life are given direction because your very consciousness understands the existence of God, even though you loftily reject him. This is quite deep if you think about it carefully. Yes. Please think about this carefully, because it is true.