Good point by Grouppoint.

But why would God give man freewill, knowing fully well that some will misuse it, thereby making them not to make heaven. I suppose God actually wants everyone to make heaven, right?

@ Goodguy, He allows freewill(fw) knowing fully well some would choose wrongly because He's also just and fair. If He withdrew fw from man and just teleguided him like a zombie, that's an excuse for Lucifer and His fallen angels to point fingers at Him that He's not fair considering that they exercised their freewill on the opposite and were doomed. Furthermore, even though He's Omnipotent and all other Omni-stuff, He doesn't want to be seen as a bully. He wants you to choose Him voluntarily. That's why the only worship that's acceptable is the one from the heart and not just outward display.
I wouldn't have time to go into analysis but at the end of the day, freewill actually means bowing to His will. Turning over your will into His. Like someone said, I am a Christian, I can do whatever I want because I only do what God wants. Compared with Jesus' situation too. I have the power to lay down my life and pick it up again. Nobody forced me.

@grouppoint,
So the bottomline from what you are saying is that GOD knows those that will make heaven and hell already but HE doesn't interfere with their decision. Am I right? So what is the essence of the preachings we do if those that will make heaven are already known by God?

KDK:

So what is the essence of the preachings we do if those that will make heaven are already known by God?

Good question.

Quote from: KDK on Yesterday at 11:25:47 PM
So what is the essence of the preachings we do if those that will make heaven are already known by God?

Ans:
It is those who receive the preachings and let the word effect their lives that would make it to Heaven. God knew these ones.

But, on a more profound level, do we not know that we are spirit? If so, are we not simply returning to our source after this brief sojourn here on earth.

Do we not also know that spirits dont die? This is why there is talk of lake of fire, Hell, Hades, Heaven etc in the after-life.

Isnt it then possible that before the foundation of this world, we existed as spirit, and God decided to create a separation between the good, and the not so good spirits by creating out of eternity, a period called time - here on earth, so that we, as mankind, would make that ultimate decision of destination by ourselves.

Grouppoint:

It is those who receive the preachings and let the word effect their lives that would make it to Heaven. God knew these ones.

God is omniscient. He already knows those that will receive the preachings at the end of the day. So why appoint pastors to preach the Word at all?

Good guy asked:
He already knows those that will receive the preachings at the end of the day. So why appoint pastors to preach the Word at all?

Ans:
You just answered the question. God appoints the pastor. But he doesnt force you to accept the preaching. Your freewill takes pre-eminence. Only those who willingly accept will make heaven. How is it God's fault simply because he for-knew these ones, For knowing is different from 'for-choosing'. There are other concepts that may well contradict mankind's free-will, viz;
God's Pre-destination, pre-determination, Pre-ordination, and even Omni-potence. But since no one is worried about these, then I wont complicate issues further.

bell ringing Obey! Obey! Obey! time ticking

God's ways are not our ways people!
Its for us to obey not understand and decode.
Those who know too much are in psychiatric hospitals.


Something deo!
Something de!
Who no know go know!
Who wan know too much kpata kpata e go kpemeoooo!

@ group point,
where does God's pre-destination and omni-potence fit into all you said? Don't worry, I will be able to follow your line of discussion as you proceed.

@izoneb,
Please, don't tell me you are from warri.

The final destination/decision on any soul is not made unless at the point of death. The people who are destined for paradise are determined versus the people of hell at the point of death.

We must agree that while a person is alive, the decision of doing good or evil and obedience or disobedience to God is in the Heart and the total control of the person.

So you may find a person who was evil in terms of being disobedience and probable doing all types of evil deeds, may suddenly change, right before death. the person may take on the garment of righteousness. He believes, worships and do good deeds only. On the other hand, a person might have been in the opposite camp all along, but because of the evil in his/her core, suddenly abandone true worship and became disobedience and involved in all kind of evil deeds. This person will be destined for Hell. I hope that we are all from the group that will go to paradise. Paradise is real, so is Hell.

Pls let's be careful in trying to understand God by using Logic. Beleive it or not, the more u try the more u end up being confused. Christianity is all about faith. If u beleive the Bible as the word of God (written by men through the inspiration of God) then its authenthicity should not be questioned whatsoever by any true beleiver. 2Pet 1:20,21 and so cannot be interpreted humanly. Let us pray that the Holy Spirit should guide and direct us and stop arguing unnecessarily. The bible says that God is Omniscient and We have freewill and I beleive it because it is the word of God Period.

goodguy:

I have not seen anyone saying outrightly that God is not omniscient and then using the
" " smiley afterwards.

This is a question asked in simple English. Is God really omniscient? If you can explain things to us, please do. Personally, I'm all ears. But I begin to get annoyed when I start seeing posts like "Read your Bible", "Pray to God", "Ask the Holy Spirit", etc.

macalurs, nice post there.

There is no point getting annoyed because the truth is that u can only get the answers by doing all that ,not from anyone on this forum.

@ KDK
Please, don't tell me you are from warri.

Bro I'm not waffi but summin like that.

Something deoooo is a song that was always aired on AIT sometime in 2001 by an upcoming juju singer at the time.I was very fond of it.nice song.If someone can even remind me of the guy's name I'll be glad to order his CD.

@ KDK asked:
where does God's pre-destination and omni-potence fit into all you said? Don't worry, I will be able to follow your line of discussion as you proceed.

Ans:
My point is that a better argument would be in terms of comparing God's Predsetination of Mankind. The scriptures tell us that some have been pre-destinated, called, pre-ordained before the foundations of the world. (Read Romans 8: 28-30)

If according to the scriptures, we have already been predestinated, then how can our free-will help us? There is a separate thread on this forum, where we are trying to determine if God is fair or not. Feel free to contribute to that.

Just a poser: If God, as the potter, has made some vessels unto honour, and other vessels unto dishonour. What say does the vessel have in the matter?

@oluchia
If we all carried on with your advise, then there wont be much advancement in the world. You simply couldnt convert a non christian by saying 'the bible says so'.

If you take time and study the origin of the bible, the early church, the middle ages, the dark ages,and the present time. You would realise that those who refused to reason together with God Isaiah 1:18 were usually the same people who insisted on following the word of God blindly. e.g. The world is flat. There were no dinosaurs, The earth was formed 10,000 years ago according to our biblical interpretation. The list goes on,

We have to reason together with God. Then we may recieve insight. God made the Christians, Muslims, Hindus and pagans alike. So just because one person was born a christain and finds it logical to become 'born again', does not mean a muslim or anyone else would easily find the same faith, especially when there is a lot of in fighting within this one body of Christ.

N.B.
Even Peter whom you quoted nearly missed the WAY, on few occassions (Read Galatians).

Everyone with his perspective.
There is no convincing anyone.
just say what u got. Leave out the persuasive argument. It dont work when minds are already made up.

_{I took my speech 101 class}

Grouppoint, thanks for that response to Oluchia.  I didn't know how best to reply her, so I just decided to ignore her post.


Now, Grouppoint, one thing that bothers me is this:  Why did God create Lucifer, knowing fully well that he'll rebel against Him, become the devil, and bring all sorts of calamities to mankind?  Don't tell me God did not know all these was going to happen, afterall, He is omniscient. And since He knew, why didn't He just prevent it? Afterall, He's omnipotent.

I can smell someone telling u the answer is Free-will.

There's no free-will anywhere. Infact, everything is nothing. make sense?  I guess not.

This is the only reason man remains the victim of his beliefs. ?

"Lucifer" like any of us had no choice. He was put in the position, the environment, to make him top-priority. His head was wired by God, his emotions his very core and tendencies. There's no free-anything. Life's fun

live with it

@grouppoint
Point of correction, My statement was meant specifically for Christians who know what they beleive in not to Muslims, hindus and the rest of them that u quoted. I beleive the person who started this thread also had Christians in mind when she posted the thread considering the fact that she quoted the bible so We are not trying to convert any non christian here. Do you reason together with God using logic. God cannot come down physically to explin himself to you. That is why he has given us the Bible as a guide. The Bible is his word, His character, His mind and so all the answers u need are there. All u need is to study it prayerfully with the guidance of the Holy spirit and he will direct ur path except if u do not beleive in it.

@Oluchia
My point of contention is that in the past, Christians refused to reason out of the box. They were simply content with saying 'its the word of God'. It was not until people started reasoning the issues out that you then had protestants, and Pentecostal reforms.

Hence, when someone asks, Is God omniscient?, and does man have free-will? , The person already knows its in the scriptures, but wishes to clarify seeming inconsistencies or conflict in both concepts.

Its our duty to rightly divide the word! Rather than re-state that which seems already obvious!

Why do you think the Lord rebuked the religious people of His day? They felt their actions and traditions were in the scripture, and refused to reason it out. (read Christ as the Lord of the Sabbath, others).

This said, I do appreciate your standpoint as well.

@Goodguy
I suppose what everyone would like is a situation where there was no lucifer, and hence, no need for man to sin. However, this would also mean that we wont be really made in God's image.

Besides we should not ask 'why did God create lucifer', since luficer was created before man.

Shall we go deeper? I suspect you would say yes, but I believe that we need to carry others along. Hence, let us still keep it simple.

Now, let us understand that their were several Arch Angels in Heaven. God created the angels and attributed the highest position to Lucifer. Satan also had in his authority the government of the earth. These angels also had 'freewill'. It was out of freewill that Lucifer chose to sin. It was not God that made him do it!

A reason for his sin was that he wanted to take Gods place and rule the universe. Read Isaiah 14:12-15

A consequence of this sin was that he was cast down to earth and the heavenlies with a 3rd of the fallen angels.
Their existence on the earth led to earth being without form and void.


Hence, In the begining, 'Begining of Man's existence in flesh'(as opposed to the begining of the universe), the devil already existed on the earth. It was God's plan for man to regain dominion over the earth. God then created man in His image. Man's main purpose was to have dominion on this earth, using his freewill.
The 1st Man fell, just like the devil.
Again, It was not God that made him do it.

The overall plan is this , In order to choose God you must have another choice to turn down. God has created the entire earth, nature, and even our physical compostion such that it all points to this dichotomy; left/right. Light/dark, white/black, Good/Evil etc

Freewill:
-Some angels chose to fall
-Some Men are choosing right now to fall.

OmniScience:
-God, knowing this, has provided a way: Jesus Christ (Who Himself applied His freewill to our benefit)

God's omnipotence is evident in the fact that could have decided to destroy lucifer outright, even before the creation of Man. But then the main purpose of man's existence is for man to reject and effectually destroy satan and his works through Jesus Christ.

Therefore, I make bold to say that if lucifer was not in existence, then neither would mankind.

Can someone please define 'free-will'?

This thread is getting more and more interesting and more confusing.  grouppoint u are doing a GREAT job here.

But pls answer this question.

i hope u believe in the trinity? so If God is OMNISCIENT, automatically, Jesus too will be Omniscient, Right?

So if Jesus still knew that he MUST die on the cross, then why did he tell God the Father this " IF IT IS POSIBLE LET THIS CUP PASS OVER ME"  

What i am tryng to say here is that there was no use for such a plea, since he already know that no matter the plea, sorrows and tears, what will be will be.

From all that has been said here in this forum, i think or should i say that i am forced to believe that old saying that WHAT EVER WILL BE WILL BE, thus implying that man has NO free will. (i still stand to be corrected)

@KDK, long time   , are u ready to tell me where u got my data from- offline

@ Ugonna,

@ugonna0071 you asked. If God is OMNISCIENT, automatically, Jesus too will be Omniscient, Right?

That is not necessarily true. Christ himself said thus;
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)

This statement tells you that the Son is not all-knowing.

I sincerely hope this does not 'confuse' you. Please understand that the 3 persons in one God does not confer equality amongst the 3 . Just as God was never a man, so also was Christ never the Father.

Further you asked: Why did Christ make the plea, knowing the end result?

Again, Christ came to do the will of God and to finish it. However, He came in form of flesh, and as such was subject to the same temptations and weakness as we are. If you had concluded the verse which you quoted, you would agree that Christ laid the perfect example (Not my will, but thy will be done).

@GROUPPOINT,
APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE!! APPLAUSE!!!  (for the above post only).

here's a mind blowing discussion for anyone on the term free-will. Be patient enough to read it all, then come back here and make a post.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/board/nest/41937129

Grouppoint, are you saying now that, even though God has the power to prevent all things, he doesn't necessarily have to interfere in all our matters?  Since God knew what Satan would do to mankind, why did He still allow him?  Or are you trying to say God takes delight in the suffering of mankind, all in the name of "exercising our freewill"?

Grouppoint:

Freewill:
-Some angels chose to fall
-Some Men are choosing right now to fall.

The is my point of contention.  Why didn't/can't God just prevent angels, men from falling?  He has the power to do so.  He knows we're humans and not everyone can do his will.  And again, he created hell fire for those who will fall, never to rise again? 

Why can't he just prevent all these and allow everyone live a beautiful, peaceful, lovely life without the devil and all he has to offer?

Grouppoint:

Again, Christ came to do the will of God and to finish it. However, He came in form of flesh, and as such was subject to the same temptations and weakness as we are.

Very well stated. I was going to say the same thing too.

Talking about Free will, I want to ask Christians on board why is it that when they pray, they ask for God's will to be done.

We catholics say this prayer Jesus I love you, all i have is thine, yours i am and yours i want to be, DO WITH ME WHATEVER YOU WILL.

So if God is to do whatever he will with us, where do our free-will stand

Ugonna asked: So if God is to do whatever he will with us, where do our free-will stand ?

Ans:
Therein lies the purpose of salvation. That if you surrender your freewill to God, through christ, then you are saved.