Hi KDK and others,

Sometimes I just like to follow a thread and hear what people have to say. I figured from the length of this one that there was something worth hearing.

I can't say I've been diligent to read it all, but I am posting because I see that "Universalism" has cropped up.

Now, I don't claim to be a Universalist (The notion that everyone will ultimately be saved), but on the course of study and research, I have come across writings about it, and particularly L. Ray Smith.

To be honest like many (most?) Christians, I had a default position of eternal heaven and hell. After stumbling across Universalism and studying some and praying a bit, I wasn't convinced enough to make a wholesale change.

I am always the first to say that with the plain Word of scripture and leading of the Holy Spirit, I am willing to re-appraise, not being tied to any denomination or yoked by tradition.

I realise it's a walk, and one makes it personally, not by proxy or via 3rd parties. Universalism may well be 100% true, maybe I'm just not there yet, or not mature enough to see or handle it.

Having said that, I have a few questions to start, specifically for KDK, but open to all.

1. KDK are you an avowed Universalist? Do you subscribe to L. Ray Smiths teachings on the doctrine in their entirety? Are their any other subscribers to this doctrine out there?

2. The whole doctrine to a great degree turns on the theory of free-will, specifically mans free will.
I have never had any issue with God's sovreignity or His omniscience. I believe the whole of history and the universe is steadily moving towards a consumation that He has proposed and nothing can change that. I believe that nothing happens without His knowledge. But the Bible clearly shows that God does not tempt men, nor cause them to sin. How does one explain that within Universalism, which seems to suggest that our every desire is initiated and our every action precipitated by God- regardless of whether it is good or evil?

Thanks

God bless

I'm loving this thread. I'll post on later

Sometimes the problem with God concept is the way is presented - the image painted. People need a more understandable explanation. Something that can be realated to our physical sorrounding. The issue of "accept it without caring to understand" sometimes is the root of unbelief.

Again its hard to accept we have an all caring deity up there in the face of terrible, traumatic events going on in the world today.
It brings up the issue of why God allows suffering even for an absolutely innocent new born.

Regardless of all these speculations and rebellion, there surely is proof that something, if not God is out there.
If not, how would you explain the existence of the universe. There surely, was a beginning somewhere.
Call it the big bang and i'll ask you what led to the big bang. Surely some forces ignited it.
That force is God.

I had painted a pict on here earlier that seemed to depict God a sadist, I was punished for that , but thanks KDK. I simply was trying to say, that man has no free-will, whether he believes in God or not, whether we write an equation of science or scripture. It's just one of man's attributes: his inability to have free-will.

The theory that every man will be saved in the end is just an inference. The same as the inference that states that every man will perish that does not recieve the gospel. They're just assumptions men make with available information-- the ones they understand. Most people recieve the gospel just as was said: second-hand.

We must bear in mind that there have been many books that were excluded from the Bible. You could check on that. Maybe we could have found explanation to these debates and misunderstandings we now have. The Bible in this respect, is incomplete.

The more indepth one researches, the more controversial his inference, simply because: "most people would rather die than think, and infact they do."

@macalurs,

the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible are nothing more than Gnostic writings. A very good example is the "The Gospel of Judas", purported to be among the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible. A book that was written 150 years AD. Excluded book indeed!!

I suggest you wikipedia about Gnostics and their beliefs and also the gospel of judas.

gbade. x:

@macalurs,

the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible are nothing more than Gnostic writings. A very good example is the "The Gospel of Judas", purported to be among the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible. A book that was written 150 years AD. Excluded book indeed!!

I suggest you wikipedia about Gnostics and their beliefs and also the gospel of judas.

and the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas"? If you read my post well, I said "Maybe we could have found explanation to these debates and misunderstandings we now have". If you've read all of these missing texts of the bible, then yes I stand to be corrected. They were dispelled for different reasons, not just for reasons you mentioned.

Hmmm, this is interesting. KDK, are you a pastor?

TV01:

Hi KDK and others,

Sometimes I just like to follow a thread and hear what people have to say. I figured from the length of this one that there was something worth hearing.

I can't say I've been diligent to read it all, but I am posting because I see that "Universalism" has cropped up.

Now, I don't claim to be a Universalist (The notion that everyone will ultimately be saved), but on the course of study and research, I have come across writings about it, and particularly L. Ray Smith.

To be honest like many (most?) Christians, I had a default position of eternal heaven and hell. After stumbling across Universalism and studying some and praying a bit, I wasn't convinced enough to make a wholesale change.

I am always the first to say that with the plain Word of scripture and leading of the Holy Spirit, I am willing to re-appraise, not being tied to any denomination or yoked by tradition.

I realise it's a walk, and one makes it personally, not by proxy or via 3rd parties. Universalism may well be 100% true, maybe I'm just not there yet, or not mature enough to see or handle it.

Having said that, I have a few questions to start, specifically for KDK, but open to all.

1. KDK are you an avowed Universalist? Do you subscribe to L. Ray Smiths teachings on the doctrine in their entirety? Are their any other subscribers to this doctrine out there?

2. The whole doctrine to a great degree turns on the theory of free-will, specifically mans free will.
I have never had any issue with God's sovreignity or His omniscience. I believe the whole of history and the universe is steadily moving towards a consumation that He has proposed and nothing can change that. I believe that nothing happens without His knowledge. But the Bible clearly shows that God does not tempt men, nor cause them to sin. How does one explain that within Universalism, which seems to suggest that our every desire is initiated and our every action precipitated by God- regardless of whether it is good or evil?

Thanks

God bless

First of all, I had to exercise a lot of restraint before I typed this.  All directed at this KDK character for submitting a book in a thread!

It seems that Seun might need to introduce some guideliness for the amount of words per post because simple common sense doesn't seem to be prevailing as is evident in this thread. This idiot KDK!  

Why in the world do I have to painstakingly scroll down a 6 Part book on a thread? Don't I want to read someone else's submission?? Oh my God, don't you realise that other people want a space on the thread too? Does KDK really believe that posting all that drivel , crap, nonsesne here will "force" people to read ir?.  Believe me it will have the complete opposite effect.  Aggravating annoying bull shit!! For heaven's sake, either post extracts or post the link!!!!!!!!!

What nonsense! Sometimes I wonder.  

Anyway, ranting aside , TV,  While I understand your openness to things concerning God, I hope you were joking about  seriously considering the bull shite ( yup, I said it) bull shite that KDK posted or that Universalism, a spin off of Humanism has anything to do with true christianity.

In the first paragraph alone the author equates free will to free moral agency when one is completely separate from the other.

This is a very complex theology that you really have to think about openly, study, and eventually the error will break through, as it did when I took on Jen33 about Reincarnation.  

Very subtle and very inviting deception.

Trini_girl,
Could we discuss off thread?

i thought this thread was over

@KDK thought you left nairaland. welcome back bro

trini_girl:

Anyway, ranting aside , TV,  While I understand your openness to things concerning God, I hope you were joking about  seriously considering the bull shite ( yup, I said it) bull shite that KDK posted or that Universalism, a spin off of Humanism has anything to do with true christianity.

Hi Trini, Thanks for this post, I've been waiting for a reply to this, but the thread seemed to go quiet immediately I posed my question. I considered Universalism (or aspects of it), like I try to do most doctrine I come across. The usual questions - Do I feel a Spirit led resonance? Does it fit into the unified whole? - I was never quite convinced by Universalism as a whole, but it did pose some interesting questions.

trini_girl:

In the first paragraph alone the author equates free will to free moral agency when one is completely separate from the other.

This is a very complex theology that you really have to think about openly, study, and eventually the error will break through, as it did when I took on Jen33 about Reincarnation.  

Not being convinced, I never really delved deep into it. Like a lot of stuff, I parked it until an opportune moment, so when it cropped up here on Nairaland, I followed a while and then posed my question. I particularly like the distinction you made between free will and free moral agency. It's not one I made. Seems to suggest some sort of "verbal sleight of hand" being used to make this stick. It's a common ploy in trying to make deception sound like the truth. Using the same phrases, but having different meanings, or language that sounds familiar to mask heresy.

Thanks again, and I'd appreciate anything else anyone has to share that conclusively nail this.

God bless

KDK:

Trini_girl,
Could we discuss off thread?

of course not!

Lafile,
Thanx Bro, I am still on Nairaland. I am currently in Nigeria and I have had little or no time to be online so as to write something substantial. Thanx and keep the flame burning. God bless you all.

KDK:

Lafile,
Thanx Bro, I am still on Nairaland. I am currently in Nigeria and I have had little or not time to be online to write something substantial. Thanx and keep the flame burning. God bless you all.

i am waiting.

_{** sharpening knives in anticipation **}

@trini girk, pls take it easy on KDK


@KDK, so you are in town (as in Niaja)!!! Na wa for you o

Ugonna,
I am so sorry ma'am, I ought to have called. I will endeavour to do so within the next few days. Take care and God bless you.

@ Trini_gurl,
I can draw only 3 conclusions from all your comments about kdk:

1. You are either fascinated by the character KDK. or

2. He is your worst nightmare.  or

3. You just want to get his attention.


As for number 3, he is already paying it    , so enjoy it while it lasts. Take care and pipe down , will you?  God bless you

KDK:

@ Trini_gurl,
I can draw only 3 conclusions from all your comments about kdk:

1. You are either fascinated by the character KDK. or

ummm, no

KDK:

2. He is your worst nightmare. or

not really

KDK:

3. You just want to get his attention.

hmmmm

KDK:

As for number 3, he is already paying it , so enjoy it while it lasts. Take care and pipe down , will you? God bless you

let's discuss this offline

OFF-TOPIC
@ Trini_gurl
How do we discuss offline?

yes he is. He knows everything

Which god ooooo?

there are numerous gods, allah, chi, olodumare, jehovah, yaweh,elyon,mawu etc

IDINRETE:

Which god ooooo?

there are numerous gods, allah, chi, olodumare, jehovah, yaweh,elyon,mawu etc

All the name belong to one person which is our creator. Nationals have different name for Him, The Jews gave God many names because of the wonderful things He did to them. We have one God who is above all things

well dear Poster

I believe you have the right to ask what ever question u want

we Believe that God is Omniscient

This is what we believe , now Belief, which is based on Faith,
Faith is Believing in Something without any proof of it's existence

So we can never be Sure for a fact whether he is Omniscient but we believe without having Proof that he is
That is why we say " have FAITH in God "

i like this topic you seem to have a very Philosophic Mind

God is Omniscient. We just dont know Him well enough, yet.

I all I am a pastor and 'own' (actually God owns everything) a very modest non preaching church and two very modest missions. Our doctrine is open Christian theism which is a rather radical non traditional form of Christianity that is sometimes criticized by my more standard or traditional Christian brothers and sisters. Just a bit of background. Do I think that God is Omniscient? This is a complicated question. I see God existing outside of the temporal universe (the same place he was before the creation of the universe etc), but he is connected and permeates the temporal universe. So God is 100% perfect in his domain and is as perfect as allowable in the temporal universe (where we live). I will be happy to clarify my answer to anyone. ; }>

@rev2bit,
Your answer does not state whether you beleive that God is Omniscient or not.

100% perfect is still not the same as Omiscient.

So feel free to clarify, else you shall be accused of bloviating.

Finally, why do you not preach? Did Christ not preach, and command us to preach.

Hi Grouppoint. Boviating? I have been around this old world a few times but that is a new word, I assume its a minor derogatory slur indicating that I am full of hot air? In any case I shall attempt to answer your question/statement.

First, with all due respect, I did answer the question. God is all knowing , however we, as humans cannot hope to verify this because we are inherently limited by a flesh and blood body, not to mention existing living in a universe tainted by sin. When we are taken up to be with God we will be able to understand his Omniscience.

Secondly God has not called me to preach, he has called me to create the two missions and the church. The missions , Mountain Manna Mission is a humanitarian food bank type mission which fills the soul as well as the belly, while the Mission of Crosses is a spiritual mission dedicated to building and installing religious symbols and installing these symbols (usually three at least 10 meter crosses on private land). Thanks for your reply and I hope I have avoided the dreaded moniker of Boviating! ; {>

God cannot possibly be Omniscient and Perfect at the same time. The properties contradict themselves when you compare The Creator with Creation.

JayFK, yes I said that in a convoluted way , so we are in agreement of sorts! God can be both but he may have a reason for not making a 'perfect' creation etc, ; }>

God is all knowing. That means that God knows of everything that is in existence in all his creations. It also means that the laws of God govern every happening in all creations, and whatever has happened, is happening or will happen will be subject to those laws. Since these laws are immutable, it is very possible to forsee the final efects or consequences of any decision or movement made by individuals, nations and even the whole of mankind. Freewill and Gods omniscience are very compatible since man is free to make a decision but the consequence of his decision will be according to the laws of God and that is why it is very possible to predict future events. Those who are called by God to see into the beginning of every action can make accurate prophecies. However the begining of most decision is in the spiritual, not in the brain. Most often the brain is unaware of those decisions and in many cases the spiritual decsions have been taken for centuries, years , days etc. Faith is not believe in something without proof as most seem to suggest. People who have true faith has proof except that the proof is non-physical. God and his working can only be understood with the spirit. It is an irony that material, physical proofs are being demanded for something that is not material. It is impossible for the intellect or its product (science) to understand God.

@rev2Bit,
Dont worry, you may just have redeemed yourself from the apellation of one who bloviates.

But tell me, why would God tell us things on this earth that we are incapable of understanding until we get to heaven?

Saying this, if heaven is eternity i.e. outside of time, then would we all not become omniscient, seeing that time is really the difference between God and man.
i.e. God knows our end from our begining, since He is already there at the end.

Please ensure that your replies remain pithy.