dolphinheart:


I know that jesus fell with his face to the ground to pray, but never heard of jesus fall to the ground to pray like muslims do . Mt 26:39.

Bowing with there face to the ground have also been done by orientals who worshiped idols before islam .

.......... That doesn't answer my question young man! Did jesus worship(dance, invite celebrities to come and perform, sing, play guitar, piano etc) the way u guys worship now

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:15


1. It's obvious to see those who set out to be deceptive on these threads. 

2. They may set out as wolves in sheep clothing; appearing at first to be 'innocent' discussant then turning out later to become vicious. 

3. It is clear from the Quran that Abraham asked for a son. 
It is also clear that Sarah was involved.  
It is clear that the Quran states that: "we gave him.......Isaac" and "we blessed him and Isaac" 

4. If Abraham and Sarah are involved who is their son? Obviously Isaac. 

5. The ONLY son that Abraham had with his CHOICE wife Sarah is Isaac. Even in the Quran Abraham's relationship with Sarah is the one projected; not any other least of all between him and Hagar. 

6. There is emphasis in the Quran as to the good news of the birth of Isaac - AND WE GAVE HER THE GOOD NEWS OF ISAAC (Q.11:71).
No such emphasis is placed on the birth of Ishmael. 

7. It should be obvious that since Sarah (and not Hagar) was the one barren, Abraham’s  prayer to God to grant him a righteous son (Q.37:100) could not have been for a son through Hagar. 
Sarah's comment in Q.11:72 buttresses this. 

8. The son born through God's promise - the good news- and miraculous intervention was therefore Isaac. The Covenant was to be perpetuated through him. 

9. So, a careful reflection on relevant portions of the Quran points to Isaac and not Ishmael. Any reference to any other source outside the Quran to refute this is contradiction of the Quran's claim. 

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:15

it seems like I don't understand English, make I move.

Teekrayne:
.......... That doesn't answer my question young man! Did jesus worship(dance, invite celebrities to come and perform, sing, play guitar, piano etc) the way u guys worship now

Bro, seems you are Mixing up ur questions o,question 3 and 4 as asked by you are totally different. and it seems you did not read my reply on singing and use of instrument as it is done then and today.

How can a congregation invite celebrity? To come and do what? To help them sing?
If you have read my post, you would have seen the words humility and modesty, words that a Christian must exhibit in all things, even when singing praise Bro, you do not know how I worship and praise my God, you should not have used the word " you guys".

dolphinheart:


Bro, seems you are Mixing up ur questions o,question 3 and 4 as asked by you are totally different. and it seems you did not read my reply on singing and use of instrument as it is done then and today.

How can a congregation invite celebrity? To come and do what? To help them sing?
If you have read my post, you would have seen the words humility and modesty, words that a Christian must exhibit in all things, even when singing praise Bro, you do not know how I worship and praise my God, you should not have used the word " you guys".

Bros, I've diligently followed u, and i must commend u that u've done more than enough for these people most especially Teekrayne but he ( they ) are just bent on repeating the old question that has been answer severally to justify their own ways of worship which were pre-islamic pagan practices.

Pls sir, since he insists that we are not worshiping the right way that we must prostrate with our faces on the ground , ask him to show us where in the Bible Jesus specifically ask us to do so, or better still he should show us how Jesus ask us to worship God in the Bible, if he cannot , then i will suggest u forget about the guy.

God bless u sir!!!

Teekrayne:
.......... That doesn't answer my question young man! Did jesus worship(dance, invite celebrities to come and perform, sing, play guitar, piano etc) the way u guys worship now

This is how Jesus taught us to pray and there is no mention of falling on the face like muslims and pagans do there.



Matthew 6:5-16

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Teekrayne:
.......... That doesn't answer my question young man! Did jesus worship(dance, invite celebrities to come and perform, sing, play guitar, piano etc) the way u guys worship now

The levites were the priestly class and they had singers and instrumentalist amongst them as far back as the old testament. David is also recorded to dance to worship God.

2 chronicles 5:12
All the Levites who were musicians--Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives--stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.

Annunaki:


The levites were the priestly class and they had singers and instrumentalist amongst them as far back as the old testament. David is also recorded to dance to worship God.

2 chronicles 5:12
All the Levites who were musicians--Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives--stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.

......... How come Jehovah witness and Deeper life shuns using musical instrument Or do they read a different bible? Don't they call on the same God just like other Christians

Samunique:
Bros, I've diligently followed u, and i must commend u that u've done more than enough for these people most especially Teekrayne but he ( they ) are just bent on repeating the old question that has been answer severally to justify their own ways of worship which were pre-islamic pagan practices.

Pls sir, since he insists that we are not worshiping the right way that we must prostrate with our faces on the ground , ask him to show us where in the Bible Jesus specifically ask us to do so, or better still he should show us how Jesus ask us to worship God in the Bible, if he cannot , then i will suggest u forget about the guy.

God bless u sir!!!

......... Buhahahahaahahahah....... Wetin dis one dey talk again? Ehhhen, for your mind now, u don throw punchline How sure are u that he has done justice to my questions Can you show me where it is boldly written in d bible that you should also do the aforementioned? Let me quote the verses for u to know that I am not the so called "guy" you are thinking!!.... All prophets/servants of God/messengers that came before and after Jesus prayed while bowing down/falling on the ground with their face..... It is better for you to belt up and allow the person you are defending to continue with me. Better still, if you want to come into the picture and assist your brother, you are welcome! ...................................................................................."And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." - New Testament (Matthew 26:39)
 
"And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid." - New Testament (Matthew 17:6)
 
"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying," - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Genesis 17:3)
 
"Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Genesis 17:17)
 
"And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped." - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Exodus 34:
 
“And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.” - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Numbers 20:6)
 
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Numbers 16:20-22)
 
And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground. - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Nehemiah 8:6)
 
"And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Joshua 5:14)
 
"And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Ezekiel 9:
 
"And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD." - Old Testament (Tanakh) (2 Chronicles 20:18)
 
"And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Ezekiel 11:13)

dolphinheart:


Bro, seems you are Mixing up ur questions o,question 3 and 4 as asked by you are totally different. and it seems you did not read my reply on singing and use of instrument as it is done then and today.

How can a congregation invite celebrity? To come and do what? To help them sing?
If you have read my post, you would have seen the words humility and modesty, words that a Christian must exhibit in all things, even when singing praise Bro, you do not know how I worship and praise my God, you should not have used the word " you guys".

.......... To entertain the congregation when they are bored!!!! We have recently seen churches where some of our celebrities were invited to perform.......Korede performed in a church of late.... We have also seen churches where comedians were invited to perform.... Acapella is an example!

dolphinheart:


Bro, seems you are Mixing up ur questions o,question 3 and 4 as asked by you are totally different. and it seems you did not read my reply on singing and use of instrument as it is done then and today.

How can a congregation invite celebrity? To come and do what? To help them sing?
If you have read my post, you would have seen the words humility and modesty, words that a Christian must exhibit in all things, even when singing praise Bro, you do not know how I worship and praise my God, you should not have used the word " you guys".

.......... Brother, you are contradicting yourself! Quite alright I have not seen you worship. Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that the way you call on your God is different from the way Christians call on their God? Why can't I use "you guys"?? Aren't u a christian? They call on celebrities to entertain the congregation when they are bored!!!! We have recently seen churches where some of our celebrities were invited to perform.......Korede performed in a church of late. The thread even made front page... We have also seen churches where comedians were invited to perform.... Acapella is an example!.... I watched it, I was not told.....

Annunaki:


This is how Jesus taught us to pray and there is no mention of falling on the face like muslims and pagans do there.



Matthew 6:5-16

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

....... Pardon my manners, I know about the lord's prayer..... What are the sources of the aforementioned quotes as said by Jesus If its the bible, where is it......... Proof that prophets/servants of God/Messengers who came before and after Jesus fell on their face and prayed..................................................................................... "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." - New Testament (Matthew 26:39)
 
"And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid." - New Testament (Matthew 17:6)
 
"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying," - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Genesis 17:3)
 
"Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Genesis 17:17)
 
"And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped." - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Exodus 34:
 
“And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.” - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Numbers 20:6)
 
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Numbers 16:20-22)
 
And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground. - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Nehemiah 8:6)
 
"And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Joshua 5:14)
 
"And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Ezekiel 9:
 
"And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD." - Old Testament (Tanakh) (2 Chronicles 20:18)
 
"And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?" - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Ezekiel 11:13)

Teekrayne:
.......... Brother, you are contradicting yourself! Quite alright I have not seen you worship. Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that the way you call on your God is different from the way Christians call on their God? Why can't I use "you guys"?? Aren't u a christian? They call on celebrities to entertain the congregation when they are bored!!!! We have recently seen churches where some of our celebrities were invited to perform.......Korede performed in a church of late. The thread even made front page... We have also seen churches where comedians were invited to perform.... Acapella is an example!.... I watched it, I was not told.....

Bro , first of all, ur question on singing and use of instrument is different from your question on how jesus prayed. Worship and praise are two different things though praise can be termed as a form or part of worship.

On the use of instrument in a religious gathering .- one of the initial statements I made when replying you on this is that churches today have different ways, means and process of offering praise through the use of musical instruments, and that you should not lump up all christians mode of praise based on the one you have seen . The bible should be used as a guide to determine if a particular church method is right or wrong.

I then told you that using musical intruments is not wrong cus the bible showed us that other prophets of God used it, it was used in the temple, and even God had a say in the arrangement of music and musical instruments in his worship.
I told you that is is not said that jesus used musical instruments, but we know that he and his disciples sang. We also know that his apostles used to sing as part of their worship to God. The use of instrument is used in the future to sing praises to God in heaven as used in the past, these shows that it is not wrong to use it in the present.
But how do you use it in the present- you use it with modesty, respect and humility, bearing in mind the importance or what you are doing.

God does not like this form of worship1)when you use musical instruments and sing to God without considering others in the area.
(2) when you use musical instruments and sing in a way that portray worldly methods and ideas
(3) when you use musical instruments and sing in a way that shows you are more concerned about the effect of the instruments and the voice of the singer(s) than the actual praise .

I did this explanation is such a way that you can now go back and look at the different church mode of praise again and see if they follow guidelines. So that you can assess them individually.

I dnt know why they used korede Bello but I can tell you that God will not listen to someones praise and worship more than another person just because that someone has a better voice Bro.

On question that relates to how jesus prayed, jesus did not always pray with his face to the ground. Pls note the word always . In the old days, people normally worship by putting there face to the ground towards the one they are worshiping, even pagans and idol worshipers do that too. But the bible did not give a direct order on how to position ourself during prayer, but rather layed emphasis on what you should pray about and the purpose of ur prayer. Its the heart condition that God looks at and not ur physical position or the distance between ur head and the ground.

Samunique:
Bros, I've diligently followed u, and i must commend u that u've done more than enough for these people most especially Teekrayne but he ( they ) are just bent on repeating the old question that has been answer severally to justify their own ways of worship which were pre-islamic pagan practices.

Pls sir, since he insists that we are not worshiping the right way that we must prostrate with our faces on the ground , ask him to show us where in the Bible Jesus specifically ask us to do so, or better still he should show us how Jesus ask us to worship God in the Bible, if he cannot , then i will suggest u forget about the guy.

God bless u sir!!!

Thanks a lot Bro, though I do not accept or support the word " these people" that you used there o.

dolphinheart:


Bro , first of all, ur question on singing and use of instrument is different from your question on how jesus prayed. Worship and praise are two different things though praise can be termed as a form or part of worship.

On the use of instrument in a religious gathering .- one of the initial statements I made when replying you on this is that churches today have different ways, means and process of offering praise through the use of musical instruments, and that you should not lump up all christians mode of praise based on the one you have seen . The bible should be used as a guide to determine if a particular church method is right or wrong.

I then told you that using musical intruments is not wrong cus the bible showed us that other prophets of God used it, it was used in the temple, and even God had a say in the arrangement of music and musical instruments in his worship.
I told you that is is not said that jesus used musical instruments, but we know that he and his disciples sang. We also know that his apostles used to sing as part of their worship to God. The use of instrument is used in the future to sing praises to God in heaven as used in the past, these shows that it is not wrong to use it in the present.
But how do you use it in the present- you use it with modesty, respect and humility, bearing in mind the importance or what you are doing.

God does not like this form of worship1)when you use musical instruments and sing to God without considering others in the area.
(2) when you use musical instruments and sing in a way that portray worldly methods and ideas
(3) when you use musical instruments and sing in a way that shows you are more concerned about the effect of the instruments and the voice of the singer(s) than the actual praise .

I did this explanation is such a way that you can now go back and look at the different church mode of praise again and see if they follow guidelines. So that you can assess them individually.

I dnt know why they used korede Bello but I can tell you that God will not listen to someones praise and worship more than another person just because that someone has a better voice Bro.

On question that relates to how jesus prayed, jesus did not always pray with his face to the ground. Pls note the word always . In the old days, people normally worship by putting there face to the ground towards the one they are worshiping, even pagans and idol worshipers do that too. But the bible did not give a direct order on how to position ourself during prayer, but rather layed emphasis on what you should pray about and the purpose of ur prayer. Its the heart condition that God looks at and not ur physical position or the distance between ur head and the ground.

............ Access them individually to know who is doing it right or wrong? Noted!...... How come Jehovah Witness, Deeper Lifers, Catholic churches do not use musical instruments? Could we say they read a different version of the bible which is supposed to pass one message across to all Christians

Teekrayne:
......... How come Jehovah witness and Deeper life shuns using musical instrument Or do they read a different bible? Don't they call on the same God just like other Christians

Go and ask the jehovah witness and deeper life were they learnt their doctrines from

Teekrayne:
............ Access them individually to know who is doing it right or wrong? Noted!...... How come Jehovah Witness, Deeper Lifers, Catholic churches do not use musical instruments? Could we say they read a different version of the bible which is supposed to pass one message across to all Christians

Brother pls, make sure u always do your research properly before u come to a forum like this for discussion!!!

You know why?

JW, Deeper life and Catholic use musical instruments.
Pls get your facts right, go to JW.org and download their hymns.


Meanwhile @ concerning the way they prayed in the Bible:

I know your arguement is that some people prayed with their faces on the ground?

Good, the question is did they do so according to divine injunction bidding on them that they must worship God that way? The answer is NO.

It will be very hypocritical of us to concentrate on their "positioning" while living aside other ritualistic aspects that constitute the completeness of their worship as far as OT worship is concern.

So for u to consentrate only on " they fell with their faces on the ground" as a mode of worship in the Bible and living behind the complete pattern and ordinances that accompanied entirety of their worship like singing "praises" to God and other ritualstic aspects, is not only half-baked but malicious and misleading, maybe u are doing that to justify the Islamic way of worship but i tell u, it's like comparing white and black, they have no similarity!!!

Pls go and study the book of exodus and numbers.

Concerning NT worship, Jesus told us clearly how to worship God.

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and NOW is, when the true worshipers shall worship the father in "spirit" and in truth: for the father seeketh such to worship Him.
For God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

For the use of musical instruments and singing pls read Psalm 100, 150, Rev 14: 2-3.

Note: If your are not yet satisfied, then u will have to tell us where God/Jesus in the Bible specifically passed an injunction that we should worship/pray, "falling down with our faces on the ground.

Remain blessed bro!!!

Samunique:
Brother pls, make sure u always do your research properly before u come to a forum like this for discussion!!!

You know why?

JW, Deeper life and Catholic use musical instruments.
Pls get your facts right, go to JW.org and download their hymns.


Meanwhile @ concerning the way they prayed in the Bible:

I know your arguement is that some people prayed with their faces on the ground?

Good, the question is did they do so according to divine injunction bidding on them that they must worship God that way? The answer is NO.

It will be very hypocritical of us to concentrate on their "positioning" while living aside other ritualistic aspects that constitute the completeness of their worship as far as OT worship is concern.

So for u to consentrate only on " they fell with their faces on the ground" as a mode of worship in the Bible and living behind the complete pattern and ordinances that accompanied entirety of their worship like singing "praises" to God and other ritualstic aspects, is not only half-baked but malicious and misleading, maybe u are doing that to justify the Islamic way of worship but i tell u, it's like comparing white and black, they have no similarity!!!

Pls go and study the book of exodus and numbers.

Concerning NT worship, Jesus told us clearly how to worship God.

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and NOW is, when the true worshipers shall worship the father in "spirit" and in truth: for the father seeketh such to worship Him.
For God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

For the use of musical instruments and singing pls read Psalm 100, 150, Rev 14: 2-3.

Note: If your are not yet satisfied, then u will have to tell us where God/Jesus in the Bible specifically passed an injunction that we should worship/pray, "falling down with our faces on the ground.

Remain blessed bro!!!

............ Well, we are all learning.... I don't mean to denigrate any religion here. The choice is yours. You can choose to serve anything you feel like. I only told you what I know and it was not intended to defame or bring down any religion.....

Annunaki:


Go and ask the jehovah witness and deeper life were they learnt their doctrines from

..... Ok

dolphinheart:


Bro, God/ god/ GOD is anything you give veneration and worship.

There are many and different kind of gods. The use of God in the bible is to try to differentiate the almighty from other gods even though it is not like that in the original manuscripts.

"(I) and the father are one one " . Does this statement mean that jesus is the father? Are they the same person ?
What does this statements mean
A. "The father is greater than (I)"
B. " that you may be one with me just as I'm one with the father"(rough quote).
C. " I've not yet ascended to my God and ur God"(rough quote)
D. " and the head of man is Christ, and the head of christ is God".

Look at jesus statement after the accusations " because I said, I am the son of God?"
Angel gabriel did not tell Mary she will give birth to God almighty or a part of God almighty ,he said "Gods son".

When jesus asks his disciples, "who do you think I am" , they said " son of the living God "


U say soul cannot die? The bible says "the soul that is sinning will die!"
Pls show where it is said that the soul is immortal or that adam was giving a soul or that the soul leaves the body at death?.

If jesus is "word of God" cus he was giving birth to by word, are the angels "word of god" too.?

Is the bible the word of God, and why?

Yes there are many gods but we believed in one true God .
We are going to understand that Jesus is God if we stop limit the capability and power of God.

I want us to know that Jesus is Son of God, he is messanger of God, he is son of man, he is son of David and he is God. If you refers to him as whichever of those titles you are right because that was how he was been refers to in the scripture but it take the spirit of God and the knowledge of the scripture to understand why he was called like that. You can't say because he was called this is not that.

You we agree with me that in Bible, Jesus always refers to himself as son of man. Jesus did/does not want to reveal his identity when on earth that is why he forbids the unclean spirits of exposing him. He also forbids his disciples of revealing all what they saw
while he was still on earth.

In Book of Matthew 16: 13 he aske his disciples that " Whom do men say that i the son of man is? The disciples answered ;some say you are John the baptize, some say Elias and other, Jeremiah or one of the prophet
He then asked them " But whom say you that iam?Simon Peter answered ,thou art the Christ the son of of the living God"
whe he said this Jesus did not dispute his statement but commended his saying "
Blessed art thou Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood not revealed it unto you but my father which is in heaven"
why can't we say Saimon Peter is wrong because Jesus called himself son of man

how was he son of God? Did God has wife? No, but there is reason for that.

On Jesus being God, its not i that called him God but the scripture itself did. Let read what the book of Isaiah says about him


Isaiah 9:6
" for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , THE MIGHTY GOD, the everlasting father , the prince of peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever.The zeal of Lord of host will perform this"

Do you see it? Jesus was calle Mighty God

the Book of John shed more light to why Jesus is God. Let read

John 1-4
In the beginnig was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God
The same was in the beginnig with God.All things were made by him; and without was nothing made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men ;and light shinneth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"

we all know that God created all he created by hiw word. " Let there be " see the book of Genesis 1- 31.
The word in that verse refers to Jesus

John1:14
And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the önly begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:10-12
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.Which was born,nor of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man but of God"

dolphinheart you asked me about the verse " I and my father are one" you asked if that statement mean Jesus is thesame as father?

You also asked to know what is mean by the statement " My father is greater than me"

i will answer these two questions according to the verses above that prove Jesus to be word of God. The word is just part of man that cannot be seperated from man.Jesus is part or portion of God that cannot be seperated from him

For the both questions let use this analogy to explain it.
Let say you got ocean's water from ocean in a bottle and travel to another state. If someone ask you which water is this what will you say? You have no option than to call it by it source because that is what it is. You can't say because it is in bottle is no longer sea's/ocean's water.Even if you did not say it and it tasted by someone who knows the taste of ocean ,he would tell you it source. But which one is greater, the small quantity of water that is in bottle or the main ocean from which the samll is obtained ? The main Ocean is the greater becouse its plenty, its deep, it has living creatures in it, it move with strenght and wave, it has power, it width is large etc. Hope you understand what am try to explain.

I said soul cannot die and you aske me about the verse of Bible that says " The soul that is sinnig shall die"

that Bible verse is talking about second death with mean everlasting torment in hell

for me to tell you where it written that soul is immortal or that the soul leave the body after death" I know that God is immortal and it breath sould be.

Genesis 2:7
" And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul "

Ecclesiates 12:7
" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

The scripture did not tell us much about Angel expecialy how they were created

the Bible is word of God but there is much different between Jesus and Bible which i believe you know.

I hope i have addressed your questions and that of Teekrayne and others?

Teekrayne:
............ Well, we are all learning.... I don't mean to denigrate any religion here. The choice is yours. You can choose to serve anything you feel like. I only told you what I know and it was not intended to defame or bring down any religion.....

No wahala sir.


Shalom !!!

Teekrayne:
............ Access them individually to know who is doing it right or wrong? Noted!...... How come Jehovah Witness, Deeper Lifers, Catholic churches do not use musical instruments? Could we say they read a different version of the bible which is supposed to pass one message across to all Christians

Jehovahs witnesses and catholic churches do use musical instruments. Not sure about deeper life, but I'm of the view that they do use musical instruments in their worship.
Note: I did not say the use of those instruments is wrong and the bible did not say its wrong. But I explained that the way, purpose, mode and direction a musical instrument is used in worship determines if it is acceptable or not using the bible as a guide.
Contrary to what they say, most gospel artist collect money for their performance. Do you think it is right to seek financial gain when praising God. 99% will stop singing gospel songs the moment its financial rewards stops , this shows you where exactly their heart is!

Even deeper life as well uses musical instruments.

dolphinheart:


Jehovahs witnesses and catholic churches do use musical instruments. Not sure about deeper life, but I'm of the view that they do use musical instruments in their worship.
Note: I did not say the use of those instruments is wrong and the bible did not say its wrong. But I explained that the way, purpose, mode and direction a musical instrument is used in worship determines if it is acceptable or not using the bible as a guide.
Contrary to what they say, most gospel artist collect money for their performance. Do you think it is right to seek financial gain when praising God. 99% will stop singing gospel songs the moment its financial rewards stops , this shows you where exactly their heart is!

......... Ok!

Ayomivic:


Yes there are many gods but we believed in one true God .
We are going to understand that Jesus is God if we stop limit the capability and power of God.

I want us to know that Jesus is Son of God, he is messanger of God, he is son of man, he is son of David and he is God. If you refers to him as whichever of those titles you are right because that was how he was been refers to in the scripture but it take the spirit of God and the knowledge of the scripture to understand why he was called like that. You can't say because he was called this is not that.

You we agree with me that in Bible, Jesus always refers to himself as son of man. Jesus did/does not want to reveal his identity when on earth that is why he forbids the unclean spirits of exposing him. He also forbids his disciples of revealing all what they saw
while he was still on earth.

In Book of Matthew 16: 13 he aske his disciples that " Whom do men say that i the son of man is? The disciples answered ;some say you are John the baptize, some say Elias and other, Jeremiah or one of the prophet
He then asked them " But whom say you that iam?Simon Peter answered ,thou art the Christ the son of of the living God"
whe he said this Jesus did not dispute his statement but commended his saying "
Blessed art thou Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood not revealed it unto you but my father which is in heaven"
why can't we say Saimon Peter is wrong because Jesus called himself son of man

how was he son of God? Did God has wife? No, but there is reason for that.

On Jesus being God, its not i that called him God but the scripture itself did. Let read what the book of Isaiah says about him


Isaiah 9:6
" for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , THE MIGHTY GOD, the everlasting father , the prince of peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever.The zeal of Lord of host will perform this"

Do you see it? Jesus was calle Mighty God

the Book of John shed more light to why Jesus is God. Let read

John 1-4
In the beginnig was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God
The same was in the beginnig with God.All things were made by him; and without was nothing made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men ;and light shinneth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"

we all know that God created all he created by hiw word. " Let there be " see the book of Genesis 1- 31.
The word in that verse refers to Jesus

John1:14
And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the önly begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:10-12
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.Which was born,nor of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man but of God"

dolphinheart you asked me about the verse " I and my father are one" you asked if that statement mean Jesus is thesame as father?

You also asked to know what is mean by the statement " My father is greater than me"

i will answer these two questions according to the verses above that prove Jesus to be word of God. The word is just part of man that cannot be seperated from man.Jesus is part or portion of God that cannot be seperated from him

For the both questions let use this analogy to explain it.
Let say you got ocean's water from ocean in a bottle and travel to another state. If someone ask you which water is this what will you say? You have no option than to call it by it source because that is what it is. You can't say because it is in bottle is no longer sea's/ocean's water.Even if you did not say it and it tasted by someone who knows the taste of ocean ,he would tell you it source. But which one is greater, the small quantity of water that is in bottle or the main ocean from which the samll is obtained ? The main Ocean is the greater becouse its plenty, its deep, it has living creatures in it, it move with strenght and wave, it has power, it width is large etc. Hope you understand what am try to explain.

I said soul cannot die and you aske me about the verse of Bible that says " The soul that is sinnig shall die"

that Bible verse is talking about second death with mean everlasting torment in hell

for me to tell you where it written that soul is immortal or that the soul leave the body after death" I know that God is immortal and it breath sould be.

Genesis 2:7
" And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul "

Ecclesiates 12:7
" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

The scripture did not tell us much about Angel expecialy how they were created

the Bible is word of God but there is much different between Jesus and Bible which i believe you know.

I hope i have addressed your questions and that of Teekrayne and others?

Good of you to say that there are many gods, this nulifies ur statement that god means a "supreme being" . A god can be a supreme being but there are other gods who are not supreme . Jesus is an example of these for he, the bible and his disciples helped us to understand that there is someone more supreme than jesus, the one true god that jesus calls his father, god and creator.

Adding ur statements that jesus is "God" and that "God" is a "supreme being" is a totaly wrong analogy cus jesus himself has said the true god is the "father" , that the "true god" is the supreme being . And me and you agree that jesus is not the father, since jesus is not the father , then jesus is not the supreme being. Or is jesus the same person as the father?


I'm not limiting the power of God. I'm discussing on what the bible says , I'm not using derived analogy like you have done(which ill point out ).

Of all the names and titles you gave jesus, the only one not found in the bible is "jesus is God".


For obvious reasons, jesus did not want to use the wrong medium to reveal himself, imagine what the devil would have done if jesus had and had accepted the demon give out information about him. It would have been hard to disprove other twisted and false statements.

Another obvious fact is that it will distrupt jesus main activity on earth, and that is "preaching the gospel", look at what happened to jesus and later his disciples when he and they later said jesus is "the son of God".

I am not disputing the fact that jesus is the son of God, Matthew 16: 13 supports my view that jesus is the son of God, angels are also sons of God, likewise there is opportunity for humans to be
Sons of God and brothers to jesus in heaven.


Bro one thing I like is people being truthful and factual. Let's look at the Isaiah 9:6 verse you quoted:
" for unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given and the
government shall be upon his
shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor , THE MIGHTY GOD, the everlasting father , the prince of peace.
Of the increase of his
government and peace there
shall be no end, upon the
throne of David and upon his
kingdom, to order it, and to
establish it with judgement and
with justice from henceforth
even for ever.The zeal of Lord
of host will perform this"

Point 1: the verse did not state that jesus "is" or "was" called any of the names and titles in the verse. It stated emphatically that he "will be" called those names and title, this helps us understand that there was a time jesus did not have such titles.

Point 2: jesus is called "mighty God". Why do you as human remove the word "mighty " and just state "jesus is God".
The supreme one ,the true God jesus said we should worship is the "almighty God". The verse did not say jesus is the "almighty God".
By my definition of the word "god" , jesus is a god, a "mighty god" , but he is not the the supreme or almighty God. The father, his God holds those positions.

As much as Ill like to explain my view on john 1:1-4, it might make the post too long, might have to post it seperately.



NOw let's go to the questions I asked you.:

"(I) and the father are one one
" . Does this statement mean
that Jesus is the father? Are
they the same person ?

You should have answered these question by giving a straight answer, but you did not . Instead you used an analogy to arrive at another derived analogy to surppot ur views.

Ur analogy is wrong in the sense that jesus is a seperate person from the father, jesus is not part of the person called the father. They both have wills , there wills are seperate, even though one suppress his will to the will of the father.
Ur analogy is also wrong in the sense that unlike the water taking out of the ocean still probably having the same composition as the water in the ocean , jesus was said to be made flesh(a different composition) ,to take a slaves form(a different condition).

Point 3 : ur analogy of the ocean defends more a belief that "jesus is part of God" more than "jesus is God".

Point 4: the father is seperate from the jesus not only in power and position , but also in knowledge about certain things.
Point 5 : the ocean has a finite mass at any point in time, removing a bottle reduces that finite mass by the mass of the water in the bottle, is the fathers power reduced when jesus was created?

Can you answer with a yes or no on if jesus is the father?
Point 6: after jesus went back to heaven, he did not merge back with God like a water in the bottle will do if poured back into the sea. For God told jesus , "sit at my right hand" and Stephen saw the person of jesus, seperate, different from the one sitting on the throne.


Bro, you said soul does not die, the bible said the soul that is sinning shall die!
Wherever it is that you claim the souls goes afterward, watever condition it is , wateva the word death or die means,wateva definition you give it , whenever it dies , whichever ways its dies, the bible goes contrary to ur initial statement that the soul does not die!. It states the "soul that sins dies!" stop analyzing simple biblical statements .

Genesis 2:7
" And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul "

Can you see that that verse did not state that adam was "giving a soul" or that adam "has a soul" .it stated emphatically that adam "became a living soul"

Ecclesiates 12:7
" Then shall the dust return to
the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Did that verse Tell us anything about the soul?
Is "spirit same as soul?

Bro, the questions still stands : Pls show where it is said that
the soul is immortal or that
adam was giving a soul or that
the soul leaves the body at
death?

Or do those statements come from derived analogy too?


You said jesus is the pure word of God, that he was created by word. That is why i ask, the other spirit creatures in heaven, is it not by word that they are created too? Can be thus say that by virtue of their mode of creation , they are word of god too?

The bible is "word of God, jesus is "word of God" right!

Why is this so?

dolphinheart:



Good of you to say that there are many gods, this nulifies ur statement that god means a "supreme being" . A god can be a supreme being but there are other gods who are not supreme . Jesus is an example of these for he, the bible and his disciples helped us to understand that there is someone more supreme than jesus, the one true god that jesus calls his father, god and creator.

Adding ur statements that jesus is "God" and that "God" is a "supreme being" is a totaly wrong analogy cus jesus himself has said the true god is the "father" , that the "true god" is the supreme being . And me and you agree that jesus is not the father, since jesus is not the father , then jesus is not the supreme being. Or is jesus the same person as the father?


I'm not limiting the power of God. I'm discussing on what the bible says , I'm not using derived analogy like you have done(which ill point out ).

Of all the names and titles you gave jesus, the only one not found in the bible is "jesus is God".


For obvious reasons, jesus did not want to use the wrong medium to reveal himself, imagine what the devil would have done if jesus had and had accepted the demon give out information about him. It would have been hard to disprove other twisted and false statements.

Another obvious fact is that it will distrupt jesus main activity on earth, and that is "preaching the gospel", look at what happened to jesus and later his disciples when he and they later said jesus is "the son of God".

I am not disputing the fact that jesus is the son of God, Matthew 16: 13 supports my view that jesus is the son of God, angels are also sons of God, likewise there is opportunity for humans to be
Sons of God and brothers to jesus in heaven.


Bro one thing I like is people being truthful and factual. Let's look at the Isaiah 9:6 verse you quoted:
" for unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given and the
government shall be upon his
shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor , THE MIGHTY GOD, the everlasting father , the prince of peace.
Of the increase of his
government and peace there
shall be no end, upon the
throne of David and upon his
kingdom, to order it, and to
establish it with judgement and
with justice from henceforth
even for ever.The zeal of Lord
of host will perform this"

Point 1: the verse did not state that jesus "is" or "was" called any of the names and titles in the verse. It stated emphatically that he "will be" called those names and title, this helps us understand that there was a time jesus did not have such titles.

Point 2: jesus is called "mighty God". Why do you as human remove the word "mighty " and just state "jesus is God".
The supreme one ,the true God jesus said we should worship is the "almighty God". The verse did not say jesus is the "almighty God".
By my definition of the word "god" , jesus is a god, a "mighty god" , but he is not the the supreme or almighty God. The father, his God holds those positions.

As much as Ill like to explain my view on john 1:1-4, it might make the post too long, might have to post it seperately.



NOw let's go to the questions I asked you.:

"(I) and the father are one one
" . Does this statement mean
that Jesus is the father? Are
they the same person ?

You should have answered these question by giving a straight answer, but you did not . Instead you used an analogy to arrive at another derived analogy to surppot ur views.

Ur analogy is wrong in the sense that jesus is a seperate person from the father, jesus is not part of the person called the father. They both have wills , there wills are seperate, even though one suppress his will to the will of the father.
Ur analogy is also wrong in the sense that unlike the water taking out of the ocean still probably having the same composition as the water in the ocean , jesus was said to be made flesh(a different composition) ,to take a slaves form(a different condition).

Point 3 : ur analogy of the ocean defends more a belief that "jesus is part of God" more than "jesus is God".

Point 4: the father is seperate from the jesus not only in power and position , but also in knowledge about certain things.
Point 5 : the ocean has a finite mass at any point in time, removing a bottle reduces that finite mass by the mass of the water in the bottle, is the fathers power reduced when jesus was created?

Can you answer with a yes or no on if jesus is the father?
Point 6: after jesus went back to heaven, he did not merge back with God like a water in the bottle will do if poured back into the sea. For God told jesus , "sit at my right hand" and Stephen saw the person of jesus, seperate, different from the one sitting on the throne.


Bro, you said soul does not die, the bible said the soul that is sinning shall die!
Wherever it is that you claim the souls goes afterward, watever condition it is , wateva the word death or die means,wateva definition you give it , whenever it dies , whichever ways its dies, the bible goes contrary to ur initial statement that the soul does not die!. It states the "soul that sins dies!" stop analyzing simple biblical statements .

Genesis 2:7
" And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul "

Can you see that that verse did not state that adam was "giving a soul" or that adam "has a soul" .it stated emphatically that adam "became a living soul"

Ecclesiates 12:7
" Then shall the dust return to
the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Did that verse Tell us anything about the soul?
Is "spirit same as soul?

Bro, the questions still stands : Pls show where it is said that
the soul is immortal or that
adam was giving a soul or that
the soul leaves the body at
death?

Or do those statements come from derived analogy too?


You said jesus is the pure word of God, that he was created by word. That is why i ask, the other spirit creatures in heaven, is it not by word that they are created too? Can be thus say that by virtue of their mode of creation , they are word of god too?

The bible is "word of God, jesus is "word of God" right!

Why is this so?

It seems we were in agreement now since you have believed that Jesus is god .Only thing i see you were disputed about in your last post was that, God the father is greater than God the son. I wasn't disputed that, we all know the father is greater than Jesus. I said it before.
Jesus said it. He creats Jesus, He sent Jesus on a mission on earth, He has authority over Jesus. All christians believed in one Almighty God who created every thing include Jesus but that does not say Jesus is not God. I have not told you that God the father leaves his throne in heaven and came down to Earth. And I have shown to you in scripture which we all believed, both the Old Testament ( isaiah 9:6) and New Testament ( John 1:14) where Jesus called God and how he was God. If we say Jesus is not God then there is contradiction in scripture and if you say Jesus is not God then it mean Bible tells lie as some non-christians believed. If we believe like them, then we are ignorant of scripture and the Holy Spirit is not in us because that is what revealed him (Jesus) and the truth to us.

I am still waiting as you promised to read your explanation and understanding of the John 1:14 because without that you have not refuted anything .0

malvisguy212:
Jesus has two nature, he is fully God and Fully man. Its was God himself who possessed the body of Jesus, God did not override his freewill. Christ is a man, but this man was born without the consort of a woman, even the quran aknowleged satan touch ALL human from birth with the EXCEPTION of Jesus. So the points is, since christ the man is sinless, God dwell in his flesh.

chei !see a confuse soul.

Ayomivic:


It seems we were in agreement now since you have believed that Jesus is god .Only thing i see you were disputed about in your last post was that, God the father is greater than God the son. I wasn't disputed that, we all know the father is greater than Jesus. I said it before.
Jesus said it. He creats Jesus, He sent Jesus on a mission on earth, He has authority over Jesus. All christians believed in one Almighty God who created every thing include Jesus but that does not say Jesus is not God. I have not told you that God the father leaves his throne in heaven and came down to Earth. And I have shown to you in scripture which we all believed, both the Old Testament ( isaiah 9:6) and New Testament ( John 1:14) where Jesus called God and how he was God. If we say Jesus is not God then there is contradiction in scripture and if you say Jesus is not God then it mean Bible tells lie as some non-christians believed. If we believe like them, then we are ignorant of scripture and the Holy Spirit is not in us because that is what revealed him (Jesus) and the truth to us.

I am still waiting as you promised to read your explanation and understanding of the John 1:14 because without that you have not refuted anything .0

I do not like it when you try to ascribe to me statements that I did not make, I never said or agreed that "jesus is God". You would have known more about what I'm saying if you had attempted to answer my questions.

There are three issues we are discussing which I will number and reply on.

1. Who or what God/ GOD /god is .
2. Who jesus is
3 if the soul is immortal or not.


On number 1:

You made this statement, "God is a supreme being. The Almighty Creator."

I told you this was wrong as there are many Gods , but not all are supreme, almighty or creator. By the fact that there are many Gods, the question is now, why are there many Gods and why are they called Gods. The answer is simple , a God is anything you give veneration to and you worship. A stone can be a God if it is worshiped.
Using the bible as a guide , we can now know and decide which of these Gods deserve our worship and why. These is where the issue of creator, true God and supreme being comes in .

** On number 2
You made the statement "God is a supreme being. The
Almighty Creator." and these "jesus is God " earlier.

By these two statements above one can say or assume that "jesus is a supreme being , the almighty God". But you later rubished this statements with these other statements of urs: "jesus is created", the father has authority over jesus"

First, Most christians who believe in trinity will not support these statement of urs. If jesus is thus lesser than the father, it means jesus is not a supreme being, he is not "God", but rather "a God", going by my definition of God.
If jesus is created , that means he is not the creator , and since you say "God " is creator ,it means jesus is not "God".

You earlier gave an analogy of the ocean and water taken into a bottle out of the ocean. With these analogy, you stated that the water in the bottle was taken out of the ocean and have the same composition with the ocean. These goes contrary to the statement that "jesus was created ", cus if we go by ur analogy, jesus is part of God composition and taken out of God.

Where in the bible is these statement "God the son"?

Again you remove a word in Isaiah 9:6 to try and prove "jesus is God". That verse explains jesus will be called "mighty God". Why do you always remove the word "mighty there" to give a different meaning.
Is jesus the true God?

To talk about the book of john, you will first have to answer my previous questions which will be stated and restated in number 3 .

There is no contradiction in the bible to say "jesus is not God". In fact it makes other issues such as "who the lamb is" why "we can be brothers with jesus and not with God", why "jesus could die", why God could know something and jesus could not", why " jesus was later giving authority " better and clearer.

On number 3.

You say the soul does not die. I told you this is wrong that the bible says souls that is sinning shall die. It does not matter form, location or circumstances of death. The soul can die .

To affirm my views I asked the following question and other related questions .

(a)Is "spirit same as soul?

Pls show where it is said that (b)the soul is immortal
(c)that adam was giving a soul
(d) that the soul leaves the body at death? And where it goes?.

You said Jesus is the pure
word of God, that he was
created by word. That is why I ask,
(e)the other spirit creatures
in heaven, is it not by word
that they are created too? Can
We thus say that by virtue of
their mode of creation , they
are word of god too?

(f)The bible is "word of God,
Jesus is "word of God" right!
Why is this so?

When you answer these questions, we can then be in a right frame to go to john 1:14

dolphinheart:




I do not like it when you try to ascribe to me statements that I did not make, I never said or agreed that "jesus is God". You would have known more about what I'm saying if you had attempted to answer my questions.

There are three issues we are discussing which I will number and reply on.

1. Who or what God/ GOD /god is .
2. Who jesus is
3 if the soul is immortal or not.


On number 1:

You made this statement, "God is a supreme being. The Almighty Creator."

I told you this was wrong as there are many Gods , but not all are supreme, almighty or creator. By the fact that there are many Gods, the question is now, why are there many Gods and why are they called Gods. The answer is simple , a God is anything you give veneration to and you worship. A stone can be a God if it is worshiped.
Using the bible as a guide , we can now know and decide which of these Gods deserve our worship and why. These is where the issue of creator, true God and supreme being comes in .

** On number 2
You made the statement "God is a supreme being. The
Almighty Creator." and these "jesus is God " earlier.

By these two statements above one can say or assume that "jesus is a supreme being , the almighty God". But you later rubished this statements with these other statements of urs: "jesus is created", the father has authority over jesus"

First, Most christians who believe in trinity will not support these statement of urs. If jesus is thus lesser than the father, it means jesus is not a supreme being, he is not "God", but rather "a God", going by my definition of God.
If jesus is created , that means he is not the creator , and since you say "God " is creator ,it means jesus is not "God".

You earlier gave an analogy of the ocean and water taken into a bottle out of the ocean. With these analogy, you stated that the water in the bottle was taken out of the ocean and have the same composition with the ocean. These goes contrary to the statement that "jesus was created ", cus if we go by ur analogy, jesus is part of God composition and taken out of God.

Where in the bible is these statement "God the son"?

Again you remove a word in Isaiah 9:6 to try and prove "jesus is God". That verse explains jesus will be called "mighty God". Why do you always remove the word "mighty there" to give a different meaning.
Is jesus the true God?

To talk about the book of john, you will first have to answer my previous questions which will be stated and restated in number 3 .

There is no contradiction in the bible to say "jesus is not God". In fact it makes other issues such as "who the lamb is" why "we can be brothers with jesus and not with God", why "jesus could die", why God could know something and jesus could not", why " jesus was later giving authority " better and clearer.

On number 3.

You say the soul does not die. I told you this is wrong that the bible says souls that is sinning shall die. It does not matter form, location or circumstances of death. The soul can die .

To affirm my views I asked the following question and other related questions .

(a)Is "spirit same as soul?

Pls show where it is said that (b)the soul is immortal
(c)that adam was giving a soul
(d) that the soul leaves the body at death? And where it goes?.

You said Jesus is the pure
word of God, that he was
created by word. That is why I ask,
(e)the other spirit creatures
in heaven, is it not by word
that they are created too? Can
We thus say that by virtue of
their mode of creation , they
are word of god too?

(f)The bible is "word of God,
Jesus is "word of God" right!
Why is this so?

When you answer these questions, we can then be in a right frame to go to john 1:14

i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

Ayomivic:


i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

I will reply you , answer with the scriptures you quoted and add mine.

First, I did not twist ur words, if I did, I bet you would have stated where I did it, I qouted you word for word and explained to you where one contradicts the other.

You removed the word "mighty" when using that verse to state that "jesus is God" . That verse says that jesus will be Called "mighty God".
I did look at the word "God" there , that's why I've been saying that "jesus is a God " which is different from ur own statement that "jesus is God"

You urself stated severally that jesus was created. The supreme God or any part of him is not created.

Now let Me go to the verses you said I should explain


(1 )Matthew 1:23: :
New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and
give birth to a son, and they
will call him Immanuel" (which
means "God with us".

As we both know, it is not mentioned that jesus was called by that name by his parents and those who knew him.
"Immanuel" was first mentioned by Isaiah in which I quote below:

Isaiah 7:14
New Living Translation
All right then, the Lord himself
will give you the sign. Look!
The virgin(actual word is young woman, maiden) will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

NET Bible
For this reason the sovereign
master himself will give you a
confirming sign. Look, this
young woman is about to
conceive and will give birth to
a son. You, young woman, will
name him Immanuel.

Circumstances and conditions sorrounding Isaiahs prophecy at that time did really show that there was an "immanuel " during that period. Cus the prophecy was initially fufilled during that period. (read chapter 7 and 8 of Isaiah )
Now if we literarily take it that God(the supreme being) changed form and came cus a prophecy says that that person will be called "immanuel " then we you should be ready to accept the fact that jesus was born twice on earth. If these is not accepted by you, then you can accept the other explanation of the word inmanuel.

The word "immanuel" can be taking as a sign that God is with mankind. The bearer can take it as a title name. But it does not mean that God literarily came as jesus.

This identity of Jesus Christ as
Immanuel did not mean he was
the incarnation of God. It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” even “Jehovah,” in Hebrew names. Even today Immanuel is the proper name of many men, none of whom are incarnations of God.
All the names giving to jesus apart from "jesus( in wish Mary was directly told ) were all
prophetic title-names by which
Messiah would be identified.
Jesus lived up to the meaning of these names in every respect, and that is the sense in which they were prophetically given, to show his qualities and the good offices he would perform toward all those accepting him as Messiah.
So also with his title Immanuel. He measured up to
and fulfilled its meaning.
Worshipers of Jehovah have
always desired God to be with
them, on their side, backing them up in their undertakings, and often he reassures them that he is, sometimes giving them visible signs to this effect.
Ge 28:10-20;
Ex 3:12;
Jos 1:5, 9;
Jos 5:13–6:2;
Ps 46:5-7; Jer 1:19

With the coming of his
beloved Son to earth as the
promised Messianic “seed” ( Ge 3:15) and rightful heir to the throne of David, God was furnishing his greatest sign that he had not forsaken mankind or his Kingdom covenant. The title-
name Immanuel, therefore, was
particularly appropriate to Christ, for his presence was indeed a sign from heaven. And with this foremost representative of God among mankind, Matthew under inspiration could truly say, “With Us Is God.
So I have explained why jesus is called inmanuel.


(2 )Isaiah 43:10-13:
NIV
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can
reverse it?”

ASV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith
Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye
may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God
formed, neither shall there be
after me.
11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and
besides me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and I have
saved, and I have showed;
and there was no strange god
among you: therefore ye are
my witnesses, saith Jehovah,
and I am God.
13 Yea, since the day was I
am he; and there is none that
can deliver out of my hand: I
will work, and who can hinder
it?

( for my explanation , ill use the name of the God that was talking there)

At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah?
Again, the context answers,
No! None of the idolatrous
Gentile nations formed a god
before Jehovah, because no
one existed before Jehovah.
Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god.
(Ps. 82:1, 6; A psalm of Asaph.
God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

So jesus is not jehovah or a part of him, jesus is "a God" Jesus is not "God".

Now to the issue of "savior".
The bible does not contradict itself . Instead we use the scripture to explain scripture.

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?
Not at all. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks
of “God our Savior,” and then
of both “God the Father and
Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Titus 1:3, 4 :
NIV
and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the
preaching entrusted to me by
the command of God our
Savior,
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

So, both persons are saviors.
Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Jude 25 :
New International Version
to the only God our Savior be
glory, majesty, power and
authority, through Jesus Christ
our Lord, before all ages, now
and forevermore! Amen.

See also Acts 13:23.: “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shiʹa‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at
Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but
that certainly did not make
Othniel God , did it?

reading of Isaiah 43:1-12
shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation,
or deliverance, for Israel; that
salvation did not come from
any of the gods of the
surrounding nations.

Ill stop here , will continue in my next post ( not to make my post too long )

dolphinheart:




I will reply you , answer with the scriptures you quoted and add mine.

First, I did not twist ur words, if I did, I bet you would have stated where I did it, I qouted you word for word and explained to you where one contradicts the other.

You removed the word "mighty" when using that verse to state that "jesus is God" . That verse says that jesus will be Called "mighty God".
I did look at the word "God" there , that's why I've been saying that "jesus is a God " which is different from ur own statement that "jesus is God"

You urself stated severally that jesus was created. The supreme God or any part of him is not created.

Now let Me go to the verses you said I should explain


(1 )Matthew 1:23: :
New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and
give birth to a son, and they
will call him Immanuel" (which
means "God with us".

As we both know, it is not mentioned that jesus was called by that name by his parents and those who knew him.
"Immanuel" was first mentioned by Isaiah in which I quote below:

Isaiah 7:14
New Living Translation
All right then, the Lord himself
will give you the sign. Look!
The virgin(actual word is young woman, maiden) will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

NET Bible
For this reason the sovereign
master himself will give you a
confirming sign. Look, this
young woman is about to
conceive and will give birth to
a son. You, young woman, will
name him Immanuel.

Circumstances and conditions sorrounding Isaiahs prophecy at that time did really show that there was an "immanuel " during that period. Cus the prophecy was initially fufilled during that period. (read chapter 7 and 8 of Isaiah )
Now if we literarily take it that God(the supreme being) changed form and came cus a prophecy says that that person will be called "immanuel " then we you should be ready to accept the fact that jesus was born twice on earth. If these is not accepted by you, then you can accept the other explanation of the word inmanuel.

The word "immanuel" can be taking as a sign that God is with mankind. The bearer can take it as a title name. But it does not mean that God literarily came as jesus.

This identity of Jesus Christ as
Immanuel did not mean he was
the incarnation of God. It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” even “Jehovah,” in Hebrew names. Even today Immanuel is the proper name of many men, none of whom are incarnations of God.
All the names giving to jesus apart from "jesus( in wish Mary was directly told ) were all
prophetic title-names by which
Messiah would be identified.
Jesus lived up to the meaning of these names in every respect, and that is the sense in which they were prophetically given, to show his qualities and the good offices he would perform toward all those accepting him as Messiah.
So also with his title Immanuel. He measured up to
and fulfilled its meaning.
Worshipers of Jehovah have
always desired God to be with
them, on their side, backing them up in their undertakings, and often he reassures them that he is, sometimes giving them visible signs to this effect.
Ge 28:10-20;
Ex 3:12;
Jos 1:5, 9;
Jos 5:13–6:2;
Ps 46:5-7; Jer 1:19

With the coming of his
beloved Son to earth as the
promised Messianic “seed” ( Ge 3:15) and rightful heir to the throne of David, God was furnishing his greatest sign that he had not forsaken mankind or his Kingdom covenant. The title-
name Immanuel, therefore, was
particularly appropriate to Christ, for his presence was indeed a sign from heaven. And with this foremost representative of God among mankind, Matthew under inspiration could truly say, “With Us Is God.
So I have explained why jesus is called inmanuel.


(2 )Isaiah 43:10-13:
NIV
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can
reverse it?”

ASV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith
Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye
may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God
formed, neither shall there be
after me.
11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and
besides me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and I have
saved, and I have showed;
and there was no strange god
among you: therefore ye are
my witnesses, saith Jehovah,
and I am God.
13 Yea, since the day was I
am he; and there is none that
can deliver out of my hand: I
will work, and who can hinder
it?

( for my explanation , ill use the name of the God that was talking there)

At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah?
Again, the context answers,
No! None of the idolatrous
Gentile nations formed a god
before Jehovah, because no
one existed before Jehovah.
Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god.
(Ps. 82:1, 6; A psalm of Asaph.
God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

So jesus is not jehovah or a part of him, jesus is "a God" Jesus is not "God".

Now to the issue of "savior".
The bible does not contradict itself . Instead we use the scripture to explain scripture.

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?
Not at all. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks
of “God our Savior,” and then
of both “God the Father and
Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Titus 1:3, 4 :
NIV
and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the
preaching entrusted to me by
the command of God our
Savior,
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

So, both persons are saviors.
Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Jude 25 :
New International Version
to the only God our Savior be
glory, majesty, power and
authority, through Jesus Christ
our Lord, before all ages, now
and forevermore! Amen.

See also Acts 13:23.: “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shiʹa‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at
Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but
that certainly did not make
Othniel God , did it?

reading of Isaiah 43:1-12
shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation,
or deliverance, for Israel; that
salvation did not come from
any of the gods of the
surrounding nations.

Ill stop here , will continue in my next post ( not to make my post too long )

Ha ha! You sould'nt have stop there. It seem you have known the truth but you don't want to concede defeat.

Why do you have to jump that short, straightfowrd and simple question No 3(John8:58) and go for question No 6 (Titus 2-13) is that a way of covering the fact? That was how you did to John 1-14 ,you said to avoid long post, until now you have'nt answer it.

I want to see how you will answer those remaining questions. Let me list them for you.

1. John 1-14
2. John 8:58
3. Philipians 2:5-7
4. 1 Timothy 3:16
5. Hebrews 1:8-9
6. 2 John 1:7
9. Revelation 1:8

pls, if you can answer all those verses, bro! I thing is better you come openly that you concur.No big deal in saying that.

Ayomivic:


Ha ha! You sould'nt have stop there. It seem you have known the truth but you don't want to concede defeat.

Why do you have to jump that short, straightfowrd and simple question No 3(John8:58) and go for question No 6 (Titus 2-13) is that a way of covering the fact? That was how you did to John 1-14 ,you said to avoid long post, until now you have'nt answer it.

I want to see how you will answer those remaining questions. Let me list them for you.

1. John 1-14
2. John 8:58
3. Philipians 2:5-7
4. 1 Timothy 3:16
5. Hebrews 1:8-9
6. 2 John 1:7
9. Revelation 1:8

pls, if you can answer all those verses, bro! I thing is better you come openly that you concur.No big deal in saying that.

Bro , I did not jump o, I said ill answer ur questions one by one . I've answered number one and two and my next post will start from number 3.

I have not jumped to question 6 , if you read my post well, you will see that my answers on question 2 is were I stopped on that , that you see me quoting titus does not mean I've jumped. The titus quote is still part of my answer to question 2.
I'm sorry for not posting for a while, but I will continue shortly, starting from question 3 . That you did not say anything on my answers on question 1 and 2 shows me you are in agreement with my reply .