toshino4real:
26. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O Allah! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.

27. You make the night to enter into the day, and You make the day to enter into the night (i.e. increase and decrease in the hours of the night and the day during winter and summer), You bring the living out of the dead, and You bring the dead out of the living. And You give wealth and sustenance to whom You will, without limit (measure or account).
This is Qu'ran, 3: 26-27. Read very well

Can you help answer the question that I asked teekrayne?

hi dolphinheart, long time no chat, maybe i should help teekrayne, my views about apostates? please click this thread and read the op very well(please with an unbiased mind). now about those hadiths, personally before i follow any hadith, i make sure that it does not contradict the Qur'an(be it sahih or hasan), because muhammad sayings can never contradict the Qur'an, if an hadith contradict the Qur'an then i am 100% sure that muhammad never said that. the three hadiths you cited talking about killing apostates contradicts the Qur'an, because i am yet to see a verse of the Qur'an that sentence apostates to death. please click these verses of the Qur'an Q5:54-55, Q3:90, if you have seen a verse that sentenced apostates to death, pls let me know.

lexiconkabir:
hi dolphinheart, long time no chat, maybe i should help teekrayne, my views about apostates? please click this thread and read the op very well(please with an unbiased mind). now about those hadiths, personally before i follow any hadith, i make sure that it does not contradict the Qur'an(be it sahih or hasan), because muhammad sayings can never contradict the Qur'an, if an hadith contradict the Qur'an then i am 100% sure that muhammad never said that. the three hadiths you cited talking about killing apostates contradicts the Qur'an, because i am yet to see a verse of the Qur'an that sentence apostates to death. please click these verses of the Qur'an Q5:54-55, Q3:90, if you have seen a verse that sentenced apostates to death, pls let me know.

Hello Bro, I will admit something, I slightly have a biased opinion , based on my personal experience and experience related to me by my extended family members. But on these issue , I will stick to facts, available proofs and truthful response to my questions by you to draw my conclusions, so for now, I have an open mind for these issue of apostasy.
Pls do not look at my questions in bad light, I'm asking just to find out the truth.

I've read the thread. In summary the thread is saying that the quran never recommended the punishment of death for an apostate .

This brings the first question (1) how should an apostate be treated according to the quran? In other words, what did the quran recommend as treatment for an apostate?. (apostate here is a person who peacefully leave the religion and adopts another, who does not slander or say anything about his former religion)

* this questions is asked cus I have heard that not all the procedures and practices of the religion are found in the quran.(if I'm wrong , pls correct me). So if the quran did not give details about actions to be taken afterwards, the hadiths can be used to determine what is to be done. And that the hadith will only be discarded if it goes contrary to what the quran says. This is why I want to know the actions to be taking as prescribed by the quran on these issue of apostacy( the apostacy referred to above).

After these can the issue of contraction be cleared, cus to me, adding extra action to an action(to be taken by the people) that is not prescribed in the quran is not contradiction , but saying something contrary to instructions/ actions/ judgement in the quran is.

Now let's go back to that thread. I'm going to quote part of the thread below:

Freedom to convert to or from Islam
Article 18 of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights states,
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief,
and freedom, either alone or in
community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

(2) (a)does the kingdom of saudi arabia adhere to this article in totality.?
(b)what will happen to me if I go out on the street of saudi arabia with a bible and a cross and seen by the authorities ?
(c) will I be allowed to start a church in saudi arabia so that I can have a medium to talk about my religion?
(d) what will happen to me if I try (c) above.
(e) what is the present law on apostacy in saudi arabia.

Back to the question I asked teekrayne, the questions where :

1. What is ur view on apostacy
2. Do you support these hadiths below as true?

The second question asked if you support the hadith quoted as true, with ur explanation, which of the following stands should I assume.
(A) that the hadiths quoted contain false stories as the prophet and others did not say what is stated in those hadiths.
(B) that the hadiths mis- understood the words of the prophet and thus did not get what the prophet and others was saying correctly .
(C) that the prophet and others did say the words as recorded in the hadiths quoted.
* note, i do not ascribe to the notion that some books are weak, aunthentic or fabricated . In reality, its either a story/statement is false or true or unknown. So since the hadiths attributed a statement to someone, its either the writer of the hadith lied or told the truth. Which of these two do you support?.

Question (3) :it is evident that there has been killings due to appstacy . This killings where done without giving the apostate time to repent . What do you think will happen to such one in the future, will he still be purnished despite not having an opportunity to repent while he was still alive ?

dolphinheart:


No problem Bro.

How is these matter a mystery is it that the bible did not tell us about who jesus is?.
Bro, you can ask as many questions as ull like to ask, ill try my best to answer you using the scriptures as guide.

Trustman is wrong , very very wrong .



John 1:2 says : this one was in the biggining "with" God. It did not say "in " God .

John 6: 62 says: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was
before?

Now did jesus ascend to where he was before? Yes
Did he exist as a separate person when he ascended to where he was before ? Yes

The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand, till I
make thine enemies thy
footstool? - Matt 22:44.

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and
Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”- acts 7: 55,56.

If jesus was part of God and not a separate person, who is God talking to here then : “Let us make man in our image,
according to our likeness, - gen 1:26 .

Back to the matter of "wisdom". Who or what do you think this wisdom is ? How do you explain ur view with what is written in proverbs 8 22-31 .?




By virtue of Jesus being the
sole direct creation of his
Father, the firstborn Son
Jesus was unique, different
from all others of God’s sons,
all of whom were created or
begotten by God through that
firstborn Son. So “the Word”
was Gods “only- begotten
Son” .



Most of those prophets got their message from jesus and the angels. Read rev 1:1



Lets use the bible to determine our beliefs. Let us find out from the bible the truth about jesus . There are other bible verses I quoted which you did not respond on.

My Bishop said the issue of trinity is mystery,but i thought i know who Jesus is when i read the book of John that says " In the begginnig there is word and the word was with God and the word was God" i belived this word to be the word of God that had been in existence as long as the God had been in existence. I don't belive the word in that verse to be title. God has great power to do anything he wished. It was the God word that was made flesh and the God's word is God. That is my stand but you are trying to prove me wrong by saying Jesus is a God, but not God almighty you believe Jesus was exist with God as a separate entity before he came down to earth the reason we are not in agreement on this issue made it mystery becouse i do not agree with you. It remaine mystery until you and i come to agreement and i doubt we cannot
i will like to ask you these

1 human being was created by dust the angel by fire, how was Jesus created, who created Jesus, when was he created when he was in spirit form?

2 The Bible made us to know that Jesus is creator the book of John said "all things was made by him.And Without him there was not anything made that was made"? How can you explaine this if Jesus is separate entity, who made the statement let there be in the creation as we read in the Book of Genesis 1-31 ? How was things made by Jesus?

On your question, i belived God was speaking with Angels when he says let make man in our image according to our likeness

the wisdom in proverb 8:22-31 is nothing but wisdom and understanding , the writter use idiom to explaine wisdon and understanding. He uses figurative expresion(personification) to explaine wisdom and understanting. Remember you can't read it out of contents. The writter gave the atributes of man to non living thing (wisdom and understanding) in verse 22-31 he was trying to explaine that God possessed wisdom and by it he created all he created.

I don't think there is a need to argue about Jesus is God. If you want to know much more about God, ask God to reveal himself to you. And I'm sure that if God reveal himself to you, you will know the relationship between God and Jesus.
Shalom!!!

Teekrayne:
The write up alone bores me!!! The Qur'an is accurately accurate, perfectly perfect and completely complete !!!... However, if the bible was not edited, why do we have different versions King James version is a good example of one of the versions, new international version is another.... The contradictions in the bible is visible to the blind and audible to the deaf!! You guys claim to have holy trinity right?? (Father, Son and Holy spirit))..... But Deut 6 vs 4 says something else... Let me quote....... "The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone"..... Another one is Mark 12 vs 29.... "“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one"..... How can you reconcile that..... Another one is Matt 28 vs 19 and I quote.... "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT"..... How can you defend this as well?........

.Sweethear d thing is unless u settle down to read d Scriptures which u certainly can't,u wnt understand d beauty of d Trinity nd ofcourse u wnt understand all it entails.I honestly pray d Holyspirit speaks to ur hrt

MariaFernenda:
.Sweethear d thing is unless u settle down to read d Scriptures which u certainly can't,u wnt understand d beauty of d Trinity nd ofcourse u wnt understand all it entails......

darling, we surely understand, it just doesnt make sense, the Qur'an has warned muslims about trinity, the hindu trinity, the egyptian trinity, the christianity trinity, greek trinity and so on. the only clear cut verse that joins the father, son and holyghost as one is 1john5:7, but funny enough this verse was an insertion by the church, its never found in any old greek manuscripts that is used in translating the bible into English, this verse was first seen in the 3rd edition of erasmus bible in 1522, if you notice the concept of trinity is mostly practiced by the roman catholics, erasmus was a roman catholic and since there was no verse that explicitly showed the trinity, they had to insert it into the bible(1john5:7), pls research and confirm. Goodmorning!

@dolphinheart, i'm sorry i couldnt answer your question, i had a problem with my phone, and if i'm to answer the questions with the phone i'm using now it will be tedious(its not a smartphone), it has limit to what i can type(1024 words), so pls be patient, insha Allah by next week i would get a new smartphone, then i would answer your questions, i hope you will understand this.

lexiconkabir:
@dolphinheart, i'm sorry i couldnt answer your question, i had a problem with my phone, and if i'm to answer the questions with the phone i'm using now it will be tedious(its not a smartphone), it has limit to what i can type(1024 words), so pls be patient, insha Allah by next week i would get a new smartphone, then i would answer your questions, i hope you will understand this.

Kk , no p

Ayomivic:


My Bishop said the issue of
trinity is mystery,

Bro that a bishop said the above does not mean He is right! The issue is, what does the bible say about jesus and God? The bible should provide answers and not man.
Trinity can be a mystery but the bible has shown such mystery as false and man made, the mystery was created to make it easy for pagans who had such similar arrangements to come into the church. Take a look at the false Gods worshiped before jesus and the apostles and see if its not similar to trinity.

but i thought I know who Jesus is when i read the book of John that says " In
the begginnig there is word and the word was with God and the word was God" i belived this word to be the word of God that had been in existence as long as the God had been in existence. I don't belive the word in that verse to be title.

I had said before, we will handle john 1:1 after we have looked at all sorrounding scriptures about jesus. This will help us get a better understanding on what john really said or is saying there.

God has great power to do enything he wish. It was the
God word that was made flesh
and the God's word is God.

The verse never said "god word" .I do not encourage using derived analogy to come to a conclusion on what the scriptures is saying .

That is my stand but you are trying to prove me wrong by saying Jesus is a God, but not God almighty you believe Jesus was exist with God as a separate entity before he came down to earth the reason we are not in agreement on this issue made it mystery becouse i do not agree with you. It remaine mystery until you and I come to agreement and i doubt
we cannot i will like to ask you these
1 human being was created by
dust the angel by fire, how was
Jesus created, who created
Jesus, when was he created
when he was in spirit form?

To go into these question, we must first know how u learnt that angels are created by fire. Pls tell me where you learnt that .

2 The Bible made us to know that Jesus is creator the book of John said "all things was made by him.And Without him there was anything was not anything made that was made"? How can you explaine this if Jesus is separate entity,

Col 1:15-17 brings about some issues which we will look into later, as going into it now might affect the direction of our discussion. But for us to look into it, ill like to hear ur answer on these question: jesus is now in heaven, is he a seperate entity or a part of the father ?

who made the statement let there be in the creation as we read in the Book of Jesus ? How was thing made by Jesus?

I do not understand what you posted here, pls rephrase .

On your question, i belived God was speaking with Angels when he says let make man in our image according to our likeness

You believe, do you have proof to support ur beliefs

the wisdom in proverb 8:22-31 is nothing but wisdom and understanding , the writter use idiom to explaine wisdon and understanding. He uses
figurative expresion
(personification) to explaine
wisdom and understanting.
Remember you can't read it out
of contents. The writter gave
the atribute of man to non living thing (wisdom and
understanding) in verse 22-31
he was trying to explaine that
God possessed wisdom and by it he created all he created.

The writer used idiom to explain wisdom and Understanding ? Can u give us a summary of these explanation and what the verses of proverb 8:22-31 explained to us.

Pls do not forget to explain if jesus is a separate entity or part of God in heaven now.

dolphinheart:


Hello Bro, I will admit something, I slightly have a biased opinion , based on my personal experience and experience related to me by my extended family members. But on these issue , I will stick to facts, available proofs and truthful response to my questions by you to draw my conclusions, so for now, I have an open mind for these issue of apostasy.
Pls do not look at my questions in bad light, I'm asking just to find out the truth.

I've read the thread. In summary the thread is saying that the quran never recommended the punishment of death for an apostate .

This brings the first question (1) how should an apostate be treated according to the quran? In other words, what did the quran recommend as treatment for an apostate?. (apostate here is a person who peacefully leave the religion and adopts another, who does not slander or say anything about his former religion)

* this questions is asked cus I have heard that not all the procedures and practices of the religion are found in the quran.(if I'm wrong , pls correct me). So if the quran did not give details about actions to be taken afterwards, the hadiths can be used to determine what is to be done. And that the hadith will only be discarded if it goes contrary to what the quran says. This is why I want to know the actions to be taking as prescribed by the quran on these issue of apostacy( the apostacy referred to above).

After these can the issue of contraction be cleared, cus to me, adding extra action to an action(to be taken by the people) that is not prescribed in the quran is not contradiction , but saying something contrary to instructions/ actions/ judgement in the quran is.

Now let's go back to that thread. I'm going to quote part of the thread below:



(2) (a)does the kingdom of saudi arabia adhere to this article in totality.?
(b)what will happen to me if I go out on the street of saudi arabia with a bible and a cross and seen by the authorities ?
(c) will I be allowed to start a church in saudi arabia so that I can have a medium to talk about my religion?
(d) what will happen to me if I try (c) above.
(e) what is the present law on apostacy in saudi arabia.

Back to the question I asked teekrayne, the questions where :

1. What is ur view on apostacy
2. Do you support these hadiths below as true?

The second question asked if you support the hadith quoted as true, with ur explanation, which of the following stands should I assume.
(A) that the hadiths quoted contain false stories as the prophet and others did not say what is stated in those hadiths.
(B) that the hadiths mis- understood the words of the prophet and thus did not get what the prophet and others was saying correctly .
(C) that the prophet and others did say the words as recorded in the hadiths quoted.
* note, i do not ascribe to the notion that some books are weak, aunthentic or fabricated . In reality, its either a story/statement is false or true or unknown. So since the hadiths attributed a statement to someone, its either the writer of the hadith lied or told the truth. Which of these two do you support?.

Question (3) :it is evident that there has been killings due to appstacy . This killings where done without giving the apostate time to repent . What do you think will happen to such one in the future, will he still be purnished despite not having an opportunity to repent while he was still alive ?

................. so sorry pls. lost my fone. though I am not fully back. its just for u to know dat my not coming online or responding to ur questions isn't deliberate. takia

lexiconkabir:
darling, we surely understand, it just doesnt make sense, the Qur'an has warned muslims about trinity, the hindu trinity, the egyptian trinity, the christianity trinity, greek trinity and so on. the only clear cut verse that joins the father, son and holyghost as one is 1john5:7, but funny enough this verse was an insertion by the church, its never found in any old greek manuscripts that is used in translating the bible into English, this verse was first seen in the 3rd edition of erasmus bible in 1522, if you notice the concept of trinity is mostly practiced by the roman catholics, erasmus was a roman catholic and since there was no verse that explicitly showed the trinity, they had to insert it into the bible(1john5:7), pls research and confirm. Goodmorning!

.
See my Dear,m a christian nd I sure knw what's therein,it is written nt even in 1 dah who ever believes in christ or even calls himself a christian must believe in d Trinity.wen u read d teachings of Jesus on d kingdom clearly,u knw what's up.There's no point arguing,respect other peoples religion 4 urs to be respected.The Bible sure warns of dis sorts of arguements,xo this very much ends this conversation.Just shut it,u r nt a Christian nd u will very much never understand d Scriptures untill u r filled With d Holyspirit which teacheth all things.shalom

MariaFernenda:
.
See my Dear,m a christian nd I sure knw what's therein,it is written nt even in 1 dah who ever believes in christ or even calls himself a christian must believe in d Trinity.wen u read d teachings of Jesus on d kingdom clearly,u knw what's up.There's no point arguing,respect other peoples religion 4 urs to be respected.The Bible sure warns of dis sorts of arguements,xo this very much ends this conversation.Just shut it,u r nt a Christian nd u will very much never understand d Scriptures untill u r filled With d Holyspirit which teacheth all things.shalom

dont tell me, you are afraid to question your faith, i say it again, 1john5:7 was inserted into the bible at the 15century. mind you, i aint arguing with you, i am telling you the reality.

lexiconkabir:
dont tell me, you are afraid to question your faith, i say it again, 1john5:7 was inserted into the bible at the 15century. mind you, i aint arguing with you, i am telling you the reality.

Hello, have you been able to solve the phone issue now?

dolphinheart:


Hello, have you been able to solve the phone issue now?

hi, no i havent, it should be evident from how unarranged my typing is(or is it not?) well, very soon(maybe nextweek, money palava ) i will get the phone. dont worry, when i get it, i would respond.