LordAdam:


All you've just proved is that the Isoko people are good neighbors.

And here is a definition of "ethnic" according to Merriam Webster's dictionary - http://i.word.com/idictionary/ethnic[1]



So when you say Isoko is ethnically different from Urhobo but culturally and linguistically the same, I begin to question your educational standing.

If you accept that the Isokos are ethnically different from the Urhobos, then by the definition, you agree to my position. This my good friend is SACROSANT.

#Stillundefeated.

Now scamper away, you've lost this one.

Again, I've got nothing against the Urhobos. But I will not tolerate your flagrant disregard of history and friendly ties between both people.

LordAdam:


Agreed. The blacks in general are still underlings of the white man. So in Asa's voice, "the you-know-who are still jail occupants."

I have a duty to my descendants to preserve the heritage left to me by my ancestors. That heritage is the identity of the Isoko people that will not be sacrificed for any reason.

LordAdam:


Read the Isoko part of this webpage - http://ihuanedo.ning.com/m/group/discussion?id=2971192%3ATopic%3A130200

Point to note: "The only Isoko clan that migrated from Urhoboland is the Olomoro clan which descended from Olomu clan in Ughelli South LGA about 1750-1800 AD."

In fact, more Urhobo people descended from Isoko people than Isoko people from Urhobo people. It is safe to say that Urhobo is more Isokoid than Isoko is Urhoboid.

So Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. The Isoko people are very peaceful and never waged war within themselves in an almost 1000 year period. They extended this peaceful co-existence to their Urhobo and Ukwani neighbors. And even welcomed migrants from Igbos in present DAY Anambra. The dialect of Isoko spoken in Igbide bear more similarity to traditional Isoko than Igbo. What does that tell you?

The Isoko ancestors shared lands, culture, and even language with their neighbors. The Urhobo could not so with their Itsekiri neighbors and like yourself look to clump the Isokos under the Urhobo tag.

The Bakassi Peninsula is in current day Cameroon. In time past, that region fell under Nigeria, now do we call those currently living there as Nigerians or those from Cameroon?

Bender state was under the defunct western region, should the Bini and Urhobo people be called western Nigerians under the odua Republic, or Niger Deltans?

The Eastern Urhobo Native Authority is a name tagged on a region, not the prevailing identity of the people under the tag. Accordingly, the Richards constitution called for both primary groups, the Isoko and Urhobo to send a candidate each to the defunct regional western assembly.

You fail to see why Isoko was not lumped into Urhoboland. It is because we are distinct from the Urhobos.

It is an affirmative fact that Isoko is not a branch of Urhobo. The Ancestors of 94% of Isoko clans came to present day Isoko land direct from the old Bini empire. 4% came from other regions, Anambra, Bayless, and maybe Port Harcourt. The remaining 2% came from Urhoboland. How then can any sane person say Isoko people are Urhobo people? We are Edoid not Urhoboid.

Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. For heaven's sake, it is a language with its own dialects.

Putting ego aside, you let emotion cloud your reasoning. It is why you are no match for my intelligent prowess.

LordAdam:


Yes.

airsaylongcon:


Let's be real here. Prior to Awolowo's excision of Isoko from Urhobo, both were one indistinguishable, indisoluble entity. All this assertion today is purely political. Its like when a kid tastes freedom. It is very exhilarating. Before Awo's shenanigans did d both not live intertwined as a unit?

As for pledging allegiance to the Oba, ALL Urhobo and Isoko Kings pledge their allegiance to him. They get their crowns from/through him

clefstone:
northerners and westerners consider Urhobos as Igbos, does that make them igbos?

fratermathy:


I have lost nothing. In fact, I am yet to begin.

Firstly, ethnically as used in my sentence is connotatively used to delineate Nigerian Ethnic Nationalities who, by virtue of politics, deem themselves as different from their neighbours. Ethnicity and Ethnic Nationality are two different semantic pairs. In my usage, I refer to ethnic nationality and not ethnic groupings. Isoko belong to the Urhobo ethnic grouping whereas Isoko is a different ethnic nationality. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then it wouldn't be a surprise why you cannot understand that Isoko is linguistically and culturally the same with Urhobo. This is sacrosanct!

Do not immerse yourself into a delusion of grandeur that you are undefeated! Our argument has just begun! Refer to these links on Isoko being a dialect of Urhobo:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urhobo-Isoko
2. https://books.google.com.ng/books?isbn=978077288X
3. https://books.google.com.ng/books?isbn=9780677690
There are a myriad of scholarly articles on this issue that I would gladly use to flog you hands down as long as this matter is concerned! You cannot win this argument, I tell you! I have presented to you a list of items that make Isoko a cultural unit of Urhobo, kindly present me with a list that says otherwise, assuming you are intellectually bouyant enough to do so.

According to the language family tree classification by Ethnologue, Okpe, Urhobo and Uvwie , alongside Ebuka and Isoko, make up the five Southwestern Edoid languages of the Benue-Congo group.

Quoting Johnstone (1993), Ethnologue puts the population of Urhobo people at 546,000, Okpe 25,400 (2000) and Uvwie 19,800 (2000). These three languages have geographically neighbouring languages :Izon and Itsekiri to the west and south,Ukwuani and Isoko to the east and Edo to the north. Thus, Isoko and Urhobo are similar languages that belong to the same linguistic family.

Okpe (ISO 639 – 3:oke), Urhobo (ISO 639 – 3:urh) and Uvwie (ISO 639 – 3:evh) are three diverse languages spoken in an area belonging to one and the same ethnic group called the Urhobo people of Delta State in southern Nigeria, West Africa

wytecat:
This is the first time I'm hearing about this your "first ogiso being oba godo" and it seems recently made up. What links do you have to corroborate your claim that this isn't new?

The Edoid have already heard about obalufe, obatala, obalofin among others from Yoruba if they pay attention to the burrowed orisa they worship. Why then do they have just the "oba godo"(newly made up) while Yoruba have many and there is only one oba (crowned by Yoruba)in all the the so called edoid land while Yoruba have obas all over Yoruba land?

Anyway you look at it, 'oba' is exclusively Yoruba! Burrowed words are scantily used by the borrowers!

The salutions or greetings of the Edo people have not excluded their Oba. Thus for "Good morning" Edo man or woman would say Oba Owie(meaning King of the Morning) "For good afternoon" they would say Oba Avan (King of the afternoon) and for "good evening" they would say Oba ota (meaning king of the Evening). The origin of the word Oba has been a subject of controversy.

The early kings in Benin were known as Ogisos. The succcesors were the Obas which began with Oba Eweka[/b]1. Some writers claim that the word Oba is a yoruba word which means King. [b]Others insist that the word must have been derived from the Benin word O baa meaning "it is difficult hard or dificult or probably from an abbreviation of the original name of the first Ogiso Obagodo(Oba godo: Oba-King godo. high; thus High king). The long history of Edo people is reflected in their uniquely rich cultural heritage.

LordAdam:


Mate, let me break it to you: You've lost. I'm only replying you to make the loss easy on you. Although, I'm not sure if your arrogance will allow you to see beyond your nose.

Please, in an argument, when you use a word connotatively and you want the opposition to accept your connotative use, then be explicit from the start.

Now you must understand my take. I cannot accept the opinion of a rogue ethnic extremist positing that Isoko belongs to the Urhobo ethnic grouping. As far as I know you are no historian, nor do you have sources to prove your statement.

Now let me take your hand and guide you through the study of ethnicity. Classification is necessary to organize a study. Clearly, the Urhobo people and Isoko people have various similarities. It follows then that they should be grouped together in cross-ethnic studies. It is no different from clumping the French and the Spanish as West European as different from the Hungarians and Czechs grouped together as East Europeans.

Now, when both groups are studied together, they adopt a portmanteau word stringed from the appellation of both groups, the Urhobo-Isoko or Sobo.

It is why all literature on the subject refer to Urhobo-Isoko and not Isoko as a part of the Urhobo ethnic group. That is the acceptable form, and I will be damned to take your non-intellectual stand over that of the experts.

Do not make a mockery of yourself, extract a quote from a reputable historian that authoritatively say that the Isoko people are Urhobo people and not distinct.

Rather than provide a littany of links, I will puncture holes into the ones you bring.

1. Wikipedia:



No where in the article was it posited that the Isoko language was spoken by Urhobo people. Nor did it say that the Isoko people are a group of the Urhobo people. Please, use your brain. I'm making it easy for you. In bold, the writeup lists the three languages spoken by the Urhobo people, Okpe, Urhobo, and Uvwie. Please where is Isoko in the list?

2. Link is not correct

3. Book says nothing that points that the Isoko people are one and the same with the Urhobo people.

None of your links stand against the only link I have provided. Now bring a reputable scholarly reference to substantiate your fact or stay quiet. If in your next reply to this message, you are unable to do so. I will have proved to everyone that your argument is false.

airsaylongcon:


Let's be real here. Prior to Awolowo's excision of Isoko from Urhobo, both were one indistinguishable, indisoluble entity. All this assertion today is purely political. Its like when a kid tastes freedom. It is very exhilarating. Before Awo's shenanigans did d both not live intertwined as a unit?

As for pledging allegiance to the Oba, ALL Urhobo and Isoko Kings pledge their allegiance to him. They get their crowns from/through him

At some unknown date much of the Urhobo-Isoko country came under the rule of the Oba of Benin. Many of the ivie or "Kings" of Urhobo and Isoko tribes had to seek confirmation of their titles from the Oba and some still express an intention to do so; the Orodje of Orerokpe (Okpe-Urhobo) received ceremonial swords from the Oba as late as the autumn of 1953. In most tribes, however, this practice has long been discontinued, though the Oba still retains some spiritual prestige in the area. The ivie of some other Isoko tribes owed allegiance to the Obi of Aboh.

www.waado.org/Organizations/Uhs/Debates/UrhoboBeninRelations/Omoigui.html

LordAdam:


Mate, let me break it to you: You've lost. I'm only replying you to make the loss easy on you. Although, I'm not sure if your arrogance will allow you to see beyond your nose.

Please, in an argument, when you use a word connotatively and you want the opposition to accept your connotative use, then be explicit from the start.

Now you must understand my take. I cannot accept the opinion of a rogue ethnic extremist positing that Isoko belongs to the Urhobo ethnic grouping. As far as I know you are no historian, nor do you have sources to prove your statement.

Now let me take your hand and guide you through the study of ethnicity. Classification is necessary to organize a study. Clearly, the Urhobo people and Isoko people have various similarities. It follows then that they should be grouped together in cross-ethnic studies. It is no different from clumping the French and the Spanish as West European as different from the Hungarians and Czechs grouped together as East Europeans.

Now, when both groups are studied together, they adopt a portmanteau word stringed from the appellation of both groups, the Urhobo-Isoko or Sobo.

It is why all literature on the subject refer to Urhobo-Isoko and not Isoko as a part of the Urhobo ethnic group. That is the acceptable form, and I will be damned to take your non-intellectual stand over that of the experts.

Do not make a mockery of yourself, extract a quote from a reputable historian that authoritatively say that the Isoko people are Urhobo people and not distinct.

Rather than provide a littany of links, I will puncture holes into the ones you bring.

1. Wikipedia:



No where in the article was it posited that the Isoko language was spoken by Urhobo people. Nor did it say that the Isoko people are a group of the Urhobo people. Please, use your brain. I'm making it easy for you. In bold, the writeup lists the three languages spoken by the Urhobo people, Okpe, Urhobo, and Uvwie. Please where is Isoko in the list?

2. Link is not correct

3. Book says nothing that points that the Isoko people are one and the same with the Urhobo people.

None of your links stand against the only link I have provided. Now bring a reputable scholarly reference to substantiate your fact or stay quiet. If in your next reply to this message, you are unable to do so. I will have proved to everyone that your argument is false.

fratermathy:


Saying that Isoko is the progenitor of Urhobo has no bearing on this matter! I have earlier asserted that Urhobo is not a language but a cultural indicator. This shouldn't be hard for you to grasp if you are as smart as you pride yourself to be. I have earlier iterated that Urhobo is the umbrella term, as much as Igbo is, that covers several clans and groups such as Uvwie, Okpe, Olomu, Agbon, Abraka, and ISOKO!, among others. This fact is something that is sacrosanct. The Urhobo people migrated from Udo in Benin at various times. The Isoko subdivision may have migrated first and in the course of the migration, other Urhoboid groups met their kinsmen already settled in. This is the case of Agbon that first settled in Irri, then to Isiokolo before further dispersal to Okpara, Kokori, Eku, and then to Ovu. The age of a group or its progenitorial status has no bearing in a people being a part and parcel of a cultural unit. Whether some Urhobo clans came from Isoko, which I dispute, or not, it must be noted that everyone of us are Urhobos! You may have a problem with the term "Urhobo" but it is the truth nonetheless.

Ask yourself this question, which particular group of people are Igbos? Answer: None! Igbo is a cultural and linguistic indicator that comprises groups such as Ohafia, Etche, Ndoni, Ukwuani, Arochukwu, Imo, Ikwerre, Afikpo, etc. Yoruba is a collection of Awori, Ekiti, Ilaje, Igbomina, Okun, etc. Each of these groups share common cultural markers that manifest in all aspects of their life. That is why they are a people! Each of the groups also has a right to dissociate themselves from their cultural markers and appellations but that doesn't negate who they are! So also is the case with Isoko! Denying your Urhoboness has no bearing in the truth!

Quic quic plantatur solo solo cedit!
Whatever is attached to the land belongs to the land!

LordAdam:


Stick to what you know. According to Professor Sagay (SAN), former Head of Law Department of University of Benin, the Isoko lands were conquered by the British after the Urhobo lands. Owe, Oleh, and Ozoro were conquered 1 year after Awolowo was born (the conquest was in 1910, Awolowo was born in 1909). In the link - www.waado.org/nigerdelta/essays/resourcecontrol/sagay.html you will clearly see the professor use "Urhobo and Isoko country"  to signify two separate ethnic groups like he uses the term "Igbo and Ibibio lands" to signify an expanse of land occupied by two distinct ethnic groups.

Now before the grandfather of Owolowo was conceived, each Isoko clan had autonomous rule and after initial disagreements, some clans had covenants with each other. Prominent of which is the Erhowa, Aviara, and Iyede covenant that stands till this day. Even the newer Igboid Isoko clan, Igbide had a convenant with Oyede (Oyede and Iyede are different clans).

There is no recorded history of any such covenants between Urhobo clans. You can see the distinctive nature of the Isoko ideology. When it was time for indigenous groups to be represented in the western Nigeria assembly in 1951, both ethnic groups finally had a voice. Neither of both ethnic groups had a voice before 1951.

The question is that there was no entity, not you thinking there was an indivisible entity called Urhobo of which Isoko was a sub-part. Isoko is politically and ethnically different from the Urhobo people. Take it or leave it. Benin were given three reps, Urhobo 1, and Isoko 1. Distinct groups my friend. Don't chase shadows.

I blame your ignorance of monarchy in the south south on the lackluster nature of our educational system.



After the mass migration from the Bini empire that later formed clans in the Isoko and Urhobo divide, the Oba of Bini led expeditions that caused several kings in either ethnic groups to pledge allegiance to the Bini throne. Monarchs in some parts of Europe at some point made allegiance to the muslim Ottoman empire.

That is no longer the case today. Most of the Monarchs in Isoko do not pay allegiance to the Oba of Bini today.

fratermathy:


Thank you! Mr. LordAdam is arguing what he cannot win!

If not for Awolowo, Isoko would have been as enmeshed in Urhobo as Okpes are. If any Urhoboid group want to claim difference because of linguistic factors, it is even Orogun people who speak Igbo and Urhobo. It is certainly not Isoko people who speak Urhobo and understand Urhobo and their unique variant of it. It is not Isoko who are as Urhoboid as Urhobos are Edoid! The only reason why people dont lay claim to Urhobo being a dialect of Edo is because our language and culture have grown so differently. It is also because of geographical incontiguity further excerbated by the fact the Edos are in a different state from Urhobos. However, in the case of Isokos, nothing of such has occurred! The language is a mutually intelligible pair and the culture is the same and can be seen by all like the teke teke mene upharsin of yore.
Any bitter Isoko dude that argues against this will hit a cul-de-sac! Our people are one and the same and if they dont like this, they should stop bearing Urhobo names, eating Urhobo foods, using Urhobo culture, etc!

Like you also said, Urhobo and Isoko Ovies do pay tributes to the Oba of Benin! Although this is currently waning. Edos see Urhobo/Isoko as its son and a son must bow to its father! Isokos, on the other hand, want to see themselves as an elder brother! Little do they know that their claim cannot be ratified anywhere. They may be ethnically different but as I have always iterated, they are culturally and linguistically Urhobos for all intents and purposes!


LordAdam, pick up a fight you can win! I'd flog you on this one with more facts and figures from scholarly works ad infinitum! I've argued this with people who are far more vocal than you are and they all ran away. Word of advice, I DO NOT GIVE UP!

LordAdam:


Oh please. Isoko is as much an "umbrella term" as Urhobo and Igbo.

The Urhobos have 23 clans. Source - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urhobo_people

The Isoko have 17 clans. Source - ihuanedo.ning.com/m/group/discussion?id=2971192%3ATopic%3A130200

LordAdam:


Your fallacy is outstanding. Two distinct groups of people leave the same place and stay within close proximity to each other, how is it difficult to see that they are bounded by social laws to have languages and culture that would have similarities.

The Isoko people and Urhobo people for the umpteenth time are distinct and are Edoid. THE Isokos have never been and will never be Urhoboid. Awolowo saw the distinctive nature of both ethnic groups and chose to give both groups different representation rather than mistakenly lumped both groups together which may most likely have led to fatal disputes. The man made a smart choice.

fratermathy:


Like I said, we have not even started this argument. Do not let your delusional grandeur deceive you into thinking otherwise. I don't have to state the connotativeness of my words or their semantic implications in other for you to grasp simple facts! The fact that you cannot construe lexical semantics and disambiguate utterances leaves much to marvel at. I employ words like a literati and a scholar, I don't have to take permission or establish a semantic premise before I am understood. In an objective argument, you cite scholars and not websites concocted by apologists for self, vain reasons! Here is another link on Isoko being an Urhoboid dialect:
http://urhobolanguageinstitute.com/imagenes_libros/THE%20%20PEOPLE%20%20WHO%20%20SPEAK%20%20%20URHOBO%20%20LANGUAGE.pdf

Mind you, this brief article is citatable with a known writer other than the blind link you gave. The books I presented to you have various sections on this issue. If you are scholarly inclined, you'd have seen them as I did in less than 10 minutes. Except you do not know how to skim through books and in which case, I'd understand your predicament in acknowledging Isoko's Urhoboness.


Secondly, you still have not answered my question! If you really claim to be intellectually buoyant then present me with convincing facts that Isokos and Urhobos are linguistically and culturally different. Every spectator of this argument knows that I did my part in pointing out obvious similarities that bind Isoko to Urhobo. Until you prove otherwise, I deem you to have lost this argument. !

And for your information, I am a scholar on Urhobo and English literature, language and culture, look at my profile for my last book and google my name. I can authoritatively speak on this matter because I have READ ALL BOOKS on Urhobo people, Isoko people and virtually every group in the Delta and I have written about them in journal articles, magazines, newspapers, books and even here on Nairaland! I have met critics and recalcitrant lots like you and I have never lost out to them. This wont be my first!


You speak of classification! What do you know of language trees and roots? What do you know of philology and diachronic linguistics? Oh please, go and read rather than make vain assertions and bogus claims with delusions of grandeur!

Urhobo and Isoko, going by diachronic linguistics and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of linguistic and cultural relativity, are one and the same people. They originate from a single protoid language of which any of the Dialects could be and their world view has been shaped by their common lingua franca. They are both pairs as much as Esan, Etsako and Afemai are constituents of Edo. Don't argue like an intellectually lame individual Mr LordAdam, argue with concrete and objective facts and figures. Do not let tribalism blind you from the truth.

Do come back when you have beefed up your knowledge. I'm ever ready to flog you in mode, medium and content.

"It
is easy to show that language and culture are not intrinsically associated. Totally unrelated languages share in one culture; closely related languages—even a single language—belong to distinct culture spheres. There are many excellent examples in Aboriginal America. The Athabaskan languages form as clearly unified, as structurally specialized, a group as any that I know of. The speakers of these languages belong to four distinct culture areas... The cultural adaptability of the Athabaskan-speaking peoples is in the strangest contrast to the inaccessibility to foreign influences of the languages themselves."

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

fratermathy:


Everyone knows Professor Sagay is a questionable scholar whose theories have been debunked on numerous occasions by Professors Ekeh, Otite, Darah, Ukoli, and even Dr. Itiveh, Awhefeada, amongst others!
Apart from the lack of integrity in your citation of Prof. Sagay, I'd proceed to further analyse your statements. The use of Igbo and Ibibio has no bearing in the use of Isoko and Urhobo. Even the Angels in Heaven know that Ibibios are not culturally, linguistically, cosmologically, and otherwise, associated with Igbos other than geographical contiguity. However, in Isoko and Urhobo, the opposite is the case as largely argued by me since the genesis of this online altercation.
It is a well known fact that Urhobo as a cultural delineator was not accepted by all its clans and divisions until the establishment of the Urhobo Progress Union, UPU, by Mowoe and his contemporaries. In this establishment, Isokos were originally members! The UPU started to canvass for a singular Urhobo identity devoid of dialectal partisanship. When Otobo won his case in the 50s, Isokos soon formed IDU as a rival to UPU. Even IDU was not formed to match UPU but as a subdivisional socio-cultural body as much as Okpes and Uvwies have theirs! IDU later took a political stance and with the discovery of crude oil, ethnic groups started to squabble amongst themselves! Isokos started to realise that they'd fare better in the "OIL" compensation business if they were ethnically cut off from Urhobos and divisions started! Other Urhobo groups found it difficult to do this because, unlike Isoko, the foundation was not laid down by anyone.
Before the 1950s, Urhobos and Isokos were called Sobos, a largely derogatory term rejected by both since it was a mockery and an anglicised one at that.! By the peak of the 50s, Isokos were simply called Urhobos, the umbrella term for the Edoid groups of the Niger Delta hinterland! Whether Isokos want to accept this or not, it is a sanctimonious fact that cannot be denied! Isoko, like I've always said, may be ethnically different but they are culturally and linguistically Urhoboid! Nothing can be done about this. If it pains you so much then tell your kings to have a meeting and adopt a distinct Isoko cosmology devoid of Urhobo touches!

fratermathy:


You keep saying that Urhobo and Isoko are Edoid and are distinct. Therefore it is safe to say that since they are both Edoid and are linguistically and culturally the same, then their progenitor must have had the same common cultural and linguistic markers? If so, then why do;
1. Isokos and Urhobos call God "Oghene" and Edos dont?
2. Isokos and Urhobos eat "Ukhodo" as native meals and Edos dont?
3. Isokos and Urhobos share names of people, animals, things and places that Edos do not?
4. Isokos and Urhobos share titles of Kings, monarchical lexical items and royal cosmology that Edos dont?
5. Isokos and Urhobos have the same fashion style that Edos dont?

There are more but I have made my point! Urhobos and Isokos are Edoid no doubt! However, they could never have existed as distinct peoples when their Edo progenitor, which ought to be the protoid culture and language, lacks what they both share together. It implies that either Isokos were originally Urhobos who migrated at different times or that Isokos were a different people, most likely Igbos, who learnt Urhobo due to contact and created a unique version of it. In both versions, whether truistically or not, Urhobo remains the protoid culture and language! I am not Urhobo because I speak Urhobo! I am Urhobo because I speak AGBON which is a member of the Urhobo linguistic and cultural cluster. That has and will always remain my argument and premise.
As of this moment, I cant fathom the bearing of your argument because you seem to be strictly on the defensive without any directional premise upon which your argument is anchored and do not tell me your argument is that Isokos are different from Urhobos because that ship has already sailed ages ago when Isoko started speaking, dressing, eating, dancing, and living like Urhobos!

Find your intellectual compass and point it NORTH!

LordAdam:


The use of bogus words does not make you smart. It is often a charade to make a false impression of being intelligent when you are not. The aim of an argument is for there to be firm understanding and there should be premises on which the argument thrives on. Your use of the word ethnicity before I brought up the dictionary meaning of the word were not apparent as connotative. You only made the convenient switch when I caught you with your pants down.

This is an objective argument. I presented you with an article that talked about the major groups in Niger Delta and their links to the Bini empire. The author is not an Isoko person. The author also cites sources that were not written by Isoko people. What then is your basis for calling the article is "concocted by apologists"?

I have made my resolve that you are not worth my effort in this argument. I give you a link with two majorly renowned renowned references. You give me a 2-page pdf file without a single reference and with no author. You are a JOKER.

I gave you a chance to prove your argument with links and you bring a 2-page unverified pdf file. Then you tell me it was written by a "known writer". Really?! How old do you think I am? 12?

You insult my intelligence when you tell me you are an Authority when you have not written a single peer-reviewed publication on the subject, except of course on Nairaland.com where anyone can concoct a fallacy. You say you are an Authority because you have read books? And you cannot cite those books with clearly defined statements by renowned authorities on the subject.

I respect your opinion, but it is a wrong opinion. You are no authority because you are a lecturer. You are just an Urhobo supremacist who thinks he knows so much because he has a wide vocabulary and unsubstantiated claims akin to fairy tales.

Everyone knows Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is a misnomer. Even Sapir-Whorf maintains that

Everyone can see your folly as I have repeatedly tried to point out. When Sapir, who you make reference to maintains that language and culture are not deeply related, who then are you to say they are? Rather than bank on substantiated proof, you reference an unverified hypothesis to make an outrageous statement that two distinct ethnic groups are one and the same? Again I ask, who the hell do you think you are to make such a bold unscrupulous assertion.

Okpe is a clan in Urhobo. Aviarra is a clan in Isoko. It appears that you are the one blinded by tribalism to kick against a fact solidified by experts on the subject and a thriving cultural and political institution. Now this is it from me. Only unintelligent extremists like you will argue otherwise.

I'm done with you. Have a nice day.

fratermathy:



The link I brought asserts that Isoko and Urhobo are members of the same linguistic family. Hasn't that been my argument all along? Are you so lost and blind that you have lost focus of my initial premise.? Tell me, which language is deemed as Urhobo? Even Okpe, Uvwie and lots of others are classified as distinct languages! My premise, to remind your myopic memory, is that these distinct languages belong to the same cluster and cultural appellation known as URHOBO. I refuse the term known as Sobo for its derogatory connotation and the compounded term Urhobo-Isoko may as well be Urhobo-Isoko-Okpe-Uvwie-Abraka-Agbon-Agbarho-Olomu, etc since compounding is your Forte! It is easier to use a term common to all yet owned by none, ergo, the adoption of Urhobo! Isoko is owned as well as the others unlike Urhobo which is peculiar to none.
Instead of you and your people to correct the anomaly and injustice meted against you, you are here arguing to hit a cul-de-sac like Oedipus, the tragic hero. Your hubris shall be your own undoing!

LordAdam:


Even some hypotheses by the mighty Einstein were refuted. Sagay pointed out facts about Urhobo and Isoko people that were held up by other scholars.

You say pre-50's, the Urhobo and Isoko people were called the "Sobo" people. And then you erroneously say by the peak-50's the Isoko people were called Urhobo people. Trying to distort history again.

The election for the Western Nigeria Regional Assembly was held in 1951. An Isoko man, Chief Otobo, representing the Isoko people was elected to the house. And an Urhobo man, Chief Mowarin, representing the Urhobo people was also elected to the house.

Source: ihuanedo.ning.com/m/group/discussion?id=2971192%3ATopic%3A130200

You just reaffirmed my position. You are a joker.

LordAdam:


No. They are not bound to have such. The Isokos as a people do not accept that they are Urhoboid. No clan I know of claims to be a part of Urhobo, why are you forcing this down our throats.

Is it by force. Or are you claiming to be more knowledgeable about our own history and ancestry than the Isoko elders? We have chosen to maintain that we are different and you can't deal with it? As I said earlier, do whatever you like...

Now let me prove your argument false...

1. "Jesu" for Jesus is the same for Urhobo and Isoko, Ijaw, Portuguese
2. Urhobos, Isokos, Esans eat Ogbono soup.
3. Isoko has more unique names for people, places and animals than the appellations they share with Urhobo
4. Isoko has its own unique appellation for royalty, pantheon of gods
5. The Ijaws and Itsekiri in Delta dress like the Urhobos and Isoko.

I dress in suit and tie, does that make me a European? Please, stop being full of yourself. The Isoko and Urhobo people are Edoid, and are distinct groups.

LordAdam:


The same linguistic family. Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian all belong to the Romance language family. Does it mean that the French and Italian are one and the same people. Or the Portuguese and Spanish.

Get a grip. We do not think it is an anomaly. You are like the early European missionaries who said the sub-saharan black Africans did not have a history. You are a disgrace to your people. The Isoko are peaceful towards and different from the Urhobos. Do not dictate to us who you think we are. We know who we are, now get lost with your degree and intellectual hullabaloo.

bigfrancis21:


No because they neither look Igbo nor speak an Igbo dialect!

LordAdam:


The same linguistic family. Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian all belong to the Romance language family. Does it mean that the French and Italian are one and the same people. Or the Portuguese and Spanish.

Get a grip. We do not think it is an anomaly. You are like the early European missionaries who said the sub-saharan black Africans did not have a history. You are a disgrace to your people. The Isoko are peaceful towards and different from the Urhobos. Do not dictate to us who you think we are. We know who we are, now get lost with your degree and intellectual hullabaloo.

airsaylongcon:
fratermathy, leave LordAdam alone. We know when Isokos will start calling their Urhobo brothers

fratermathy:

Even though your arguments have resulted to insultive squabbles directed at my person, I won't give you the pleasure of a counter-insult. Rather, I'd attack your statement one by one as I have always done. By the way, you've still not given me the proof that Urhobos and Isokos are different as I have given you mine! That is a hanging thread you need to bring down. Secondly bogus words are not "concocted for charade" like you claim. When someone reads alot, the person tends to have a wider vocabulary and lexical arsenal to draw upon. That is the case here. I do not invent words, I use words as they come to mind. Maybe you should read more and learn more words rather than attack my choice of words. It is what I do! My use of ethnicity is not ambiguous in any way at all. Maybe to you it is! When one says a people are "ethnically" different yet "culturally and linguistically" the same, a sane mind gets the implicature that culture and language have been exhumed from the usage of the term "ethnically". This is further obviated by my arguments and premise and you cannot tell me that you are sound in intellectual acuity when you cannot deduce, induce, infer and refer statements and their logical ends.


The so-called 2-page unverified article was written by Sir Dr. Anthony Ukere, a pioneer lecturer of the Urhobo Language at Delta State University Abraka and a recognised authority on Urhobo language! In his curricula development of the Urhobo Language Departmental courses, he subsumed Isoko under Urhobo and that is why Isoko is studied by students of Urhobo in DELSU as a dialect and nothing but so! Ukere is recognised in international spheres as an authority and he published the first Urhobo dictionary. Your source, on the other hand, is faceless and ethnocentric. Even the very title of the website is self-explanatory. You cant use such a site in any scholarly works. My citations on this subject matter are numerous. I have given you books and I have more in my library to substantiate my claim. Refer to articles by Felicia Ohwovoriole, Sunny Awhefeada, Peter Omoko, Stephen Kekeghe, Enajite Ojaruega, Ogaga Okuyade, Igho Onose, Macaulay Mowarin, and a host of others for references. I cannot copy and paste printed books here but I'd take the time to snap some pages and shove down your eyes! Once again, I presented you with my own uncooked facts on Urhobo and Isoko homogeneity. What have you done?


You assumed I have not written a peer-reviewed publication? My latest book was a product of a peer reviewed publication on AcademicJournals.org. In fact, I have my own academic journal publication company, OKJOURNALS.ORG, maybe you should access the site. We are currently calling for papers. If you are in doubt as to my ownership of the site, goto whois.sc/okjournals.org and see my name there. It is even on the website! Apart from that, I have 5 academic papers and even more yet to be published. I started writing academic papers the year I became an undergrad. My last book is on Amazon! So you are wrong! Refer to my article on Igbe religion on Vanguard last two weeks, a link of it is on my profile! Vanguard referred to me as an authority on Urhobo culture! Access the wiki page on Urhobo people, my photograph is the representative one there. I do not want to believe you are insecure and that is why you make uncouth statements! In any case, you should make proper RESEARCH before you make statements such as these because it'd expose your lack of intellectual depth, insecurity, and plain silliness.
My articles on Nairaland are a mere pastime. I write here for fun and when I am bored. Most of my articles here are forwarded to Urhobo Voice, UrhoboToday and other dailies as opinions and THEY ALWAYS GET ACCEPTED!!! I dont think you googled my name well enough. I am not a supremacist! I just like stating the facts! A supremacists would attack Isokos! I have not done that in any verbal engagement. I have only stated and maintained that Isoko is a part and parcel of Urhobo nation!


Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has been backed by a myriad of other scholars including the much revered Noam Chomsky! Hence, it'd be an intellectual suicide on your part to claim that Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is a misnomer. It is the sole yardstick used to judge Nigerian languages and their origins. Language dictates culture and vice versa. Take for instance, the French language that has little or no words to express anger and insults! It is a well known fact that the French people are the nicest people in the world when it comes to amity! The French language has more lexical items that connote or denote romance and love and it is a well known fact that French is a standard language of poetry and courtship! It is also a well known fact that American English has one of the highest numbers of curse words! It is only a dunce that would deny that Americans are about the rudest people on Earth! So look beyond the theory, language dictates culture and we know this from our everyday dealings. In Urhobo, for instance, the language has alot of praise words known largely as Odovan! These words are used by age-grades at social gatherings! All true Urhobos and Isokos have an Odovan! This linguistic marker has embedded the system of titular appellation on Urhobos/Isokos. This explains for why Urhobos LOVE TITLES! A typical Urhobo man wants to be known as Chief, Dr, Prof., Sir., etc. Urhobo language has a penchant for argumentation and quarrels beyond normal. This explains why Urhobos love law and litigation. I could go on and on but language as a cultural indicator is a sacrosanct fact that no one can negate. If you think otherwise, prove your case with data as I have done now. You ask me who I am, well, I am not much but I know that I am intellectually sound enough, both in certification and output, to authoritatively speak on some things and this issue is one of them! If you think otherwise, tell us who you are and why you believe you can negate my assertions, that is if you believe you are intellectually buoyant enough to do so.
Urhobo and Isoko being a singular group is no hypothesis that needs testing! It has been tested by its language and culture and even the lay man knows this. Goto Asaba, Agbor and Warri; ask them what they think of Isoko and you'd be amazed that most do not even recognise your so-called ethnic individuality. The average Asaba man calls us "Sobos"! Most call all of us Urhobos! Why all the beckering? Will your Ovie pay you to make your people the minority of minorities? Oh Please!


You cannot be done with me because you have lost out in this argument. You were the one who claimed you were unrivalled in argumentation. Why cower away now? Are you sad I'd keep flogging you like a nursery pupil with facts and figures? All through this altercation you have not presented a single data to buttress your arguments! The only thing you've done is cite an apologetic and unintellectual website! Present me with cogent data and I'd say you have a point to make. For now, you have none and now you shy away like a limp and rabid rabbit.
Okpe and Aviarra are both URHOBO CLANS! Of which one belongs to the Isoko subcluster and another is an autonomous branch of its own. Your tribalism wont change this fact! Your unintellectual and "pupilish" arguments wont change this bare-faced truth. Infact, this fact is like the eyes on your face, it is what you see with. Isokos see the world through the cosmology, which means world-view, of Urhobo ! Changing this fact is tantamount to shooting your maker and running away. There is a reason he is your maker in the first place. No Urhobo can claim not to be of Edo descent! So also with Isoko! You cant claim not to be Urhoboid! Case Closed!!!

You call me an extremist and yet you are the offensive cum defensive one who engaged in tribal and provocative slurs in response to an intellectual fact obviated by everything Isokos do! Even Isoko tribal marks are Urhoboid! Yes! Its as obvious as that.


You can now scamper away or come back with facts and let's finish what you started! Like I said, I NEVER LOSE AN ARGUMENT!

pazienza:


Urhobos don't speak an Igbo dialect, so that question is out of order.

Ukwuanis speak an Igbo dialect intelligible to any Igbo man conversant with Igbo Izugbe.

Igbos never had empires that lorded over Ukwuanis.


Ukwuanis have no record or trace of a dead language that became replaced by Igbo language.

Any rational being will deduce that Ukwuani was Igbo speaking right from the very beginning.

Ukwuani could only be of Bini origin, if some segment of the ancient Bini empire were peopled by an Igbo speaking people, from where the Ukwuanis, Ikas, Ikwerres, Ogbas, etc migrated from.

That is the only logical explanation of the " out of Bini" story these Igbo speaking people are currently peddling, in the absence of a dead Bini language in those areas.

LordAdam:


No. They are not bound to have such. The Isokos as a people do not accept that they are Urhoboid. No clan I know of claims to be a part of Urhobo, why are you forcing this down our throats.

Is it by force. Or are you claiming to be more knowledgeable about our own history and ancestry than the Isoko elders? We have chosen to maintain that we are different and you can't deal with it? As I said earlier, do whatever you like...

Now let me prove your argument false...

1. "Jesu" for Jesus is the same for Urhobo and Isoko, Ijaw, Portuguese
2. Urhobos, Isokos, Esans eat Ogbono soup.
3. Isoko has more unique names for people, places and animals than the appellations they share with Urhobo
4. Isoko has its own unique appellation for royalty, pantheon of gods
5. The Ijaws and Itsekiri in Delta dress like the Urhobos and Isoko.

I dress in suit and tie, does that make me a European? Please, stop being full of yourself. The Isoko and Urhobo people are Edoid, and are distinct groups.