Pilgrim.1,
Have you considered answering the question on the difference between tithes and offerings? Or you cannot afford to answer while you answer other less significant questions profusely?
Are you still in doubt that indeed there is a difference between 10% (specific proportion) and proportion (a range of 0.00001[or less] to 99.99999[or more but not 100%])?

@anonimi,

anonimi:

Pilgrim.1,
Have you considered answering the question on the difference between tithes and offerings? Or you cannot afford to answer while you answer other less significant questions profusely?

I'm not aware that it is a crime to choose to either answer or not answer: unless you want to bend my neck to please you by all means. I was developing this matter logically in detail and will come back to attend upon it when the time comes.

If you cannot be patient and must demand an answer immediately, I wonder why you have not tried to answer sleekymag's questions even after he reminded you. Why is it that when questions are offered to you and our friends opposing tithes, you never seek to proffer any; but rather you are too much in a hurry to demand others to answer yours?

I think my answer to that has been often repeated, but I grant you just a concise quip where you cannot wait for that: there is a difference between tithes and offerings, and already we see the mention of it in Malachi 3:8. I have discussed this earlier and demonstrated why the Christian is not tithing under obligation to fulfill Judaism.

So, what essential difference is there?

For one, I don't settle the definition and meaning of tithes the traditional way it has been proffered by so many people. Tithes include 10%; but it is not 10% in every single case in the Bible. They are a certain, stipulated percentage of ("in proportion to" some income. The moment you leave the idea of "just give" (which is not saying anything at all) and then make a determined commitment to "set aside in proportion to" what you earn, brother you're not speaking merely of offering but of tithes. The problem with many people is that they remain on the idea of "10%" every single time, and so cannot see the other instances already outlined. Please refer to the relevant places where I pointed that out.

On the other hand, our offerings apply to special ministrations in the Church. Some call it "love offering", others call it any other term (donations, contributions, firstfruits, gifts, and all sorts of terms that are often not found in the NT); some even don't distinguish between any one of these cases and yet they still come back to acquiesce thereto. I have also asked those using these terms to please show them from the NT; and rather than show us, they excused that request in a rather reactionary way.

anonimi:

Are you still in doubt that indeed there is a difference between 10% (specific proportion) and proportion (a range of 0.00001[or less] to 99.99999[or more but not 100%])?

If you are making tithes (10%) a matter of "specific proportion", is 23.3% not a specific proportion as well as 12%, 15% and 40%?!? What is so "specific" about 10 that makes 12, 15 or 20 to be any less specific?

Even what you call "a range" also includes 10 as long as it is a figure between 0 and 99. I think just for the sake of an undefined and uncertain idea, you are still confusing issues for yourself. If you gave 10% within the range of 0 to 99, is your 10 in that range not still the same 10 that you disdain? What really is the substance of your argument here?

Regards.

The issue of TITHE is not complicated at all. The only problem is that most of us do not even know where we came from. The first person to give a tithe from records was Abraham. Father of faith is not just a title for this man Abraham, God specifically promised that it is through this same man that he will bless all the earth (covenant) which God does not break. (You may need to read the whole Abraham story again). Abraham's, faith, The tithe, the covenant and the blessings must go together. we are all children of Abraham by faith and once your faith can conceive that you are entitled to be a beneficiary of the covenant which must be by faith (no wonder without faith it is impossible to please God), then TITHE is a compulsary part of what gives you access to all the blessing in that covenant (here tithe is also a substance), remember faith is the substance of things hoped for but the evidence othings not seen). Play your part by presenting your own substance, it is not negotiable in this covenant. then let God play His part which he stated in malachi 10. If you study you bible well, you will discover that that blessing of tithing in malachi 10 was visible in the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and many others so much so that even in odd seasons they were always prosperous or do you think the story of these men, their wealth, riches, health, influence, do you think they are fairy tales?,

Where're the references to tithes in the New Covenant?
.

Sir Bible is better read with the help of the Holy spirit, do you think the role of this Part of God is a joke. it is amazing when christians ask certain funny question which tends to say that they take bible for a mere literature. Do you not know that there is no new covenant or testament without the old. I am not talking about the stories (that is the normal every day lives of the people either in the old or new) we are talking about the specific covenant which God made carefully with specific people. lets see these two testament in the light of the covenant not the usual events and you will discover that the new covenant is a continuation olf the old the only difference is that the promise of the old took place in the new, infact the future of planet earth in Revelations is a reminder in most cases of what has already been told to the prophet of the old covenant. Finally old does not mean useless but simply put "IN THE OLD GOD TALKED ABOUT AND PREPARE PEOPLE FOR THE PERSON OF THE COVENANT (JESUS) AND IN THE NEW HE GAVE THE PERSON OF THE COVENAT. NOT THE COVENANT OR TESTAMENT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS. Simple.

You, Sir, are talking bull. This last response is Sarah Palin-ish; why punish your readers so.
.

1) No one should be compelled to tithe
2) Tithing or not tithing has nothing to do with eternal life in Christ Jesus
3) Tithing is a wisdom of God for the benefit of 'whosoever believeth' to practically express their faith and in so doing rule their world
4) It is by choice powered by wisdom and based on faith.
5) I highly recommend it
6) My family practice it consistently
7) I have proved God faithful by tithing. There has never been and never will be any reason for anyone to pity or say sorry to us. People give us unusual gifts all the time from all over the world not because we don't have, but because the heavens are open on us.

Church business on the one hand is the exploitation of a peoples misplaced and exaggerated spirituality, borne out of the hardships they are facing and the baseless fear of the unknown. Operators of this business have a simple task of continuously orchestrating the peoples helplessness and gullibility to such issues as ill health, poverty and unemployment (which are all outcomes of a failure of leadership in the country) to remain in business. Quite Simple

CICERO, I quite agree with you. For those of us who have agreed in faith to be a part of tithing we can prove that it works. I dont lack via tithing. So for one am a living withness that tithing works. tested and trusted. And it is worthy of note that our tithe are giving in obedience to God's instruction. I am less bothered about if anyone is turning it to a business or enriching himself by it. I GIVE MY TITHE SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD SAID SO AND I AM CONVINCED and I have not stopped because the part God said he will play when I tithe, I see him do it.

tithe does not have to do with money alone, it goes beyond that it involves even our time, and all that life entails.
Am not saying you should not give for the work of the Lord.
The people preaching about tithe do they pay their tithes too. Churches themselves are supposed to pay tithes to i.e to the '"POOR MEMBERS IN THE CHURCH""

kanayo74:

The people preaching about tithe do they pay their tithes too.

Would they have been shy to say that they do so if they were not doing so?

Tithe is the one-tenth of your increase;

it’s the percent of your income

and anything else God blesses you with,

it’s a commitment which every child of God


should faithfully observe

In a way your tithe is the surest ways

to experience prosperity in the kingdom of God

Pepeye:

Tithe is the one-tenth of your increase;

it’s the percent of your income

and anything else God blesses you with,

it’s a commitment which every child of God


should faithfully observe

In a way your tithe is the surest ways

to experience prosperity in the kingdom of God

Great stuff. However, let's be fair and clear to our brethren:

I'm glad to read a very crucial element about tithing in yours: "commitment". Whatever percentage one sets aside, the real test is whether they know that experience in a very real way - consistently, commitedly, and lovingly.

Second, I don't know - and I can't affirm what I don't know doctrinally or by experience. But I'm not so sure if tithes are the "surest ways" to experience prosperity in the kingdom of God. The answers are varied, because prosperity comes in various ways and is a relative word; as well, God in His sovereignty has blessed some people in real prosperous ways who have been in very difficult circumstances in service (of those I know, I can't say for certain if they were tithers). However, I have seen people in very prosperous ministries and lives who do not emphasize tithes - rather, their emphasis are righteousness and holiness: they have maintained that very emphasis, and remarkably, God has proven His blessings in extra-ordinary ways in their lives.

Blessings.

fuc.k tithe and the pastor that demands it!!

Kanayo74, good but in that last part, No. Tithe cannot be PAID to poor members of the church BUT If the spiritual head discovers he needs to spend it on them well he can. So we are to pay/give it to God through his ministers to us and the ministers are to use as led including meeting needs especially of ministers too. INFACT IT'S JUST THAT WE HUMANS ARE MISBEHAVING AND GREEDY, tithe is actually meant first to support God's ministers (LEVITES - clan of levi, besides the priest) if you read the bible you will discover the type of assignment God gave to them and you will agree strongly that God is a master planner. Most important thing is that we pay in our own part in obedience to God because like Evangelism, tithe is also a strict command.

Hi @ohije,

You know what? It's great that you feel led to tithe, as you desire. However, I believe that the reason why many people are really concerned and consequently disdain this ministry is because some of us are presenting the subject on a very shaky foundation. Let me show you a few:

ohije:

Most important thing is that we pay in our own part in obedience to God because like Evangelism, tithe is also a strict command.

Well, if someone who is seeking to know God's Word asks for any reference to tithes for the Christian as a "strict command", where shall we point them? Certainly, you can't point them to the practice of Judaism under the Law which was being mediated by the Levitical priesthood. Why? Because we are not Jews, and we cannot claim to be Levites - not at all.

The one thing we can do is share simply that there is no "strict command" to tithe in the NT. None. But why do some of us tithe then? Because we understand that God does not force it upon His children as a compulsion, but draws their hearts by faith to respond to that ministry. In many instances where we read in the NT about God's command, ordinance, and instruction on giving, He still wants us to know that we approach Him with free spirits and not under any compulsion thereto. Both in the OT and NT, what's the point of someone bringing anything for His service under a grudge? So, while we may be persuaded to tithe, let's share this truth with understanding for some of our brethren who may not understand what we mean.

ohije:

INFACT IT'S JUST THAT WE HUMANS ARE MISBEHAVING AND GREEDY,

That's true; but we can begin to change our postures and do the right thing.

Regards.

Pilgrim.1, Thanks that is a good and very matured response. When I say Levites (today a Levite is that man or woman who is not your pastor but works full/part time with the church eg office assistants and secretary to pastors, dispatch riders and paid cleaners/decorator etc - these people ought to be paid from tithe). Same way we call the ministers pastors but in those days, they are called the priest, pharisee etc. Most of us enter into a clean neat church with everything set every sunday, most churches has paid employees responsible for creating the good atmospere we enjoy. I once worked as one and that was how I was able to save some money to fund part of my bill when I gained admission. Finally its a command with a blessing attached BUT NOT FORCEFULL AT ALL.

ohije:

Pilgrim.1, Thanks that is a good and very matured response. When I say Levites (today a Levite is that man or woman who is not your pastor but works full/part time with the church eg office assistants and secretary to pastors, dispatch riders and paid cleaners/decorator etc - these people ought to be paid from tithe). Same way we call the ministers pastors but in those days, they are called the priest, pharisee etc. Most of us enter into a clean neat church with everything set every sunday, most churches has paid employees responsible for creating the good atmospere we enjoy. I once worked as one and that was how I was able to save some money to fund part of my bill when I gained admission. Finally its a command with a blessing attached BUT NOT FORCEFULL AT ALL.

No matter what lame excuses and irrational reasoning you use to justify the unjustifiable tithing is not part of christianity and that is why the Apostles or Jesus Christ himself never taught their follwers. If tithes is meant to pay church workers salaries i wonder what all the other various offerings collected are meant for.

KunleOshob:

No matter what lame excuses and irrational reasoning you use to justify the unjustifiable tithing is not part of christianity and that is why the Apostles or Jesus Christ himself never taught their follwers. If tithes is meant to pay church workers salaries i wonder what all the other various offerings collected are meant for.

@KunleOshob,

Good morning. You see this ministry can be accommodated both ways - whether for or against.

Just as there is no explicit verse condemning tithes for the Christian, so there does not appear to be any verse explicitly demanding it from Christians. This does not mean therefore that tithes are a false teaching in the Church - the only thing one could say is that so many people teach it on untenable basis, just as so many people condemn it unjustifiably.

However, no one can argue that other matters of the Law under the Levitical priesthood are dubitable in the NT. For instance, we know that the NT expressly says that Christians are not to seek --

● circumcision by the Law (1 Cor. 7:19); or. .

● observe the sabbath by the Law (Col. 2:16); or. .

● observe Jewish feasts by the Law (Heb. 13:9); or even. .

● observe ceremonial washings by the Law (Heb. 9:10).

These are all matters of the old covenant under the Levitical priesthood which are clearly and specifically spelt out in the NT as not applicable to Christians. Infact, nothing could be more explicit in the case of circumcision than we find in Galatians 5:2 - "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing". In like manner, you will never find any statement against tithes in the NT, or the entire Bible condemning tithes - not one!!

Every time you think about condemning tithes and talk just about anyhow on the subject, please first find that verse that explicitly condemns it. This excuse that the Lord Jesus never taught it or the apostles never taught it is a naked lie! To continue to shlepp that false assertion may be the reason why those who condemn tithes are too embarrassed to answer the one question I have asked again and again about Hebrews 7:8 - who is HE that recieves tithes there based on the fact that He lives perpetually? Before you assume that nobody in the NT ever taught anything about tithes, have the grace to answer that question to your heart - it won't hurt your health.

Come to think of it, I wonder if those who fight against tithes can put their mouth where their pockets are. If God asked His people under the old covenant to give just 1 out of 10, are we as Christians under the new covenant to be careless with this matter? Those who were under the levitical priesthood were committed in giving just 1 out of 10; and yet we Christians make so much noise and are too challenged to be committed to give even 2 out of that 10? Yet, we make so much noise about being partakers of the new covenant that is "more glorious" than the old covenant! If you really want to enjoy the power of the new covenant, stop talking cheap - do the one thing that will challenge your mouth: give just 3 out of 10 and let's see how your talk of "cheerful giving" turns out in just 6 months!

We know as Christians that the new covenant is much more glorious than the old covenant, not so? "How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?. . . by reason of the glory that excelleth" (2 Cor. 3:8-10) It is easy to complain against 1 out of 10 - but since we live in a more glorious covenant, encourage yourself to honestly set aside something "far glorious" than 1 . . go on and give 5 out of 10! Talk is cheap. Many people who argue against tithes for no reason they find in the NT are the ones who make so much noise and will give nothing!

The people under the old covenant gave tithes and offerings - How? Like this:

-- dedicatedly,

-- committedly,

-- consistently,

-- cheerfully!

For all that, they gave just 1 out of 10. You who live under the new and more glorious covenant, stop complaining and put your mouth into some action: follow on and set aside just 3 or 5 out of 10 with the same attitude:

-- dedicatedly,

-- committedly,

-- consistently,

-- cheerfully!

Come back and tell us how good you felt! We can sit here and argue all day long against just this 1 out of 10 - but that is not what life is about. The real deal is when we go beyond that 1 and surpass our arguments by practically living as people who know the power of the new covenant in its glory as exceeding the old! Do it today, and you will never regret it.

Bless you, bros.

pilgrim aw u dey?

I now spend my time in the family, romance, food sections
but I'll pop in now and then

Take kia

@Pilgrim.1
A ususal you have said nothing new As we all know tithing from income is a mordern day invention because it is a known fact that biblical tithes was never paid from income, it was always from agricultural produce and the only reason God ordained tithes for levites was clearly stated in the bible being that"they have no property/inheritance of their own" and they were not allowed to work. This reasons don't exist today, and if any pastor wants to equate pastors to levites then he must be ready to give up his right to own property and work elsewhere to generate further income. You keep on refering to Hebrews 7:8 which was just a reference and not an injunction but you always forget to mention Hebrews 7 :12 which in unmistakeble terms anulled the tithes that was being refered to in the previous verses. instead you run around in circlees and try to explain it in uncertain terms when the bible is already explicit on it. The new convenant as absolutely nothing to do with giving to the church, the several times Jesus preached about giving was always giving to the poor and the needy the only time he commented on giving to the church was when he spoke about the widow's mite. the emphasis of jesus preaching of giving to the poor should direct us as christians were the emphasis of our giving should be directed. However this is not to say we should not give to the church. While christianity did not single out tithing for condemnation it was condenmed collectively with all the other 613 Mosaic laws Have ever asked your self why it is only tithes that is being dug up out of all these obsolete laws the answer is in this verse 2 Peter 2:3:
3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

@affee,

affee:

pilgrim aw u dey?

I now spend my time in the family, romance, food sections
but I'll pop in now and then

Take kia

Bo my sis, I just dey. I'll try to migrate come join U der one of these days. I trust say you dey enjoy. Take care - Jesus is Lord.

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@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
A ususal you have said nothing new As we all know tithing from icome is a mordern day invent because it is a known fact that biblical tithes was never paid from income, it was always from agricultural produce and the only reason God ordained tithes for levites was clearly stated in the bible being that"they hae no property of their own" and they were not allowed to work. This reasons don't exist today, and if any pastor wants to equate pastors to levites then he must be ready to give up his right to own property and work elsewhere to generate further income.

Take style find me the verse where God ever condemned tithes now. .  please save all this yanga and fine me that verse! You guys are just tootling and twaddling about this issue because you know there's not a single verse for your assertions that it was ever negated in the Bible. Not one. You can't be using your excuses to doodle around that simple request.

KunleOshob:

You keep on refering to Hebrews 7:8 which was just a reference and not an injunction

That is not an answer to my question about that verse. If you are too embarrassed to answer that simple question, you're not alone - your Ph.D adulators still make the same excuses and yet scuttle round that simple question. As long as you keep projecting these exculpations and never answer that question, your long-drawn out excuses will never rise above complaints - and we all know that a complaint is not an answer.

KunleOshob:

but you always forget to mention Hebrews 7 :12 which in unmistakeble terms anulled the tithes that was being refered to in the previous verses.

Wayo!  Hebrews 7:12 does not negate tithes - that is why you will never be able to answer the question on Hebrews 7:8! Verse 12 is in reference to verse 11 (for under the Levitical priesthood, the people received the Law); and those verses did not say that TITHES are therefore cancelled! It never said so, and to keep dribbling that idea in is to play your game unfairly.

If you assume all the law is done with and buried and there's no part of the Law in your life as a Christian, then please go over and answer my question on Romans 3:39 --  "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law".

There are about 22 simple questions in my rejoinders to help you guys think carefully about this - at least, Kunle, you try answer some. Others pretended they never saw them - and that was why I have left these two: (a) WHO receives tithes in Hebrews 7:8 on the fact that He lives perpetually? and (b) what does Romans 3:39 say in regards to your idea that the Law is "dead and buried"? Sorry bro, it was you who were dead and buried - not the Law (see Romans 7:4 - "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ".

The serious problem that has always confused antagonists to tithes is that they always start arguing about the Law in such a way that they have no clues to; that is why they treat it in the very opposite way that it is treated in the Bible!

This has been the reason why I allowed you guys to keep playing this game for so long until sleekymag invited us to answer some questions about the Law. Not one time did the Bible ever treat the Law as "dead and buried", Kunle - and that has been your biggest mistake! Rather, YOU are the one who was dead and buried - that you as a Christian might be able to live the life of Christ in you. And again, I am the one who died and was buried, not the Law (Galatians 2:19 - "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. ". The collective testimony of Scripture is that "the law is spiritual" (Rom. 7:14); and that which was spiritual was not dead and buried - rather, it is you and me who were dead!

My dear Kunle, make I cool down. I understand that you have been generalizing these issues and arriving at the very opposite of what Scripture says. I was once there - but had a change of mind and heart when I saw my mistakes. What happened in Christ's vicarious sacrifice on the Cross for us with respect to the Law are these:

         -- abolishing the 'the enmity'
            "even the law of commandments contained in ordinances"
            [Ephesians 2:15]

         -- blotting out "the handwriting of ordinances that was against us"
             [Colossians 2:14]

He never "killed" or "buried" the Law itself - that is why Romans 3:39 continues to be enigmatic to so many Christians ("yea, we establish the law". Why? For the simple reason that -

       ●  the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4)

       ●  we might know how that God has written His Law on our hearts (Heb. 8:10; 10:16)

That is why you cannot throw the Law overboard as many do. As long as they continue to do so, they will continue to get so confused about what Hebrews 7:11-12 is teaching, and they will skip the inconvenient truth of Heb. 7:8!!

Kunle, cool down and answer that question I asked earlier: WHO is He that receives tithes on the fact that He lives PERPETUALLY (Heb. 7:8)?

Nothing is mentioned in Scripture as a matter of "just a reference" - that is some funny shakara of lazy thinkers!  It was mentioned there deliberately after thrice mentioning that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (Heb. 7:2, 4 & 6)! Verse 8 is not "just a reference" and was put there - most probably for modern day tithe-opposers! That is why they will always duck that inconvenient truth with a million excuses and apologies!

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

instead yourun around in circlees and try to explain it in uncertain terms when the bible is already explicit on it.

Where is the EXPLICIT verse that condemns tithes, Kunle? 

KunleOshob:

The new convenant as absolutely nothing to do with giving to the church,

Okay, I don hear. I knew that would be a challenge to you - that's why I said that it seems to me that opposers to tithes would make so much noise and yet give nothing! Are you not in the new covenant? So, that new covenant has "nothing"  to do with giving to the church? I'm learning new excuses today!

KunleOshob:

the several times Jesus preached about giving was always giving to the poor and the needy the only time he commented on giving to the church was when he spoke about the widow's mite.

Now-now, bros, cool down. At the time when the event of the widow's mite was mentioned in Scripture (Luke 21:2 and Mark 12:42), the Church had not come into existence! There was no reference there about the Church, if you guys would like to be that honest! If I had used Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 to speak of where Jesus mentioned tithes positively, you would wage war and lecture me about the Old Covenant!  Where did you see Church in the widow's mites? Are you not now reading your own eisegesis into the text?

KunleOshob:

the emphasis of jesus preaching of giving to the poor should direct us as christians were the emphasis of our giving should be directed. However this is not to say we should not give to the church.

This guy. . . what are you really up to? Did you not say that the New Covenant had nothing to do with giving in Church? Wetin dey happen?

KunleOshob:

While christianity did not single out tithing for condemnation it was condenmed collectively with all the other 613 Mosaic laws

Hahaha!!   You are very, very funny! It was condemned "collectively" with ALL the other 613 laws, abi? My brother, wait let me show you part of those 613 Laws that you are condemning collectively:

       ●  "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
           and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" ---------
           [NT - Matt. 22:37 ↔  OT Deut. 6:5]

       ●  "Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)"
           [NT - Eph. 6:2 ↔  OT Exo. 20:12]
           -- see also Matt. 19:19 

       ●  "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
           [NT - Matt. 22:39 ↔  OT Lev. 19:18]

Of course, there are many more in the NT - and by giving you those 3, I have helped you to bring it down from 613 to 610. Could you now tell me that the 3 above were also part of all the other 619 that were condemned collectively? This una shakara about the Law that you have no clues to! "Condemned collectively". . . you try!  Come back with another excuse and let's see what remains of your 619 "collective laws". You just hear something from somebody, and you never take the time to check whether that person is correct or misleading you! Then you just hold unto that misrepresented tradition and keep making noise with it. Kunle, time to wake up - those guys are deceiving you; and if I didn't care enough, I wouldn't even point these things out to you.

KunleOshob:

Have ever asked your self why it is only tithes that is being dug up out of all these obsolete laws the answer is in this verse 2 Peter 2:3:
3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

Lol, I'm gald you mentioned that - but go and check and see that Peter was not using tithes there as the basis for "merchandise" - never. The reality that will hit you guys is coming. . . just be patient, because those who are actually making merchandise of believers are not even using tithes that much for their filthy lucre games. We shall get there by and by, and then I shall show you what exactly those fellows are doing. You worry about 1 out of 10. . . get ready: after I show you how you have been duped, you will not show your face around with this noise against tithes.

Enjoy.

@pilgrim.1
I won't bother writing a point by point response to your post as we both know that tithing as no place in christian doctrine (some people including yourself are just trying to force it in) Christs teachings and the apostles teachings are crystal clear and TITHES was never even remotely included or suggested. We also know that today's version of tithes is alien to biblical tithes. Christs teachings on giving is also crystal clear. Let me correct myself on the issue f the laws: Jesus condensed the law into two laws which are love to God and love to our fellow man. paul also tells us in the book of 2 corithians 3:3 that the law is written in our hearts which in effect means our conscience. Now as a christian what should determine law for us should be cleared under the summary of law christ gave us. So how does this bear on tithes or giving to the church/temple? Some people claim it is becos of their love for God that they tithe, but this is contrary to the teachings of christ on giving to God found in the book of matthew 25:35-40:
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’

In summary if you truly desire to give to God as a christian based on the teachings of christ, the poor and the needy comes first. after that you can consider the church. (remember offerings in the early churchwas not a regular occurence and was usually targetted towards a psecific requirement)

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim.1
I won't bother writing a point by point response to your post

Actually, I don't mind any which way you choose to post your replies, whether point by point or concisely addressing just a few highlights that caught your interest. However, my observations are that:

(a) you guys who oppose tithes are never able to answer simple questions

(b) you have never been able to find a single verse for your assertions

(c) it has become the norm to make excuses and never directly deal with an issue

(d) you confuse yourselves by your assertions, and when they are pointed out,
you have never come back to refer to that same point and just abandon it
altogether.

These are not allegations, but facts. That is why I don't try to evade any point in those posted by opposers - I address them point-by-point, deal directly with your objections, go back to scripture for clear and undeniable references. . . and then I leave very few simple questions - which up until now have been largely ignored by our friends who argue so against this subject (although I must acknowledge that you are the only person so far that has honestly attempted to provide some answers to some of those questins). This is not a matter about my rejoinders - but even when sleekymag posted some questions he enquired about and consequently both invited and reminded a few of our friends who oppose tithes, we no see their breaklight again! It was not even as if he posted them categorically to trip our friends - for he opened the question to both tithers and non-tithers alike!

Anyway,. . .

KunleOshob:

as we both know that tithing as no place in christian doctrine

You have never been able to show that as a fact other than the evasive exculpations you have continued to hold on shaky and questionable grounds. Whenever you make these assertions and I ask for the verses directly, you grit and never provide one - but when I provide a few pointers, you never seek to address them directly.

KunleOshob:

(some people including yourself are just trying to force it in) Christs teachings and the apostles teachings are crystal clear and TITHES was never even remotely included or suggested.

Then please calm down and answer my simple question on Hebrews 7:8 - WHO is HE that "recieves tithes" on the fact that He lives PERPETUALLY? Just please answer that question honestly - WHO is HE?

You keep sweating to deny these clear pointers but are never able to honestly bring yourself round to submit a simple answer. The problem you have with this subject will continue to be manifest until you calm down and understand the issue of the Law as treated in the NT. Because many people have always started off on a fausse patte (false foot) about the Law, that is why they make so much noise about 619 Laws, the Law being "dead and buried", and the "collective condemnation" that they see in Scripture where such things do not exist!

Our problem, Kunle, is that we bought into these excuses from those men for far tooooo long - and so many people have been trying so hard to "protect" this tradition without seeking to correct their ideas from God's Word. Me, I have no such problem again, because I dealt with my opposition to tithes long ago and stopped legislating for God to condemn what He never once condemned! That is why when I ask for just one verse where He condemned tithes, opposers never find that verse at any single time! Why? Because they're playing "God" and reading their own vexations into the Word.

KunleOshob:

We also know that today's version of tithes is alien to biblical tithes.

We also know that today's "collective condemnation" of tithes is even more alien.

KunleOshob:

Christs teachings on giving is also crystal clear. Let me correct myself on the issue f the laws: Jesus condensed the law into two laws which are love to God and love to our fellow man. paul also tells us in the book of 2 corithians 3:3 that the law is written in our hearts which in effect means our conscience. Now as a christian what should determine law for us should be cleared under the summary of law christ gave us. So how does this bear on tithes or giving to the church/temple? Some people claim it is because of their love for God that they tithe, but this is contrary to the teachings of christ on giving to God found in the book of matthew 25:35-40:

Let's first deal with your worry above. The Lord Jesus did not "condense" the Law at any time - although He said that on those "two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" [Matthew 22:40], let us not continue to make this same mistake about any "condensing" of the Law. He also mentioned "the prophets" - does that mean He condensed them as well?

Although He spoke of loving God and man as being the foundation upon which all matters of the Law and the prophets were based, He did not by that mean that we should ignore the Law. That God wrote the Law upon our hearts should make us think carefully as to where He ever wrote upon our hearts that He has 'collectively condemned' tithes? Why do people like to legislate for God about things He never committed to their jurisprudence to condemn? Why do people play "God" and make such assertions when they know that there is not a single verse to show where God ever condemned tithes?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

In summary if you truly desire to give to God as a christian based on the teachings of christ, the poor and the needy comes first.

Wrong - giving to God does not place a human being first! Go and study your Bible carefully! Let me help you notice what comes first before any other:

       ●   Mark 12:42-44
            a widow gave "all her living" - to who: the poor?

       ●   2 Corinthians 8:5
            the Corinthians first gave themselves - to who: the poor?

       ●   Leviticus 27:30
            what is the principle there - does the tithes there belong
            to man or to God?

What you don't understand here is that this ministry of giving is not first and foremost to any man. The moment you take that turn, you will never see the true meaning of one's tithes or giving - and that is why you will always have a problem with pastors and ministers. See the example of the widow and notice 3 things the Lord saw in her:

       ●   she did not give 10% - she gave everything!

       ●   she was poor, but that was not her real motive

       ●   she was not motivated by "give to the poor", but rather
            sought first and foremost to present her gift to GOD.

It was not the how much in our hands we dole out, but how true our devotions are to God! There is a place for giving to the poor - but that only makes meaning when we first understand what it means to God. If the people under the old covenant were cautioned to never treat the tithes as an unholy thing (Numbers 18:32 and Leviticus 22:15), are we to drive rough anyhow with our mouths and ridicule it with all these "collectively condemned" that God never once hinted in Scripture? Dear Kunle, Biblical giving is always first to God and then to man, not the other way round - just as loving God comes first before loving man! there is a place for each, and the second never takes the place of the first!

KunleOshob:

after that you can consider the church. (remember offerings in the early churchwas not a regular occurence and was usually targetted towards a psecific requirement)

I remember early Church giving - things happened spontaneously in many instances that necessitated a good teaching of the disciples. This is why we find that the apostles never once treated tithes with disdain or caricature. . . they did not force it on anyone, did not mention any specific % (we know tithes in the OT is not only 10%), did not condemn it in any way (even though they were specific about circumcision, sabbaths, ceremonial washings, meats and drinks, etc). After all these, they did not keep silence about it at all - and that is why it is not by coincidence that it appears in Hebrews 7:8 in relation to the One who "receives" tithes because He lives perpetually!

Many blessings.

CICERO, I quite agree with you. For those of us who have agreed in faith to be a part of tithing we can prove that it works. I don't lack via tithing. So for one am a living withness that tithing works. tested and trusted. And it is worthy of note that our tithe are giving in obedience to God's instruction. I am less bothered about if anyone is turning it to a business or enriching himself by it. I GIVE MY TITHE SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD SAID SO AND I AM CONVINCED and I have not stopped because the part God said he will play when I tithe, I see him do it.

Ohije you are right, it is no longer our business what happens to the tithes and offerings after it goes into the storehouse.
This is where most people miss it.

One thing we also do is we pray and speak God's promises over our tithe at home before handing it over and after that we watch what we let out of our mouths.
Oh God is faithful. If you can see it in His Word and believe it, He will perform it.

I am forever grateful that I belong to the great army of consistent tithers. By doing in faith with our income what the mind of man ordinarily opposes, we have cheaply subdued and enslaved money.

cicero:

Ohije you are right, it is no longer our business what happens to the tithes and offerings after it goes into the storehouse.
This is where most people miss it.

Bros, thank you very largely. Maybe the reason why many people miss it are based on two things:

● the abuses by men who handle our gifts (not every church abuses God's gifts)

● the carelessness of those of us who give (though, not every Christian is careles about this)

Before the birth of Christ, men in the OT actually abused the tithes and offerings that people gave to honour God. It was not different during the earthly ministry of Christ, as by that time the Pharisees and leaders of the people have moved their monery-changers' tables into the temple and started commercializng Judaism (John 2:12-16). After the Church had been established, we find men also abusing this gifts - so that the apostles warned that we should watch out for those who go into ministry for filthy lucre's sake (Titus 1:11).

In all these things, should we be discouraged to give at all? The complaints will never grow thin - they will increase. But even though men were abusing the gifts and offerings in tithes of the people of God during the earthly ministry of Christ, there was a poor widow who did not complain or get discouraged by the abuses - she went quietly to the Treasury, gave her two mites without joining in the debate, and as quietly walked away. What did the Lord Jesus see and react to? "Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all" (Luke 21:3). Just imagine if she had been bogged down by men who made so much noise about tithes and taxes (eg., Matt. 22:16-22) - would she even have been encouraged to dole out anything, even when she was that much in need?

May God help us see what many of us don't see in His Word.

@pilgrim.1
i don't know why you keep asking for a single verse that condens tithing in the new testament when i have already given you two. NO matter how much you want to deny it Hebrews 7: 12& 18 clearly anull and condenm tithes. It is very instructive that this condenmation comes immediately after the verse 8 which you have allowed to confuse you. Yes an example was given in verse 8 comparing Jesus christ to Melchidezek, but the practise of tithing was not even remotely suggested. That reference was just to demonstrate to the hebrew people the superiority of Christ over Abraham. So stop confusing issues. I suggest you go and read the passage again then answer which comandment was described as weak and useless in verse 18 and which law was set aside in verse 12. The answer lies clearly in verse 5 which mentions the specific commandment being anulled.